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Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/13/2012 4:00 PM

A friend of mine who lives near Cleveland, Ohio, noticed that as the 'day gets longer', i.e., as the duration of sunlight increases by about 1 minute per day at this time of year, the increase is always due to a later-setting sun. The time of sunrise hardly changes at all. My friend wondered why the day doesn't just get 30 seconds longer equally at both sunrise and sunset.

The primary cause is the angle of the Ecliptic (the imaginary path of the Sun in the sky) to the horizon. The angle of the ecliptic to the horizon is a consequence of the Earth's tilt, the time of year and the observer's location. During most of the year there is an asymmetry between the dawn and dusk distances of the Sun to the horizon when looked at on a day-to-day basis. At this time of year that asymmetry is pretty large. (Roughly 6 months from now, the asymmetry shifts the other way.)

So at this time of year at dusk, as the sun moves along the ecliptic its distance to the horizon increases quite a bit from day to day, since at dusk the ecliptic is at a steep angle to the horizon. Conversely, at dawn the ecliptic is at a shallow angle to the horizon, so as the Sun moves along the ecliptic from day to day its daily motion is roughly parallel to the horizon. The following four diagrams show the Sun's position at dawn and at dusk on January 1 and January 21. So you can see at dusk the distance from the sun to the horizon increases a lot on a day-to-day basis. And conversely, at dawn the distance of the sun to the horizon hardly changes at all over this same 20-day period. The person's position on the Earth affects this a lot, of course -- e.g., no sunrise at all above the Arctic circle and no sunset beyond the Antarctic circle at this time of the year.

Diagram 1) The Sun near sunrise (8:00 AM) on Jan 01, as seen from Cleveland, Ohio. (Assuming a clear sky.) The black band across the bottom of the diagram represents the horizon.

2) The Sun near sunrise (8:00 AM) on Jan 21. Compare with Diagram 1) and note how the distance between the sun and the horizon has hardly changed in 20 days.

You can really see how the angle of the green line to the horizon changes between dawn in these two diagrams as compared with the angle at dusk in Diagrams 3) and 4).

Comparing this diagram with diagram 4), the sun itself will move about 3/8ths of a degree, or slightly less than its diameter, along the green line between dawn and dusk.

The lines you see here rotate nearly 135 degrees between dawn and dusk, which changes the angle between the horizon and the green line that the sun is on (the ecliptic) between dawn and dusk. The 135 degree rotation is due to there being only about 9 hours of daylight between dawn and dusk; 9/24ths of 360 = 135 degrees. This is what causes the asymmetry in the lengthening of the day. (In a 12-hour day, the rotation is 180 degrees and the angle is the same for dawn and dusk.)

3) The Sun near sunset (5:02 PM) on Jan 01.

4) The Sun near sunset (5:02 PM) on Jan 21. Compare this diagram with 3) and notice the large increase in the distance of the sun to the horizon in 20 days.

For reference, note that Capricornus is above the sun here, but below the sun at dawn in Diagram 2).

These diagrams are screen shots from an Astronomy program, Starry Night Pro, that I have on my computer. It allows me to select any location on Earth or elsewhere in the solar system, at any date and time over a range of thousands of years.

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#1

Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's going on?

01/13/2012 4:12 PM

Thanks!

I've pondered this seeming inconsistency before. I'd usually quit thinking about it though, cause it gave me a headache.

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#2

Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's going on?

01/13/2012 4:12 PM

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....,,huh,,,,oh,,,,,a,,,,Well, it's all because of these giant cows

Say hello to the happy farm...

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#14
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's going on?

01/14/2012 9:31 AM

Eagle, that is just bizarre. Where ever did you find it?

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#3

Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/13/2012 5:46 PM

See also, "analemma" (that figure-8 device shown on some globes, which shows how earth's elliptical orbit and axial tilt cause the sun's elevation to vary, and the time of noon to lead/lag the average.)

