Bad GFI

Please check, may be your neutral was the problem.

No, I think I've pretty well determined that it was the breaker. The sparking is small enough that I may not have noticed it before when hooking up neutrals. It's probably a dumb question. I just want to be sure that it is a normal occurrence.

All other GFIs and other breakers are working fine.

Sparking between two neutrals? I'd check them both against ground with a voltmeter. That doesn't sound right at all. Are there any 2-way switches that might be using the neutral? In which case you could get a nasty shock.

Definitely, a neutral bus to ground test. Just to check if your neutral line is assured as ground.

I'm getting a tiny bit of sparking between the bar itself and the neutral I'm hooking up.

I've been googling. I do have neutral wires doubled up under screws, it looks like this is a no no. It was like this when I bought the house. I got the house for a good price, but lots of things were done improperly. I'm fixing them one at a time.

I don't know if there's room for another busbar in the panel.

I'm getting the uncomfortable feeling that everything has to be checked and redone to make sure it's right.

I don't know where the inspectors were when the place was built in 1983. I knocked out a wall in a chase a couple of years ago and found a free hanging birds nest of live wires all held together with wire nuts. It took me two weeks to trace them all out, install junction boxes etc.

Call an electrician

I don't think there's any immediate risk of fire. It's been sitting like that for years.

I do have a freaking mess on my hands though. Lots of doubled up wires on the busbars..................grounds with neutrals, double neutrals, etc. All spaces are filled.

Undoing stuff that was done wrong is so much harder than just starting from scratch.

Let's see, rather than taking things apart now, I should be able to take my meter, shut off one breaker at a time, test the wires at the busbar, and at least be able to isolate which circuit the juice is coming from.

I have had a real electrician friend of mine over..................he just scratched his head. It's tedious, messy stuff. Fortunately, I've managed to trace and label every circuit from the panel out.

I'll be safe. When it comes time to get in there and do major stuff, I don't even trust shutting off the main..................I pull the meter outside.

Will do. I'm not pulling the meter now. I meant when it comes time to redo the wiring properly on the inside of the panel. Some of the holes on the busbar have three wires behind one hold down screw.

Thanks for the help guys. Now I know I have a problem.

I'm not getting into this today. I tried, but I've got a little hangover, and I'm smart enough not to be screwing around in the panel today. I just ran an extension cord to the toaster oven for now. That's the only thing I need. Yes...........it's a beefy extension cord. No problem.

I'm off next week, so I'll jump into it on Monday. I'll post my results here. Now I feel obligated, while I'm at it, to redo the grounds and neutrals the way they should be. I probably could just replace the bad GFI breaker and call it a day. I can't though. I'll get it figured out.

Whatever is causing the bleed back to the busbar is not obvious...........of course.

It could even be in a wall somewhere.

I'm not 100% positive on this but I'm almost positive code allows 2 connections per lug on a neutral bus-bar IF they are the same gauge and type of wire (stranded, solid).

I have no idea if your local code applies here. I've seen doubles a zillion times in California in residential and commercial applications.

Code does not allow two neutrals per connection, only one under each screw. Ground wires can be doubled up though. Been that way since at least 2008.

One thing I would check when you have the time is to inspect all the receptacles to make sure they are wired with the correct polarity. DIY types can easily overlook the polarity when replacing a receptacle.

Thanks ron,

Polarity is good. Part of the reason this house is taking me so long to finish, is that if it's a cut on some wood or an electrical connection, I check everything three times before I do it. The other reason it's taking so long is because I'm tired of it.

you need a dead line

the sound of one wooshing by usually motivates me

"usually the last thing you check" If you have located the problem, why continue checking? In this case I would continue checking. From the sound of it there are multiple problems.

"I am not an electrician but I can handle the wiring". That is what the guy who wired it in the first place thought!

The guy that originally built the place told me he was an engineer. I think he lied.

