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Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/14/2012 7:38 PM

We have harnessed water, wind, solar, thermal and nuclear power. What has been done to harness the energy from lightning strikes, tidal change? Except for a few, not much has been done to harness a source of unimaginable power.

Addendum: If we don't find new renewable energy sources, the tree huggers will have to resort to burning the trees for energy. We need energy and those who have the environment as their cause will eventually have to drop their ideals in favor of survival.

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#1

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/14/2012 8:10 PM

Well I think with wind, solar and nuclear barely tapped, that we should concentrate our efforts there....any one of those three can supply more energy than we will need for the foreseeable future...However I do think that R&D on other sources should continue on a limited basis...Batteries and other energy storage methods are an area that needs to be developed well beyond what is available today...Solar thermal systems I feel have not been investigated in the depth that they deserve, and I feel there is much room for improvement in the performance of these systems compared with what we are seeing today...

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#2

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/14/2012 8:40 PM

We are taking the wrong approach.

All we do is focus on new ways to sustain our current rate of consumption, when what we need to be doing, is focusing on ways to live comfortably on about 30% of what we currently consume.

Very doable. It will also carry us several hundred years into the future with current energy sources and technology.

We aren't going to get there by banning incandescent light bulbs and building these.

We are a very stupid, arrogant, and self destructive species.

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#3
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/14/2012 8:55 PM

30%????????, 30%????????

"We are a very stupid, arrogant, and self destructive species."

You may have a defensible position here, but new energy sources are the savious of the universe.

You can't stop progress.

"They've" (DARPA) just learned how to turn a snail into a battery.

When you are old and drooling, the life support system you are on may very likely be powered by some chemical reaction of an orange and a snail that have been genetically modified for this purpose.

By then, my brain will have been frozen for later reconstitution.

Klaatu barada nikto

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#12
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 6:16 AM

I'm all for new energy sources.

I was just pointing out the monumental amount of resources that we waste day in and day out. Not just energy, but across the board.

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#7
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/14/2012 9:59 PM

We are a very stupid, arrogant, and self destructive species.

Nah, your thinking of government.

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#13
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 6:18 AM

Good point!

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#18
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 1:16 PM

Dunning-Kruger effect?

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#32
In reply to #2

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 11:20 PM

Sorry Kramarat, I was nearly agreeing with you.

But doing things like banning incandescent light bulbs is exactly what we need to start doing. Any small improvement multiplied by 312 million (US population) starts to have a significant impact.

I think it comes down to how can a society change its ways - I'm already hyper conscious about saving power (so I already turn lamps/heating off when I can), but many in the community (through stupidity, laziness or malice) aren't.l

This same problem (how a community forces people to behave) is common, I'm sensible enough to not park where I'll block others/over speed in traffic/shoot a gun near schools/put sewage in the water supply etc. but unfortunately some others aren't.

So laws are created to make people be good, it's a side effect that good people can be inconvenience by their "one size fits all" scope.

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#38
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 6:10 AM

When I was a kid, they had incubators in the classroom for hatching baby chicks that used a 100 watt incandescent light bulb as a heat source. They worked great.

Apparently they have stopped making them. The other day I picked up my daughter from preschool. I asked her teacher why it was so hot in there. She explained that the classroom next to them is hatching chicks and they had to keep the thermostat at 80°F.

Most people, including myself, have switched to CFLs wherever they can possibly be used. This is just one example of the unintended consequences that can come from government mandated directives.

Unlike you, I believe that people will quickly embrace affordable technologies that will save them money.........................without government intervention.

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#40
In reply to #38

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 8:39 AM

Kramarat: please stop in the school and tell the principle that this teacher needs to be fired. if she is that Stupid to keep the whole room up to 80 deg. Our teachers need to go back to school. maybe the kids can teach them. just look at our Gov. its a total Mess. and Mass of Stupid people.from the TOP to the Bottom

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#43
In reply to #40

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 9:54 AM

Hey this is an engineering site..........but asked Wisconsin Governor Walker for tips on that issue, he can help.

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#41
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 8:46 AM

If you were in the business of identifying and implementing energy saving technologies, you would know that this is precisely what does NOT happen. People do not make decisions about infrastructure for their home, business or government that saves them money over the long term. In large majorities, they opt for the lowest upfront cost. Only sustained education, building code revision, and in some cases (like incandescent light bulbs) regulation, do changes get made. Think leaded gas, backflow preventers, insulation minimums, CAFE standards, Energy Star ratings, UL testing, etc etc. Private enterprise and personal responsibility are insufficient methods for dealing with many social issues.

Finally, you might suggest to your daughters teacher that hatching chicken eggs in a classroom could be done with a 6 dollar soldering gun in a piece of 3/4 copper pipe for safety. I'm guessing you could whip one up in a heartbeat. Then turn the heat down.

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#44
In reply to #41

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 9:57 AM

no, thats not it.......said sarcastically......

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#45
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 10:02 AM

you could try to actually say something, to provide some thought provocation.

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#46
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 10:11 AM

Actually, I did

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#47
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 10:16 AM

you have no comments on this forum.

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#127
In reply to #47

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/29/2012 11:02 AM

Another way. reduce total population by 30%!!

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#52
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 3:58 PM

It was the other classroom, not my daughter's, and they had already gone home for the day...................so they were heating several classrooms, (half the building) to keep the chicks warm. Crazy!!

All I can say on the light bulbs, is that the same government that's banning incandescents, keeps every city in the US lit up like it's daytime, all night long.

Not just the government either..................we keep empty parking lots lit up all night too. Banning incandescents is going to change our energy future.

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#53
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 4:12 PM

I must admit K, that you're right that these same governments (or at least the same kind of government bureaucrats) are leaving the lights on, and that is an equally important issue. My point is that energy use reduction can be so easy it doesn't even necessarily involve lifestyle change. Technology and behavior modification could easily get us enormous savings with very little lifestyle impact. The evolution of transit will take many years, but there is no reason on God's green earth to spend 100 watts to get 900 lumens that last for 1000 hours. It requires a basic belief that it is important to reduce resource consumption. Sometimes I wonder whether that is what the major obstacle is, not technology.

