Japan Seeks India’s Cooperation on Nuclear Safety

Here's the link.

http://energybusiness.in/japan-seeks-indias-cooperation-nuclear-safety/

I don't know anything about relationships between Japan and India, but I don't see anything in that article that makes your point. Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like Japan wants to share technology with India.

Can you explain how it indicates that Japan wants Indians to do their cleanup and get exposed to radiation?

One of the major things that the Japanese need to do is get their economy moving. Opening trade with their neighbors seems reasonable. What am I missing?

India has its own technology and if they don't then also they should have their own.

Perhaps Japan may have piled up fuel and may be interested in selling out for clean up. Japan now must shift their dirty piled up fuel somewhere. You have to read in between the lines.

Whatever it may be, soon we will know as one more scam if deal gets materialized. Smell is already there and soon smoke will be visible. Nuclear deals are nasty.

Well, I know you're not one of the kooks that crop up here, and maybe you know information that we don't. You're doing some pretty heavy reading between the lines on this one.

I do know that technology can often times be purchased for far less than independently developing it..........................reinventing the wheel.

I think it's going to take more than your linked article to convince people that Japan is up to no good, in regard to India.

I'm not trying to argue, or even say that you're wrong. But, you're making a fairly serious charge here. It requires serious evidence, to be taken seriously.

Based on your link, if deals are being inked that will put Indians in jeopardy, wouldn't your own government be complicit?

My own trust with Japan technology has gone down the drain. Even top name manufacturers are cheating deliberately. I was shipped defective high voltage power supplies and after testing then I returned defective one and then I never received replacement for it. I asked for test report for the power supplies they shipped to me some 50 numbers. They said they don't test them as per their catalogs and only when user finds problem they ask these back. As I have already shipped back defective one and never received replacement I did not send other defective ones and keeping these for a Museum of defective parts manufacturers.

People in Japan do not hesitate in cheating. Perhaps they have reasons of their own. We do have lots of similar problems in India. Perhaps some countries may have clean minds. We don't have and it is very easy to smell rat.

People are agitating in India to get back black money in Swiss banks Government is using Police force to beat them. This is all over there on the net and it has become to the stage called rotten. Is your country free of such things.

No place is.

Companies that make and sell parts that don't work, may make a few people rich in the short term, but eventually they fail.

Welcome to the CR4 ranters club.

We have in the US (and I'm willing to bet these exist elsewhere) "businesses" that are in the business of making profit from the shipping and handling of defective products. That is, a company doesn't want to sell something that works, they want you to pay for it (and the S/H... ie their profit) and return it so the can resell it to the next guy! Sounds like that's what you've found.

As for Japan asking for help, I doubt the unscrupulous companies selling you junk power supplies have anything to do with nuclear safety or the like.

First they ship defective parts and you spend time and money in testing these. Then you pay for shipment back. They then ask money for testing. If you don't pay then they don't ship back and if you pay then they again ship back defective part. They are willingly cheating so they will never agree they are doing wrong but somehow this man has written to me that they don't test the performance and only go by design idea and just ship the parts. I finally lost $20000 in the cost and much more in testing these in various scientific laboratories. I now doubt every company which claims high and likely to cheat. These people from Japan sell cheap but they also cheat. If you go by what they put in catalogs, you are likely to be in problem and then no help coming to you as it was a cheating plan.

In another incidence:

Once Ortec USA shipped defective nuclear ADC and when I pointed out to them that it is working only half way, then their engineer came to India to verify my claim and after seeing the problem, he shipped one good tested ADC to all those ever purchased from Ortec. This was something of great value.

About Nuclear Technology Offer to India:

Scrap of those five reactor has to go somewhere as it will not be used in Japan. I suspect it will end up in some other country being sold as fresh material at cheap price. It may very well reach USA and other countries as it may be at through away price. Do you want it? Have it all, but I do not want it to land in India. Perhaps it can easily go to countries where evil people are looking for such things like cheap nuclear items for their cheap goals.

Japan coming to India's door for good offer? No way. There is serious rotten rat smell all over. Let them sit on all this. Japan collected lots of nuclear fuel from EU and now that 5 reactors down, it is all a big problem. Do you want to help them? Do it.

"Is your country free of such things".

Why ask? Refer

http://www.transparency.org/policy_research/surveys_indices/cpi/2009/cpi_2009_table will indicate the pathetic rank 84 corruption index of India.

