Why Not More Diesel Cars in the U.S?

They tend to be noisy; I don't know how well this has been addressed.

Very well. They have a different signature to petrol engines but, as with petrol engines, the noise can be tuned. Overall noise levels are much down on the historic levels.

HGVs (trucks and buses) had to meet a limit at driveby of 80 dBA at 7.5 m (and 1.2 m mic height)...test is a WOT from 50 km/h (36 mph) over a 20 m box + vehicle length. At stationary idle, many of them don't generate even 70 dbA.

About 20 years ago, when I drove my Dad's then 3 yo Volvo diesel, I tried starting it because I couldn't hear the engine at idle.

ER the Diesel Lover

Are you perhaps E.R. III?

Del's right. During and after the gas crunch in the 70s, diesel started gaining popularity. For years now, diesel has been much more expensive than gasoline, hence the lack of interest.

I looked into this several years ago because I couldn't figure out why diesel was more expensive, since it's easier to make. Well, it's due to demand, or lack of it. If we had a 50/50 split of gas and diesel cars on the road, diesel would be way cheaper. If all cars were diesel, diesel would be dirt cheap.

It all has to do with demand, money, and profit...................as usual.

PMSL...You have to be joking. When it was unpopular, diesel was cheaper than petrol here. Then in the 90s, as the refinements (i.e. OEs spent money applying learning from petrol engines to diesel engines) came on the market, more diesel engines cars were bought and the use of diesel went up and that of petrol went down.

When that happened, the tax revenues dropped, what with the tax on diesel being lower and diesel engines getting more mpg....so the govt raised the tax on diesel, now it's 2 - 3p/litre more than petrol, to (more than) regain the tax revenue.

We pay tax (VAT: value added tax) on the fuel duty (tax) that HMR&C levy on the price of fuel....

Diesel fuel was always cheaper then gasoline. They made engines with that in mind. Noisy and didn't get very good mileage. With the increased demands on finer grade fuel oils for heating to reduce emission it has pushed the price of diesel fuel higher then gas. With the low mileage factor most fiqure why go there.

Just starting to see some vehicles with diesel engines that have mileage comparable or better then gas engines.

GA.

Turbocharging and less than 50 ppm sulphur fuel to allow the use of catalysts and "suddenly" diesels are way cleaner than petrols. Petrols produce more PM2.5s and PM10s than diesels....

Whaaaa???!!! In Europe the petrol boys have been playing catch up in terms of fuel economy, it was so much better with a diesel. On about a par at the moment, what with start-stop and all.

Are you serious?

European technology in car diesel engine required quality diesel fuel that the US simply didn't provide. That is also the reason why Mercedes Benz and others stopped diesel car import and production in the US for years.

This has been fixed to a certain degree now, although the fuel is still inferior to the Europe- refined diesel.

I experience it every day.

I drove about 1,5 million miles with diesels and the worst diesel engine broke down at 350.000 km in Europe. (only one) My record was 768.000 km with a 300D (mercedes) and now in North America I am at 270.000 km at the cost of more injectors, and 2 injection pump repairs during this cycle already.

Diesels also outperform gas engines. The world record speed was with a diesel engine already 20 years ago.

When Mercedes was hard to get I once tried an Oldsmobile V8 diesel Cutlass Brougham Deluxe and that "piece of misery engine" only lasted 35.000 miles.

When it comes to power/weight ratio of diesel engines they still need to study here to graduate.

While I appreciate Cats, Cummins, and others giants too. But..?

I know American Power plants that change to e.g. M.A.N. for economic reasons.

I understood it was EPA restrictions - common rail types have trouble meeting some standard.

Noisy - not any longer.

US refineries are setup to provide a higher portion of petrol or so I have read - not a minor thing to change.

Europe ahead? In the eyes of greens they are but Opel and Ford are major players with diesels. Fiat owns Chrysler - Fiat is big in diesels.