Give me a little credit. Household wiring is not rocket science. Before doing anything, I read books on the subject as well as lots of internet research. I'm also not an HVAC guy, but I fix and maintain my own equipment. I'm not a mechanic, but I work on my own vehicles, including a couple of successful engine rebuilds. I'm not a hardwood floor guy, but I ripped all of my old flooring out and installed new hardwood floors. I'm not a tile guy, but I do my own tile work. I'm not a carpenter, but I ripped out all of my old doors and frames and installed solid core doors, crown moulding, baseboard, window frames, etc. I'm not a plumber, but I ran all of my own plumbing on a bathroom remodel. New sink, toilet, tub, etc., all had to be tied into the existing system.

Thanks for giving me a chance to brag.

here's a solution for a weatherproof outside outlet

it uses 2 cheap $7 disconnects

the main service panel is directly behind, so the the top one is fused

notice the cover is closed & the cord is plugged in

I also have one on the wall of the house, which pulls power off the load side of a gfi duplex outlet

the beauty of this arrangement is it's metal so it won't break the way those $15 plastic covers will, for about $10 including the 2gang box, standard outlet, metal cover plate

Nice.

Fortunately, my panel is in the basement.

I wonder what everyone else thinks about induction causing the sparking?

I agree with you. I too am multi talented (jack of all trades), but there is always something new to learn. We cannot all be proficient in every skill. There are people who have no skills what-so-ever. I have always tried to be self-sufficient when it comes to fixing things. I marvel at those who can't even replace a switch or any of the common things around a house that needs routine maintenance. When I am stumped with a problem, before calling in a "professional", I study through the problem as you are doing. I will sit down and think deeply about it. If necessary,I will call for advise as you are doing. Sooner or later, the problem will be solved. Since this occurred recently without warning, my instinct would tell me it has to do with a wire coming in contact with something it should not contact. It was probably caused by poor installation and done by someone who didn't follow code. Engineers are not electricians; don't assume because he is an engineer, that he knows everything. Good luck.

exactly Ronseto

even if I do have to call an expert, I want to know enough they don't sell me a turboencabulator

Is the power side of the circuit hooked up? if so, is there any equipment plugged in? especially something constantly on, a clock for example? This would raise the potential of the circuit neutral until connected to the bus, when the current could flow.

If you have a meter, you could check, at the breaker, for continuity between the power and the neutral.

You had mentioned a birds nest of wires. Maybe a cross of neutrals from another circuit. Instead of trying figure it out to isolated two circuits they just connect all the neutrals together.

Also I have seen where some one ran 12/3 and fed two circuits on the same neutral.

Since the other GFI works, maybe you have a dead one or one with more sensitivity? How does the breaker come in the picture?

Hello Kramarat

The GFIs detect current unbalance between Line and Return lines at their output, not their input, so leave all other GFIs and main supply lines alone.

The one that is tripping has a leaking appliance connected to it, and a few milliamps are enough to trip it; you are in fact proving this when you see the small spark at the disconnection of the neutral circuit.

As Fredski sugests, isolate the loads, one at the time 'till you see no more spark and measure a depicable voltage of a few millivolts between the neutral line and neutral bar.

Eliminate or repair the defective appliance, which, before becoming apparent, was increasing your electricity bill.

In the event of a leakage thru wiring, disconect one by one as with the appliances, and if this is the case, replace it.

For God's sake Kramarat, don't twist the bare tips before insertion into the terminals, this is awfull, makes a poor connection, heats up, wires don't fit well, and twisted copper filaments cut each other under pressure, you don't want any hot wires come loose.

Regards

Thanks

I actually had one problem that turned into two. The GFI breaker went bad. The small sparking was noticed by accident. Something is feeding electricity back through either a ground or neutral. It's not necessarily on the same circuit that my kitchen is on. I'll chase it down, but it's going to take some time. It could literally be anywhere.

First, make sure your panel is BONDED and GROUNDED.A difference in potential could exist at the panel itself.If panel is a sub fed panel, make sure it is NOT BONDED, but make sure it is GROUNDED.

Make certain that cold water piping is bonded to the panel and the ground rod.

Sn unbonded hot water heater can put voltage on the neutral .

Kitchen receptacles are subject to a lot of moisture, so check the ones on the side of the sink that were tripped.

You have compromised the safety of the other GFIC by adding another circuit to the breaker.

It is possible the original wiring did not use a dedicated neutral for the kitchen G Fault circuit and this is the source of your spark.