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#54
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 5:10 PM

I know what the obstacle is.

I've been working in a house this past week. The owners have been good citizens and switched out to CFLs throughout the house. Excellent right?

It's about a 5000 sq ft house for a family of four. Ten ft ceilings downstairs, nine ft ceilings upstairs, and the living room ceiling is over twenty ft high.

They heat it all winter and cool it all summer.........................Somehow I don't think their CFLs are amounting to a lot of savings. And yet the CFLs allow them to feel as if they are contributing to a better planet. It's sick.

Oh yeah. A couple of massive SUVs too.

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#55
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 6:22 PM

I just opened my electric bill......................$67, minus fees and taxes, about $60. It's usually a little lower. That's for 3 of us for a month.

I'm not judging the people like I described in my last post, but I know that they routinely get electric bills of $500 or more, depending on the season.

This is one house in a neighborhood of similar houses, one neighborhood of hundreds like it in this area, this area is like 10s of thousands across the US.

Dropping consumption to 30% of where we are? I think it could be done. It won't though. And mandates aren't the answer.

As a society, we equate huge houses and conspicuous consumption as a status symbol. Just a small part of the problem.

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#56
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 6:56 PM

"Oh yeah. A couple of massive SUVs too"

Coming up to the election in 2000, I was bombing along on the interstate when I was passed by a humongous SUV with a "Vote Nader" bumper sticker.

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#58
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 7:08 PM

Nice!!!

The master bath in this place I'm working is so big, it has 2 banks of CFLs over the his/hers mirrors and sinks and more in the ceiling.

12 CFLs in the main area and another in the water closet.

His and hers walk in closets in the changing area. Double 48" fluorescents in each.

It's a freaking bathroom!!!!

Painting it sucks. Those whirlpool bathtubs are slippery. It probably holds 100 gallons of water or more.

I can't complain though......................the pay is pretty decent.

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#57
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 7:07 PM

Hello Karmarat:

I've been in the HVAC industry in one form or another for almost 40 years. Your example of the CFCs reminded me of a project that I was on. Circa 1990 I was working on a 17 story telephone company building. Their interior heating had been decommissioned for several years, they're well meaning energy conservation effort of replacing the fluorescent ballast with new high energy efficient electronic ballasts resulted in an unprotected problem.

The winner building temperature was unacceptably cool. There's a big difference between what something looks like on paper and real-world.

I was recently in a hospital unfortunately not in a professional capacity but as a client I noticed that my sweats and chills when not only a result of my physical condition but also the HVAC control system. A complete lack of thought by the engineer that designed the system had resulted in the zone sensor been placed above a computer terminal. Unfortunately it has been my experience these type of situations are more the rule than the exception. Certainly beyond just comfort considerable energy was wasted by the nursing staff manually adjusting the thermostat and the zones swinging from heating to cooling. Moral of this story in little more caring and thought in design could result in significantly energy and material savings, and good intentions do not always work out.

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#59
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 8:00 PM

I intentionally bought a home with 8' ceilings throughout. High ceilings are stupid.

If people like my current clients had any idea of the temperature differential between the floor and the ceilings they'd be amazed..............................actually, they probably wouldn't care. Just run the heat until the floor level is 72° F....................................but they recycle their plastic bottles...............glass and paper too. It goes in a tiny little bin that goes to the curb every week. City workers are paid good money to collect it and separate it.

What a load of fools gold.

You're right about hospitals and other big buildings too...................also CAFE standards for cars....................it's all about averaging to meet standards. It's also a bunch of bull sh*t.

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#68
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/17/2012 1:17 PM

"High ceilings are stupid..." Depends on where you live, Kramarat. Here in the tropics, LOW ceilings are stupid. One does not need air conditioning in the tropics if the ceilings are high and natural ventilation is provided for. Build your typical cracker-jack box here in the same neighborhood, and it is uninhabitable without air conditioning...

Oh, yes- a few trees around help also...

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#69
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/17/2012 1:28 PM

Yeah that's true. They are stupid anywhere that requires heating in the winter. Although, if people have money to burn, who am I to say that their ceilings are stupid?

I don't get angry with them until they start acting holier than thou because they use CFLs and fill a little recycling bin every week. It doesn't take much for people to get uppity.

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#71
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/17/2012 1:46 PM

The "uppity" ones here in Panama are building tall glass boxes (perfect solar collectors!) to replace the trees. And then they don't want to understand why energy consumption is growing so much more rapidly than the population...

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#72
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/17/2012 2:40 PM

That's exactly what I've been talking about. I bet they like to stay nice and cool in those big glass boxes too................as they enjoy the panoramic views, solve the world's problems, and create new laws and rules for the rest of us to obey.

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#74
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/17/2012 4:23 PM

If the overhangs are large enough, and the windows are triple paned, and have the right tinting in the right places they should be OK. Of course you would want to plant heavy vegetation all around, as well. Electric controlled tinting is also possible, but I don't know if it is readily available yet. I guess I am talking about short glass boxes though, not tall ones. I am partial to ranch houses with lots of glass.

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#75
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/17/2012 4:52 PM

I think politicians should live and work underground.

That way, if they continue to make horrible decisions, all we have to do is plug the air holes for a couple of days to get rid of them and send in a fresh batch. Eventually we would have a bunch that "gets" it.

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#77
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/17/2012 6:41 PM

I am actually partial to open spaces- floor and roof (high enough to provide some natural cooling). Certain indigenous groups here in Panama take this concept to an extreme- no walls (internal or external) at all...My "modern" concerns over modesty dictate that certain activities require some privacy; one might also want to screen in the kitchen and dining areas to exclude unwanted guests. But a ratio of open space to closed space somewhere on the order of about 10 to one sounds about right to me. Which would be hard to deal with any significant distance north of the Tropic of Cancer (or south of the Tropic of Capricorn, for our friends down under)...