Noisiness of old diesel engines or poor MPG mileage are not the only factors for using gasoline as the main fuel for cars in many countries. There are also technical reasons, cause crude oil yields certain proportions of fuels which are more or less fixed during production:

Liquid petroleum gas (LPG)
Gasoline
Naphtha
Diesel fuel
Fuel oils
Lubricating oils
Paraffin wax
Asphalt and tar
Petroleum coke

This means that if demand any for any of these fuels would grow exponentially, prices would also follow the same trend.

In many countries "light" fuels are used in cars while "heavier" are only intended for heavy transport (trucks, freight ships, etc)

These days, a diesel-engined car will get +20% or so on the MPG of a petrol-engined equivalent. Despite the higher price-per-gallon here for it, diesel is gaining favour on economic grounds.

When your car fails, I bet you are going to try to repair it yourself, by all means, but diesel is a whole other story, it requires service by a diesel mechanic.

Come on ! who takes the car to a shop anymore? Only housewives, daughters and conceated, fragile guys with alabastrine hands who can afford it.

You're right, and there's many exceptions to what I said, I'm myself a friend of a good mechanic, and every now and then take my CJ5 to him, he allows me to tweak a few bolts, have a beer at the shop and have a great time talking politics.

No one home repairs, tunes up a late model car these days - too much 'stuff' on the engine.

Would I like to see a return to the 50 year old repair yourself type of car ? No way - no thanks. The new ones are far more reliable, comfortable and convenient.

OK, but you'll miss the fun, read my post#13. I might be too young to be such an olde time guy, but there's many more like me.

Regards

I don't know about no one, but I do. Electronics and controls fits neatly in with my line of work as well. A car is too simple compared to my actual job.

I've got 50 year old cars too (and older), and they can be just as challenging at times.

Oh gee!

Yeah, they don't make them like they use to, ---------thank goodness.

The initial cost is why I haven't bought a diesel, I haven't looked in a while, but it seems a diesel 3/4 ton was around $5,000 more than the gas version, but I'd love to have one.

Sorry to disagree, but old cars could be repaired with a hammer, a wrench and a piece of wire . Nowadays you need a computer with the diagnostics software for that specific car as well as a lot of special tools intended only for a certain car in particular. It´s not that easy anymore!

Having owned and maintained a number of old cars, both petrol and diesel, I find that diesels need much less maintenance the the petrol equivalent. The diesels just keep on going with no more than the odd new glow-plugs from time to time. Also the exhaust systems have a much longer life. I really don't think about engine maintenance any more.

I've had diesels since 1990 or so, I have never had to replace a glowplug on any of them, though I know many do need to replace them.....Just lucky I guess.

Exhaust systems last far longer on diesel engines, probably less aggressive chemicals in the burnt gases.....

The fuel is far less likely to burn in an accident and will not explode (except in the combustion chambers(s) of course.

In my experience, they can easily top half a million miles. A taxi company that I use in Vienna, sell their taxis with around 600,000 KMs every two years, they are still running perfectly normally and even achieve customers ready and waiting to buy them......

Due to the good torque characteristics, you don't need to change gear as often as a petrol engined car....

The consumption only gently rises when towing, it does not double as many petrol engines cars do.....

One word answer to your last question:

Oldsmobile

Blame the EPA. They HATE diesels, and impose regualtions far stricter than for Gasoline wehicles. That makes them very expensive and hard to certify.

I drive an early 80's diesel (1983 Mercedes actually), Its a full size just short of 4,000 lb car, I average 26 mpg city highway can get 31 mpg on the open highway.....its got a little over 200K miles on it now and still runs like a charm. Rock solid reliable....Yeah a Kia can outrun me in a drag race.....but I don't race it....

AND I do ALL my own work on it. Not that it requires very much beyond valve adjustments, fuel filters and oil changes..

Around the mid-70s GM said that by 1985 (I think) diesels would account for about 25% of their production for the North American market. Of course this never came about. I don't think it is any one thing that killed it off in the US, but here are few contributory factors:

· As has been mentioned, fuel is so cheap in the US compared with Europe, in the minds of the public the 'perceived' disadvantages of diesels have always outweighed whatever cost saving there might have been. If there is no cost saving, then it is not worth changing to diesel anyway. But if it costs you only, say, $75 to fill up, you're less likely to be bothered about extending refuelling intervals by a few miles than if it costs you $175 to fill up.