We in India have lost all the moral authority to talk of corruption in any other country.

Tisk tisk. Your prejudice is showing.

I have to agree with kramarat.

Offering Japan's disaster management technology to India and other countries

Uhh? I believe Japan is offering either failed advice or results learned from their mistakes.

Ron

I think at this time they should not talk about nuclear technology to any one. Right now they can advocate against nuclear technology by saying; "look us us first and then decide if you want to imitate our situation". Danger is real one everywhere.

If a plane crashes due to design, is it appropriate to abandon all aerospace engineering? What about a boat that sinks? A bridge that collapses? etc etc etc...

Many of the rules and standards we live by today are written in the blood of those before us. That goes for nearly any trade or practice from engineering to baking, from construction to farming. We learn from the mistakes made.

Failure isn't falling down, it is refusing to get back up.

I think at this time they should not talk about nuclear technology to any one.

I agree. However has a root cause been established on this disaster?

Ron

"root cause been established on this disaster?"

This brings to mind the thought provoking theory of 'The Black Swan' by Nassim Taleb referring to a class of events that shares three essential features namely 1) Outliers in that they lie outside the bounds of rational expectations. 2) These outliers, the so called black swans, have huge impacts. 3) We tend to adopt rationalisations on damage after the event has wrecked havoc.
Similar to 9/11 New York terror attack, the crisis at Japan's crippled Fukushima Daiichi plant clearly was a Black Swan event as it was caused by crisis out side the expectations of system designers. Where the designers could foresee the possibility of severe earth quake and design a back up local power supply in the event of any incident, such an earthquake, that knocked out the grid, would have little impact. The local power generator itself was also designed to withstand a tsunami of 6.5 meters. This tsunami exceeded that figure and so knocked out the secondary power source. A battery remained, but it was designed to last only for four hours, hardly enough for the magnitude of the accident. This earthquake is the largest ever recorded in Japan and its associated secondary effects, the tsunami, were clearly outside the calculations of Fukushima's engineers, truly a Black Swan event.

The Black Swan is critical here because proponents of nuclear power have focused on the earthquake and tsunami, arguing that other regions of the world are more geologically stable than Japan. However that misses the point entirely. What is at issue in the Fukushima case is the cascading loss of power. That loss was outside of expectations. There may be other Black Swans leading to the loss of power generation and, thereby, resulting in an accident. This consideration is important if we have to use more nuclear power generated by more nuclear reactors. Do we really want to spread nuclear technology far and wide, knowing what we know about Black Swans, normal accidents and so on?

You're absolutely right that there will always be conditions/storms/events that a project wasn't designed to handle. Call them whatever you want, black swans, outliers, non-credible accidents, whatever. It doesn't matter. There is no reward without risk.

Let me provide one example... There are circumstances that cost millions in damage every year, has killed somewhere near 300 people, and happens roughly 7,000 times annually. Sounds bad right? It called modern aviation meeting birds. Aerospace guys have done a great job preventing deaths, crashes, etc, but, as you say, you can't account for everything. So there are incidents that destroy engines, planes, and sadly people.... and yet we continue to fly.

Let's look at one more example... In this one several thousand people die each year. Sounds horrible enough already right? This is called "COAL MINING"... a safe alternative to nuclear right?

There is risk for any reward and engineers do their best to minimize that. If you want to fly, planes are going to crash. If you want to mine coal, people will die. If you want zero risk, seal yourself inside a bubble.

Thanks for your nice analysis.

But unlike conventional energy sources the nuclear gene going out of control threaten annihilation or deadly mutilation of human race. The risk how ever remote is absolutely cataclysmic.

This is one of main reason for Germany planing to phase out nuclear power

I really sounds like you've read one too many Greenpeace pamphlets. There have been a few major nuclear accidents since the dawn of reactors. None of which threatened annihilation or mutated the human race.

I'm not preaching nuclear power is the holy grail for energy, but understand there is a COST and RISK for any alternative. Weigh the risks and rewards for each and every option then make a truly informed decision rather than spouting propaganda.

You are unfair. I quite capable of thinking independently without getting prejudiced by what you call "Greenpeace pamphlets"

It is appalling that so many take any criticism of nuclear power. Honest criticism is dismissed, largely, on the grounds that there is

1. No large scale death so far,
2. Since you are the consumer so don't take critical view
3. Assertion that nuclear people are doing a thorough planning for safeguards.

