Just A Thought...

Many years ago I watched a documentary about some chimpanzees in the wild, who every morning, where fed with a bunch of bananas, (some thing of value), it did not take long for one of them to come up with a ruse to frighten the others away, and take all the bananas for them self. The chimp was referred to as the most intelligent?

So greed is equated to intelligence, and if you are intelligent, then one's ability to be right is of great value? This allows mankind to accumulate all the things of value, and sit back content in the knowledge that they are correct? Even going to war if necessary.

(Value is the inverse of Entropy (energy).) To me value is self knowledge applied with commonsense, faith in ones self and an understanding of others. But down through time I think the most important thing was the ability to survive, my ancestors from whom I inherited the way I act and think, and also other creatures on this planet, gave us these things of value, Life and the desire to propagate and survive.

Just a few thoughts Chris, regards JD.

"To me value is self knowledge applied with commonsense, faith in ones self and an understanding of others. But down through time I think the most important thing was the ability to survive, my ancestors from whom I inherited the way I act and think, and also other creatures on this planet, gave us these things of value, Life and the desire to propagate and survive."

exactly... you just put the essence of the Value Formula back into english. I put it into a formula so it could be more easily computed, useful in itself.

Something is more valuable to you if you know its relative value more accurately.

Greed is based on fear, not intelligence. His success in acquiring bananas was an example of his intelligence, though a very limited one.

Greed is the fear of not having. The really intelligent chimps would be those who recognized the importance of the others around them. Cooperation comes when the fear is gone. He may be able to survive alone so long as someone is providing bananas. But take them away, and his dependence on his group becomes much more pronounced. What the experiment revealed was the greediest chimp. It also revealed the underlying purpose of the experimenters!

Fear raises entropy. Understanding lowers it.

now that is an awesome insight! g f'n a

chris

This is an interesting, and intuitively appealing, way to look at it. From an energy standpoint, "quality" or "availability" or "intensity" might also be considered as inverses of entropy. I'm not sure there is any best, or even widely accepted, wording.

There may be some advantages of mathematical simplicity in defining entropy in the standard direction, rather than the opposite.

Many years ago, the Life [magazine] Science Library included a book by Peter W. Atkins, titled The Second Law. Classic. (My copy has two interswitched signatures of pages, making it a leapfrog to read.)

"There may be some advantages of mathematical simplicity in defining entropy in the standard direction, rather than the opposite."

I'm not sure what you mean?

Chris

Just apart from current basic needs of humanity- food, shelter & dress, there are more gadgets to the growing lists of human needs like- occupation, energy,comfort,transport,communication, materials, safe environment, sustainability and the list is likely to become more complex.

The major botherations are growing human population,resources abuse and alteration of the earth's sphere and hollowing out all matter[ conversion into buildings,extraction and consumption of materials,burning out matter for energy, contaminating water resources etc].

Whether directly or indirectly being of any value, the term utility potential sounds better than value.

What is the Utility of Art or Music or Love?

Value is much more than just Utility (perhaps this is just my interpretation.. but to me, that is like saying only tools and materials are of value) I know you probably mean Function (and Form).. but Value is Beauty, Love, Sex, Art, Music... comprehensively all the things that humans appreciate and spend their money (representation of value) on, or Create.

but I agree that Utility is very important. It has a whole term to itself in my Value Formula. (SV)

Chris

Pleasure, delight, satisfaction etc could be denoted as utility value of Art,Music, Love etc.

I understand... but still think Value is the more appropriate word... but I'm open minded about it because I think that 'it' is still rather undefinable. (thus the attempt to define it and formulate it... generically. so we don't get caught up in semantics)

Some Australian biochemist has developed a virus that causes sterility in mice. He thinks it could easily be engineered for humans...

Subtle. No one would know it was working until it was widespread.

Interesting topic. I don't have time right now to write much. But do have a quibble:

...humans want to cut down forests

I disagree....it's not that humans want to cut down forests.....but that doing so is a way of providing humans with what they do want (i.e. warmth, shelter, farm land, etc.).

okay.. you are right on that one.. 99.9%

I'll try.

Sounds like an oversimplification, but, to me, water, food, and shelter, in that order, have true value. Everything beyond those things has perceived value.

This is assuming that our atmosphere is breathable. If not, breathable air would take the #1 spot.

I remember hearing years ago... that what we do as humans... is take experience, and training, and knowledge, and synthesize this into more knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. It is often a process of simplification, and symbolic representation.

Most of our ideas of Value come from the iconic lifestyle representations of those who have accumulated a lot of value. (Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous) but obviously, there are those out there actively redefining Value, Art, Knowledge, Wisdom, Genius, etc.

