What Type of Steel is This?

The destructive testing only verifies the hardware as meeting the grade standard, it technically does not identify the bolt as counterfeit. When counterfeits are discovered, the bolt marking pattern that claimed it to be a higher grade now gets listed as suspected counterfeit markings.

One particulary difficult client is a hobby shop

It sounds like you are buying in small qty's from various sources?... if you could procure from Distributors you would have a better chance at this...

What you really need are the Material Cert's - with those - you are Gold!

I better explain what I do. I push paper . I'm a customs broker who declares cargo and prepares the customs paper work for all kinds of clients. My main task is determining the correct tariff number for imported goods. In the case of screws, because of China dumping screws into the North american Market, I must know the exact dimensions (length and diameter), the type of head, and the exact material of manufacture. The dimensions are usually on the invoice or on the suppliers web-site, the head type I can determine from the pictures on the web sites, the material is never given beyond just the basic metal, steel or brass etc. I need to know more about the type of steel, stainless, carbon, alloy or non-alloy. For example some steel screws from Taiwan are subject to over 170% duty but if they are stainless steel no duty applies. My customers never seem to know and it takes a lot of time to call the supplier in every case. This tends to irritate truck drivers waiting at the border and client waiting for delivery. I can quickly find pictures of my problem articles on the net and was wondering if it was possible to determine the type of steel within the categories given just from a picture?

As a last resort, if you guys had to guess, what type of steel would be used to make those black screws used in model building?

I'm sorry I forgot to include the word carbon. Low to medium grade carbon steel bolts are what one should nominally assume for unmarked bolts. (My link does show that.)

Why can't you ask whomever is supplying the invoice to add the extra information you need to the invoice. Once they get in the habit of providing this information on the invoice it will become second nature to them and make your job much easier.

My guess is hardened steel. The heat treating process would leave them this color.

I do not believe they would be stainless steel.

Milo is the authority around here for metals.

If you quickly want to check whether they are stainless or not (real stainless that is) - try a magnet on them

Magnets are attracted to certain types of stainless steel. Not to others.

Could I suggest you get several catalogues from different fastener suppliers in Canada & the US - that way you will have a good idea regarding the specs for these items. Can't really help as to type of steel used in these screws - M8 x 1-1/4in, hex drive, countersunk .. but the "coating" is probably "Black Chrome" - I don't think it's a powder coating as otherwise it would abraid with use. [I'm trying to remember back one time in 40 years !]

You are probably thinking of 'black zinc', which a 'barrel plating' process.

Far cheaper than black chrome which gives that 'sexy depth' over the silvery subsurface.

But the more common 'forgers' use chemical black which generally looks 'very matte' and 'grey-ish' when un-oiled, and the black may rub off on paper.

Knowing the diameter range and thread system would help - but small socket head screws are generally made of higher tensile steels, as twisting off the head would otherwise 'too easy'.

Stainless is usually 'silver' - so that would be an 'is it plated steel' question. These are "black" - not stainless

I would guess the screws pictured are HT steel, oil tempered - so of the same class of steel as 'socket heads' in general.

They may be too small to grade mark, or the mark is too small to see with the naked eye.

Thanks Ed, this helps a bit.

As far as getting the government into the 21 century that would be nice but not going to happen. I guess I should have mentioned that they have defined these terms for their own purposes. I quote here some of the information from chapter 72 of the tariff. This is better than some areas of the tariff where they use terms but give no definition. For example pressure pipe fittings versus drainage pipe fittings with no definition as to how much pressure a fitting must be able to withstand to be classified under pressure fittings.

Notes.

1. In this Chapter and, in the case of Notes (d), (e) and (f) throughout the Nomenclature, the following expressions have the

meanings hereby assigned to them:

(a) Pig iron

Iron-carbon alloys not usefully malleable, containing more than 2% by weight of carbon and which may contain by weight

one or more other elements within the following limits:

- not more than 10% of chromium

- not more than 6% of manganese

- not more than 3% of phosphorus

- not more than 8% of silicon

- a total of not more than 10% of other elements.