There are 3 other GFI breakers in the panel, all behaving and testing normally. Cold water piping is all pvc.

I've got one of those little plug in testers for receptacles that I'll try today. I might get lucky.

At this point I think Fredski is on the right track, about it possibly being an insect a little moisture, etc. as the cause. The spark is very weak at the busbar.

I'll find the culprit, but once I isolate the circuit, I don't know of any other way to go about it than a visual inspection of each junction on the path. It would be easier if it was a full blown short.

A Ground Fault is when the current in the hot leg doesn't match the current returning in the neutral. The other possible path is the ground. So your small spark is more than enough to fire a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, just like it was designed to do. Something's got leaky insulation, or is connected wrong. Be careful. The GFCI is designed to cut off the circuit just before you're electrocuted, and you're trouble shooting it live, since you saw a spark. Call an electrician. You're over your head in shark water.

There are lots of possibilities, but I think that one of them is that the spark was caused by induction, and is both normal and safe.

That's a new one. It is a very tiny weak spark. I feel as if I should check things out anyway though.

The GFI breaker that is bad as well as the others in the panel had behaved normally for at least two years before this. I was just going to throw another breaker in there.

So where is the small amount of current coming from with induction?

Door bell and thermostat transformers

No doorbell, but I do have a thermostat. I also have a 3 way dimmer switch. It's a push button with a slider above it. When it is in the off position, a tiny light turns on in the middle of the push button so it can be seen in the dark. I wonder if that could come into play? Again, the sparking is faint, barely noticeable.

If it's dark in your cellar it could be 20 - 50 mA. I.e. a LED, or a TV on standby, or a clock, or just inductance from the live circuit.

If worried, use the AC amps scale to quantify the draw, as voltage will tell you nothing with a high impedance digital meter. It will just show 'floating' mains V.

It's the ones that go pop, or blind you and spray metal about, that I think most above are imagining.

I'm leaning that way also. No pops, no big arcs, and that corner is was fairly dark, I replaced the bulb by the panel. Now that it's lit up, I don't know if I would have noticed the sparking.

A tiny spark when connecting the breaker to the neutral bus is normal. All GFCI devices contain an electronic circuit which measures the incoming and outgoing current and operates the device if an imbalance is detected. This is the source of the spark. If it worries you, make the neutral connection first then install the breaker. It's easier this way anyhow.

That makes sense. In fact I noticed it as I was disconnecting the bad GFI from the busbar..........before I had pulled the fuse.

Whatever the voltage is, it's tiny. Like I said, I'm surprised I noticed the spark, it was so small.

Tomorrow just to be sure, I'm going to check everything out along the circuit that the GFI was on, do a quick test on my outlets throughout the house, and throw in a new GFI breaker.

Before I go on an unnecessary troubleshooting adventure tomorrow. I'm thinking that if this small amount of sparking is normal, in theory, if I shut off the remaining GFI breakers, there should be no sparking at all on the busbar. Again, in theory, this would eliminate any chance of leakage from another source.

That would make things a lot easier.

Most likely it is caused from a ground wire improperly connected somewhere or rubbing against a hot wire. If you are daisy chaining switches you might check to make sure none of your hot wires are in contact with any boxes, you may have a frayed wire or part of one missing its outer coating. I would suggest checking your main ground to the breaker, but since all others seem to work correctly this doesn't seem the likely cause. Also you haven't mentioned but did you use copper or aluminum wire and check to see that the GFI is certified for the type of wire you installed. It will say in the GFI itself. One certified for aluminum cannot be used for copper and vice versa, at least not safely. I would first disconnect all but one switch to the chain and see if the sparking still ocuurs. Also you have not stated how many switches and outlets are connected to this one GFI. Also look closely at all of them and look for any small cracks or breaks

Everything is copper. I think it's three outlets on this GFI. Never had problems in the past.

I'm going to check things out tomorrow. I'd think a ground wire rubbing against a hot wire would give me a full blown short.