Having read your recent thread, i was wondering if you would comment on this one, because to me, it had a similar feel to me...

When I speak of Value, I'm talking about all those products and services that we make to support our lifestyles. You spoke of Katrina.. but isn't the knowledge of what do do to support yourself of Value? Knowledge (especially practical knowledge) is one of the premier Valuable things in my book. That is why I have 5000 books, and pay each month to store them.. someday we will need them.

All survival stories and experiences are algorithms that work out value problems.

Chris

What you do to earn the money to get yourself water, food and shelter has value, because it directly enables you to have the things that you need to survive.

Designing a cool new motorcycle and becoming a superstar in the design world, which in turn enables you to buy a mansion or two, would be perceived value. Both the value that you assign to your cool new stuff, and the new found value that you assign to yourself as a human being, have value, but it doesn't contribute to your ultimate survival. Which is not to say that that kind of value has no role, and is not important.

Having spent several months homeless, (ironically, just outside of New Orleans), I assigned value to other people's cigarette butts, a pack of rolling papers, and some matches. They were important to me.

So, I don't think a universal set of values, beyond water, food and shelter, can be established. They are set on an individual level. Some people require next to nothing. For others there is never enough. For some people, murder is committed without blinking an eye. Others spend their entire lives selflessly helping others. It's not something we can nail down.

Unless I'm not understanding you.

actually, you are understanding my thinking perfectly.. but not understanding the Value Formula.

When you look at the Value Formula, the first term HN (Human Need) is the term that covers everything you described about "Preference" or your own needs or desires profile. In use, in the context of the Comparator system, the Value Formula will take that Preference Profile that you have defined, and more easily help you find, compare,negotiate, purchase, and delivery, what you 'personally' want. That is the point.

The first thing that I recognized about Value, and still recognize, is that it is Relative to the User/Owner. we are saying the same thing.

Chris

chris,

I'm gonna have to disengage and get back to you after I've read and absorbed your other thread.

One of the things that holds value to me is drinking and carrying on with friends............................no driving.

Have a good one buddy!

You are absolutely correct. Value itself is personal, even if you are an ant. I've been working on a characterization of what you are asking/saying for some time now, and you have hit the big question head on.

Here is what I know so far, and can explain so far.

Natural law is based upon quantum mechanical and relativistic relationships. Fundamentally, there are Three laws to consider and all others are derived from the phenomenon ascociated with these three.

1. Uniqueness of Being - Uniqueness in each Being is an absolute. The only exception is the quantum "anomally" of the same object in two places at the same time.

2. Internal Complexity - There is always internal form that is unresolvable in the observed object. This form is the source of the uniqueness or is the result of it, take your pick.

3. Two-Slit Experiment - This is a demonstration of the fundamental relationship between the observer and the observed. It is another quantum "anomally" that is in fact a rule that is in opperation at all times and in all places. The study of this experiment yields amazing insights into the relationship between you, the self, and everything else. Everything else has a similar relationship to you.

Aristotle spoke of the Architypes. What you know, you know because of the substance you observe in your mind and the form that substance takes within your mind. But when you observe this substance, you only observe, you do not direct or change it. When you change your thought, you change the magnitude and direction of your intent to see within your mind, of the space and objects within that space. What space you are observing is the multi-spacial space of non-physical material reality (NPMR. See Thomas Campbell "My Big TOE")

In the physical reality the space is singular. This fact, combined with the 3 laws I mensioned, is the reason there is scarcity in the physical. All particles/beings within the physical are unique, singular, and therefore scarce.

BUT, they are all the source of the form observed in NPMR. PMR (Physical Material Reality) is a constant source of form within NPMR. The two forms of space are connected. A chess board creates a PMR form. NPMR reflects the form of that board, and all the possibilities it represents, thus creating the "multi-spacial" chess board. This space is where your mind explors those possibilities to find the best probabilities or potentials for the next move. You find value in those forms.

Possibility is space. Probability is the waveform. Observation is the recognition of the particle within the space and the form of the wave of probability.

In the formula E=mc^2 there are two "m"s. M1 and M2. M1 is the observer and m2 is the observed. In the two slit experiment, m1 is the physicist and m2 is the electron.

c^2 is also over simplified. It is the space, d, and the time, t, of the velocity of light, which is the event E of observation.

In the two-slit experiment, the physicist sees the electron he was looking for. The output screen proves he did look, and see. The electron never changed it's shape or nature, and neither did the screen. What changed was the physicist. What changed was the observer. What changed was the observation and that changed the possibilities. That changed the space.