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#4

Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/13/2012 7:41 PM

I always thought that the explanation of that asymmetry was on temp related optical light "bending" difference, because East side is heating at dawn and West is cooling at dusk, but the fact that the asymmetry as you said reverses twice over a year (does it?) proves me wrong. S.M.

P.S. My sympathies on your unfortunate family incident.

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#5

Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/13/2012 8:17 PM

In the last month or so, someone posted a link to quite a good a video on the 'intricacies' of Earth's orbit - which explains this and other 'goings on'.

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#7
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/13/2012 11:54 PM
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#11
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/14/2012 4:13 AM

Well done

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#16
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/14/2012 4:20 PM

I stared at my screen transfixed - that is magnificent!

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#6

Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/13/2012 11:09 PM

Many years ago, I solved this puzzle by moving closer to the equator. It doesn't matter what time of year it is. The sun rises about 6:30 every morning and sets about 6:30 every evening. Actually, it varies a little bit over the year, but not enough to impact my daily activities...

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#8

Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/14/2012 12:28 AM

Kepler's second law "equal areas in equal time" is to blame.

As the earth moves closer to the sun on its elliptical orbit the distance traveled and degrees of rotation must increase to compensate.

The difference is however small but the accumulative effect can be noticed.

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#10
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/14/2012 1:04 AM
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#15
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/14/2012 12:58 PM

The ellipticity of the Earth's obit affects the speed of the Sun's apparent motion along the ecliptic, and therefore causes minor differences in the times between solar noon throughout the year, but these differences are small compared to the effect I described. The Earth's orbital eccentricity is less than 0.02, so the orbit is nearly circular, unlike your diagram. The effect I describe would exist even if the orbit was perfectly circular.

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#17
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/15/2012 12:03 AM

Hi Usbport

The effect you describe actually include both(and more). The difference due to Kepler although small can be noticed in the accumulative value (up to 8 min lead / lag if i remember correctly)

The changing of the elliptical orbit due to gravitational pull of the other planets also need to be considered.

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#18
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/15/2012 12:50 AM

Then how do you account for the earlier sunset in the opposite hemisphere?

Changing seasons and day light length have nothing to do with an elliptical orbit.

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#19
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/15/2012 7:13 AM

Hi Wal

Sunrise and Sunset are noted on a clock set to an average position of the sun at noon.

The average noon is used in stead of true solar noon to avoid having to set our watches every day .

If the earth was in a circular orbit the length of a day would stay constant and the number of seconds from sunrise (ideal shaped) to noon and from noon to sunset will be almost equal. (the earth does advance about half a degree in 12 hours)

To evaluate the effect one should plot a curve of minutes noon to sunset minus minutes sunrise to noon for each day or week of the year,

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#9

Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/14/2012 12:33 AM

I found this on the internet and it seems to present some logic to the differences between sunrise and sundown. It seems solar noon may be different throughout parts of the world. I checked the Toronto sunrises and sunset times and note that your friends observations are somewhat correct. The expansion of daylight is earlier and later at different rates but the total difference seems to expand itself as we advance in time. Excellent post with good presentation. Thanks.

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#12

Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/14/2012 6:51 AM

Yes, I noticed this too, and boringly like to point it out to people, but the answer is usually, 'no, you're wrong.'

On a related point, around the end of march, when it is just starting to get a little bit warmer, and the dst has given us apparently more light during the day, and overcoats can be left off maybe one day a week, and people have just got a slight sense that the winter is almost over, I like to start saying 'only 10 weeks and the nights start drawing in again'

Try it. It's hilarious.

Thanks for the clear explanation though.

Cnc jim

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#13
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/14/2012 7:07 AM

13 weeks, though.

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#20
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Re: Sunrise, Sunset - What's Going On?

01/15/2012 3:21 PM

Yes, it is, but i minimize it for comic effect

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34point5 (2); cnc jim (2); cwarner7_11 (1); edignan (2); Hendrik (4); kevinm (1); lyn (1); SimpleMind (1); SolarEagle (2); Tornado (2); Usbport (1); Wal (1)

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