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NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 3:01 AM

I have seen so many seemingly convincing "proofs" that the NASA moon landing was fake and is indeed part of a huge conspiracy theory. I am sure most of you have seen the evidence. It seems "very" convincing. What is your take on this? Was the landing fake (takeoff and return genuine)? Were the photos fabricated (perhaps due to poor quality on the moon or some other reason)? What is your opinion?

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#1

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 7:16 AM

I think it was real, but there's no telling. I've always thought that the absence of stars in the background was strange.

It's only a matter of time before someone else, (probably China), lands on the moon.............................I'm sure they will want to see the things we left behind while they're there.

{Edit}

http://phys.org/news171102159.html

http://phys.org/news/2012-03-apollo-stark-beauty.html

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 7:54 AM

Yeah. I believe it was real.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/missions/apollo/apollo_11/

Given the intensity of the cold war though, it wouldn't surprise me if they had a backup plan to stage it if anything went wrong. Knocking the wind out of the soviet's sails was at least as important as the landing itself.

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 7:56 AM

I suppose for people not familiar with video cameras the lack of stars might seem strange, but I think it simply has to do with the dynamic range of the cameras. I've got a Canon camera that can take stills or movies. In movie mode it won't record images of stars, but in still mode I can set the exposure long enough to photograph stars. I've also got a camera specifically designed for photographing stars. There is a TE cooler in it to reduce noise and the camera has 16 bits of gray level for each pixel, so it can take movies of stars if I attach it to an ordinary 35mm camera lens.

I don't think the simple vidicon tubes they were using in the late 1960s and '70s had enough dynamic range by themselves to image the astronauts in full sunlight and capture the faint background stars, too. After Apollo 11 the cameras had color filter wheels for making color images; they would have needed a second filter wheel with neutral density filters and additional electronics to extend the dynamic range, but that would have made the cameras more complex and would have added weight.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 8:30 AM

Yeah. The stars are there in some of the still photos. I had delved into this whole conspiracy thing years ago, (a couple of hours on the internet), and came away still believing it was real. If the government was going to fake something, it would be done well enough so that there would be no question that it was real.

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#42
In reply to #1

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 4:58 PM

Every huge event such as the JFK assaination, 9/11 and the Moon landing, to name just a few, seems to inspire speculation concerning a conspiracy. Then many well known names thought to be in a position to be in the know are quoted by the nut proclaiming the conspiracy which supposedly involves dozens of people.

If there is to be a true copnspiacy there can be only one person involved, not dozens. Think about it. It takes only one loose tongue to blow the cover so any big "job" has to be a solo act in order to assure secrecy.

The moral...don't waste good time pondering the possiblity of conspiracies.

Lou Bindner

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#44
In reply to #42

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 10:48 PM

'...If there is to be a true copnspiacy there can be only one person involved, not dozens. Think about it. It takes only one loose tongue to blow the cover so any big "job" has to be a solo act in order to assure secrecy....'

This is a great example of a formal fallacy known as 'appeal to probability'. Just because something can happen does not mean it will.

.

Judgements about the frequency of successfully concealed conspiracies can be skewed by inherent sampling error. Successfully concealed conspiracies are essentially 100% under-reported (unless you happen to be a successful conspirator yourself).

.

A belief that groups are incapable operating in and maintaining secrecy, would be hard to reconcile with:

an understanding of the efficacy of information security protocols;

a recognition that disinformation has been and will continue to be utilized as an important tool of counter-intelligence;

or even an acknowledgement that any groups in the intelligence community ever operates successfully.

.

Also 'to be a true conspiracy there can' NOT 'be only one person involved'. Conspiracy by definition requires two or more people.

.

I do find the moral you outlined to be good advice...'...don't waste good time pondering the possiblity of conspiracies... Applying a rigorous critical attitude uniformly to all important information should keep most out of that trap.

.

For the record, I am fairly certain that we actually landed...several times. I find that feat more impressive than the ability of a sizable group to coordinate actions known only to that group without meaningful information leaks.

Denying the possibility of organizations (governments, corporations, NGO's) engaging in operations of dubious legality, to which the greater population is not privy, would seem to require a similar mindset to those who believe Lizard people have infiltrated our leadership and are conspiring to subdue the world population with chemtrails and HAARP until planet Nibiru returns to enslave everyone.