· It is not entirely down to fuel costs. In the US, diesel is more expensive than gasoline, as it is in the UK. But there is not much difference in the proportion of diesel cars in the UK compared to the rest of Europe, where diesel has always been cheaper than petrol. The price difference is mostly down to duties. In the US the duty is about 18% on petrol and 24% on diesel. In the UK it is about 60% on both petrol and diesel, but at the pump diesel costs usually only 4% more than petrol. In Germany, for example, duty is about 60% on petrol and 45% on diesel.

· Early US built diesels were quite dreadful, and did nothing to attract the buying public. I recall an Oldsmobile diesel from the late 70s that was quite appalling. Underpowered, noisy, dirty, problematic and not very economical. At this point in time European diesels were already matching their petrol-engined equivalents for performance whilst already returning more than 20% better fuel economy.

· Refinement of diesels has improved dramatically in Europe in the last 30 years, and especially in the last 10-15 years. It is also no longer just Peugeot and VW/Audi vying for the best diesel engines (Mercedes diesels are classics, but were not always the most refined), there are also excellent diesels from BMW, Fiat, Honda, etc. When my family visits from Canada, they usually can't believe I'm driving a diesel (my old Honda diesel purred like a sewing machine). Even recent US diesels (I've driven a few Chryslers) leave a lot to be desired and have a bit of catching up to do.

Today in Washington State in the US, the price of diesel is 16% higher than standard pump gas (87 octane). The average mileage for diesel engines for my truck's weight is nearly identical, about 17-21 mpg--or worse if towing/hauling.

There is no incentive whatsoever to change over for most people when faced with that type of cost. What is my benefit? Why would I change over to a more expensive fuel to say "just because"? I don't see the logic.

That is why I sold my Bonneville GXP a few years back when prices were over $5.00 a gallon for premium (92 octane) in Virginia. I loved that car, but I just couldn't see spending that kind of coin for gas when I didn't have to. I do the same things with "less" vehicle.

Thats similar to what we have here as well. There is very little incentive to spend more for a diesel powered vehicle when the average fuel economy gain is not sufficiently higher than a gas powered vehicle to offset the higher fuel prices plus around here any diesel powered vehicle costs more up front than its identical gas powered version.

Dollars to dollars over the life of the vehicle diesel does not have enough gains to justify it for most people. Who you do see driving diesels here are the contractors and service industry people who need larger sized pickups and small commercial trucks that generally just don't come with optional sufficiently sized gasoline engines from the factory.

However slowly but surely I am seeing more and more of the Toyota Tundras starting to show up in the work area. They apparently have the power, durability, and fuel efficiency to compete with our American made diesel pickups in the 3/4 ton and lower weight classes.

One of my friends is now seriously looking at trying one out for a year being the new Chevy diesel pickups are crap all the way around compared to what they made a decade ago.

I won't quite get into the diesel debate..but standard pump gas (87 octane)!

Here in Aus standard pump gas is 91 octane and premium is 95 octane !

Current price of standard gas - about A$ 1-40 per litre / US $5-00 per gallon.

Australia only uses the Research Octane Number (R) for pump gas rating. America uses an average including the Motor Octane Number (M).

Austalia--R=91

US--R+M/2=87

Seems like the governments just like to play with numbers.

Goo post.

You forgot Citroen/Peugeot that have the HDI diesel engine and its derivatives.....power, economy, refinement and reliability.

I don't like the rest of a French car so I tend to drive VW and Mitsubishi (using VW engines).

Most modern common rail diesels are a joy to drive....no matter as long as its not a French car!!!!

I remember back in the 70's, owners of Oldsmobile diesels were replacing their engines with gasoline engines as soon as gas prices came down. I understand GM used "petrol" engine blocks with high compression heads. The bearings were not up to the rigors of a diesel.

