Murphy Has a Beard! Lead-Free Solder Problems

You know what's really ridiculous?

I can run down to Walmart and buy solid lead fishing weights all day long. Yep, I can freely use them in the reservoirs around here that are used for drinking water............no problem. Nor should it be.

My suggestion would be to put the lead back in solder.

This is another episode of government gone crazy.

I don't agree...Lead is highly toxic...The body has no tolerance for lead, it's toxic at any level...Better to go with brass for your fishing...Lead will be outlawed everywhere in due course...

http://www.leadfreefishingtackle.com/2010/09/brass-fishing-weights-for-fishing-jigs-and-bass-sinkers/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_poisoning

Okay, I'm willing to admit that I didn't know everything about it. I'm now a little shocked that fishing weights weren't the first thing targeted.

However, I still contend that the tiny amount of lead in solder should be allowed.....................at least for the time being. Electronics are so pervasive in everything, that I think that the loss of life that could occur from having them fry, outweighs the risk of the minuscule amount of lead it would take to prevent this whiskering.

You are free to disagree.But do your homework and substantiate your reasons.Do not be a victim of agenda journalism.Remember, these guys are journalists, not scientists or chemists,and they will print what sells, the more frightful and alarming, the better.

I agree that the human body has no tolerance for lead, but that is another matter entirely.Leaded gasoline had a different mode and chemistry than lead solder.I am all for unleaded gasoline, but some have used a shotgun approach to ban all lead usage, which is a throwing out the baby with the bathwater(IMHO).

Typical lead/tin ratios for circuit boards are only 3% lead, which is effective in abating whiskers.

Now, consider the amount of lead due to circuit boards in landfills, compared to lead acid batteries in cars,and other uses, and you will realize the insignificance of lead solder.

The standards were enacted because of fear of lead leaching from PCB's in landfills into the water table.Landfill sites are chosen because of their geology, normally on a clay bed substrate, and they are lined.So even if lead somehow escaped the liner, it would molecularly bind to the clay.

I consider and respect different opinions, but much more so when they can quantify and substantiate their objections with facts, not a knee jerk reaction to press releases.

No offense intended, just my opinion,same as yours, freely stated.

I anticipate and welcome your acceptance of my challenge to provide facts for your position.

Tin whiskers have brought down satellites, been identified as the cause of failure of components at nuclear powerplants, and been the source of the recall of heart pacemakers.

Zinc whiskers, gold whiskers, silver whiskers... all are known to propogate under certain circumstances.

Pretty good article here.

Very informative.Perhaps this is the answer,but it is still in the research phase.

A determination of the cause would be more economical, and would have other far reaching benefits in chemistry and metallurgy.True, a lot of pure metals grow whiskers, as they reach "puberty", under certain circumstances, but are not as pervasive as tin.

A little know fact is that Napoleon lost a great battle because of tin turning to powder at low temperature, and the buttons fell of of his soldiers uniforms, causing them to freeze to death in the harsh Russian winter.

Pure tin solder could logically do the same.

Good find Doorman. It looks like a solution may have been found.

All the politicians need to figure out, is to let the scientists and engineers find a solution first..................then impose a ban if they feel the need. Not impose a ban which causes electronics to short out, first, and wait for a solution to come along later. Idiots.

Doorman brought interesting notes. After thinking over the one in the closing sentence, it simply does not compute with me. It is electroless nickel plating of finished board to cap and encapsulate the whiskers. If my thinking is off, let somebody with more experience correct it.

1,. In any humid environment a fraction of a micron nickel corrodes. New life for whiskers.

2,. The article glibly talks about masking off to protect components. Connectors, headers, coax connectors? Expecting the hot liquid not to penetrate encapsulation? Good luck.

3,. When connectors, headers are installed afterwards and after rework we are back at square one.

4,. If finger connectors get nickel, they are known to be unreliable.

So, to me the idea and patent is interesting, but not fully baked. My vote is still on the low% Pb, and doing away with the whole rigamarole.

I wasn't referring to lead in circuit boards, just in fishing tackle...

"Do not be a victim of agenda journalism."

Are you referring to your post here?

Both replies have strayed from the original topic it seems.Yes, I am referring to my original post as the subject of my discussion.My statements are backed by scientific evidence, not main stream media hype.I will gladly paste links if you promise to read them in their entirety with an open mind.Then make an informed decision, or not.

Okay. I started the fishing weight thing.................guilty as charged.

Although I do know guys that have been using them their entire lives, none have keeled over from lead poisoning.