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#49
In reply to #42

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/14/2012 11:38 AM

WAIT A MINUTE !!!! Are you saying that JFK was assassinated on the moon??? That explains why in all of the news reels I've seen everything is going so slowly!! It happened before I was born so I didn't even know that he went to the moon!! But what about all of the other people in the pictures? they all went there too? Then it should be relatively easy to figure out who shot him, just keep them all there until someone fesses up!

Oh wow, they have a book depository there too!?! We must have a whole colony there! This is great, I wanna go... But the books say he was shot in Texas ... I ain't never been to Tex ... CRAP, TEXAS IS ON THE MOON!!!

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#52
In reply to #49

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/14/2012 12:20 PM

LOL!!

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#76
In reply to #42

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/23/2012 6:58 PM

Was the Manhattan Project a conspiracy? Its existence was kept a secret for years in spite of the tremendous costs and sheer numbers of scientists and engineers, logistics personnel, materiel, corporations' and universities' involvement and at a number of different locations: Los Alamos (bomb development and testing), Hanford (plutonium production), Oak Ridge (isotope separation), Princeton (physicists and engineers). Copper was scarce during WW II and so to wind the magnet coils for their calutrons, Oak Ridge borrowed $400 million in silver from the U.S. Treasury in order make the magnet wire (they had to return it of course. drat!). How do you hide something like that if you're just one person? The M.P. was not a conspiracy, but a damn good model for one in a pinch, non?

If something of this scale can be pulled off so well (barring spies like Klaus Fuchs, David Greenglass and Theodore Hall), why can/must only one person be involved in a conspiracy? But really, I have a different question.

My question is this: why is our government deemed incapable of the 'C' word in the eyes of so many Americans, as if by magic? Ample historical precedents notwithstanding, Uncle Sam has the most to gain - and lose - so why not? Is money mute inside the Beltway? It ceases to speak altogether? Greed? Avarice? Power-mongering? Self-interest? All these just vanish once Mr. Smith steps onto Constitution Avenue? Why are we so unwilling to look behind the curtain, or don't we the time in our headlong rush to crown with tinfoil hats every person who truly dares?

Yeah, there are conspiracy nuts. Lots of 'em. And there are conspiracies too. Just follow the money.

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#4

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 8:11 AM

Ah, the truth is seeping in. Big brother has a long reach. The Kennedy assassination was a fake, scripted by Robert Ludlum and Tom Clancy. However, they are a clever plot to mislead us, they were invented by Michael Shepherd.

When you get to the end of these tortuous plots you will find that the universe doesn't exist, it is a conspiracy theory perpetrated by you, you who are the universe in its totallity. The rest of us have been invented by you to drive away boredom.

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#6

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 8:34 AM

Yes, the camera details/explanations do make things clearer. But from an unbiased angle the evidence that the landings were fake really seem to be genuine claims. It is diffiucult to ignore facts/evidence that are so clear and straightforward! I am trying to convince myself that the evidence is fake! The issue of the flag not bollowing/billowing, the etch marks on the glass plates, picture of first man stepping ontop the lunar surface taken from a camera that was mounted (by whom/what)? What do you all say?

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#7
In reply to #6

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 8:42 AM

If you do some internet research, you will find that the flag had to be specially designed to look like it was flying...................there is no wind on the moon.

http://physics.bgsu.edu/~layden/A212H/Gloria/hoax_flag.htm

If you continue looking, you can find specifics as to it's design. These "proofs" of it being a hoax have been covered ad nauseam.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 8:49 AM

Even Mythbusters has addressed this question. The supposed evidence that the landings were faked has all been shown to be less than accurate interpretations of the available information.

There is ample proof that man has been on the moon, including a mirror for calibrating the distance from the earth to the moon. Tire tracks persist to this day from all of the "dune buggy" exploration done on some of the landings.

You know, I'm sure that there are still conspirators that believe that everything is composed of just 4 elements; earth, air, fire, and water. And there are people who believe that the earth is only 3000 years old. I suppose everyone is entitled to their own opinion NO MATTER HOW WRONG THEY ARE!

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#70
In reply to #6

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/17/2012 5:06 AM

Personally, I don't believe anyone has ever made a legitimate soft landing on the Earth.

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#9

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 10:12 AM

My opinion is that there is more than enough fuel in the form of ignorance to keep conspiracy theories going longer than there is hydrogen to fuel the Sun.

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#10

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 10:13 AM

The internet is a hoax, this site is a hoax, life is a hoax, religion is hoax.
I is a Cat

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 10:26 AM

Typical of The Cat!