Entropy is the conversion of the chaos of both PMR and NPMR into the particles of form. Knowledge is the form gained in NPMR. Utility and Value is the form gained in PMR.

The electron seen by the physicist is very very valuable to him because it is scarce and unique. He made it so, because he too is scarce and unique, and so E=mc^2 is a unique experience for both the electron and the physicist. E is the experience of both.

As knowledge is gained, new experience becomes possible, thus expanding the space in which we can observe. Entropy is the conversion of chaos to knowledge.

Life in this universe is a result of a very simple relationship between the most energetic and highly "charged" atoms of Hydrogen and Oxygen. Water is the stuff of life. It is seeking higher form. It takes everything else apart, and it puts everything else together. This action creates new forms all the time, and eventually some forms became PMR forms with permanence as well as repeatability. DNA is a complex form of memory. A Human being is a very very complex form remembered. So is a tree.

So that is two-cent synopsis. As for your question of value and valueation, I would direct you to read Mises, Rothbard, Menger, and Hyeck. All of their work is available for free or pay for print at www.mises.org.

interesting... I agree with most of that. thank you for the references. I will look those up.

except for "Entropy is the conversion of the chaos of both PMR and NPMR into the particles of form." because unless I'm misunderstanding you, I understand Entropy to be a return to chaos or formlessness.

I would enjoy reading more of your 'characterization' in more detail, if you care to share. I'm both philosophical and scientific enough to at least follow what you are saying.

Chris

No, Entropy is an increase in available energy. Chaos is form that you currently cannot resolve. Both are an illusion. The only thing that changes is what is seen. To see, you must "form" a form to see.

The apparent "decay" that is often taken to be entropy is simply the default action when will and intent are not being applied.

When they are, Form is the result, and chaos recedes. But the reality is that chos never really goes away. The nature of the chaos when observed AS chaos, is randomness. But when the form within that chaos is seen, then it is known, and is no longer chaos! What changed? The physicist!

hmmmm...

Entropy here seems to suggest that it is energy that is Not available for work. in my mind, that means a decrease in energy.... as Energy is a Difference of Potential.. Entropy is a decrease in the difference of potential.

but perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.

When you talk about things not being seen... are you talking about latent heat? or the potential idea structure of some form of matter or system?

Chris

I'm sorry, I misstated. The lowering of entropy is an increase in available energy. Increasing entropy lowers the available energy.

The relative difference is based entirely on what is perceived of the energy. In other words, conscious understanding of the chaos reduces the chaos and increases the order and increases the energy available to do work.

Now the big question is, what is conscious? What is consciousness? The answer is EVERYTHING!

Now here is the weird part. Nothing changed except the understanding of the observer. When you look at the two-slit experiment, everything you need to know about knowledge, understanding, entropy, chaos, particles, being, and order is right there in that demonstration. The implications of it lead to the conclusion that we ourselves create the change in possibility, and the change in outcome, and the change in entropy. What we value, to go back to your original question, is the order, the form.

In Aristotle's archetypes, the most fundamental form is numbers. If you are familiar with the Aleph numbers, then you can think of tangible reality or PMR are Aleph0 space-time. NPMR, the intangible reality, is Aleph1 space-time and above.

Order is found, not created. It is recognised not invented. This changes everything when you begin to apply natural law to legal systems....It changes everything when you realize you are uncovering the entropy as you yourself expand your understanding. You "create" the reality you see. You "create" the value in the things you value.

Late one night in 1988 I was headed to the airport in Mumbai. The taxi driver stopped to get a treat of some kind and there was a beggar lady there with two babies.

I gave her a couple of Rupees (maybe 10 or 20 cents) and she was very happy.

Later on the same trip I was sitting in an airport bar in Atlanta watching the news and the big topic was the feds being after the city for not repairing low cost housing fast enough. Seems the tenants liked to trash the places and move out - waiting for another renovated free apartment. No thanks necessary as it was their right to have a free apartment in usable condition.

There were two extremes - I felt far more for the beggar lady in Mumbai than the trash in Atlanta.

I've worked on those tenement buildings.....................complete refurbish.

It was in the projects in Chas., SC. and it was a disgusting spectacle to witness.

Fresh paint, new windows, new HVAC units................everything!

They would move people into a building as soon as it was finished, and we'd be working on the next set.

Man it sucked!!! It didn't matter that we were being paid, (most of my crew were black and felt the same way), these people would move in, and immediately, graffitti on the walls, screens ripped out, broken windows...........you name it.

That was over 25 years ago, and I knew for a fact, right then and there, that nothing that isn't earned is appreciated.

So anyway, not only that, but the inspectors were writing up massive punch lists, on the tiniest of things, doing their level best to kill any potential profit that was in the job.