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#114
In reply to #59

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/23/2012 10:28 AM

when I was in college, the apartment where I stay had heating coils in the ceiling.

I had always liked laying on the carpet, watching TV, there was at least a 10-15 degree difference, from the floor to standing. I got a ceiling fan , and that helped.

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#42
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 9:28 AM

Thank you!

I have been arguing this point for years with friends and collegues. Our problem isn't the source of energy...it's the rate of consumption.

For the OP, I asked once before about capturing energy from a lightning strike and the answer I received was that we don't have a way holding that much energy for long enough to use it. I'm not an EE but apparantly capacitors can only hold energy for a short period of time and it would take millions or billions of batteries to hold that energy.

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#62
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 10:57 PM

Or a superconducting coil. An experiment was done where a nine volt battery energized a coil and eight hours later AFTER the battery was disconnected current was still measured in the coil.

It isn't a matter of technology it is a matter of will. Simply deciding to do it.

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#63
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 11:08 PM

We did that with Solyndra.

Didn't work out so well. They had really nice bathrooms at corporate though.

Just feeling snarky.....................I get your point.

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 11:13 PM

Thanks I think you might be the only one.

Sorry just feeling snarky myself.

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#65
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 11:48 PM

The entire civilized modern world has been built on cheap and readily available fossil fuel.

To undo it requires more than what is realistic.

We'll do it when it's gone. That's my final verdict.

What the hell? We'll be dead...........................not our problem.

History will judge the past 200 years as "The Wasted Years". Five or six hundred years from now, our offspring will look back in utter disbelief at our behavior.

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#66
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/17/2012 11:03 AM

Kramarat, here is why most people don't have the slightest idea what Solyndria was. They love to bash the loan. Just ask, and I will list 10 each of similar projects that were both awful failures and great successes, many of them dating back to the 60's. This is in no way an endorsement of bad loans, fraud, influence peddling, cronism, or any other thing that may have happenned. So far, I have seen no charges.

The point is, that Solyndria was based on a radical, potentially game changing technology, that could have been a great winner. It was based on a CVD applied PV coating applied to the inside of an inexpensive, modular, 360 degree exposed surface glass cylindrical tube (hence the name) that provided a much broader array output curve versus time of day than a flat panel.It acted like a tracking surface, much like the evacuated solar thermal tubes that we install every single day. Think reduced peak production and extended off peak production, and I think you'll find that attribute was primary in the decision to try to bring this product to parity with existing crystalline cell technology, which contrary to a lot of public opinion, still provides the best lifetime cost versus production ratio. This advantage would ease the variability of production curves and potentially increase the usefulness of these array's on the electricity grid by dealing with one of PV's biggest weaknesses, which is sun exposure variability during the period of potential production, or weather. The primary way that large scale PV production has and will deal with this issue is through geographic distribution of array sites, which decreases the likelyhood of production swings due to variable sun exposure.

I always wanted to use them in a project. They were never as cost effective as other options. They went under before they could reduce costs enough, or they never would reach that point, I don't know. But the science of the concept was sound.

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/17/2012 12:47 PM

I realize that the science works. But I also think that something that works great, that can be shown to be profitable, would have no problem attracting private venture capitol.

The government has no business gambling with taxpayer money. Grants for research and developement............yes. But not building private companies. I think all that free money made them very sloppy. They were spending like drunken sailors.

http://townhall.com/columnists/davidmorris/2011/10/04/solyndras_price_tag/page/full/

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#78
In reply to #66

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/18/2012 4:47 AM

Solyndria. You actaully said what people are upset about. It's getting loans on nothing more than potential, with no other forms of colateral, thats what people are upset about. Or was there?

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/18/2012 11:27 AM

I can't think of one successful US company that used Solyndra's business model, and started off spending almost a billion dollars before anything was built and sold.

Bill Gates? Nope

Steve Jobs? Nope

None of them. Start small and use the money from sales to expand gradually. Why did Solyndra build their plant on some of the most expensive real estate in the country?

I mean really!!!! Silicon Valley??????

They got drunk on free money that other people had to go out and earn.

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#80
In reply to #79

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/18/2012 1:14 PM

I will never be able to forget watching them destroy thousands of vacuum tubes that could have been well used by someone else. I can't understand the rationale for allowing that waste!

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/18/2012 1:39 PM

Me either.

Kind of like the "cash for clunker" program.

By law the engines were required to be rendered inoperable. People that are in financial difficulty, due to the economy, could have used the transportation that some of these cars could have provided.

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#83
In reply to #81

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/18/2012 2:47 PM

I had a friend that worked at a dealership while the program was going on. Some beautiful cars came in. Your point is well taken not only could people without transportation have been helped but also the ones that were driving rolling wrecks that did not have the financial means to purchase a new car.

As a rule of thumb emission requirements become more stringent yearly. So possibly allowing someone to swap and older vehicles for a newer one of the cash for clunkers could have benefited the environment.

Destroying the engines of these vehicles was utter stupidity. The only result was that someone had no choice due to financial circumstances but to keep an older vehicle running will wind up spending more money.

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#84
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/18/2012 3:08 PM

We've managed to allow a system to be set up, in which congress is bypassed and mandates, (laws), are implemented by radical, inexperienced, naive czars, that have been placed in control of every aspect of our lives. The decisions they make are based in emotional attachment to an issue rather than logic.

The cost of having these stupid idiots in positions of power is high.........................and it grows by the day.

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#82
In reply to #78

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/18/2012 2:25 PM

IMO, it was 99% political (I reserve the 1% if it happen to take off, unlikely). Any body that wants to start a business, any business they need more that a good business plan. They need money, and to get money they need something to at least something to hang your hat on.

It this case, it was government grant, cheap loans. And what they used as collateral is a huge donation to the political party?