All these will have no meaning when nuclear melt down happen. The very idea of safeguard will seem ridiculous when a true tragic accident occurs.

There are some things that have consequences so terrible that playing with the notions that we can control, plan, and accept "cost and risk" are in themselves acts of hubris. Do we tell children it is fine to play with guns because there have been several children around the world, have done so and are still alive because nothing happened. Would you reasonably tell your child that? When it comes to the dangers of nuclear energy, we are like children.

Honest criticism is dismissed (no just uninformed), largely, on the grounds that there is (no rational basis for your statements)

1. No large scale death so far, (and yet you state it threatens annihilation, which for someone who understands nuclear designs I know this is nothing short of propaganda)
2. Since you are the consumer so don't take critical view (My view is from a more informed standpoint, not just as a consumer, but as an engineer, designer, operator and supervisor. The nuke industry has long been faced with public misunderstanding of what it is.)
3. Assertion that nuclear people are doing a thorough planning for safeguards. (By this statement it is obvious to me you haven't a clue as to the level of detail that gets looked at in a nuclear design. But don't feel bad, most people don't.)

Here's a thought, look up some statistics regarding accidents and the amount of power produced.... what you'll find may surprise you.

And not to turn this into a gun discussion, but I protect my children from the risks associated with guns by teaching them about guns and proper safety, not by demonizing firearms. Again, take a look at the accidents, are they the well trained kids playing with them or the ones whose parents are trying to lock them up in a bubble?

Ok, I couldn't resist...

So what do you think is the safest power source??

Take a look here... It brings fatalities and power sources into a little more light.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/03/deaths-per-twh-by-energy-source.html

Safest as of today looks Solar Power, Wind and Hydro power. Perhaps some ideas from Aliens may also help. Petroleum fuel is not for ever.

There can be no solution as long as modern man believe - to quote E. F. SCHUMACHER, that most of our problems are" mainly due to our inability to recognise that the modern industrial system, with all its intellectual sophistication, consumes the very basis on which it has been erected. To use the language of the economist, it lives on irreplaceable capital which it cheerfully treats as income".
Solar Power, Wind and Hydro power yes, will provide some relief.

But the more important issue to day that we are blinded by Keynesian philosophy that end justifying the means "Ethical considerations are not merely irrelevant, they are an actual hindrance, 'for foul is useful and fair is not. The time for fairness is no; yet. The road to heaven is paved with bad intentions".

We will be indeed bequeathing a very unhappy and unstable world to our future generations.

Thanks you for an interesting link.
I will happy if you can also indicate me an equally interesting information of our scientist and technologists ability to device safety rules and precautions of such perfection that the using, transporting, processing and storing of radioactive materials in ever increasing quantities will be made entirely safe, politicians and social scientists ability to create a world society in which wars or civil disturbances can never happen?

Excellent article. Too bad most people will never read it.

Or may fail to understand it.

You can lead a horse to water....

I tried.

Nuclear with Tsunami was not included. With changing weather and Tsunami attacks all over world, things will be different in coming years and history will be rewritten again. Those who have taken risk will also experience it. Those are scared and and are playing safe are much better.

Just because I have technology to land on moon, I can not place nuclearreactors wherever I wish and operate these in easy way. Bhopal tragedy was due to American technology in badly operated industry. Now that more nuclear foreign agencies are setting up nuclear plants, we may have another tragedy to be seen in future. Money greed is major factor and root cause of problem. Chaeap land at wrong place and prokect in wrong hand are also reasons.

Japan which plans very well for earth tremors so high and can not plan for Tsunami looks great flaws in planning. It has nothing to do with nuclear technology. It is the risk that was planned In every project risk factor is known to great extent and then it is accepted for a plan.

I'm sorry that you got taken advantage of by a Japanese company. Please show us something that ties this in with the Japananese nuclear incident.

You have been a great member here, and you know how things work. I'm trying to help you.

Prove it!

Show us something besides your personal agenda against the Japanese.

So far, it is only your opinion, that is based on getting ripped off by one company.

I'm completely open....................links.............news............anything.

Help us to understand.

For nuclear projects India has collaboration with many countries and perhaps Japan is looking for its share. We have no experience about what they in Japan's nuclear plans except that we came across this tragedy. I am only worried that their waste must not reach India and is a speculation due to Japan approaching India. We will never know what is cooking in political arena. We just make enough noise to scare the wrong doers and sometime we do succeed.