So, we've got a bunch of construction people that work for private companies, getting up, going to work every day. And not only are our taxes paying for the tenants in the buildings, but they're paying the salaries of the inspectors that are busting our chops on BS on a daily basis......................................and, the buildings are getting wrecked as fast as we can finish them.

A perpetual motion machine!

Pretty much.

It definitely didn't do much good for a bunch of guys that take pride in, and put value on the quality of their work.

In that regard, for most people, there is value associated with their work that goes beyond the paycheck.

On a societal level, that's a value that is needed. Oddly enough, the place where it seems to be the least found is among government workers...................not all of them.

Think permit dept, DMV, airport security..............................................you know.

One other thing I meant to write in my OP was about the persistence of value.

Things that do not deteriorate, have more value, or hold their value.

If you think of diamonds and other precious stones, gold, and anything that doesn't deteriorate over time, these things are all prized by us. If you think of living very long lifetimes, that would be extremely valuable. This is one of the cornerstone ideas of my 'value is the inverse of entropy' assertion... things that do not deteriorate, or resist entropy, are more valuable.

If you think of financial markets.. and the stability of the price of currency prior to 1913... you can see that this is also true in finance. If something fluctuates wildly... is less predictable.. and is higher risk... it ought to be considered to have less overall value. (only if you are able to skillfully surf those waves should you invest in them.)

the 'blue chip' stocks show the most stable and consistent growth, and have a great deal of value, for their stabilty, and subsequent 'security'.

If you can imagine car tires that don't wear out, machines that don't require maintenance, or buildings that don't require maintenance.. clothes that don't get threadbare... you can see value.. However..., engineering things to the point of perfection is usually not economical, either financially (cost of higher quality materials and processes) or technically (heavier)

I think it can be fairly said that technical issues or environmental issues can easily be interpreted as competitive with Value considerations, based on the 'persistence' factor.

Chris

Friendship Chris, basic, simple friendship is of value. Try and put that in a formula. I do it all the time and the value is imponderable. It could be a word or a intricate drawing or something other of value. The word could be thank you and the other could be please.

The value of those two words is underestimated. They have differently perceived value but in their purest form are what they are. Very valuable tools of communication. There are other words that do the same. The catalytic value of only one little word, can start a war or make peace.

Take any of the words written in any of your 5000 books or take a sentence or an instruction and you will find that they have intrinsic value. I mean just randomly. At that moment in time. I do mean any of them. Like opening a book and finding the perfect reflection of ones thoughts or problems. The value of coincidence.

It's magic and I am sure it has happened to all of us. Plain and simple magic and no one to thank for or to ask from. The value of the smallest part of any system is as important as the final product. Criticizing is of value but only if one can fix the part or do it better or in a different way and do it then and there. Just like a balanced formula.

There are a few things of no value at all and one is bean counting. Like making "friends" on Facebook or twitting a bean this way or that. The couple of rupee that were given by Russ count more than all the tweets in the world. Giving when you have everything is honorable, giving when you have nothing is grace.

I know nothing about what happened with the housing issue which was mentioned but thank you and please were not mentioned and I don't think those words were ever used during this destructive episode. Just imagine one of them saying thank you. Imagine the value and the friendship which could have come out of such use of the word.

The value of the written word: priceless

Thank you, Ky.

eloquent insight! ga.

There is a synergistic effect about value.. when the needed thing is received, at the right time, and the right place, and often with no attitude, and the value is far beyond satisfaction.... just as you say about Russ's story....

Chris

Just check your inbox Mate

Beyofaction, I like that.

See it done, Ky.

Funny, I was just meditating on the intertwined relationship of entropy and enthalpy a couple of days ago. In part to your response to my "entropy happens" comment in some thread a while ago...

So you are asserting that value = enthalpy or 1/S. Well, maybe. I spend a lot of time in the woods. More than most, I think, and have no desire to cut down trees for their energetic purposes. I have cut down some very old, very large Douglas Fir trees and I felt very bad in doing so.

Value is relative. Enthalpy is the inverse of entropy. Energetic systems decay and release their energy for other systems to use and thrive... and decay. The rightness or wrongness of such a thing is entirely a human response. The forest thrives from the decay of the forest which proceeded it. We, as human, are in a constant struggle with entropy, but only with our own ends in mind.

great stuff... I would love to have Value defined as neatly as all that...

ga

Chris

Now I get it Chris

Vision = enthalpy

hind-site = entropy

Me sure?

BINGO!