Then you get the ANALylitical pencil necks that say, "it's a learning experience". Phuq, It was a business, not a research facility. Heck it wasn't even a business, it was a sting operation.

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#4

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/14/2012 9:46 PM

Harnessing tidal power is very site-specific; locales in Canada and the UK are currently (sorry) developing the technology and should be at the forefront.

Something often overlooked in discussions of renewable/alternative energy/what-will-we-do-when-the-fossil-fuel-well-runs-dry is the conservation/efficiency contribution.

Use less now. Instead of looking to produce more, be judicious with what we have now.

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#5
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/14/2012 9:51 PM
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#90
In reply to #4

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/19/2012 4:42 PM

Not necessarily so. We cast turbine blades (6 feet long in Almag 35) back some years ago for an installation to go in the East River in NYC. The following is the latest attempt

http://www.dnainfo.com/20120124/upper-east-side/east-river-underwater-turbines-give-jolt-city-power-grid

The blades were very similar in design to those shown.

The following is even more fantastic when you consider the output of the SeaGen installation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SeaGen

We tried to develop interest back in the early 70's to using the awesome power of The Bay of Fundy when I was at Foster Wheeler. The intent was to utilize the same technology as used for tanker moorings to allow for the swing at tidal changes. Nothing really came of it. You better believe that "Big Oil" has a lot to do with what competing technologies are developed when it comes to energy.

Of course, there will be some that say it is potentially too harmful to the environment. I personally think that it would produce some great fishing spots what with all that chum that could be produced.

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#6

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/14/2012 9:58 PM

What has been done to harness the energy from lightning strikes

See previous threads on CR4 regarding the subject, the answer is it isn't practical and the short duration pulse doesn't offer much. If you are thinking of some hovering power station in the clouds collecting lightning bolts........

Stardust

Except for a few, not much has been done to harness a source of unimaginable power.

Why is it that some people think we engineers and scientists can pull this sort of thing out of our arses? Give us some time.....Have you heard of natural gas, we have heaps of it? Coal-we ain't running out anytime soon. Did I mention gas?

We need energy and those who have the environment as their cause will eventually have to drop their ideals in favor of survival.

True. We cannot even get resource consent to build Hydro dams here in New Zealand, and you don't get any greener than that for large scale power generation.

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#9
In reply to #6

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/14/2012 11:31 PM

Hello Jack:

You've made some very good points. Unfortunately between politics, the general population's lack of understanding of the physics involved, and companies promoting green technologies that are either impractical or anything but green we're getting nowhere.

An example would be hybrid cars, by the time you factor in the extra components manufacturing and disposal IE batteries and so on it is quite likely that any equivalent economy car would utilize the same or less resources. In the automotive field the same things can be said about hydrogen fuel vehicles or electric vehicles. This of course is considering providing hydrogen or electricity for these vehicles to run on.

Of course it is politically correct to promote green technologies and at least here in the U.S.The government has subsidized Impractical technologies and ignored developing proven technologies , In favor of being politically correct .

In the United States there are plentiful coal reserves that could be converted into synthetic fuels. In the 1940s Nazi Germany had a synthetic fuel program why don't we?

It is my understanding that is a simple matter to produce hydrogen in a synthetic fuel plant. This would certainly make hydrogen powered vehicles actually a green technology.

The first thing that needs to be pulled out of arses is political heads and noses.

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#22
In reply to #9

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 2:13 PM

In the United States there are plentiful coal reserves that could be converted into synthetic fuels. In the 1940s Nazi Germany had a synthetic fuel program why don't we?

Synthetic fuel from coal (and other sources I think) was used because they were running low of oil and needed a substitute or risk being knocked out of the war. It was neither inexpensive or practical on a large scale and was only produced in small quantities compared to their usage.

Another example was the use of complicated and incredibly expensive guided missiles as a long range weapon to bomb England. Yes it worked but it was hardly practical or economical as a weapon of war even thou it did make a bang on the target.

Synthetic fuel from coal is still under development in countries such as America, but it still isn't practical for wide scale use yet.

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#23
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Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 3:57 PM

"Another example was the use of complicated and incredibly expensive guided missiles as a long range weapon to bomb England. Yes it worked but it was hardly practical or economical as a weapon of war even thou it did make a bang on the target."

You sell the V2s short. They appeared on the scene when Germany was in retreat and the launch sites were overrun, but if they had them earlier it might have been a different story. All of the weapons, the bomber attacks, then the V1s all scared us when they first started but they proved to have some vulnerability and so familiarity bred contempt for them, we stopped running for the shelters. But there was no answer to the V2, it's ability to frighten and demoralize would have continued.

Incidentally, the rockets came in at supersonic speed, so if you heard the bang you were in good shape, if it had your name on it, you didn't hear it.

P.S. This is not a complaint, it is just a comment. Seeing, "even thou it did make a bang on the target" triggered something in my mind and gave me goosebumps. Perhaps it seemed too casual for events that were the opposite of casual at the time.

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#25
In reply to #23

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 7:33 PM

The V2 was (effectively) the precursor to the modern ICBM, it was way ahead of its time as a weapon but ultimately failed in two important aspects

1) It didn't break the English resolve in WW2 which did not knock england out of the war

2) They were damn expensive to make for what they were

This leads me back to the original point regarding synthetic fuel - yes it can be done but it is not yet economical or practical except in extreme circumstances where cost is unimportant and practical alternatives are scarce.

They appeared on the scene when Germany was in retreat and the launch sites were overrun, but if they had them earlier it might have been a different story

Given what I know of WW2 I don't think it would have. The whole point of the weapon was as a terror weapon FIRST to force England to surrender rather than attempt a necessary invasion (which too ultimately failed to get off the ground due to the battle of Britain in the air and radar on the ground) and in that it failed. Yes you didn't hear it, yes the payload was bigger than the V1, and yes it was too fast to intercept, however they were produced in so few numbers as to be a true terror weapon (in my opinion).

