Previous in Forum: Displacer vs. DP LT   Next in Forum: Uncertainty and Tolerance
Close
Close
Close
25 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93

Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/15/2011 5:57 AM

We've talked ourselves into a mass of confusion at work because the way we compensate for different optical materials has been questioned.

Here's the question in it's simplest form.

Different types of lenses have different back focal distances so that whatever image is being looked at will focus properly on the film or CCD sensor that is receiving the image, i.e. an F mount lens has a back focal distance of 46.5mm, a C mount would be 17.52mm. These values are always for focusing through air.

If I now place a sheet of glass with a refractive index of say 1.5 between the back of the lens & the sensor or film should I move the lens closer to the sensor because the glass will shorten the focal distance or further away from the sensor because the apparent focal point is now somewhere beyond the sensor.

We've talked this round in circles until nobody is sure now what the correct method is so I would be interested to hear some opinions.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#1

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 6:23 AM

Have you drawn a ray diagram?

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#3
In reply to #1

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 7:55 AM

Here's one to save you the effort:

(Ray paths through the lens are approximate - and don't matter anyway, because it's the effect of the flat glass that we're interested in).

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 7:58 AM

Look out for the extra chromatic aberration too.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 8:04 AM

My drawing's monochrome .

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#8
In reply to #3

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 8:15 AM

You seem to be agreeing with what Usbport is saying. The lens focal point (your down arrow) has moved left so I have to move the lens right to compensate.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 8:17 AM

Correct.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#10
In reply to #9

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 8:55 AM

That's what we've been doing but a suggestion has been made that it was wrong.

We did a practical check using our vision measuring system. We took a 5.6mm thick quartz plano optic & measured the thickness by focusing on an ink mark on the top & bottom faces. The measured thickness was 3.8mm which makes sense if you multiply the 3.8 by the quartz refractive index of 1.74.

This seems to me to confirm what has been said here.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#11
In reply to #10

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 9:18 AM

Yes - it ties up. Here's the ray diagram for this case:

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#6
In reply to #1

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 8:11 AM

I haven't drawn a diagram but thanks for yours.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 647
#2

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 7:24 AM

Light slows down in any medium with n>1; thus the convergence of the rays to a focal point is delayed by the index of the material and its thickness. The higher the value of n and the greater the thickness, the longer the beam will take to reach focus.

So in general, placing a filter in a converging light path before it has reached the focal point will cause the back focal distance to slightly increase.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#7
In reply to #2

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 8:13 AM

"will cause the back focal distance to slightly increase"

So I have to move the lens away from the sensor to compensate?

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Optical Engineering - Member Engineering Fields - Engineering Physics - Member Engineering Fields - Systems Engineering - Member

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Trantor
Posts: 5363
Good Answers: 647
#12
In reply to #7

Re: Focal adjustment to compensate for refractive index

06/15/2011 9:33 AM

Yes. Looks like you've gotten lots of help.

__________________
Whiskey, women -- and astrophysics. Because sometimes a problem can't be solved with just whiskey and women.
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#13

Re: Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/15/2011 10:39 AM

I think I'm convinced by all of this but we're going to set up a practical test to prove it to my workmates. I'll report back on the result.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#14
In reply to #13

Re: Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/15/2011 11:16 AM

Be interesting if you come up with a result different from this axiom in part 1 of Newton's Opticks (2nd edn., 1718):

Defin. IV.

"The Angle of Incidence is that Angle, which the Line described by the incident Ray contains with the Perpendicular to the reflecting or refracting Surface at the Point of Incidence."

Defin. V.

"The Angle of Reflexion or refraction, is the Angle which the line described by the reflected or refracted Ray containeth with the Perpendicular to the reflecting or refracting Surface at the Point of Incidence."

Axiom IV.

"Refraction out of the rarer Medium into the denser, is made towards the Perpendicular; that is, so that the Angle of Refraction be less than the Angle of Incidence."