It depends on its nearness, electricity can arc. But as someone said it may be nothing more than GFI breakers can have arcs since ground and hot must have a check system else GFI would not work. Check the GFI and make sure it is rated for copper wire and that you did not grab one rated for aluminum accidentally.I would start with your first connection and disconnect all others from it, at least this will help narrow down the cause if it is a wrong ground wire position.

http://www.elocalelectricians.com/blog/what-is-gfi-outlet-576

http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/afci_circuit_breakers.htm

http://www.thecircuitdetective.com/index.htm

Second link did not set right, here is what it should have been, I have found it usefull in the past.

Thanks!

Kramarat, I feel your pain. Our house, circa 1995, has one lousy 100 amp panel, completely full. Some of the breakers are GFI, some of the outlets are GFI and some ordinary outlets are daisy-chained off of GFI outlets, and of course none of it is documented. Not to highjack your thread, but I wonder if there is an optimum plan for GFI protection; should the protection be at the box or at each outlet?

Either way works

if you have a string of outlets daisy chained together making the 1st one in the string a gfci, is probably going to be cheaper than a breaker

if you have a hot tub [220] or the like you need a breaker

unless you frequently drop your blow dryer in the toilet or toaster in the sink, you don't need gfci's

permit & code wise is a different story

I don't think it really matters. Mine had GFI breakers in the panel, so I just stuck with that. Daisy chaining outlets off a GFI outlet is fine, just make sure to place your GFI outlet at the beginning of the run you want protected.

No documentation with this place either, plus things were done wrong. It took me a while, but I was able to trace out every wire and circuit in this place. All lines are labeled in the basement and which fuse goes to what. None of it was labeled, not even the fuses.

I don't think this is a real big deal. I would like to add another busbar, or get a bigger one and clean things up on that end.

Hey guys.

Now I'm contemplating not replacing the GFI breaker, but going with a standard breaker and switching over to GFI outlets as these breakers go bad.

The GFI breakers are expensive, and like most everything else I buy, they are made in China and they don't last.

I notice on most contruction anymore, only the GFI outlets are used, and I haven't heard anything about failure being common.

You have my permission

That would be my plan

gfci breaker $20 more than a regular one

gfci outlet $8 more than a standard

wire must have been cheap when they built this modular

the outlets in both bathrooms [opposite ends] run on one gfci

You can put in a standard breaker, just make sure when you install the GFI outlet that it trips manually when you hit the test button and comes back on when you reset it. If it doesn't then you have a serious problem somewhere. If it trips and resets you are probably ok. Was the breaker tripping an ongoing problem or was that the first time it occurred? If its only a now and then problem the odds are you are perfectly ok.

It was fine for about 2 years. Nothing has changed, and the problem just came up.

I have rectified all of the problems from the panel out through the house..................as far as I know.

I am willing to bet you probably got hold of a bad breaker, it happens in mass production, where only one of every 100 or 1000 or 10,000 is checked depending on the level of quality control. As long as you install GFI outlets near water sources (and now in bedrooms) to meet code, you should be fine since this is the first time its happened in 2 years. Its more common than you think as electricity from lines coming into your house is not as constant as it should be. If it was we would have no need of power surge protectors except for lightning strikes. Likewise a dimming bulb once in awhile can be no more than a fluctuation in the power grid, not necessarily a problem unless it happens all the time.

Code calls for GFI in bedrooms now? If that's true, they should have just gone ahead and made the whole house GFI protected. Bathrooms, kitchens and bedrooms pretty much cover it.

We don't have to retro fit the entire planet just because the code changed

you're only replacing, since there is no documentation who's to say, it wasn't always like that

You're up early.

I'm not going to. Everything in this place only has to be up to 1983 codes.

Whenever I do something new though, I do keep an eye on the recent codes. Eventually I'm going to sell this place and I don't want an inspection nightmare when the time comes.

we're getting ready to switch to a new homebase, my sleep is a little disrupted

there will be tales of epic dysfunction

in this county there has only been a system of building permits in place since 05

the attitude is very libertarian for the most part, depending on the source of funding, insurance...

Actually no, new code calls for an AFCI (arc fault circuit interrupter) in the panel for the bedrooms.It is not required on existing services. It is related to extention cords that fray and arc causing a fire. They are $30+ a pop and cannot be used interchangeable with GFCI breakers.

If a GFCI outlet doesn't trip or re-set, double-check to be sure the line and load are in the proper locations and that the line-hot is with the line-neutral ans the same with the load. There are ten ways to get it wrong and only one way to get it right!