The physicist sees the electron he looked for....The value he thought to perceive. He observed the thought in NPMR, and then applied the thought to PMR in the experiment. What changed was his own perception of the PMR reality in the experiment.

Jesus said, "Seek and ye shall find." Quantum physics gives us proof of this statement in ways I don't think he imagined!

Jesus said, "Seek and ye shall find." Quantum physics gives us proof of this statement in ways I don't think he imagined!

hahhehehehehahahahaheef flrk thump... rolfmao

not that I'm a huge fan of the mythical jesus of the KJ bible. (historical Jesus yes) but you just said that 'the lord' didn't really know or fully understand.... the universe he created... or that it requires scientific backup....lol sorry that hits my funny bone.

I'm of the opinion that we should at least respect the ancient sources, however edited and reconfigured it may be. (which I think you were attempting)

I think you might say that we are finding improved understanding of the ancient maxims and wisdoms. Many of them actually date from ancient sumeria...

I don't know what you mean by "mythical jesus" but the historical Jesus did miracles, was crucified and rose from the dead. He had followers of people who sought the truth. read Josephus
http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm
Religion is man's way of seeking God. All men have spiritual beliefs even if they do not have religion. Athiest believe there is no God. I admire their faith because they have more faith than I have.
God says man has value and is worth saving therefore he sent (historical) Jesus who died the most agonizing death so that we can be reconciled to God. Is there anything more valuable that a human life?

PS. Don't say this is off topic, I did not bring up the topic of Jesus.

just as mythical as the ancient gods.

I think I brought him up. I quoted him because there was a truth that fit Quantum Physics. I find the more we know, the less different our views and religions and science seem to be. It's the same reality whether you believe in something or not.

i don't make the distiction between mythical and historical any more. Aurthur? Robin Hood? Achillies?

It's ain't the story, or it's source, but the content that is important!

I have to agree with the irony you find in that statement. It's apparent that you know some of the Biblical teachings. I just don't agree about the mystical part. He has had more impact on the people of earth than any other man. A myth couldn't do that.

In view of the recent responses, I wonder how the CR4 admin will respond to this thread. Now in an attempt to get it back on topic, I agree that value is relative. For example some people find more value in religion than others. Also some religions are more valuable than others. I don't think the admin will allow me to be more specific.

Some threads on CR4 are more valuable than others. Some recent "Anti-..." ones come to mind as having the least value.

I'm a spiritual man, not a religious one. I am a lot like Chris (same name even and a Canadian family!) in that I look for truth everywhere with an open mind but skeptical questioning. I think you are right, that some people value religion more than others. I for one find them to be very valuable the more I understand both Physics, and Metaphysics.

It's hard to stay on the topic of universal truths without citing ancient texts, religious or otherwise. After all, most of our science today was built upon what was known before, and that knowledge was passed down through the ages by religious people and their writings. But just because they are old, or perhaps seen as "religious" does not mean they are wrong!

Truth is timeless. Understanding is in the moment.

I think it is interesting that you refer to Jesus as a "mythical" character. Were Abe Lincoln, George Washington, Albert Einstein also "mythical"? After all, none of us have see them. There is much more historical evidence of Jesus and his impact on history than any of these guys.

A mythical character doesn't change the world or have the impact that the historically authenticated Jesus had. There is a great deal of extra-Biblical evidence of the man named Jesus who was born as it is recorded in many Biblical and extra-Biblical documents. He was also a fulfillment of prophecies that were made a couple of thousand years prior to his birth in Bethlehem.

The calendar reflects the significance of his coming into existence here on earth, hence b.c and a.d.

People aren't willing to die for a mythological character as many have done and have been martyred for their belief in Him.

The comment to referred back to about "'the lord' didn't really know or fully understand.... the universe he created... or that it requires scientific backup" is a silly statement because Jesus is God and God is omniscient. There has been no event in history that God didn't know about beforehand and also know the outcome. He knew exactly what He created as He spoke the world we see, and can't see yet, into existence.

What people value is based upon their needs and their ability to obtain those things. A man travelling in the desert doesn't care about his Bentley GT he has at home. He values water, shelter and food. When we returns home, then he may value his car, as his priorities have then changed.

Value comes from the cost of the item and how much someone else needs the item.

In the POW camps of the Civil War here in the U.S., the German concentration camps or the Russian Gulags what was valued took on a whole new perspective. Chief among them being something intangible like HOPE. The HOPE we have for the future when we die also doesn't have a financial price attached to it, but it is of utmost worth. Our destination after we die is determined by what we do with this historical person named Jesus of Nazareth. Whether I choose to believe/value that fact or not has nothing to do with whether it is Truth or not. Some things have value on their own regardless of my opinion of them.