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#15
In reply to #14

Re: Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/15/2011 11:51 AM

If our result contradicts Newton I think I'll be asking them to repeat the test.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1895
Good Answers: 44
#16

Re: Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/15/2011 12:23 PM

Your reasoning is correct.

There is a perfect "real world" example I discovered about CCD SLR cameras. When we put the lenses from our old film SLR on the newer digital (CCD) cameras, all of the photos were the slightest bit fuzzy. We couldn't figure it out (on our own) for the longest time. My wife was quite frusrated with her new (expensive!) camera.

A little searching on the 'net revealed that the focal length was changed by the protective cover ("glass") over the CCD, and different "optimized" lenses would need to be used.

One would think that the industry would have made the change in the camera so all of the old lenses could continue to be used. Oh, really? Guess you'll have to buy all new lenses...hmmm...our bad.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#17
In reply to #16

Re: Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/15/2011 12:29 PM

The CCD cover glasses are typically about 0.5-0.7mm thick glass so the back focal length adjustment would be about 0.2mm, you might get away with using a spacer between the lens & lens mount.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1895
Good Answers: 44
#18
In reply to #17

Re: Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/15/2011 12:52 PM

She was worth the new lenses. We needed higher quality ones anyway when she got a new camera (Canon 40d). I have the old one now.

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#19

Re: Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/16/2011 10:30 AM

Our test set-up confirmed what has been suggested in the posts here. It seems that the way we have adjusted focal distances on our cameras has been correct but has been done without really understanding the rationale behind it. Now, if I'm asked to justify what I'm doing I can explain it by reference to the optic material thickness & the refractive index.

Thanks for all the comments.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 734
Good Answers: 70
#20

Re: Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/16/2011 10:53 AM

You've got it backwards. Placing a glass window will lengthen the optical path, not shorten it. If the glass is 1 mm thick and has a refractive index of 1.5, it will add:

1 mm - (1 mm / 1.5) = .333 mm

to the optical path length.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1895
Good Answers: 44
#21
In reply to #20

Re: Focal Adjustment to Compensate for Refractive Index

06/16/2011 1:52 PM

Right...as in post #3 (visual aid).

Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#22
In reply to #20

Re: "You've got it backwards."

06/16/2011 4:47 PM

You are replying to the OP (original post), in which the question posed was open (i.e. no assertion was made as to whether the optical path would be longer or shorter). The OP (original poster) could not have "got it backwards".

If you were directing your reply to another post, please indicate which.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 734
Good Answers: 70
#23
In reply to #22

Re: "You've got it backwards."

06/16/2011 5:31 PM

Actually I only partially read the OP before responding, and (due to temporary dyslexia caused by a coffee shortage) I misread the question 'should I move the lens closer to the sensor' as a statement 'I should move…'. My equation for making a simple calculation of the change in path length is accurate and was intended to be helpful.

Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Not a New Member Hobbies - Musician - New Member Hobbies - Fishing - New Member

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Going under cover.
Posts: 9684
Good Answers: 468
#24
In reply to #23

Re: "You've got it backwards."

06/16/2011 6:08 PM

Coffee shortage - understood.

__________________
"Love justice, you who rule the world" - Dante Alighieri
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Old New Member

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: South east U.K.
Posts: 3695
Good Answers: 93
#25
In reply to #23

Re: "You've got it backwards."

06/20/2011 6:03 AM

I have the same problem if my hourly intake of tea is interrupted, I agree with your calculation & it fits with the method we use to determine focal distances.

__________________
I didn't have a really important life, but at least it's been funny (Lemmy Kilminster 1945-2015)
Register to Reply Off Topic (Score 5)
Register to Reply 25 comments

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

cuba_pete (3); JohnDG (8); johnfotl (2); Nigh (9); PWSlack (1); Usbport (2)

Previous in Forum: Displacer vs. DP LT   Next in Forum: Uncertainty and Tolerance

Advertisement