Back to the whiskers..............................sorry.

My great uncle used to bite the split sinkers together on the line, didn't have pliers, so he was exposed to lead all of his life.The doctors said it would kill him, along with smoking a pack a day, and sure enough it did.He did at the premature age of 98.

Think how long he could have lived if he took care of himself!

Good for grand-pa!

I hope you got his indestructibility genes...

Most people don't have them though, and die from cancer and other nasty things when exposed repeatedly to harmful substances.

Some people have survived a bullet in the head. Can we use this fact to consider Russian roulette safe?

What counts is the effect on the large group of the population.

As for the lead in solder, I also believe that it was a mistake to remove it. Same for many of the plating material used in electronics. They could have make sure that the ones who own plating shops don't empty their bath in the sewers. That would have been more productive for the environment.

Remember: The original topic is "LEAD FREE SOLDER", not lead per se.

There is nothing in this universe which is 100% good for everything and there are always a safe limits of exposure of everything even radio-activity; food; medicine etc etc

You ere in a generation which has not listened of how many X-Ray Machine operators and Techs died of Leukemia and how the latest safety Rules are formed.

But inspite of all those measures people working get exposure to some extent.

But they have to be there to work even in reactors.

Now you have to go though scanning if you are travelling and on occassions.

Exactly.Lead in pure form is insoluble in water, and usually latches onto sediments, such as clay, in solids, so it does not penetrate very deep.There have been exceptions made for very critical applications, such as medical devices, etc.

Many unexplained failures, intermittent random shutdowns,and possible critical system crashes could have been caused by "MURPHY'S BEARD" ( a name I coined for this effect).

The rules were made due to pubic opinion, not scientific facts, and the press is to blame for allowing their ignorance to become agenda journalism at it's worst.

The rules (RoHS) started in Europe, and eventually became a world wide standard.

As Abe Lincoln said:It ain't what they don't know that makes a person ignorant, it is what they know that just ain't so.." or words to that effect.

I like the name Murphy's Beard.

I could see it becoming a common term. If I ever hear it elsewhere, I'll be able to say that I witnessed it's birth on CR4, and know the guy that started it.

My Dad used to have a pill bottle full of mercury that he let us take out and play with, bare handed, back in the 60's. We're all still here to talk about it. Not saying that mercury is safe..........................but so often, the hoopla is very exaggerated.

We used to crack open fluorescent tubes, and save the mercury and powder.Had quarts of it in our tree house.Nothin wrong with me--with me--with m....except perhaps being "mad as a hatter".

Oh, yea, I tend to glow when passing under high voltage wires....?

Don't tell anyone. I have a secret stash of both lead, and leaded solder. Still works fine.

Kram and HiTech - we must have grown up in the same neighborhood

Biting split sinkers.......still do.

Dad letting us play with Mercury bare handed back in the 60's........did that too.

Breaking open fluorescent tubes...........oh ya.

Do kids today even know what a tree houses is?

I only ever heard of one case where someone in the trades succumbed to lead poisoning.

Back in the day, lead was added to the plastic wire insulation. An electrician had quit smoking, and started chewing on pieces of insulation as a replacement for cigarettes. After years of doing it, the lead finally got him.

We used to carry a small ball of mercury around in our pockets with a penny.In a few days of rubbing it with our fingers, it would coat the penny,making it look like a dime.That way we felt rich.Poor kids have a rich imagination.

Here's my 3rd grade photo..does it look like it bothered me?

This is starting to sound like the makings of a new thread.

Why, when I was a kid.........................................

Lots of dangerous/fun things for sure.

Wouldn't it just be easier to use a solder that has a higher silver-to-tin ratio, thus eliminating all the hoopla? I know it's expensive, but what alternative do we have now days, eh?

I do all of my copper pipe (for a solar thermal collector app) soldering here with "high temp" silver/tin solder and have no problems so far......though I recognize that it may not a suitable solder for electronics applications, or am I wrong on that account? Just curious...

(1) Lead-free assembly is not better for the environment, it is worse. The additional tin mining required to produce high-purity tin alloys, plus the mining of other precious metals required to alloy with tin in substitution for lead is a poor trade for the use of existing lead, much of which comes from recycled products. This information comes from a study conducted by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The study undercuts the primary basis for ROHS.

(2) Lead-free assembly is less reliable than lead-based assembly. The E.U. environmental commission admits this point. That's why they grant exceptions for military and high-reliability applications that still use SnPb solder.

From:

Roll back the lead-free initiative: 12 ROHS myths - 2007-09 ...