As for a further elucidation, entropy only increases in a system if the system is defined. So, say the incessant burning of fossil fuels have increased entropy on Earth with Earth as the defined system, but there has been no net increase of entropy in the solar system, conservation of energy and all. So, the value of a something is only such as its boundaries are defined.

On a smaller scale, a tree growing is assimilating energy from the environment to maintain and grow its system. Increasing the energy of its system. When the tree dies, it system breaks down, becoming more entropic, but releasing that energy into the immediate environment, allowing other energetic systems to acquire its energy and become less entropic.

So, with regards to "value", that would be entirely defined by a human response to presumed benefits of a given system.

I think where entropy really shows as a definite force, is the decay and loss of information (Time). e.g. Where, with humans, the information contained within a given selection of books, contains a huge energetic potential which is more than the energy released by, say, burning the books. So, although the burning of a book may release energy to keep a person warm for a short period, if the same book had instruction on how to go about building a solar heated home, the book, with its information, contains much more potential energy as information than as fuel.

But, again, the value of such a thing is only defined by the individual (and/or group) and their current wants and needs.

"As for a further elucidation, entropy only increases in a system if the system is defined. So, say the incessant burning of fossil fuels have increased entropy on Earth with Earth as the defined system, but there has been no net increase of entropy in the solar system, conservation of energy and all. So, the value of a something is only such as its boundaries are defined"

oooh, I like that. to me it sounds like Quantum probability is collapsed to measurable reality in the presence of the observer. In the case of Value, the value is defined relative to the observer/user, and thus the observer is an essential element of the system. Value can not be defined if there is no user/observer.

Chris

Yes. The probability wave of our past and our possibility wave of our future collapsing in the moment. We are integral in any defined system, from the tree through to the universe. Our interaction is the soul force giving rise to experience we choose, not "Cogito ergo sum" rather "Sum quod sum".

I think that is true too, for there are many events in human life where the person does not consciously choose, at the earthly practical level, what any given experience will be. (who would choose death or dismemberment)

I think there are levels, where decisions are made by our soul, which do not consult our daily pedestrian consciousness.

I'm glad I invented you... you are rather insightful.

Chris

Unfortunately freedom is rather pricey.. and scarce

Control on the other hand is both profitable and plentiful

Have you read Robert Persig yet? His 1st popular book (turned down by 119 publishers!) "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" is subtitled "An inquiry into Values" and resonates well with you new insight. His sequel, "Lila" is a great expansion on the theme.

I will check that out.. I haven't read any of them.. thank you.

Chris

Another vote of approval for Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. [Minor note: Robert Pirsig.]

Beat me to it! I was going to mention it as well. GA to you Sir!

You are enjoying the benefit of freedom and free thinking. Billions before you did not enjoy this luxury.

If you had been a slave in ancient Rome you wouldn't have the time or ability to walk freely through a forest pondering the meanings of life. If you were a woman in modern China and wanted more than 1 child someone from the State would be knocking on your door to discuss your selfish desires. Without freedom of speech some might want to censor you for stepping out of line with your thoughts and ideas.

You speak of the true meaning of values. To the Roman slave another bowl of daily soup might be highly valued considering his circumstances. The woman in China might give up a huge fortune just to have another baby...a right Westerners never give a second thought to, but yet they still enjoy at will.

Value is highly relative to one's circumstances and has been throughout our existence.

I wear a stainless steel bracelet I had custom made, it says, "Never Forget Those That Gave Everything Yesterday So That You Could Enjoy Freedom Today". It also has a small POW/MIA symbol engraved into it. You might want to think about that the next time you're freely walking through a forest and smelling all the nice flowers. Without freedom you'd not be enjoying that simple pleasure.

true.

coming from a military family, and being interested in history, and enjoying Canadian freedom, I agree with everything you say. I don't take it for granted. As regards slavery... I think Canada was is an example to the world... and a the most popular destination for those who seek it.

all the more reason to use comparison, and the value formula, so that the real cost/value of non-physical things can be properly assessed. The only tools we have currently are debate or conflict.

The Comparator that I speak of would create a proper spectrum of all the things that we value. There is no reason that this approach would not be a very valid method to assess socio-political ideas and situations. If you consider how much blogging goes on.. it would be another tool to provide relative insights, using comparison as the ultimate differentiator.

thank you

chris

ps... I love all these insights, such as yours, as they provide excellent comparisons.... and comparison is the ultimate way of knowing anything.

The comparator you seek to create is the free market. That is, a free market free of manipulation by decree or regulation by central planners. Price, in a free market, sound money system gives the value comparison your comparator would calculate. Since the value of anything is personal and subjective, only the people exchanging value for value can solve the calculation. All people, all exchanges, produce the results in the prices of the market.