(b) Spiegeleisen

Iron-carbon alloys containing by weight more than 6% but not more than 30% of manganese and otherwise conforming to

the specification at (a) above.

(c) Ferro-alloys

Alloys in pigs, blocks, lumps or similar primary forms, in forms obtained by continuous casting and also in granular or

powder forms, whether or not agglomerated, commonly used as an additive in the manufacture of other alloys or as

de-oxidants, de-sulphurizing agents or for similar uses in ferrous metallurgy and generally not usefully malleable,

containing by weight 4% or more of the element iron and one or more of the following:

- more than 10% of chromium

- more than 30% of manganese

- more than 3% of phosphorus

- more than 8% of silicon

- a total of more than 10% of other elements, excluding carbon, subject to a maximum content of 10% in the case of

copper.

(d) Steel

Ferrous materials other than those of heading 72.03 which (with the exception of certain types produced in the form of

castings) are usefully malleable and which contain by weight 2% or less of carbon. However, chromium steels may

contain higher proportions of carbon.

(e) Stainless steel

Alloy steels containing, by weight, 1.2% or less of carbon and 10.5% or more of chromium, with or without other elements.

(f) Other alloy steel

Steels not complying with the definition of stainless steel and containing by weight one or more of the following elements

in the proportion shown:

- 0.3% or more of aluminum

- 0.0008% or more of boron

- 0.3% or more of chromium

- 0.3% or more of cobalt

- 0.4% or more of copper

- 0.4% or more of lead

- 1.65% or more of manganese

- 0.08% or more of molybdenum

- 0.3% or more of nickel

- 0.06% or more of niobium

- 0.6% or more of silicon

- 0.05% or more of titanium

- 0.3% or more of tungsten (wolfram)

- 0.1% or more of vanadium

- 0.05% or more of zirconium

- 0.1% or more of other elements (except sulphur, phosphorus, carbon and nitrogen), taken separately.

That's a real hoot!

I especially like the "0.0008% or more of boron". Is that two molecules or three?

I do not envy you.

Hi Lyn

When you look at the silly details they put into the laws it may seem like it is no fun but when you look at the whole picture it is actually a great job. I get to play with everything in the world and I am basically paid to learn stuff. I bring the technical engineering problems here but I also play in all other fields as well. You should see what information I need to classify textiles. What fibers is it made of, is that a staple or filament, how many gm/m^2, is that weave a normal or a twill, is it yarn dyed or piece dyed? But of course I always have the importer to help me, typically their entire knowledge of the fabric is that it is blue .

Every import is a new field to dabble in and to be good at my job, I just have to know something about everything. Good thing I have you guys to run to when the authorities that insist I get it right can't even define their own terms.

I think your job would be interesting, for sure. Never a dull moment.

It's interesting to me when you point out the whimsical nature of some of the codes you have to deal with.

Cheers.

Well they are not in e. and could be in d or in f - which ever you like.

Well, I guess the spec on "other alloy steel" pretty much settles it. One can of boraxo spilled anywhere in the steel mill takes care of that. And if are super careful about boron additives for the melts there are plenty of other limits that can be broken by tramp elements in the scrap metal feed that make up the majority of the feedstock for most smaller electric furnace mills these days. Bottom line is that the regs you work under are what they are and the fact that they are just plain out of date doesn't change the rules.

Seems pretty certain to me that Asian mills that use scrap metal feedstocks are not going to pay a lot of attention to keeping small amounts of aluminum and other elements from automotive scrap out of the melt for merchant grade machining and thread rolling bar.