It sounds as though the neutral and the earth are in contact downstream of the connection. That would be the reason for both the breaker tripping and the spark.

With the circuit cable(s) disconnected from the board, measure ohms between neutral and earth conductors looking downstream. If less than, say, a megohm, chase through the wiring rigorously to locate the connection and remove it.

The one in the bothy turned out to be a brass woodscrew, connected to an earthed light fitting, that had just kissed a buried neutral conductor in the wall, bringing the neutral and earth into contact. It took a week to find it, thanks largely to CR4 subscriber masu's encouragement from the other side of the world.....

I'm going to make a trip around the whole house this morning with my plug in tester just to make sure. Then install a regular breaker in the panel, and a GFI outlet in the wall at the beginning of the run. If there's still a problem somewhere, the GFI outlet will trip. If the tiny sparks are normal, then the only problem I had was a bad breaker.

Tiny sparks are far from normal. They indicate the dis. board neutral being connected to earth downstream of the neutral conductor connection; if there were no ground-to-earth connection then there wouldn't be any sparks!

A plug-in tester will not help. One needs to measure ohms on the disconnected circuit between earth and neutral, and elimante all unwanted connections between them. It will take time, and it is important to be methodical.

The voltage is small. Couldn't I just take my meter, and with everything still hooked up in the panel, put the negative contact on the cable to ground, and check each ground wire for voltage with the positive contact. The ground wires are bare copper and I could do this away from the busbar. I'm thinking that even though everything is slightly energized, if the juice is backfeeding from a ground wire, I should get a little higher reading on the guilty wire.

Okay guys.

So far the official CR4 consensus is............sparking is normal.......and.......sparking is not normal.

I've been googling this morning, and while I didn't find the exact answer, I did find an article stating that loose connections at the busbar can cause arcing. Since I noticed the sparks after I had loosened and was removing the neutral from the bar, this makes sense.

The breaker was turned off, but the neutral wire was doubled up with another one from another breaker that wasn't turned off.

This sounds plausible to me.

I'm going to do my routine checks this morning, go buy the breaker and GFI outlet, and put them in. Taking the necessary precautions not to get myself shocked or electrocuted, of course. I'll post results here.

does it spark more than once?

once could be the gfci unit discharging a small amount of stored energy

a spark everytime you touch would be a path that needs resolved

There's more than one busbar. To get to the screw to remove the neutral for the GFI breaker that I was removing, I had to remove a couple of others that were above it, (I didn't turn off those breakers). While things were loose, I noticed the sparking. I took a pair of insulated needle nose pliers and, to make sure I wasn't seeing things, just wiggled the loose wires around within the busbar slots. The sparking was continuous and very small, like hooking up a live DC circuit in a car to something small, like a lightbulb circuit.

....except it's the voltage on the neutral, always there as a result of phase imbalance elsewhere on the supply network, being short-circuited to earth via the extraneous earth connection.

The fault is still there, and may be detected by the replacement breaker. After all, that is its job.

Do please carry out the earth-to-neutral resistance check outlined above and remove the extraneous neutral-to-earth connection on the circuit before connecting the new breaker.

there may be a jumper between the 2 [neutral & earth] in the main panel, which can trick you

That's why disconnecting the cable from the panel is part of the procedure.

The fault IS in the cable downstream of the panel!

I usually make the jumper easy to find in the main panel & run the neutral back to the panel for each circuit when adding additional circuits

it can be tempting to cheat especially when multiple circuits pass through a junction box

I'm back in school at the moment.............internet research. I do want it right.

I've got neutrals and grounds both mixed and doubled on the busbars. Interesting that on the electrical forums, the professionals can't seem to agree on what's right.

As far as code in the US, (and probably the best way to go), all neutrals should be on one busbar, one wire per hole. Grounds together on the ground busbar. Some localities allow doubling up of grounds, some don't.............I think it's probably okay on the grounds. Doubling the neutrals is done by professionals in practice, but it is a code violation in US.

