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Grand Father Clock

01/07/2012 10:58 AM

My new project... ( Still in the planning stage.) A Linclon 100 Amp. Altenator Turning 1,000 R.P.M. by a 55Gal. Drum (Filled with water), Decent 10'. " to be lifted by a Chain Hoist." The 10' Decent to take 8 Hrs. ~ turning the Altenator 1,000 R.P.M. for 8 Hrs. To Charge: 10 D-9 Cat Batteries... when House is converted to 12 Volts. Where can I get several 36" Dia. Sprokets, for motor cycle chain?

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#1

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 11:40 AM

I'll grant the drum won't be that heavy, but suspect to get the rigidity you need across 36 inches you might need to go thicker; maybe to something like a chain arrangement from an overhead door?

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#2

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 12:06 PM

I see far too many problems as is with the design.

Can you elaborate considerably further on this contraption?

I can only guess that the "Lincoln 100 amp alternator" is a stock Ford type from a Lincoln town car or similar?

If so it will need about 3600 - 4800 RPM to produce its full 100 amp output at the typical 14+ volts output that it ran at in the vehicle. 1000 RPM wont even be close, 20 amps at 13+ volts maybe. Further more most Ford alternators are about 70% efficient in most cases so to get 14 volts at 100 amps out it would need roughly some 2100+ watts (about 3+ Hp) mechanical input.

Take that out over a 8 hour period and add in the additional mechanical losses from a large range gear up system and you would likely be needing 5 Hp or more continuous input power for the system for the full 8 hours run time. That would require roughly 30 kilowatt hours of energy which is about 1000 times more power than your 55 gallon drum falling ten feet will produce over any time period.

Thats my take on what I see at this point going by basic knowledge I have at hand of given items so far listed.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 12:28 PM

Yes, but there are things about this that appeal to me

That would require roughly 30 kilowatt hours of energy which is about 1000 times more power than your 55 gallon drum falling ten feet will produce over any time period

So are you exaggerating here?

Meaning given a drum of water falling 10 feet and the losses you specify, and an escapement as in the following post; how long can he get the output he needs?

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 1:12 PM

Drum In a Rope Basket to a 1 Rope connection, Rapped Around a 36" Dia. Pipe, with a 2" Dia. Shaft through the Run, Center. & Another Cable rapped around several times to a Manual Chain Fall. Center Shaft Having a 36" Dia.Sproket... For a Motor Cycle Chain, to a 1" Dia. Sproket Connexted to a 36" Dia. Sproket. (Each Shaft Seperate.) X 10 Shafts (?) = R.P.M. Increse.

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#10
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Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 3:45 PM

Given that a 55 gallon drum of water weighs roughly 520 pounds and it fall ten feet that would give 5200 Ft/Lbs of energy whereas one hp/hr is 33,000 x 60 = 1,980,000 Ft/Lbs of energy and he needs 8 of those so thats roughly 15,840,000 Ft/Lbs of energy over an 8 hour period and his contraption contains about 5200 Ft/Lbs of energy.

5200/15,840,000 = 1/3046 or about 1.2 seconds at full theoretical output.

Sorry I was off by a factor of three. I should have said he would need about 3000 times more energy not 1000 times more.

Now if he used a 55 gallon drum full of lead at 11.35 times more dense than water he could get about 13.4 seconds at full output in theory.

I am also assuming that what he refers to as a D-9 cat battery is the 8D size commercial batteries that caterpillar D9 dozer's use which have roughly 150 Ah capacity over an 8 hour discharge time.

So in theory again he would have about 12 x 1500 = 18 KWH of energy stored in them. Factoring in a 60% recharge efficiency that would mean that a complete recharge of them would take about 30 KWH's of electrical energy.

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#14
In reply to #10

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 5:03 PM

I thought this was for a trickle charger...2 amps = ~1/12hp = 165,000 ft/lbs per hr = 10 55gal drums of water hoisted about every 20 min.. or he could go 30', with 10 drums once an hour...or 300' with 1 drum.....or,,,,wait a minute, wouldn't it just be easier to make some ethanol and run a little generator???

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-moonshine/

The $2 crockpot still....