Ed Weldon

You have had a lot of good answers so far. The sticking point is the definitions of brass, steel, alloy steel and stainless steel. ALL of the aforementioned are alloys. Pure steel is an alloy. Pure brass is an alloy. So if your gov.t can't give definitions just pick the cheapest category. As mentioned by Ed, not all stainless is non magnetic. I would add, not all brass is non magnetic so to ask an importer to identify what they have without guidelines on the various techniques to make the distinctions necessary to determine what the material is, is unfair, at best. To even further make the chances of you getting it wrong they haven't even determined what is "alloy steel", "carbon steel" etc. Not to put too fine a point on it ALL STEEL IS AN ALLOY. ALL STEEL CONTAINS CARBON. So take your pick. Jim.

I am not an expert on this but I was reading a metal textbook a few weeks ago. It is true that all steel is an alloy of iron, carbon and possibly/probably small amounts of other things. But, the metal text book and probably Government Regs don't call carbon steel an alloy. They require other things in the mix to use the term alloy steel. I don't have the book available now but this is another case of the strict definition of the words not matching the way the industry uses the words (according to the text book I was reading).

It might have been as simple as "alloy" steel required a mixture of metals. I don't recall for sure.

The fine people at Wikipedia start their "Alloy Steel" section with "Alloy steel is steel alloyed with a variety of elements in total amounts of between 1.0% and 50% by weight to improve its mechanical properties. Alloy steels are broken down into two groups: low alloy steels and high alloy steels. The difference between the two is somewhat arbitrary." I don't know how well this matched the book I was reading but the "somewhat arbitrary" part of the Wikipedia posting is consistent with "legislated language".

Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray_fluorescence and then ask your boss to invest in a small hand held XRF analyzer and a day's worth of training. You will then be able to rapidly identify the metal composition of any piece of hardware without needing a degree in metallurgy and a materials test lab.

If the OP were the user / consumer, this would make sense...to have the ability to sample and screen the incoming materials in order to validate that the materials as delivered are conforming with the documentation / specifications.

In this case, the OP is a customs broker...seeking to confirm that the paperwork is coded properly so as to conform with import documentation requirements as they relate to tariffs and duties etc.

Another respondent advised that "all" steel is an alloy...which is correct....but we don't have any info on what/how the Gov't defines "alloy" steel (vs) "stainless" steel (vs) "carbon" steel.

Given the application (hobbyist / model maker) and the source(s)...you are almost certainly dealing with a "carbon" steel that has been coated / plated with a "black oxide" finish. This is probably a commodity grade / low tensile steel formulation...

In the end...the manufacturer needs to confirm the technical/chemical composition of his product...and the importer of record (your client) needs to secure this info from his supplier so that you can complete the transaction properly. Your client may not be getting the info required from the manufacturer and/or his immediate supplier, though...

What you say is true. XRF analysis will provide more information than OP requires to do his job. It also provides the opportunity to verify and supplement shipping documents, provide accurate and rapid material identification, and discover unwanted and potentially hazardous materials. It sort of depends on OP's nature. If he is content to read and believe manufacturer's documentation and select a category based on data provided, he doesn't require any analysis. I would want the ability to verify manufacturer's data.

"If he is content to read and believe manufacturer's documentation and select a category based on data provided, he doesn't require any analysis."

It is more a question of legallity. I would be very happy if the documentation gave me some info ....any info in fact. Usually the invoice reads "screw", sometimes it will give me the size. Also there is of course the question of time, analysing screws for the proper material is not the only file on my desk. On any given day I will also have to see if the nuclear sensing device heading for the boarder is actually loaded with the source, is the polyester resin unsaturated or not, if the feathers the theatrical boa is made of come from an endangered species, exactly what day will the wheat quota expire and will that cracker shipment arrive before or after the expiry, are the tables coming in "of a type used in offices" or not, does that meter measure flow rate or total volume, is the nylon fabric knitted or woven and filament or staple fiber, and is that motor AC or DC, single or multi phase, how many watt output and is it a gear motor. that will usually be before lunch. So no I won't be setting up an x-ray lab any time soon, I was just wondering if a photo was enough to lump a screw into one of the categories Canada Customs has designated. Whether the screw is actually made of what is declared on the documentation, will it hold the load, will it withstand the shear forces ...... those are the problems for you guys. My job is to get the screws to you on time and properly declared to customs.