Better upgrade to the 300 amp service with lots of neutral lugs

if there's room add more busbars, it's a pain to double up with solid wire anyway

many times you see grounds on one side neutrals on the other, looks nice, makes your life easy in the future.

if it all looks tidy most of the time an inspector will barely glance at it

You put me to work on this. It looks like in 2002 the NEC changed to only 1 wire per lug. So the date of original construction is a point.

Hope this helps.

Thanks Fredski, that's one of the sites I hit earlier.

One nice thing about me getting so anal about everything I do on this place, is that the end result is usually better than I could have hired someone to do.

Plus I'm usually a little smarter in the end.

If it is the main panel, mixing neutrals and grounds is OK. If it is a sub-panel, fed by a breaker in the main panel, then the sub-panel must have seperate neutral and ground bus bars which are insulated from each other. The only location that the neutral and ground busses are allowed to be electrically connected ("bonded") is ath the enclosure which contains the first disconnecting means. All other panels downstream must have seperate conductors for the neutral and ground systems. Not having it this way can cause GFCI malfunction due to the possibility of current "sneaking" out thorough a different path-way. It sees a difference and does it's job, opening the circuit.

Exactly. That was the problem over here.

Yes, mixing grounds and neutrals is alright on the same busbar, but doubling a ground with a neutral, or two neutrals in the same slot is against code.

Thanks for the info on the sub panel. Tht project is coming up. I downloaded the information yesterday on proper installation.

I appreciate your suggestion and concern PWSlack, but after spending yesterday reading, and given the fact that nothing had been touched or changed, and everything had worked fine for a couple of years leading up to the breaker tripping, I'm going to go for it and install the new breaker.

I know this sounds bad, but the way I look at it, if I take the necessary precautions to prevent myself from getting shocked, install the new non- GFI breaker, hook everything up, and turn the breaker on................one of two things is going to happen............either everything's going to work fine..............or something's going to fry, in which case, I'll know exactly where the problem is.

I will test all receptacles after hooking up.

Please ensure all CR4 readers stand back before energising....

Good point. Yes, I was standing on a small wooden ladder for all panel work, (not on the bare concrete floor), work with one hand when possible, and when flipping the new breaker, I stood as far from the panel as I could with my face turned in the opposite direction.

Safety is always #1. That's why it took me two days of reading and thinking before I undertook a 20 minute job.

It really doesn't matter what the job is. If it's not something you do every day, do your homework before starting.

Thanks for the help PW.

Not sure if you this has yet been suggested but... Best tool in the novice or part-time residential electrician's tool kit is the three-prong gfi circuit tester, three dummy LEDs to indicate common wiring faults (open neutral, ground, hot/neutral reversed etc.) and also a gfi trip button to test 'normal' outlets protected downstream of a gfi outlet or breaker. I'm an ME by training but spent several years working the electrical aisles of my local home depot during college where I encountered just about every residential wiring problem known to man. The above tester (~10 bucks?) can definitely help identify or exclude possible faults. Good luck!

Woops, after reading the rest of the discussion I assume the plug in tester didn't indicate any faults on the circuit in question?

Thanks, I haven't actually done anything yet. I kind of got sidetracked into reading about GFIs and panel wiring. I also need to install a 100 amp sub panel in my shop at some point, so I'm getting up to speed on that too. I'm reaching the conclusion that my entire problem is a worn out GFI breaker, which apparently they are notorious for.

Thanks for everyone's responses. Everything is fixed and working properly.

The "engineer" that built the house did other things that were either unnecessary or incorrect that I'm going to have to deal with.

One thing that wasn't necessary, is that he ran the entire house with #12 wire. Not a big deal, but overkill for sure. It makes everything a little harder.

Here's the bad part. Along with the #12 wire, he thought it would be a good idea to run the entire house from 20 amp breakers.........every one of them. The problem- typical household outlets and switches, (which are installed), are 15 amp. In my mind, this would run the risk of a potential fire causing short, without the breaker tripping when it should. Tell me if I'm not thinking right.

As far as the sparking is concerned. Whether it's induction, or just from the fact that the neutrals are cycling juice back to the panel, sparks from touching the busbar with a screwdriver or something would not be considered normal. However, in the case of jiggling a loose neutral within a hole in the busbar, I think a little sparking would be considered a normal occurrence.

Thanks again.