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#44
In reply to #14

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/10/2012 8:01 AM

if you drink the ethanol, you wont need the batteries

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#21
In reply to #10

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/08/2012 10:03 AM

Agreed, I did a quick calc and got > 1000 tonne. I wonder if he's thought about how to get it back to the top again for the next run. A winch with a diesel engine?

BTW energy is ft.lb and hp.hr, not Ft/Lbs and hp/hr as you clearly understand from your calcs, but not everybody does.

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#23
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Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/08/2012 12:16 PM

Did I mention I was an English flunky for pretty much my entire 17 years in public school?

Sorry I type faster than I can think and the 15 minute editing limit does not allow me to come back and fix stuff like I would like. That and I mostly just knocked those replies out with a basic calculator over a few minutes as I typed. I figured something would be off!

Thanks for the corrections anyway!

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#3

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 12:10 PM

How do you intend to govern the system? Pendulum & escapement (as your title suggests)?

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#6

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 1:37 PM

You're not likely to find any 36" sprockets...I would go with a transmission setup....You will probably have to hoist the water barrel every 20 to 30 min...A lot of people don't realize that turning the alternator under load is not the same as spinning it in your hand...under load it's extremely hard to turn....

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#7

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 2:49 PM

My best wishes are with you. But I suggest you to take more time for you plan as good plan creates solid execution of your project tasks.

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#9
In reply to #7

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 2:51 PM

Am I to understand you want him to paint it?

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 4:27 PM

I need to do some research and see if there's something on the "net" about CR4 offering free advertisement, this is the third time in three days where someone has done a sales pitch, it's kinds like referring Chevy Cavalier problems to CR4

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#12
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Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 4:46 PM

Have you ever Googled "Chevy Cavalier" problems?

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 5:03 PM

I have and CR4 comes up

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#8

Re: Grand Father Clock:

01/07/2012 2:51 PM

My best wishes are with you. But I suggest you to take more time for you plan as good plan creates solid execution of your project tasks.

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#15

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/07/2012 5:17 PM

Wow! The decimal point isn't even in the same room as the rest of the calculations.

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#16

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/07/2012 9:18 PM

I've got to admit, I'd love to see pictures of this contraption in action.

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#17
In reply to #16

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/07/2012 10:46 PM

its never going anywhere until that diesel locomotive in the sky comes in to land at kennedy airport and the aliens on board get through customs with those tin foil hats

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#18

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 2:26 AM

A 36" dia motorbike chain sprocket is not off the shelf.

You could make or get one made for you.

A sprocket of that dia does not have to be totally toothed. A disc with teeth welded on at say a ten tooth length separation would still engage a chain to achieve this leverage.

I know better than to ask why. Good luck!

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#19

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 3:28 AM

A guided tour of the Big Ben clockworks might be instructive....

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#20

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 7:28 AM

Just to get back to basics for a minute,

Mass of 55 US gallons of water, m = 208.2kg

Height 10 feet, h = 3.048m

Acceleration due to gravity, g = 9.81m/s2

Potential Energy, PE = m*g*h = 6225J (= 0.00173kWh)

Release time 8hr = 28800sec

The power is (by definition) the energy per second (1W = 1J/sec), so over the 8 hours, the absolute maximum output (i.e. with no losses) would be a steady 0.216W = 216mW - about enough to light an LED string on a Christmas tree.

Sorry, but I think (as others) that you need to re-do the basic sums before wasting a lot of time (and possibly money) on constructing this machine.

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#35
In reply to #20

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 12:08 PM

Thanks a lot... But way over my Perceptions...

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#36
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Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 6:05 PM

Hi Bert,

OK, first find the potential energy, in Joules, of your raised drum.

Potential energy = mass x acceleration x height (using SI)

So nJoules=n(Kg) x Gravity (M/s2) x n (Metres)

· Weight - A US Gallon weight 8.35Lbs, say 208 Kg.

· Gravity - 9.8 M/s2 (because it just is)

· Height 10ft I'll call 3 Metres (because I'm lazy)

So that's 208 x 9.8 x 3 Which is ... roughly 6,200 Joules.

Watts are Joules per second. 1 watt=1Joule used for one second. So you have 6,200 watt/seconds stored in your drum (& before anyone shouts at me I know Newton won't let us grab it all at once but it's a good starting point).