If they came from China you probably aren't getting what you paid for.

Since the shipping documentation is clearly inadequate for a precise classification of this material, why not just levy these screws with the most expensive import tariff and be done. If the responsible party to pay for this tariff complains, ask them for proper documentation. They must comply with Canada's import requirements that includes proper documentation. Since it seems that the highest tariff is applied to the cheapest quality screw, this seems like the proper response.

"the highest tariff is applied to the cheapest quality screw"

Redfred - It seems like the proper response until you realize that the Canadian customers will be the ones that get "screwed". Who are the customers? They are some of the most mechanically skilled and creative people you'll ever meet. They are the builders of operational scale models, mostly unique and surprisingly high tech devices.

Access to reasonably priced miniature screws, both American standard and the even rarer metric sizes is difficult. My hat is off to the hobby shop owner who is dedicated enough to his customer base to go to the trouble of buying these things and stocking them for his customers. If the differential in tariff level is small it probably won't matter. But if it is so high that the hobby shop chooses to no longer stock them it will be a nasty little disservice to some of the people in Canada that you least want to alienate.

By the way these things would be very easy to smuggle. $100 worth of some of the smaller metric sizes could easily be held loose in the palm of your hand without spilling.

This raises another issue; off topic for this discussion.

I'm pretty sure that Apothicus is well tuned into the problems of crude customs classifications that get written into law and then preserved by politicians who have difficulty dealing with arcane corners of technology. In the case of miniature threaded fasteners we are talking about things that simply are not sold in the local hardware store. Seldom will you find machine screws smaller than #4 in even the best stocked hardware store, let alone 1.0mm, 1.2mm, 00, 0 and 1 sizes. The nearest you'll get is the particular sizes sold in eyeglass repair kits.

Unless there are serious volume manufacturers of these things in Canada that need protection it is ridiculous to have any tariff on them at all. They are the very "glue" needed to hold together some very high tech cutting edge technology. Think 6 rotor miniature gyrocopters, tiny robots and miniature surgical inventions. Often the people who are into that stuff built their skills in fabrication tiny devices while working on operational hobby models like RC aircraft, RC cars and finescale model trains. Advanced nations need to roll our red carpets for these folks, not discourage them with useless tariffs on the "nuts and bolts" of their work.

Ed Weldon

Ed,

Your not seriously advocating that Apothicus should circumvent his country's import/export tariff laws because he believes that these parts could be used for a noble cause. If Apothicus passes every item that crosses his desk with insufficient documentation for proper evaluation as the lowest tariff possible, he won't be helping the Canadian customer/citizen. He will be harming the Canadian businessman that loyally complied with the added expense of proper documentation. The legal businessman can only compete with those who willingly or lazily defraud the import/export laws by having the improperly documented transfers flagged.

Besides, we should all know that for any small volume specialty part selling store front (hobby store) the major cost paid by the customer for each part will be the store's overhead and not the part cost to the merchant. I would not be surprised if the hobby store cared less what tariff gets applied to these parts. This merchant knows that having these specialty parts on the shelf is one of the reasons his customers come in the door. The value the merchant adds is having these parts.

So I still say that when the paperwork is imprecise, Apothicus should assay the highest tariff that plausibly fits any item. If the importer balks at the higher tariff, the importer or whomever has the responsibility to pay the tariff certainly should be granted some time to obtain proper documentation. But Apothicus should not play favorites.

redfred -- The idea that Apothicus should not follow the established protocols never crossed my mind. I've worked in the government and I think I have a good understanding of how an effective civil service should work. We have all too many examples in this world of the horrors that grow when a civil service looses its integrity.