India by itself has very large number of engineers and scientists involved in nuclear technology research development. However, most of them retire before country can use their knowledge. India is very slow on nuclear path and takes almost decades to take a decision. Now that India is looking for more nuclear power, and willing to out source, countries are approaching India. I think Indians have not much problem with this kind of out sourcing nuclear power plants.

Technology coming for Indian air force from France can put anyone at shame. They use Apple computers with BASIC and obsolete PROM for logic. This is so with many that come to India. I think this trend is changing now.

We have very big problem with politicians who think countries tax money as their own money and they send it to their personal accounts and sit in their offices like a dictator after they get elected. They can use any amount of force to suppress common man's voice. People are very poor and deprived. Similar situation exists at many places in the world but it will not end in India as India is on growth path.

My concern is that other countries should not take advantage of our poor system. Our politicians act like Foreign rulers who implement things by force and take away countries money as their own wealth. People are trying to make change but it will not be easy. Not easy to make evil minds good overnight.

That's a familiar sounding theme that's going on around the world.

Keep us posted on any developements/agreements that come up regarding nuclear power.

India is looking for more energy sources and whatever they can put their hand to they are doing it right now. Anyone with ideas and abilities can form easy collaboration with any old or new Indian company and can look for good returns also.

However, make sure you don't get into trap of some wrong doer so ask many people if they know the person you are contacting. You can also join meetings arranged by www.sipa.org to know how to deal with projects in India.

While our politicians may be corrupt all through but they will not like India to be environmentally degraded and hence, projects must be very clean.

In spite of large population India grows food more than double it needs. Hence, food processing industries and related business are easy things here. Biotech projects are highly supported by Government so you can easily find place to set up industry at 1/10 the cost for land and with cheap power and labor etc. I am thinking to set up a vegetable dehydration plant.

Japan could not have possibly planned for an occurrence that deviates beyond what is normally expected of a situation and that would be extremely difficult to predict. Wall street crash, Indian ocean Tsunami, Tahir Square revolution and of course Japan nuclear accident are some of the examples.

I appropriately quote from the book "The Black Swan," by Nassim Nicholas Taleb.
"A Black Swan is an event that's "outside the realm of regular expectations, because nothing in the past can convincingly point to its possibility," The other two fundamental attributes of a Black Swan are: its impact is extreme; and it seems explainable and predictable only after the fact."

caused by crisis out side the expectations of system designers

ROOT CAUSE

Ron

I don't believe Japan was asking India for assistance. I think Japan was offering to collaborate with India on Nuclear energy, which is not such a bad idea since most of Japan nuclear technology comes from the US and India's comes from Russia and both have now experienced plant disasters. Make sense?

As far as Japan screwing you on sending you bad equipment, you get what you pay for and perhaps you should have had better guarantees and inspections/testing from reputable third parties.

I would certainly not buy anything from India or anywhere else without ensuring a complete inspection and guarantee, along with a financial guarantee from the seller. I've seen too many cases of finding rocks in the bags of rice when we were there.

This is one of the problems we are facing within the WTO. The third world nations are demanding a free and open, tarriff free trade with world markets without any requirements of quality, chemical control on foods and guarantee of content. examples recently under question is ecoli in Germany with suspicions of imports from India, foodstuffs from China into the US and Europe tainted with lead and other metals.

suspicions of imports from India, foodstuffs from China into the US and Europe tainted with lead and other metals.

Its not only foodstuff. We have had to introduce scanning of steel slabs with a giger (sp) counter due to a past history of radioactive contamination.

Ron

There may be a quite simple explanation:

India and China have bought from AECL, Canada some nuclear power reactors and are further developing these by well based decisions.

These are of the type that are moderated by heavy water and cooled by ordinary water and need only a much worse fuel than ordinary water cooled reactors.

Less fuel cost, much better (large factors) use of fuel, much better safety, the inherent beauties of maybe burning Plutonium and Thorium and the promise - if reprocessing is included - that the storage time of residual waste is down from 300 K years to 3 K years.

Japan never would ask China - so they may learn a lot from India - to sleep on past success is not a good basis for the future may be they are near awakening.

RHABE

(Just came back from Bangalore ICAMT, gave some tutorials there.)