I'm having trouble thinking of a case where having too much wire was a problem

running #12 to the branch for the kitchen is common, you may have the fridge, toaster & microwave all running at the same time

problems are almost always at the connections

a 20 amp breaker will detect a dead short same as a 15

cords & Outlets will start to melt & smell funny, if you try to pull 15, let alone 20 amp through em

I've learned a few things in the process.

Nothing wrong with # 12. It's the 20 amp breakers running to 15 amp outlets that's a (potential) problem. A short in a 15 amp outlet will trip a 20 amp breaker.................but not as fast as it would a 15 amp breaker. I want the breaker to trip before I smell something burning.

You don't want the fridge, toaster and microwave on the same circuit. A condition that I had corrected when I moved in.

See here.

Let me know when you want to sell the house, I'll buy it. I'll know everything has been replaced and/or upgraded to current code

It's coming along. I'm doing a complete kitchen tear out and remodel in Oct. along with new hardwoods downstairs...................that will finish the inside. Then it's time to start ripping off crap masonite siding and replacing with Hardi Board. It's kind of my nest egg. When I go to sell it in 20 years, I hope to get a lot more than I paid for it.

It was abandoned and overgrown when I bought it, now it's appraised at $70,000 more than I paid for it 9 years ago. Did I mention that I'm slow? My wife will tell you.

Actually you do not want to put a 15A breaker on your outlet branches. The outlets are typically rated for 15A with a pass thru of 20A. Code requires 12 ga, 20A breakers minimum on all branch outlet runs. As you probable already have found out code requires two separate branches for the kitchen countertop outlets. These are on separate breakers and only countertop appliances (e.g., no refrigerator, dishwasher, garbage disposal, etc.).

You're right. I'm in better shape than I thought. I replaced the bad breaker with a 20 amp, and also pulled the 2 affected 15 amp countertop outlets and replaced with 20 amp.

The microwave is on it's own circuit. The circuit that I just fixed has a toaster oven and a coffee pot on it..................I guess I should put the toaster oven on it's own circuit, but I've only got so many slots in the panel.

When I do my kitchen tear out in Oct. it's going to involve running new lighting, etc., I figure I'll take care of any remaining minor issues then...............the main one being that I want to tidy up the birds nest of wires in my panel.

Depending on the breaker type sometimes you can get doubles that are as wide as a regular

Yeah, I've seen those. I'm going to have to redo the panel in the fall and get everything completely copacetic. It's safe for now, but still messy.

I would look for an interrupted neutral wire, making sure that all neutrals have zero resistance between each other and the neutral bus bar in the panel. Especially in your "rat's nest" situation, there may be loose wire nut or screw terminal connections.

In particular, if two neutrals from separate circuits are tied to each other, but not tied back to the neutral bus, you can get a "floating neutral" of any voltage from zero to 120 with respect to the busbar neutral. If the two circuits in question are from opposite sides, but approximately equal in impedance, they may divide the voltage so that things look normal (no overly dim or bright lights, for instance). But when the common point is then connected to a good neutral, there can be a spark of voltage anywhere in the 0-120 range.

Tracking this down can be laborious.

Nice explanation Tornado. Ties in with what PWSlack was saying.

That does sound very laborious. Since everything had been fine before, and everything is working and fine now, I'm going to hold off on that. The rat's nest has been corrected. I took everything apart and installed junction boxes.

Do you think this is the only case that sparking could occur?

I didn't go into exact detail in my OP, but the sparking occured when I loosened up a live neutral to get to the screw to remove the neutral to my bad breaker. I probably should have shut off the breaker to the neutral that I had to move, but I was using an insulated screwdriver and pliers on the wires, so didn't think much of it.

So, say I went downstairs right now, loosened up a neutral on a live circuit that had a small clock radio or something on it, and wiggled the neutral around in the busbar slot. Contact with the busbar would be intermittent within the slot. I'm thinking that a small amount of sparking between the neutral and the busbar would be expected.

I hope you agree. I don't want to think about this any more.

"Back in the day" we used to have fuses in the neutrals as well as the hot side. You could always tell when someone had a neutral fuse blow by seeing the refigerator and television set on the curbside for the trash pick-up.