That's common lore. GM actually used a completely different block for the diesel. It was designed from the bottom up as a diesel engine. It fit into the same bay as the gasoline burners so the external similarities were there...but that's it.

Exactly....the Old 350 diesel's biggest problem was poor spec head bolt that case head gasket failures that owners drove on until the damage was unrepairible...

The Roomaster IP's were sort of jurasic, but simple and cheap to rebuild...

My brother used to have an old Ols 88 with one of these 5.7 diesels, he got in the 30's for MPG on the highway and it ran until over 250K miles until he had a some glowplugs fail, made for hard starting and not knowing any better, Ether was used in an attempt to start it, resulting in a blown head gasket....

The later ones actually had all the weaknesses fixed....but it was too late to change the reputation.

I have a machinist friend that knows these well.....and will argue they aren't as bad as their rep was.

Now the V-6 variant.......don't know if its issues were the same, but assume it was.

I actually took the heads off a 350 Chevy diesel and replaced them with heads, intake manifold, and carburetor from an Oldsmobile 350 Rocket. I used the diesel pushrods and the gas valve train. I had to cut the gas intake heat sheild front to back to clear the fuel injection pump mount and enlarge the head bolt holes and lineup pin holes but other than that the block seemed very similar. The exhaust manifolds even fit. The compression was quite high with the flat top diesel pistons and high compression gas heads so it ran best on premium! The power curve was much like diesel as I did not change the camshaft. Pity the poor person who bought it!

I drive a Dodge '98 2500 Cummins diesel to tow with currently.

My take take on why no more diesels in the U.S.? It stinks when you get it on your hands so the ladies don't like it!!!

But that's really fallacy for why it cost more. A barrel of crude yields far more diesel than it will gasoline, its easier and takes less work to refine. On those reasons alone diesel should cost far less, and in fact years ago, it used to. Much of our Diesel that's refined is shipped to Europe where they will pay far more for it. That creates an artificial shortage that drives up prices here.

Yes it does contain more BTU's per volume, but that's not how prices are determined.

The price is determined by what the market will bear.

Supply and demand....exactly, but that supply is artificially low because they take large quantities of #2 (same as diesel) refined here to ship overseas to sell there instead.

Back to the original question. Did you hear of trucks, tractors, ship diesels and emergency generators? Even cars for personal use? When turbo equipped, they are swift, powerful, quiet, efficient. Their sweet spot efficiencywise is markedly better, than gasoline engine's.

Ship diesels and emergency generators (and diesel-electric trains) spend over 90% of their time running at one speed which is their "sweet spot" for fuel efficiency.

Tractors (truck types) get the best mileage at highway speeds, not stop and go traffic. Again, the sweet spot is the best mileage.

The super low torque of the diesel makes them the logical choice for agricultural tractors.

I think, Americans always value TOP class performance. Of course, gasoline is maximum power, smoothest engines since inception. And US manufacturers have had their own role in propogating exclusively gasoline cars.

Diesel has recently caught up to gasoline quality performance using its "common rail" technology which maintains even pressure at the cylinder intake so that a diesel version of variable valve timing (the famous "VVTI") can be used.

Elsewhere in the world, this "common rail" diesel technology has blown peoples collective minds. It's a buzzword they all savor. But US having culturally been weaned on gasoline is not so interested.

Two items that do not seem to have been addressed in this discussion. First, the introduction of low sulpher diesel with the accompanying loss of power and the advent of better gasoline injection systems has almost balanced out the efficiency differences between gas and diesel engines when used in light and mid-sized trucks. Second, the cost of maintenance ( filters, oil changes, DEF injection etc. ) has raised the operating cost of the smaller diesel trucks to where gas engine vehicles pencil out better. I own many heavy equipment and heavy truck diesels and three diesel pickups and a diesel suburban as well as gassers and can attest to the actual performance and operational differences between them all. I will not be suprised if I never purchase another light or medium sized diesel again. Don't get me wrong, I love my diesels but the numbers don't lie. When you factor in the added cost of purchasing a diesel pickup it really quits making sense unless you absolutely need the torque.