Fundamentally changes to improve things should only come through the due process that created the civil service structure in the first place. And that process depends on the truthful and logical feedback from the point of operations. It is the purpose of my posting here to arm the expert in such operations, Apothicus, the person with his "boots on the ground", with the substance of that feedback. And I full well appreciate the difficulty of getting that feedback through the system and the need to follow the rules. (Witness the 29 steps of approval for a $12,000 USA military construction project, c 1964, to replace a small cement block storage room on a Naval air station after it was destroyed by a nitrogen bottle with a broken valve.)

I am well acquainted with several people who are present and past owners of hobby shops. They deal with a customer base that is can be extreme in the tightness of their wallets. This is particularly true of the people who build models from "scratch" or repair their models themselves. Such people avoid having someone else do their work largely because of their reluctance to pay for someone else's labor and margins. If the shopkeeper decides to restock his supply of miniature fasteners he won't do it one package at a time. He'll buy a large enough lot to spread the fixed costs like shipping. When he looks at the final cost and realizes he'll have to raise prices on these already low margin items by 20-25% he knows full well that most of that inventory will still be on the shelf 5 years from now because the serious model builder will only buy what he absolutely needs today. That is the mentality of these customers. I know. I am one of them and I have a good number of hobby friends who are like me.

Ed Weldon (this morning the BS flows from my fingers like the gas from that nitrogen bottle.)

But you still limit your consideration to only three individuals: the civil servant (Apothicus), sloppy paperwork importer (hobby shop) and consumer (hobby shop customer). You ignore that there is also the struggling hobby shop that properly acquires his products. This guy may not realize that he is not competing on a level playing field. The hobby shop in the next town can undercut his prices because their costs do not include all of the legal fees.

C'mon, redfred. These hobby shops are not big businesses that buy fasteners by the ton. This is an extreme example. Recall my example of $100 worth of tiny screws in the palm of your hand? That's probably 20 cents of material and the rest is labor, overhead and margins. Levying the customs duty on the entire value of the product because of possible impurities in the material, which is a tiny part of the cost of the product is poor policy.

But the real issue here is that it is ridiculous for a small buyer of wholesale goods to require expensive material certifications on such items. Nobody in such a small business as a hobby shop or even a hobby equipment distributor is going to put up with that. They simply won't sell such a product. This is not aerospace engineering and milspecs and all of that.

But none of what we say is going to change the rules. It just may be that as long as the rules are what they are Apothicus is going to have to make some assumptions. And lacking some credible sort of affirmation of the material that goes into those screws he is simply going to have to err on the safe side. Much as it would be a neat tool to have any machine such as that neat xray diffraction machine that someone of our number suggested in an above reply would probably not fit into the budget. But then again, maybe the steel company being protected by the particular tariffs would like to pay for the equipment installed in Apothicus' shop to protect their interests.

Ed Weldon (Mo' nitrogen, mo' nitrogen.....)

You guys have hit on some of my problems here. Large scale importers of these items can usually answer my questions quickly and accuractly, or their supplier can. The problem with the hobby shops is that they source their parts from wholesalers in the U.S.A. and order them on-line in miniscule quantities. They don't realize that the screws are actually made in China, that only become apparent when we see the documentation. Country of origin is a requirement on any cross border document.