At which point I get /really/ lazy & pop over to Mr. Chuck Wright, http://chuck-wright.com/calculators/watts.html who reminds me that 6,100 Jules is about 1.694 Watt/hours, or about 0.212 Watts constant over 8 hours. Chuck, bless him, has a good place to play with design variables.

So if you have no loss in the rest of your system you can expect to get a constant 0.212 Watts off your 55 Gallon drum.

Let's look at this the other way. You want 100 amps; 12 volts, for 8 hours. That's, 1,200 Watt hours or..... 34,560,000Joules. Which is a lot of Joules. I'll leave you to have fun with the math on that one J since the numbers run into many, many tons.

Your problem isn't really the sprockets, it's that the 55gal drum won't turn it to the required power. Or not for the length of time you want it to, anyway. Lifting a 55Gallon drum 10 feet simply doesn't have that much energy in it.

Nice idea though.

Evan

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 6:46 PM

All I Cought, was the Watts: (1 Watt = 1 Joule) My Light Bulb @ 100 Watts "means" More $ than my 60 Watt Bulb... { ? many Amps Vs. Watts?} Still... Gravity Has a sorce for movement to make into generating Power... It is easyer than Trapping Lightening, & Storing it.

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#39
In reply to #37

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 7:32 PM

Careful, Bert; 1 Watt is not equal to 1 Joule. It's a common mistake. I fact (by definition) 1 Watt = 1 Joule per second. Makes a lot of difference.

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#40
In reply to #37

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 7:34 PM

Yes 1 joule is one watt for one second of time. 1 killowatt hour is equal to 3,600,000 Joules.

Your barrel of water has roughly 6200 Joules which is about the same usable energy a common rechargable AA battery holds.

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#38
In reply to #36

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 7:27 PM

Evan, mate - did you read #20? If so, you may've noticed that you have just replicated it (only not quite as accurately), apart from your last paragraph or so.

Why did you bother?

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#42
In reply to #38

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/10/2012 2:05 AM

Well, I bothered because Bert seems like a nice chap who's genuinely asking stuff (how often have we seen a Mr. Anonymous turn up, ask a question, and disappear or abuse when people take the trouble to reply?) and he didn't seem to get the #20 explanation. So I thought I'd expand it a little, use rough numbers, and also provide a helpful link so Bert could play with the variables himself.

So, yes, there was a lot of repitition - I thought I could explain it a little differently, better. Not /hugely/ successful, I grant you but this is something of a counter-intuitive area for many people. You see a big weight, lifted high, and you think, "there must be a lot of energy in that".

Evan

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#43
In reply to #42

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/10/2012 3:17 AM

Ok - fair enough.

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#45
In reply to #20

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/10/2012 12:50 PM

Well... as all of you must have noticed; Mechanical Engineering isn't my strong suit! The sad fact is I don't have any Strong Suit... Hi School Diploma ( For Constant Attendance.) But, I realy want to thank all of the responders to my Post... Displaying a Higher Education, and Knowledge beyond my comprehension. ( o'Yea, Thank you Spell Check; too...)

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#46
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Re: Grand Father Clock

01/10/2012 1:26 PM

OK, Bert - just keep reading round and thinking your thoughts - do anything you can to help bring on your education. Don't be afraid to come back and try your ideas here (but keep your laughing head on, and don't get too pee'd off if you get some negative criticism) - you've obviously got a pretty fertile mind.

Good luck.

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#47
In reply to #45

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/10/2012 2:03 PM

Look at it this way. If nothing else, you learned how to make the print big enough to read.

At least your questions are interesting.

And you're not pretending to know more than you actually do, a trait we see all to often here. (I'm guilty of that myself sometimes)

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#48
In reply to #45

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/10/2012 7:33 PM

and a GA to you sir for good manners and active "mind" , keep on here with us

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#22

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 11:38 AM

No need to drive the drum directly with a large sprocket.Speed reduction can be done by other means using same gear ratio.Drum could have a reasonable gear size, powered by a gear set or tranny. If you plan on dumping the drum at bottom of stroke, and having it returned to filling position by a counter weight, and refilled by a constant water source, then cycle time is less important, but it will require more cycles than you anticipate offhand to provide indicated power.Physics is physics.No free lunches allowed by mother nature.