In India, diesel is used as a bulk transport fuel and it is much cheaper then petrol because it is subsidised. We also have a lot of diesel cars here-small and luxury.

These cars have a better mileage than petrol cars but are more expensive, usually noisier and maintenance costs are more. So these are economically beneficient only for people who do a lot of driving, a lot of distance. These cars are not cleaner engines though. The emission norms for the diesel engine are much less stringent than for ICEs.We also don't have a CO2 limit in our emission standards like the EU.

Recently there is a debate about wether there should be a separate diesel rate for luxury car owners as opposed to truck drivers and those using diesel for generators. Let us see how it turns out.

I've heard many of the benefits of diesel cars and a few years ago I decided to buy one. When I began searching in MA, I found that they could not be registered in this state. When checking with the RMV, I found that MA pollution laws were written to emulate CA laws which prohibited diesel autos. The situation may have changed since my inquiry, but my decision was made by the law and I must live with it.

I'm not familiar with the US/CARB Light Duty emissions regs, but I do deal with their Heavy Duty regs and whilst there are differences with the European regs...both are more stringent in different places...the legislators are working towards a worldwide standard. They have, after about 6 years, agreed a World Harmonised Test Cycle for HD, now they just have to agree on the next set of limits that follow on from US2010 and EuroVI!!

There are similar moves in the off-road world, so I would be surprised if the LD world wasn't heading the same way.

For the Developing World (if I can use that term), historically these countries have used the same path as us, but have made the changes as a faster rate. For example, Honk Kong have always specified European Directive Noise approvals for vehicles sold there, but have specified "out of date" limits, moving through the limit reduction faster than Europe did...so in 2000, they were specifiying the 1984 limit. I'm out of the noise side these days, but I would think HK are probably using the current European levels by now (or have switched to using Japanse regs!).

Chile are doing a similar thing with exhaust emissions.

I heard that the major reason for not importing European cars to the US was that the US insist on lots of every model and variant being crash tested.

As a Californian, one of the reasons diesel autos are rare is because our EPA looked at the "pollution" produced by a gallon of diesel compared to a gallon of gasoline. This is wrong thinking. If they compared "pollution" produced per mile of a gallon of each, my understanding is that diesel comes out cleaner based on its typically better mileage.

On a side note: How much more does it cost to manufacture a diesel engine compared to gasoline? I've always heard that diesels are less complex, but take more iron. Sure seems that the extra iron wouldn't cost much at the manufacturing level and it would be offset by the savings in complexity. Then why the $7,000 premium for a diesel light truck (and then the manufacturers wonder why nobody wants them)?

Is there a $ premium paid in the EU for a diesel engine?

As you neglected to tell us what the vehicles cost, only the difference, its difficult to judge, but here you would expect $1,500 - $2,500 more on a $25,000 car, for the less complex diesel engine. Diesel is big business here....for many years, Germany has cracked the 50% barrier.

Its also (somehow!) more calming to drive, not slower, just calming. I have no idea why.....

No I don't know why such an engine costs more, except to say that generally they last at least twice as long.....maybe that has an effect!! The companies try and make more money.....but I am guessing.

Well its not about the actual complexity.....because the new diesels are very complex compaired to the old ones. And by old, I refere to the older IDI vs the newer DI types.

But the fact they have to be built verty robust....and that drives up the cost of components, and the cumulative costs add us significantly.