If anything the use of the V2 actually helped shorten the overall war against Germany by removing critical German resources from more productive endeavors such as aircraft manufacture (which ultimately contributed to Germany's defeat both in the Battle of Britan and in the overall war).

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 8:08 PM

.......................and to this day we spend billions on weapons that might work, and release just enough information to hope that it scares the hell out of the enemy.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 10:46 PM

So you just dismiss my statement that it was the only weapon that did cause terror in the people, and maintain that terror while it lasted. I think we would have found a way to live with it. You are, I think, addressing the whole program while I am remembering that it came as nearly final retaliation for their coming defeat. As a child, I wasn't worried, one bomb was as good as another but the adults saw that there was no defense from it as distinct from all of the others, it did give them a very cold feeling. I didn't like them because my little brother and I were sent away from London until they stopped.

The difference between objective and subjective points of view.

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#48
In reply to #22

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/16/2012 11:47 AM

I did a little online research yesterday, and discover there is more research and development regarding synthetic fuel than I had originally thought. As far as cost some companies are claiming that it will actually be less than conventional fuels. By the way a disclaimer here any of those claims must be taken with a grain of salt, I'll believe it when I see it.

On the subject of cost, due to the supply and demand factor that is liberally incorporated into crude oil prices for example costs could be close to a wash. Although pure speculation if synthetic fuel costs three times as much to produce and could supply 5% of the needs it would likely be reflected in crude oil costs.

As far as my original point. I will come out and say that I am anti green, not to say that I am anti clean. The fanatical side of the green movement has resulted in an unbending and unrealistic expectation that technology can solve all the problems. In reality that is a possibility, given time and not being restricted.

As an example a proposed Canadian Oil pipeline to the United States was recently dropped due to environmental concerns. Not that it would have solved anything in the long run but it would have bought time and provided economic stability and security for the United States. The environmental impact would have been minimal, but it was politically incorrect to go against the green movement.

Further examples. About 15 years ago I was reading an article about a potential shortage of U235. The author's suggested solution was to start building breeder reactors to produce plutonium for use as a reactor fuel. Nothing was done and we are now faced with a shortage of fuel for nuclear reactors.

Natural gas is an underutilized source of energy. One of the uses of natural gas and I strongly disagree with is the extracting of hydrogen from it. It is a quite usable fuel in its natural form why waste the energy converting into hydrogen, when it can be produced from coal and oil shale. Obviously this is a case where economics must be balanced against efficient use of resources.

One thing's for sure and undeniable the problem is only going to get worse. Developing nations will begin using their share of energy, which is only fair yet many of these nations have population growth that is completely irresponsible. However promoting birth control is politically incorrect.

Energy is directly related to food production, we can't feed the planet's population with a horse and plow. The other certainly is without a more balanced and realistic approach to the problems is that nature will correct this situation for us, I don't think I need to explain the ramifications of that.

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#16
In reply to #6

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/15/2012 8:44 AM

Did I mention gas?

Which we can literally pull out of our arses!

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#8

Re: Where are the new energy sources?

03/14/2012 10:35 PM

Funny you should ask. About 15 years ago I met someone that had been doing some work in a undeveloped coastal region of South America. Electrical power was a major problem for him, one of the solutions that he was thinking about to his problem was to utilize the wave motion in a cove in close proximity to where he was doing his work.

As I remember the nature of the inlet to this cove resulted in a fairly consistent swell, and shielded the cove from any violent waves. Using the information he provided I did some quick calculations for him. Initially I was thinking that this proposed project of his was a impractical idea that a nice guy that did not understand the engineering aspects had come up with. Actually it appeared that might be workable.

His basic concept build some small floating platforms secure their location via concrete weights and a sliding poll arrangement on four corners thus leaving the platform free to rise and fall with the swells. Then utilize a derrick type mechanism to produce the rotational motion. I believe he had a small mining operation and that is electrical needs were relatively modest.

There was more than enough energy available to make the basic concept practical, two significant problems remained before the paper project would be workable. His shoestring budget required the use of easily available and hopefully used our surplus components. Electrically I was faced with controlling the frequency of an AC generator (due to the random motion) without additional expense. The best solution I could come up with was to generate DC which left him with a problem of finding DC Motors or utilizing inverters.

The second problem was to adjust the derrick cable to compensate for the elevation change caused by the tide. Didn't get that one figured out before I had to leave. Nowadays it would be a relatively simple matter to utilize a logic controller and a position sensor to make the required cable adjustments.

You have peaked at my interest to the point and that I'm going to see if I still have my notes lying around from this paper project. It would be fun to try to determine the actual feasibility of such a device. Of course if it appears feasible on a commercial scale in his ideal location the problem of no local consumers would exist. Another barrier to commercial development on a large scale would be the number and availability of locations with similar conditions.

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#10

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 12:41 AM

Reducing consumption will certainly help and it only requires a bit of legislation. Reduce the line voltage to homes to 110 VAC. This of course is only true for the US and its territories. Mine is currently sitting at 129. It usually goes to 132 or so about 3AM.

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#20
In reply to #10

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 1:25 PM

Lowering the voltage raises the amperage, thus requiring larger wire sizes....If you want to save money this way, you would raise the voltage...

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#11

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 5:29 AM

"What has been done to harness the energy from lightning strikes, tidal change?"

Nothing!

We could surely design a truck mounted, horizontal, windmill to exploit the tornadoes during the season. That could bring in a truckload of energy, but nothing has been done here, either.

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#28
In reply to #11

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 10:53 PM

The energy nett outcome would depend how much time and energy were expended chasing bits of truck and windmill around once the tornado had passed.

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#30
In reply to #28

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 11:00 PM

It was offered tongue-in-cheek to be as silly as harnessing lightning strikes.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 11:03 PM

OH

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#14

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 7:42 AM

Reducing consumption, of everything, incidentally, buys TIME. It's going to take a while to bring on new developments. Spinning out today a bit thinner is certainly going to help.

As would halting global population growth...