On second thought, why not mount drum vertically and let it pull chain/belt,sash cord,etc.around pulleys , sized to achieve desired ratio? Still an exercise and learning experience in my opinion.

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#27
In reply to #22

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 8:05 PM

I thought of that too. If I don't want lift it with a chain fall... The nearest thing to Perpetual Motion. A goal of many Scientist.

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#28
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Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 8:18 PM

Bert, have you not read any of the posts explaining (with calculations) why it's not going to give anywhere near the output you are hoping for? Are you not sufficiently numerate to follow the arguments, or do you deny the basic laws of physics? Or are you ignoring them all, intending to proceed on the "I'm right - you're all wrong" principle?

By the way, "Perpetual Motion" is not the goal of any scientist worthy of the name.

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#31
In reply to #28

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 12:14 AM

I saw a 5 Ton Chain Fall once, So the dropping object can reach 5 Tons as far as I'm concerned... Its Weight is increased from the Size of the object, when the cable (Rope), is raped around a larger pipe... " The more radius" The more torque. The more R.P.M. increse available. Sealed Ball Bearings don't use much Torque. But; @ 36" Dia. Pipe... X TT (3.14) = 103.04" cir. \\ 120" (10') / 103.04 = 1.1465 Rev's...

1 Rev./10 Hrs. X 3 (36" to 1")= #1 Shaft= 3R's/10 Hrs X 3 = 9R's / 10 Hrs #2 Shaft X 3 = 27R's / 10 Hrs. #3 Shaft. X 3 = 81R's / 10 Hrs #4 Shaft X 3 = 243 R's / 10 Hrs.

#5 Shaft X 3 = 729 R's / 10 Hrs. #6 Shaft X 3 = 2,187 R's / 10 Hrs. #6 Shaft X 3 = 6,561 R's / 10 Hrs. #7 Shaft X 3 = 19,683 R's / 10 Hrs. #8 Shaft X3 = 59,049 R's / 10 Hrs. #9 Shaft X3 = 177,147 R's / 10 Hrs. # 10 Shaft x 3 = 531,441R's...............

531,441/ 10 Hrs. = 53,144 R's / Hr. / 60 Min. = "885 R's / Min."

Add a few more Shafts, should get sorta close... [ 15 ]

Car engine @ 1,000 R.P.M. Turns Alt. 3 times faster.

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#32
In reply to #31

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 1:17 AM

Bert, your gearing ratio divides your torque.

This means whatever tons at whatever radius, is divided by whatever your "shafts" multiply out to.

So 1.1465 revs/min x X lbs.feet - divided by '1000 revs/min' is the lbs.feet torque output, less losses.

Each shaft/gear/chain has losses. Each loss multiplies in the next shaft ratio.

This is why gearing is usually in the 3 - 3.5:1 zone and it's pointless, given the losses in such a rope blocs, to go over 6:1

But; assuming this is the 12 V D-9 75 Ah battery; that alternator probably only needs 800 rpm to charge at a 10% rate. (7.5 x 12 = 90W). It may however lack cooling so fall in efficiency at such a low speed. (budget 270 W in)

The thing is, the losses at 1000:1 gear ratio will probably mean you can stop the output shaft with your finger - no matter how many tons you have 'inputting' - because everything has to grow in losses to cope with the increased prime mass.

It's a nice bit of lateral thinking, but; clocks only use power to overcome frictional losses - and make some noise - they can't drive anything.

There are technologies that can store energy in gravity and recoup large %'s but small scale 'mechanical stuff' just looses too much.

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#34
In reply to #31

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 12:03 PM

oops... 36" Dia.Sproket X TT (3.14) = 113.04" cir. ~ 2" Dia. Sproket X TT (3.14) = 6.28..