The shrinking of circuit line spacing has only worsened the problem. I got out of aerospace when we were still using 5 mil lines and spaces.

Get the lead back in solder!

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but once again.................................

Gee, why can't we compete?

We purchase toys from China with lead components and paint, and we can't even use it in our solder.

What an embarrassing joke!!!

I think that only Europe has the ROHS requirement, so there is nothing wrong with using lead based solder for US or other countries that have not adopted ROHS.

I seem to remember some recent chatter about rescinding the lead free requirement for solder in Europe, but I have no idea if that has any traction anymore or not. I guess the economic crisis is overshadowing everything else.

While it is true that the standard began in Europe, it has now become a standard in just about every electronic device made, with exceptions for mission critical components, as you mentioned.A turn off signal at Millstone Nuclear plant in Connecticut was attributed to whiskers.Sometimes the whiskers vaporize, and disappear, other times they can create an ionized trail that can carry very high currents causing major damage.

You are fortunate you do not have to deal with this problem.

The reason it is standard for most commercial products has to do with economics.

ROHS is, if memory serves, principally a European requirement. If you sell commercial electronic goods to Europe you must comply with ROHS.

If you serve the world as a market, then only a percentage of your market requires ROHS. You have two choices. One is to make two versions of the same product and sell to each product to its respective market. The other choice is to make one product that fulfills all requirements for all markets. The latter is the usual approach that commercial electronics manufactures take because it is less expensive than manufacturing specialty products that are specific to a particular market.

The nuclear mishap cited was probably due to an oversight in the regulations/requirements that allowed the use of commercial off-the-shelf products for key portions of the facility's control system that should have fallen under the no ROHS clause. Or, someone willfully violated the requirement to save cost.

Here is another link about tin whiskers:

http://www.eetimes.com/design/military-aerospace-design/4230652/Understanding-and-mitigating-tin-whiskers?cid=NL_MilAero&Ecosystem=military-aerospace-design

You wrote, "Nice to know when you are cruising at 30,000 feet in autopilot."

Aviation, military, and medical devices that are at least life critical are exempt from the ROHS (lead free) mandate. So fly at peace.

However, ROHS is a known pain in the butt for Europe and I am just glad we produce components for the military and are exempt from the whole mess. That is my solution to the problem and it works 100%.

Large industrial equipments are also exempt from ROHOS but try to find board manufacturers and components suppliers for the lead process. They are rare and expensive when you find them. Most new components only come in ROHOS form unless you order 1 million...

Presently, almost everything is corrupted by ROHOS.

Yes and no. The ROHS requirement dominates the marketplace. You would need to run a second production line, maintain a second inventory of perfectly identical parts otherwise. The EU ruling stemmed from arrogance, fully expecting the technical serfs to produce some solution, afterwards. Well, the tin whiskers are mocking all. A few % lead mitigates the problem. (the 60:40 standard solder was made for lower temp. melting). The EU Masters of the Universe in Brussels cannot be seen to back down on anything.

A year or so ago they ordered french farmers outside Bordeaux to dig up and throw out their grape stock, because they cannot grow one under such name. The farmers promised warm welcome with pitchforks, and refused. The issue dissolved for now.

Got a new EU ruling, that one cannot claim, that water (as in drinking it) helps you with hydration.

Cannot claim water is healthy

Folks, one cannot make such arrant nonsense up. Consider the source. All three come from there.

If they say that water is not good for us, how can we possibly believe them when they say lead solder is bad for us?

Anybody that claims that water is healthy can get 2 years in prison?

Brilliant!!!!

It would be fun to strand them all on a desert island in the middle of the Pacific and have them repeat the mantra- Water does not stave off dehydration...................I wonder how long that would last?

Yeah.....................we need one global economy, and one global government to keep this stuff straight for us.

I always thought the lead in lead / tin solder problem was the oxidation of the lead into 'vapour' which was breathed in. The route through the lungs being more efficient than ingestion through the stomach.

Tony

This is true, but charcoal filters and proper ventilation systems work wonders.

Actually, the problem (health hazard) of lead/tin solder is the long-term leaching of the lead from water pipe joints, especially if the water pH is less than 7.6 (I believe). That's why municipal water departments test for lead on water services throughout their respective water systems. That testing is mandated by the Federal EPA and the individual state Health Dept. Water Supply Bureaus. The results are provided in a yearly report for each municipal water system pursuant to law statutes and regulations.

