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In Wheel Electric Motors

07/01/2011 11:56 AM

Today I saw that Protean Electric have many patents, many of which concern In Wheel Electric Motors for Hybrid and Electric vehicles.

How does this square with keeping the unsprung weight to a minimum?

Why not have the motors inboard with power shafts to the wheels ? - and in a more clement environment?

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#1

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/01/2011 2:17 PM

There is probably a significant weight advantage with a motor in wheel design. While unsprung weight alone is greater, lower total weight, elimination of driveshaft constraints on suspension and chassis, as well as independant power at each wheel, could offer more advantages...depending on the goals.

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#2

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/01/2011 2:18 PM

I did an all-fields search on Protean Electric on the USPTO search website and it returned no patent hits. So I don't know what patents you might be referring to, but I can think of a couple of reasons for patenting a design like this. 1. Some other company already owns patents for a design with the motors inboard. 2. There may be some other feature, such a regenerative braking, that yields a better overall design when the motors are mounted on the wheels rather than inboard.

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#3

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/01/2011 8:11 PM

You're right, unsprung weight is a huge issue, as is low torque.

The several demo vehicles that have been shown in the last few years (Ford F150, BMW Mini, Volvo) use wheel motors on all four wheels to get acceptable torque. One motor is hideously expensive, 4 are astronomical.

The motors would need to be a small fraction of projected cost and about half the weight to be viable.

You don't hear people saying "I'd buy a LEAF if it just cost a lot more and had motors in its wheels." The motor is not the problem.

If the LEAF were less expensive and had greater range it would sell better. Wheel motors will not reduce cost and will not increase range more than perhaps 4%.

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#4

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/01/2011 10:40 PM

An electric wheel motor may be sort of "inside out" (stator in, rotor out) compared to a typical motor. I would guess that efficiency would be less, but don't know.

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#5

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/01/2011 10:42 PM

Gosh, somebody bought a patent on in-wheel electric motors? Porsche was using them for low-speed work 90 years ago. I wouldn't use them on anything with the least pretense to sophistication.

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#14
In reply to #5

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/07/2011 8:04 AM

Even if there was a prior patent, it would have expired in 17 (?) years. A patent is generally granted if the invention is unique, novel and useful, so prior technology would exclude a patent for this concept.

Now, design a light weight motor that can withstand the shock & vibration of in wheel environments and that would be an enhancement worth patenting. (would not be surprised to see something of that sort being worked on)

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#6

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/02/2011 12:41 AM

A patent doesn't mean it's a good idea - or works - or is practical - or is economic.

In this case such a patent would be about 'improvements' to the prior art.

One obvious one, being that of mass to produce a given torque (at low rpm) - though such is largely demonstrated in the F&P "Smart drive" washing machine - 'application' to 'traction' might be considered 'novel' in the vagaries of the patent system.

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/02/2011 1:37 AM

"A patent doesn't mean it's a good idea - or works - or is practical - or is economic"

So true. I have seen many prototypes of EV's employing GB, Gearless-Brushless motors for all-wheel use, and it appears to be the next big thing, at first glance. The looming question is, "Why haven't any of these prototypes been employed in real world EV's?" The answer is simple, and that is that they do not work in real life environs.

The cost of GB motors is less than conventional drive systems, and there is a total weight loss on the drawing board. The problems come when the EV is taken out of the lab and onto the normal thoroughfares of the world, full of potholes, sharp ess curves, millions of vibrations...per week, and suddenly the marriage is over. Consider just one fact: The very close spacing of the rotor and stator for maximum EMF generation, and the punishment that the wheels (rotors) endure on a simple trip to the market. In order to maintain the free-space between the two, the wheel and the stator assembly, and all of the adjoining components must be beefed up considerably, in order to avoid a catastrophic failure of a very expensive and integral part of the EV. So what was cheaper, easier, lighter and less maintenance on graph paper, turns into toilet paper in practice.

That being said, there is a market for the GB motors in slower speed, lower r.p.m. vehicles such as scooters and electric chairs, and those are the products that are enjoying the efficiency of cost and scale for GB's.

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#8

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/02/2011 2:03 AM

Citroen had inboard disc brakes on their FWD ID19, etc. Worked very well. Very soft but tight ride, cornered like a bandit on rough surfaces. I believe they used Rzeppa universals, also.

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/02/2011 5:42 AM

Citroen also had inboard disks for the handbrake on the GS, GSA, and this layout prompted the thought that you could have your independent electric motors inboard with a similar set of drive shafts to the wheels.

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#9

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/02/2011 2:17 AM

The Seimens Co. came out with a design for in-wheel electric motors about three years ago. You might want to have a look at their design. Looks like it might be easy to replace if damaged.

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#11

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/04/2011 4:51 AM

If the potential issues with in wheel motors DOES get sorted, what do people feel about the huge potential benefits of being able to drive 4 wheels independently in any of the 4 quadrants of operation?

On face value it would transform the whole driving experience if you could brake on one wheel but drive on another!

And if we had 4 wheel drive ......!!!

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#13
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Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/06/2011 1:25 PM

On face value it would transform the whole driving experience if you could brake on one wheel but drive on another!


This is roughly what stability control and roll-over control prevention systems do, and you're right that this would be both a little easier and somewhat more effective with truly independent wheel control. (Although these systems are already quite effective: power can be increased to one wheel by braking the wheel on the opposite side of a differential, etc.)


These features take over when the driver has essentially lost control to some degree, so I think that independent power and braking control over each wheel will not really transform the driving experience, other than allowing the driver to be a bit less engaged. A Volvo with roll-over control is no more fun to drive than one without, and is in fact less fun to drive than an older Porsche without any stability control at all.


Certainly, you could do skid steer, which would dramatically change the driving experience, but few people would like the experience and the tire wear rates.


All these features could be implemented with inboard motors, of course. The salient feature of a wheel motor is very high torque, (and relatively low maximum rpm) which has to come at the cost of very heavy windings -- and that means high unsprung weight, the enemy of good vehicle dynamics.

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#12

Re: In Wheel Electric Motors

07/05/2011 8:15 PM

The cost of powerful electric motors is going to be expensive, due in part to the cost of the copper needed. In other auto motive uses. Low power high speed electric motors with gear reducers are becoming more common. Examples are starter motors, power window motors, power door lock motors and HVAC door motors. 3,4, or more small high speed motors geared as planetary gear-sets might be workable.

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