Without any outside intervention by central banks, government decree, or any other form of first use of force, the market will perform the calculation spontaneously and correctly. A free market is like a black-box neural net. If you tinker with it, you get incorrect results. If you don't, it gives you correct results.

Again, read Mises and Rothbard.

Nice thread

Hi Chris,

I agree that life is anti-entropic, and DNA is the blueprint for life. Some others are the formation of galaxies and solar systems, and the universe itself. Entropy can affect DNA though (can get genetic disorders).

Your post seems a little religious. You keep mentioning the clay tablets and ancient gods (your religion?). I could debate, but then this would be a religious thread, so I won't.

"I'm not sure I'm making much sense of it"

I'm not sure I grasped you meanings entirely.

-S

Good point, and I would add a caveat: Life and manufacture are locally anti-entropic. The decreased entropy (increased order) in the subsystem are accompanied by an equal or greater increased entropy (decreased order) in the overall system.

I've not heard that before... is it true? (decrease in overall?)

doesn't that inherently create a limit to growth of life in the universe?

Yes, but not for a few billion more years. The ultimate crisis will be an entropy crisis, more so than an energy crisis. The total energy remains the same, but energy differentials will be gone, and they are what drive all sorts of processes.

I don't think so. It seems to me that the more we see, the more order we find, the more chaos there appears to be. The physical reality is just what we can see in singular space-time. As we see more in NPMR, we find more chaos to order up. I'm not too worried about running out of chaos!

Heck, if Congress is still around in few billion years there will be plenty of chaos!

btw, there is something charming about your avatar.

I'll just repeat my recommendation of Peter W. Atkins's The Second Law.

I don't have a religion. I'm a student of life here... maybe when I graduate? What I have are specific beliefs. I read everything I can that piques my interest.. and try to absorb and understand, integrate and synthesize into a comprehensive and coherent understanding.

thanks

Chris

You said...

"absorb and understand, integrate and synthesize into a comprehensive and coherent understanding."

May I offer that the result of that process is what drives "value". Value per se is not a tangible physical trait of any material, energy or system. As such, value is something we humans give to a particular item, no matter what that item is. As our "understanding" changes, so does the perceived value a given item has, but it is always based on our singular view of that item.

Funny... my wife thinks shiny little hunks of compressed carbon have immense "value". Must be her understanding. LOL... by times I wish I could change her understanding of their "value".

Interesting thread...

Exactly. Value is subjective and so can only be enumerated or defined by the person evaluating the thing. I place more value on some rocks I dig up in my yard than my wife because I "like" them more than she does. She places more value on shoes than I do for the same reason. Neither of us is wrong and neither evaluation is wrong, they just are what they are because we are who we are. The quantum rule in effect in this is the law of uniqueness. Our evaluations MUST be different, it's the natural law!

Even Order is inexact by this law. So expectations of absolute equality, absolute order in any way are going to be unmet in reality. Freedom is the natural state of being because forced equality and universal order is impossible to achieve. Unless we are free to choose for ourselves, the right answers, the right choices cannot be made.

In nature, all things choose and select according to their own needs, desires, consequences, and self. Even atoms. There is similarity, but that is not the same as equality. It is a "range" of attributes that are "closely related". All Hydrogen Atoms behave in similarly predictable ways, but, when observed individually and at high resolution, they are all different in detail and unpredictable in behaviour, exactly. But they are predictable within a range of actions due to their close similarity. This is as good as order can get.

Hi Chris,

I just stopped in briefly, mainly just to beat the pseudo-intellectual crap out of Roger Pink, who appears to have taken up the sword again, venting his "disgust*" with Blink (someone I think of as a friend part of the time, and my worst enemy at other times.)

But I wanted to take a minute to say that I value your posts.

"Value" in economic terms, has been discussed for centuries. You know doubt know the names of some great and not so great economists. Engineering is child's play as compared to economics, psycho economics, and neural economics. There are no f=ma's here.

So, following is a profoundly short answer to a very complicated question about which millions upon millions of pages have been written: Humans most value relationships, even to the extent that one cannot assess one's own value other than in relation to others.

I'll try to stop back to see how the thread is going.

All the following is OFF TOPIC, by the way (and is not the beating to which I referred -- it's just the background.)