ADVICE: If you have the old lead/tin soldered copper joints, low pH, and the water hasn't run in a few hours you'll get leaching, so the best thing (recommended) for you to do to avoid lead poisoning is for you to run your faucet for at least 2 minutes.

Actually, the problem worldwide is fancier, than that. In the first half of the century, the standard for water main was cast iron. In its natural state it is quite brittle. To improve machineability, 0,5-1,5% lead was added. The pipe sections were sealed with oakum, and covered with poured lead solder to protect from the soil. I saw plenty of soft lead pipes connecting the cutoff valves to the appliances. Rubber/plastic hoses are later inventions.

So buried under our feet there is plenty of legacy piping, where only the sediment separates us from a source of lead. IF not leached out by now, mostly(?!?).

And we worry about a few grams or less of lead in an Ipad. Right!

All true leveles, BUT the biggest lead poisoning concern (at least here in the USA) is the older lead & tin solder used in household water lines where copper pipe was joined....this of course is the issue in older homes like I said before where the water pH is acidic and leaches out. It's a significant health issue just like the old fashion lead paints.

Yes, the issue regarding lead poisoning in electronics is a non-issue IFAIC....the only significant environmental and health issue is when they (usually 3rd World Countries) recycle old electronic deices containing a lot of lead solder, as it tend to migrate into the soil and groundwater....basically due to greed, and very sloppy recycling and nearly non-existent/unenforcible environmental statutes and standards.

The company that made that Swiss Watch, I believe the name was SWATCH, KNEW about the tin-whisker problem. The warranty on their watch was something like 2 or 3 years. They also knew that it takes about 3 or 4 years for whiskers to grow. When asked about the liability of tin whiskers and the failure rate, they shrugged their shoulders and said that failures would be handled UNDER WARRANTY !

Having been in the military aerospace industry, we were VERY worried about that liability. When your systems are supposed to live for 40 or 50 years....

LynDoor Industries is working on this problem, in consortium with Schick, Remington, and Norelco. Pretty soon we will see a tin whisker shaver, along with a suite of maintenance procedures that require circuit board grooming every year or so, with documentation to be filed in triplicate.

Hobbyists and cheapskates can do this themselves with fingernail clippers, albeit more slowly.

Talk to Madge; she'll soften up your PCB by dipping it first in Palmolive dishwashing detergent, which will also help to remove accumulated grease.

I think I see a brand new industry here!! ...including aftershave... deoderant... "OUR PRINTED CIRCUIT BOARDS ARE THE SWEETEST"

Bill

Some competition here.

I believe that my Tin Whisker Wax is the better way to remove those unsightly outcrops. In grown whiskers will still be a problem though....

Some folk like their whiskers and that natural look.

Nah, that'll just make tin whisker mustaches, à Salvador Dali. (Or maybe we'll start hearing about Bert Cundle PCBs.)

Thanks for raising this topic.

I was involved in the transition of a factory to "lead free" a few years back. The understanding that we developed was that tin whiskers came about because the solders are not "eutechtic" and thus there are crystals of pure tin formed in the cooling process. These crystals are subjected to extreme pressures due to thermal expansion of ajoining material and are essentially extruded through the intercrystal space forming whiskers.

I've seen them growing within DAYS of the soldering process being completed and we were able to enhance them (once they started) with electric potential between ajacent terminals on chips. The 0.5mm lead spacings are easily breached by the whiskers. Also, loose whiskers dislodged from one location can lodge elsewhere causing issues on the boards.

You guys in aerospace need to be careful about the claims you are making. Is EVERY component that you use terminated with 60/40 compatible connections? The intermetalic joints from leaded solder onto a lead free termination creates localised brittle fracture zones.

Lead in water systems is also an issue (I know this bits off topic but needs to be re-inforced from previous comments) for you people in North America. I am now in the water industry and studies are showing there are MILLIONS (that's our millions with 6 zeros) of water connections with lead "pig tails" in your cities, and decisions 40 years ago to NOT line your cast (and some other metal) pipes means that lead leaching is a serious issue. Also, the use of lead solders in plumbing joints has been shown to provide lead concentrations around 5x WHO recommendations after 12 hours of not flowing. Brasses in some plumbing fittings also have used lead to improve machineability properties, so the water captures in those fittings is also high in lead when turned on. But enough of this, back to topic.

I like the term "Murphy's whiskers" and will start using it here to see if it gets adopted.

Also, Lead free is not just for Europe. Asia and other areas have also adopted the standard, but (tongue in cheek) if you're not exporting that's not an issue to you.