Well, I reckon it's a combination of factors, as mentioned above. I'm not sure if the newer generation diesels are marketed well enough - they are completely different animals to the older generation. Modern common rail direct injection (CRDi) turbocharged engines are very smooth, relatively quiet, and more economical. But you pay a premium for the privelege: more exoensive to purchase, service intervals at 15 000 km or so instead of 20 000 km, services that are more expensive, a requirement for better fuel, etc. They tend to loose value when the mileage gets high, as repairs can be VERY expensive ( around $1000 per injector!). but I see that this is a trend for many of the more complex new cars. However, against this is an amazingly torqey engine, and especially enjoyable if coupled to an auto transmission. They are fast, but because they cannot rev so high, are perceived as not so sporty. Ah, but the way they drive!! The better fuel consumption when travelling fast, towing, etc. Is a definite advantage for some people. On light commercial vehicles (truck, ute, bakkie, delivery van, whatever your lingo states) the fuel consumption differs by 20% or so. For cars, here most now come with a maintenance plan built into the selling price, which eliminates a lot of the servicing and maintenance cost issues. But it means resale value drops significantly once kilos climb. My dad's old Isuzu KB250D withits simple, rather agricultural engine gave a fairly trouble- free 500 000 km service before he sold it. I don't expect the newer models will give the same. As far as servicing goes, all manufacturers here effetcively tie you into services at accredited dealer if you want to keep your warranty, and I cannot recall the last time I serviced a car, petrol or diesel. And then in the states your EPA(?) in CA does not seem to like diesel, for the soot and associated carcinogens. Interesting that Europe (seemingly) does not mind poisoning its people! I see you have similar fluctuations with diesel prices, which also negated some of its advantages.

A lot of what you say is certainly not true here in Europe, if I may quote you a few times:-

Well, I reckon it's a combination of factors, as mentioned above. I'm not sure if the newer generation diesels are marketed well enough - they are completely different animals to the older generation.

Could be true.

Modern common rail direct injection (CRDi) turbocharged engines are very smooth, relatively quiet, and more economical. But you pay a premium for the privilege: more expensive to purchase.

True, less difference here though.

Service intervals at 15 000 km or so instead of 20 000 km,

Not true on many models, they have a computer that requires an oil change after it has calculated the usage carefully, I used to have service intervals above 35,000 kms in spite of a lot of heavy trailer towing. The oil needed is more expensive, but bought on ebay, I save 50% of the costs.....

services that are more expensive,

Why, its far simpler, only the oil itself is more expensive, but as many US citizens still change their oil every 3,000 miles, 20,000 kms, 35,000 even better has a good ring to it!! Maybe some service places are not playing fair....

a requirement for better fuel, etc.

They run on almost any diesel, even filtered chip fat if need be......

They tend to loose value when the mileage gets high, as repairs can be VERY expensive ( around $1000 per injector!).

....and high mileage petrol engined cars achieve a better price where you live???? Laughable.

Here in Europe, a high mileage diesel car will always command a far better price than the equivalent petrol engined car as the life expectancy is usual 4 to 6 times that of the petrol engined version. Provided the oil changes were made when required and the oil and filter quality were correct. But this is also true of petrol engines as well....

Injectors wearing out is mainly due to saving money on the fuel filter.......In 6 or 7 diesels, with between 120,000 to 400,000 kms before selling (all still running with no problems), I never once had to replace an injector or glow plug........good oil, good filters and good maintenance.....

A taxi company I know in Vienna, sells the Diesel taxis with around 600,000 kms in two years of usage, still running perfectly. they have a select clientele that buy them up instantly......

So I disagree with many of your comments from intensive and personal experience of 20 years of diesel cars...the only way they are more expensive here is in the yearly tax for the diesel cars, €200 more than the equivalent petrol engined version.....easily saved on the better mileage.....

Here in the USA its actually illegal for a manufacturer to void a warranty if you go to an independent mechanic or other than the dealer they want you to (basically their own dealerships).

I agree they are apparently engineering in obsolescence. Gone are the days you can almost expect to get 500K miles (750K kms) out of a good quality car (with some expected parts replacements). ( like the Older Mercedes) that a mechanically competent person could actually maintain and do most repairs on.

I'm not exactly the average backyard mechanic.....I've actually been offered and turned down a chance to be one of the Mechanics on an Italian road Rally team a number of years ago. Nor have I had formal training or certification as a Mechanic, I'm a degreed Electronic Engineer working in the Telecom industry.

I know at some point I'll have to retire my old diesels....because I actually drive them daily they will wear or rust out. I dread when that time comes.....I enjoy NOT having to pay the dealer to do anything but alignments. And enjoy NOT having the car payments or any of the other costs that go with new cars.