*If Roger were more introspective (and less belligerent and argumentative) he might find that this "disgust" is really directed inward: perhaps he is disgusted with himself for being unable to win over converts to his particular take on the interplay of religion, philosophy and science, and to his rudeness to our members. Roger's early struggles with geometry, but apparent competence with other areas in mathematics, might suggest that logic is not his strong suit (given that proofs in geometry rely heavily on logic). Blink's "disgusting" offense (in Roger's eyes) was apparently Blink's defense of the right of an apparent atheist to voice his views (which the apparent atheist did politely and without malice.) The view that "The belief or faith in an afterlife is counter to rational thinking," as expressed by Kevin M, uses the term "rational" in the sense that Irrationalists use it.

Irrationalism values the irrational and admits that many ideas that guide us in very significant (perhaps most significant) ways are not arrived at by a rational, step-by-step, empirical or scientific process. When a scientist looks at a dead animal, there is not a rational process that leads the scientist to conclude that the animal is alive. (A scientist's beliefs, however, might lead the scientist to assert that the animal is alive in a second or third life [of many or endless number]). Irrationalists would assert that those who think that only rational concepts have value are missing out on many aspects of life.

Roger found Kevin's remark "degrading", (a term usually reserved for acts like rape, sexual harassment, etc.) perhaps thinking that the remark was "all about Roger" and, in addition, thinking, (who knows?) that "not rational" meant "bad" or "stupid", or something else. But Kevin went on in the same post to say that some of his most valued relations were with conventionally religious people. Obviously, Kevin's intent was not to insult, but to contribute to the conversation.

But Roger felt "degraded", and was then "disgusted" by Blink's defense of Kevin's thoughtful post. Now Roger is up to his old tricks again, even a year later. Yikes... I read his The Antiscience Part II. What an incredible load of ill informed, naive, sophomoric drivel. Even his blog intro has become more pretentious over time. Nuanced? Give me a break. If you don't have the basics down, you can hardly focus on the nuances.

K_Fry,

great to hear from you! thanks for stopping by. I can't promise any satisfaction with this thread... and it seems to have fizzled out.

As to Roger, most of it is over my head.. so I don't pay close attention.. I just selfishly focus on my own ideas. better for me that way, and helps me stay balanced.

I agree about the irrationality.. but that isn't to say that there isn't an ultimate answer that will resolve all such questions.

One favourite notion of mine is that we (our brains) are quantum computers that can peer into different quantum universes (of the infinite multiverse) and make 'leaps' of knowledge in that way. There is an assertion that the mind can not distinguish between 'reality' and an idea, firmly believed in to an equal degree. I think that if a person gets an idea from a different place, where that idea had more context, it was true in that universe, but not in the universe that it is being presented to... thus seems crazy.... and to a certain degree, based on our quantum computing nature, we are all crazy and genius at the same time.

the trick is all about remembering what is appropriate for each 'universe' or system of ideas that we are dealing with. Without the filtering that this memory map provides us with, we all appear insane, bi-polar, shizoid, etc... but I believe that there is an ultimate reality to it all, where all this sh*t makes sense.

imho.

I also think that on top of all that, we are all just one being, living different lifetimes.. and that is ultimately supposed to help us understand others points of view... because one day, that point of view will be ours to defend. (like the differences between you and Blink)

cogito ergo sum

Chris

Hey chris,

I don't know if it's fizzled. I might be able to add something, if you can explain to me, (like you're talking to a 10 year old), what your after here. Sorry, I've spent so much effort trying to simplify my life that it doesn't take much get my brain stuck and confused.

I am willing to accept that some things on here are just over my head though.

what your after here.

I was only after discussion, and also I like to test my ideas in the fires of CR4. I think that what I said in my OP kind of captures my discussion's intent.

"Our economy is based on our perceptions of Value."

so that understanding Value from a purer or more absolute place, may help bring greater clarity about how to fix the economy, and permit all participants benefit from their labours appropriately.

If Value is definable, then it is more achievable. We will then know more specifically how to create wealth and value, individually, and as group(s), corporations or nations.

I'm hoping that this sort of effort will change us from 'flat earth' economics to whatever is next...

Chris

I came up with what I think is a great idea yesterday. I think the perceived value would have a large impact on the US economy. I guess it may fit in your thread. It's a real simple one. Here it is.

Anybody that starts a new, legitimate business in the US within the next year, has one full year in which no taxes have to be paid. The money is all yours. This would apply only to taxes on the business, payroll taxes on employees would still be paid. After that first year, normal taxes would apply.

I understand that some new businesses operate at a loss for a year or two, but many don't. The perceived value of having a tax free year, I think, would spur a lot of people to roll the dice and take a gamble. It would also have the potential to put a lot of people to work that aren't working now, which in turn would create a net increase in revenue to the government through payroll taxes, even with the tax free year on the businesses.

why not payroll taxes too?

good thinking.