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#15
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Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 8:12 AM

Yep. The ferocity with which we consume everything is going to make for a pretty uncomfortable future..............................or at least very different.

As cool as some of the new technologies are, I don't think we will ever find anything that will replace fossil fuel, while still maintaining our current, (and growing), rate of consumption.

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#17
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Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 9:11 AM

The problem is that almost all of the economies are based on growth.

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#19
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Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 1:22 PM

Economic growth and a reduction in energy consumption are not mutually exclusive.

It is not hard to look at the significant growth resulting from a pursuit of ever higher speed (processing power for example) and imagine similar growth resulting from a pursuit of ever higher efficiency.

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#21

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 1:57 PM

I might also add; electricity is the bottom line in the energy conversion chain. The stages of conversion from one form of energy to electricity varies from direct conversion, as in solar voltaic cells to 3 or more stages, as in nuclear to heat to steam to electrical generators. It appears obvious that the more direct the conversion, the less expensive and the more efficient it is to produce electricity. My focus would be on direct conversion, not on better ways to extract fossil fuel from shale or higher capacity batteries. Each stage of conversion eats up money that could be better spent on the basics. I look at it like a doctor would a cancer. He doesn't concern himself as much on the growth as on the cause of the growth and it's prevention. He can remove the growth, but unless the cause is discovered, it will grow back again. In other words "nip it in the bud". I'm sure my approach is more philosophical than scientific.

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#24
In reply to #21

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 7:33 PM

Ronseto, you wrote:

'....The stages of conversion from one form of energy to electricity varies from direct conversion, as in solar voltaic cells to 3 or more stages, as in nuclear....'

followed by

'...It appears obvious that the more direct the conversion, the less expensive and the more efficient it is to produce electricity....'

From your statements, it would follow that solar power would be less expensive and more efficient than nuclear for electricity production.

That would be about as far from obvious as is possible.

While eliminating one or more conversion processes could increase efficiency, it does not follow that the total efficiency of a smaller number of conversions will necessarily be greater than the total efficiency of a larger number of dissimilar conversions.

Apples and Oranges.

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#91
In reply to #21

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/19/2012 5:00 PM

Maybe a couple of tall towers in the Orlando, Fl. area holding some very large lightning rods feeding some very large capacitor banks or into some boilers with resistor banks to heat up the water and produce steam and run Steam Turbine Generators.

Awful lot of strikes down in that area.

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#29

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/15/2012 10:57 PM

You have forgotten the elephant in the room, which is natural gas in its broadest context. That would include biogas from sewage, peat bogs, methane hydrates, waste food, landfills, cellulose etc. Natural gas combined with water, wind, and solar will eliminate the need for dirty coal and dangerous nuclear plants. We have no place to put nuclear waste, safely, for thousands of years. Nuclear plants are too costly when you figure in the cost of construction, fuel, decommissioning, storage of radioactive waste, etc. It is a boondoggle for energy companies, that is uninsured and uninsurable except by the public. The public has to agree to pay whatever the nuclear power plant ends up having to charge.

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#33

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 12:02 AM

It seems to me that all the energy that we are able to produce here on this planet is derived from the sun. This includes hydroelectric, wind and I would imagine in the long run even chemical. So considering that we've developed a means of converting photons directly into electricity, I don't see anything better, unless we can produce it fast enough. And it might even follow what ronseto was talking about with eliminating steps above. Otherwise I would say we are just exhausting our limited resources, not to mention polluting our environment.

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#37
In reply to #33

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 5:49 AM

Snatr, you wrote:

'...It seems to me that all the energy that we are able to produce here on this planet is derived from the sun....'

It is fairly common to see this claim recited, in one form or another, but it surprises me every time I see it. Are people just parroting a catchy slogan without thinking it through?

Nuclear power plants and geothermal power plants are two examples that come immediately to mind.

Nuclear power plants fission isotopes like U-235 and P-239. These isotopes were not produced in the sun and transferred to the earth.

Moreover it isn't just a logistics problem. Even today the fusion occurring in our sun does not generate any of these isotopes. The sun's fusion doesn't create elements much above iron in atomic mass.

Geothermal energy makes use of heat that is generated by decay of isotopes of elements like thorium and uranium and their decay product daughters.

Once again, these components were with our planet as it formed. And as our sun will not become supernova, it will never produce atoms with nuclei large enough to use as fissionable fuel.

Nuclear and Geothermal power plants generate a substantial portion of the world electricity and it is easy to understand these are not derived from the sun.

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#61
In reply to #37

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 10:11 PM

Before I respond, let me just say that I am no expert in this field and merely a casual observer. So don't jump all over me

I really hadn't given much thought to the idea of radioactive isotopes being left behind since the planet's formation. And I see that science attributes as much as 80 or 90 percent of the world's (surface heat?) to this. But I think it doesn't quite add up when you consider that the temperatures grow higher the deeper down you go- I'm assuming deeper than the earth's mantle where most of these isotopes are found. Or considering the age of the planet, I would wonder about the half-lives of these elements. Would they still be going that strong, or was there ever that amount to begin with.
But in defence of my statement of the energy produced here coming from the sun, and with geothermal in mind, I might mention muons. Or the idea that the Earth's rotation is constantly inducing stress from the sun's gravity which would produce friction within. But this is more of a physics topic i guess.

As far as geothermal goes... I think its a great source of energy for us. Especially considering global warming. At least we're not adding any heat in theory. I mean compared to using something like solar cells which in a sense might be considered as heat gathering.

And the idea of using nuclear energy sounds good to me (other than it's dangers) if we are obtaining it from natural sources. Otherwise I would think it would require more energy to produce these materials in the first place. And speaking of producing energy from fission, I saw a demonstration a while back that was conducted in the late 50's I believe where they were able to obtain electricity directy from radiation. Something that was supposed to change the world. I believe it used thermoelectric materials of some kind. I mean think of it, a reactor in every home

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#34

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 1:39 AM

Last year, twice, I answered this question.