113.04 / 6.28 = "18:1 Ratio." So... 1st Shaft = 1.146 R's / 10 Hrs. X 18:1 = 20.6R's, X 18:1 = 371 R's X 18:1 = 6,683 R's X 18:1 = 120,302 R's / 10 Hrs.= 12,030 R's / Hr. / 60 Min. = 200 R's X "10:1" = 2,000 R.P.M. Alt. { (4) 18:1's + (1) 10:1 Should do it...} < Sleep sure helps @ 70 Years Old!>

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 9:57 PM

I saw a small version used to pound glass into glazing powder for pottery operation.The water from a stream filled a drum,, which lifted a heavy hammer, and when it reached bottom, a lever opened a fast dumping valve(similar to a toilet valve).The hammer slammed down, the barrel went up, and refilled with water to start the process all over again.Not perpetual motion, and not a high power output, but steady mechanical power for a mundane job.It ran 24/7, was very reliable and simple.I don't know how much water supply you have, but a low-flow turbine would be more efficient in some cases for producing steady power, if the flowing water volume and sufficient drop are available.

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#30
In reply to #22

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 11:07 PM

"If you plan on dumping the drum at bottom of stroke, and having it returned to filling position by a counter weight, and refilled by a constant water source"

Oh! I think I have it!

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#24

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 2:05 PM

My favorite formula for horse power is 550 pounds one foot in one second. So in your machine which has a 400 lb. drum of water falling ten feet, you get one horsepower if it falls one foot per second, approximately. That's ten seconds of power, (at no where near the amps you are looking for, by the way) and now you have to get the drum back up. Where is the horsepower to do that coming from? You haven't mentioned how you are going to raise the drum. That takes power!

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 2:48 PM

THAT is a combo that fits in my head - thanks!

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#26
In reply to #24

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/08/2012 3:36 PM

OP states "to be lifted by a chain hoist" - I read that as "handraulically".

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#33

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 7:12 AM

My math suggests that for a 1000 RPM output that runs for 8 hours it would turn 1000 x 60 x 8 = 480,000 revolutions.

The circumference of a 36 inch drum is 36∏ or roughly 9 feet 5 inches. So for that to go ten feet it would turn 1.07 revolutions. This means you need a 1:448,598 gearing increase in theory.

That also means that for every single foot pound of torque the alternator takes you will need at least 448,598 pounds of dead weight assuming a 100% efficient gear up system. For reference a typical rail car fully loaded weighs about 220,000 pounds.

Realistically I have doubts that a 1:448,598 gear up will even make 10% efficiency so my guess would be that to drive your contraption you would need about 20+ fully loaded rail cars (about 4400 tons) dropping 10 feet over an 8 hour period just to break even on the mechanical losses before you got a single watt of usable electrical power out of the system.

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#41

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/09/2012 8:32 PM

This probably the most viable human powered electric generator, and your lucky to get 50 watts...

In reference to your setup...

Remember, the weight, still has to be lifted...Block and tackle setup may reduce force needed to lift weight, but in the end the same amount of work is done....Efficiency is always reduced in transmission of force, so the simpler the better...Your goal is electricity, the fewer steps from one form of energy to another is always more efficient...

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#49

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/10/2012 8:26 PM
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#50
In reply to #49

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/10/2012 8:50 PM

No... Just Trying to Get some Sanity out of life...

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#51
In reply to #50

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/10/2012 10:29 PM

I hear you. Like you, I have far too much sanity in my life.

Best to flush the excess out.

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#55
In reply to #51

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/12/2012 4:43 PM

I have a wife (http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/74635 ) who now wants a cat, where do I fit in on this sanity scale?

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/12/2012 6:02 PM

I had a wife, that I bought a cat for, the cat hated the wife and the wife hated the cat. So, after the cat fight, I kept the Cat! Turned out to be a good choice

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#57
In reply to #55

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/12/2012 9:59 PM

I'm with the follow-on post - whats wrong with cats?

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/12/2012 11:42 PM

Well; I had a cat once... I named him Tuffy; Because he wouldn't let any of the other kittens nurse when he was nursing... To my surprise, Tuffy had a litter of her one!

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#52
In reply to #50

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/11/2012 11:38 AM

Dude, you need a cat
Del

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#53
In reply to #52

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/12/2012 6:12 AM
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#54
In reply to #53

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/12/2012 3:55 PM

OUCH!!

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#59
In reply to #53

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/14/2012 9:54 PM

Ming Heow...

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#60
In reply to #59

Re: Grand Father Clock

01/15/2012 12:05 AM

Caption this- I no see little man with pigtail- Please no more ask!

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