As far as just applying the highest rates of duty this is not really an option for two reasons. The first is that there are applicable penalties for getting the classification wrong, doesn't matter if you over pay or under pay, the penalties are the same. Knowingly underpaying is a different matter but very difficult to prove, that is fraud and can become a criminal case. The second problem is that my competitors may well solicit my clients by offering to apply the lowest rates possible. Because the penalties I've mentioned are only applied if an importer is audited by customs the odds of him geting caught are slim. That is a big part of the problem, customs regulations are very poorly enforced. But when they are, the costs can be crippling for a small business. For example an incorrect tariff number carries a fine of $300.00 and customs can audit an importer's transactions for the past 4 years. So if you import the same item once a week and classify it wrong? The possible fine is $300.00 x 52 x 4 = $62,400.00

Importers have a couple of options to avoid such nightmares. First hire a professional, experienced tariff expert. Second when in doubt about an item they can apply for a binding ruling. I charge less than $200.00 to get such a ruling. Even then if you don't agree with the governments decision it can be appealed to several different levels and even end up in a supreme court decision. (A very rare case)

My most memorable case was over a toy. You know the little plastic rod with a long piece of cloth on the end to amuse your cat? That item was fought over in court. See toys are defined as something for the amusement of children or adults but the section on toys specifically excludes toys for animals. My argument was that this item is not like the little mice that amuse cats because it requires a human on one end to wiggle the string. So I argued that a human won't spend that time unless they were being amused, therefore the goods fit the definition of toy. I lost, the tribunal decided that the item amused the cat, the cat was what amused the human. It was a fun case though. I was amused. (and well paid)

It's a crazy business.

One last point, I'm not the civil servant. I'm the middleman between the importer and the customs officers.

"One last point, I'm not the civil servant. I'm the middleman between the importer and the customs officers." ......Apothicus

Neat job!! You're a small businessman. All the more reason to try and help you.

But I'm not sure how. Clearly you need something to "hang your hat on" whenever your make a decision on the applicable tariff and so advise your client. Seems to me that with respect to these oddball miniature screws the issue is determining the material and how that determination credibly fits the requirements of the tariff regulation and definition.

Short of an expensive analysis of a lot of screws how can you justify treating these screws as not being alloy steel? A do it yourself chemical analysis? Still more trouble than it's worth and hard to prove the efficacy in front of judges who have limited technical knowledge. In every case of quantitative chemical analysis there will be the underlying question of how accurate it is.

One could approach the issue from a mechanical engineering standpoint and argue that such tiny screws would not benefit from any increase in yield strength that would result from using high alloys. But that might be too technical and would probably have to be verified with a lot of expensive engineering testing or research into 3/4 century old engineering papers.

I wish I had a better handle on the actual metallurgy of threaded fasteners. I have this feeling that there is little to be gained in miniature fasteners from the use of alloy levels that fall into the high level category that Canada tariffs regs show. Maybe one of you guys out there can illuminate this one at a level that doesn't require a graduate mechanical engineer to understand. (Not for me; for the bureaucrats that Apothicus will have to make his case to).

Ed Weldon

Assuming the tariff is to protect the local industry - which apparently does not make SS fasteners - hence no tariff.

I think it may be worth while finding out if local industry has a screw maker in this class.

If not, then applying for an exemption - say under a certain diameter - may succeed on the basis that the tariff unnecessarily penalizes local assemblers and fabricators.

I guess it depends if someone else wants to pay your time (especially as your efforts would benefit all your competing agents as well)

By the by, d? referred to another schedule - is that of relevance/use here?

Most people will not take a guess as MTR's (material traceability report), shoot with a PMI (positive material identification) gun, not having these or sure of what exact materials in some applications can leave you open for catastrophic things to happen and possibly some could get hurt. All fasteners are made for certain applications. It is great that your are aware of this situation as some people think all fasteners are the same. Some grading for fasteners or identification are on the heads of bolts but this is not always the case. Good Luck!

You can't tell the type of steel by the colour.

I don't suppose you actually come into physical contact with the product, but if you did you could use the grinder test. I once saw a book showing dozens of pictures of sparks thrown off when various types of steel were brought against a grinding wheel. I think a bench grinder would probably cost a lot less than an x-ray diffraction machine.

Just my 2 cents.

Dead right, it was the only method many years ago!!

Here is a link for the OP that describes the process:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark_testing

I also like the compressed air method also described in the same link.....