If we can discover a room temperature superconductor, (or at least one that operates above -200 F.) we can harness lightning. A grid of superconductive cable, with collection nodes at regular intervals will allow us to use lightning as a power source.

Nuclear is somewhat limited because no one wants the plant near them.

Another possibility is HE3 fusion. We can mine it on the Lunar surface, or pull it directly from the solar wind. Fusion will end any energy crisis for the foreseeable future.

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#35

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 1:45 AM

India is developing thorium reactors. Too bad everyone is so busy being cute that they haven't time to read up on it.

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#36
In reply to #35

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 1:59 AM

A neutron flux of > 12 MW at 1GeV is needed to drive the reaction, so there are a few technical issues to overcome before they go on line.

Check out "energy amplifier"

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#60
In reply to #36

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 9:07 PM

'...A neutron flux of > 12 MW at 1GeV is needed to drive the reaction...'

???

1. Okay, I can understand how a basic misunderstanding of the use of Thorium fuel for nuclear power could lead you to believe ~ 1 GeV neutrons are a requirement for thorium based fuel nuclear reactors.

2. On the other hand, I have no clue what path brought you to the '12MW' figure...

.

As a note, numerous nuclear reactors using various thorium based fuels have been successfully operated with power ranging from 30 kW to 330 MW.

Concerning neutron energies required to use Thorium.....

While there is one specific technology in development called Accelerator Driven Sub-critical Assembly System does utilize an accelerator to provide ~ 1GeV protons to produce ~20 MeV neutrons through spallation, those energies do not represent a requirement a general requirement.

Adding further possibility for confusion, the fission cross section for Th-232 is zero for neutrons with energies below 1MeV. The thing is, using Thorium-based fuel doesn't work that way. Instead Thorium-based fuels rely on conversion of Th-232 through neutron capture (either fast, epithermal or thermal) and beta decay (twice) to U-233, which is the fissile material.

Th-232 has a relatively large cross section for absorption even with neutrons of energies of 0.05 eV (thermal),. U-233 has a relatively high cross section for fission with thermal neutrons. High energy neutrons are not a requirement.

So, tell me more about the '...>12MW...' requirement?

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#50
In reply to #35

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 12:38 PM

I'm busy being hideous, try not to be so discriminatory.

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#39

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 8:15 AM

Long time no see...

Tesla's "1930 Pierce Arrow" Electric Automoblie

http://waterpoweredcar.com/teslascar.html

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#49

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 12:08 PM

Well, the Georgia Guidestones says, just reduce population to 500,000,000. I think that will work

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#51

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/16/2012 3:24 PM

Hard to hug a burning tree.

Ron

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#70

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/17/2012 1:43 PM

I get a bit perturbed when people lump solar, wind and tidal energy schemes into the "new" category. The truth of the matter is that for the first 180,000 years or so of our existence as a species (give or take a few millennia), solar energy was our ONLY source of energy. If it was sufficient, why have we been so anxious to find alternatives?

Humans have been harnessing the wind for a documented 3500 years (probably closer to 5000 years, given that documentation used to take longer to catch up with practice back then). Wind mills were in use in central Asia something like 1000 years ago- long before they appeared in the Netherlands. If wind were so promising, why the need for alternatives?

Tidal? There is a working tidal mill in England (Ealing Mill) that was built by the Romans, and reportedly has been operating for the last 2000 years or so. If tidal energy were so promising, why would we be looking for alternatives?

Ignoring geothermal energy for a bit, controlled nuclear reactions are probably the newest source of energy we have, dating from about the middle of the last century. Oil itself has only been practical as a fuel since about the 1880's, when cracking was developed. Geothermal has been part of the energy mix for quite some time, as well...

Photovoltaic cells are, granted, newer than nuclear, but they are just tapping in to our primary source in a new way, without solving the storage problem...

The first electric automobile was patented some time in the 1830's- something like less than 10 years after Volta demonstrated the first practical storage battery...At the turn of the century in the US, there were more electric vehicles than vehicles powered by internal combustion engines- if they were so wonderful, why did we seek alternatives?

He who does not study history is doomed to making the same mistakes over and over again...

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#73
In reply to #70

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/17/2012 4:16 PM

" If they were so wonderful why did we seek alternatives." You are implying that the scientific knowledge base hasn't changed for 110 years, or your statement makes little sense to me. Electric cars might not quite make sense right now, but they are very close. The Nissan Leaf, and Mitsubishi MIEV are about there right now. It looks like they will fill a large niche in the market. Any battery advances, and lighter bodies will only enlarge that niche. Cost savings in the batteries are the largest factor, and I would think that will come with scale in production also.

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#76
In reply to #73

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/17/2012 6:27 PM

There are a number of reasons why the electric auto was preferred a century ago- cleaner, easier to operate than the alternatives, etc. Henry Ford reportedly seriously considered powering one of his earlier models electrically. The rise of the internal combustion engine can be attributed to three developments: the electric starter (making it easy for anyone to crank one up), cheap gasoline (thanks to the cracking process discovered by a Russian and refined by a Canadian) making "casual transportation" affordable for the masses, and the improvement in roads outside urban areas, giving people all sorts of places to go that an electric auto just could not reach. The newest offerings in the electric automobile universe do not seem to address the last two game-changers in any significant way.

The "promise" of better batteries is likely to continue to be just over the next horizon- storage batteries rely on chemical processes, and there is a limit as to how much energy you can store per pound of chemicals- and a limit to how many times you can reverse the chemical reactions (i.e., recharge the batteries). The electric automobile is not the only technology being dampened by storage considerations- virtually every other "alternative" energy scheme requires some sort of energy storage scheme to make the power available when people want it, rather than when the sun shines or the wind blows. The cost of the typical photovoltaic system that I install here in Panama is driven by battery cost, not solar panels, with the appropriate batteries running as much as 3 times the cost of the panels- and providing something on the order of only 5 years reliable life (in spite of manufacturers' claims of ten years or more).

Providing power from sources other than fossil fuels is relatively easy. Providing the power when people really want to use it is another issue all together...

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#85
In reply to #76

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/18/2012 5:00 PM

At the turn of the century, there were three types of vehicles on the road, IC, electric and steam. Each had their own advantages and disadvantages. As the years passed and improvements came about, one type of vehicle, the gasoline powered vehicle possessed enough advantages to put electric and steam out of the race. Today we are trying to revive electric (some work has been attempted with steam), but I don't see electric replacing IC for a good number of lifetimes. Technology is only part of it. Politics poses the greatest obstacle to progress.

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#86
In reply to #85

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/18/2012 5:29 PM

Amen

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#87
In reply to #85

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/18/2012 7:22 PM

I think CNG will be a strong competitor to gasoline, and electric will be a strong niche competitor. Gasoline, diesel, and CNG etc. can all be used in hybrid vehicles. CNG vehicles can also be switchable to gasoline or diesel. It is foolish to not try to achieve lower fuel prices with competitive fuels and technologies.

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#88
In reply to #87

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/18/2012 7:32 PM

I agree.

We need to remove the people in power that are essentially a branch of Greenpeace and the Sierra Club, and move to safely and responsibly start harvesting the energy that is directly under our feet. CNG has massive potential. We can also design our vehicles to run on a multiplicity of fuels.

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#89

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/19/2012 4:08 PM

You might be interested in this site:

http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/technology/hydro/tidal-power/

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#92

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/20/2012 2:38 PM

Not new by any means but, further investigate the sea as a big battery, potato batteries, lemon batteries, etc.

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#93

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/22/2012 2:10 PM

Methane from biodegradeable waste is old technology but being worked on. Sewage to methane etc. Lightning would require massive capacitors as they might be able to handle the rapid charge rate but there aren't any large enough yet. Tidal power is being done somewhere in Europe and there is a lot being developed as we speak. Geothermal energy production in some areas would be quite feasible. Waste cellulose ethanol from straw and other fibres is becoming more viable and beginning to yeild a net energy gain. It is slowly happening but people and governments need more incentive. When we are looking at the last barrels of fossil oil, then more progress might be made. I think we need to be a bit more proactive.

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#94
In reply to #93

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/22/2012 2:42 PM

From the sound of all the reports about the Canadian Oil shale and the US's Bakken oil shale field reserves it should be a long time before we see the last barrels of fossil oil come out of the ground especially with the natural gas now coming to the market place and replacing oil usage.

See: http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/04/news/economy/oil_shale_bakken/index.htm

There are billions of barrels in our Reserves. This is all coming out of the USA fields and should not be exported. The current price of a barrel of oil is severely inflated over the actual cost of production. In many cases it doesn't cost more than $60 to $80/barrel to bring it out of the ground. In Saudi Arabia and some of the middle east deserts and Nigeria it probably runs more like $35/barrel. Even the Pennsylvania oil fields have new life because of the frigging "fracking" and I'll bet it's producing at $90 or less. Anybody know?

A lot of the current cost is Price Fixing by OPEC. Most of the rest is the Auction Price Increases for Futures. A lot of that is because of Hedge Funds buying and selling these futures among each other, continuously jacking up the price each time they trade the Future. The US, Europe and Asia should either require that if you buy a Future you take delivery. At the most, only one trade allowed per future whether by itself or even if packaged with others to prevent end runs of that rule.

What with the Environmentalists fighting nuclear and coal, unless we want to go back to wearing "union suits" under our jammies and using 2 down quilts at night, moving back to the city for mass transit or riding bicycles to work, we had better make the cost of oil affordable for the masses and stop having Wall Street nickel and dime us to the poor house while they build their mini-Mansions and larger and collect their multi-million dollar bonuses off our backs.

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#95
In reply to #94

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/22/2012 3:43 PM

The cost of oil is artificially low in the U.S. due to the massive subsidies given to the oil producers. US taxpayers support the oil industry.

Hedging or speculating is an essential part of discovering commodity value, without it, markets falter and corruption ensues. Many people feel that shorting stocks or bonds is detrimental, but quite the contrary, it gives the market confidence to buy assets that are priced appropriately. When you say that this oil in the ground we have should not be exported, are you suggesting the government should restrict the energy markets? You'll probably get a few comments on that one. The millions "they" are making off your back are because you keep buying. Wouldn't you rather not buy from them?

Finally, it is demand, and perception of future supply, that drives oil pricing. The economy is slow, but still, globally, demand is high enough to drive us to 105$> By this time next year, both demand and prices will be much higher. So in my mind, the question is about how we might reduce demand, since we do not control supply. Or we could just invade Iran.

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#96
In reply to #95

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/22/2012 4:24 PM

Oil in the ground doesnt matter, if you can't refine it. The refinery's need upgrades badly. It been over 20 years sine a new refinery been built.

Back in 2008 when the price of gas when up over $4.00/gal. People where bellyaching that the Saudi's should open the oil taps for us.

The Saudi's response was. We would be happy to, but why? The U.S. refinery's to refine the oil to gas were running at full capacity the way it was.

It is an indirect way to control the price by controlling the supply. The risk is that if a hurricane came through on the gulf coast and wipe a few of the refinery's out. Expect gas prices to double over night, and thats a start. But the price hike will not gaurantee a supply.

It takes more than a few posts on a blog site to figure out the complicated oil pricing. Because its not just a couple of things. but a number of them that are interconnect and a change to one can have a cascading effect.

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#104
In reply to #96

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/22/2012 6:10 PM

Who is preventing refineries from improvements, and expansions? Who is preventing them from building refineries in Cushing Oklahoma or Patoka Illlinois where oil pipelines end. Those locations are near the center of the USA population? I have never heard an oil company complain of not being allowed to build refineries. They have more money than anyone to spend on getting their messages out.

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#105
In reply to #104

Re: Where are the New Energy Sources?

03/22/2012 7:13 PM
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