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#15
In reply to #10

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 11:27 AM

Right-on kitty.....you go!!!!!!!!!!

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#12

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 10:31 AM

Please.......................trust me, they really did it.

I get mildly miffed when this crap comes up.

I spent many years working every day on assemblies that were used in the space program. No one would spend as much money and time as we spent back then for a flippin hoax.

Many dedicated men and women toiled well into the night, night after night, to put the US into space.

To suggest that this entire program was a hoax is an insult to every one of us who worked on those projects.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 10:57 AM

No need to get miffed. A hoax would have been so much less expensive. Those who believe the whole moon thing was less than real can't visualize the kind of dollars spent. Those kinds of numbers are just beyond their ability to fathom.

From their point of view, those kind of projects never existed, therefore you must be a figment of their imagination and these responses are generated by other people who don't exist.

If ignorance is bliss, wisdom is torture!

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 11:01 AM

Can't help it. The only thing that makes me madder is when some total idiot suggests that the World Trade Center was rigged with explosives. That makes me crazy!

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 1:21 PM

Yeah that one gets to me too.
I have a video of me shooting a big crossbow into a target. The bolt hits and a big cloud of dust is shaken out of the target.
I'm sure the conspiracy theorists would say this was smoke from a charge set by the CIA to make the... blah blah blah... zzzzzzzzz
Del
(Yeah but.....)

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#41
In reply to #14

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 2:16 PM

Or that Nazi Germany Europe never happened along with all of the atrocities

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#21
In reply to #12

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 3:46 PM

RIGHT ON!!!

Jack - Actually a former NASA contractor for the Mars self-roving version rover mission (yes they outsourced to NZ, no this particular mission was canceled).

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#16

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 11:59 AM

This may be relevant to your interests:
Source: http://xkcd.com/258/

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#18

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 3:15 PM

the usa was in a space race with russia at the time. politicians though it was imperative to one-up the soviets. i'm sure nasa tried to make a moon launch and it's probable they did, but maybe not. all we needed to do was convince the russians that we did.

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#22
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Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 5:43 PM

You are free to believe what you want. Just do not expect anyone to take you seriously.

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#23
In reply to #18

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 8:56 PM

That is an incredibly stupid statement, I'm sorry mods, but it just is. The Russians had good radio, directional radio, their technology was on a par with ours; as a matter of fact, we thought they were more advanced and would have recognized the futility of trying such a procedure.

It would have been impossible to fool them with fake signals.

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#19

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 3:32 PM

My cousin was the historian at NASA in the control room in Houston during the fist mission to the moon. It was real, he cannot keep a seceret so it is impossible for him to have kept something this big for so long.

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#20

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 3:43 PM

<sigh> Yes we landed on the moon, go look at all the evidence again.

I have seen so many seemingly convincing "proofs" that the NASA moon landing was fake

I have seen so many seemingly convincing "proofs" that......

A man can flap his wings and fly

Free energy and perpetual motion are real

The moon itself is a hoax

People have been abducted by aliens (don't bother with an internet search, just read some of the threads from former members on CR4 I have been involved with)

etc, etc.

You can convincingly prove anything you want with a little ignorance, bias, compelling "evidence" and fake video.

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#24

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 11:28 PM

CR4 desperately needs to block Conspiracy Theorists.

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#27
In reply to #24

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 3:27 AM

No...
Censorship is rarely a good thing.
You/we simply need to ignore them...
The half life of a thread is about 2 days, unless it is fueled or relates to breaking cast iron baths
Del
(PS. The 'subscribe' button functions as an 'unsubscribe' button too)

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#30
In reply to #27

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 6:31 AM

The Cat is back!

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#35
In reply to #24

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 7:18 AM

We should, perhaps, conspire but no cats allowed in the circle.

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#71
In reply to #24

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/17/2012 6:34 PM

This is a guy who thinks says that "altenator gases are acidic" and that corrodes battery terminals

See comment here

Ignore them; report them, ask moderators to remove obviously stoopid content.

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#25

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/10/2012 11:35 PM

On the one hand, anyone with a really good telescope, at the time, should have been able to detect the lunar lander, at least as a reflective speck, if they looked long enough...

So, I have to ask if any creditable claimants have come forward and admitted that they couldn't see the lander, then, or since then? It is, after all, still up there, isn't it?

Other the other hand, I personally thought some of the still photos did look "fishy" at the time...

However, I suspect that the bottom line is simply that, for political reasons, it was determined that we could not spend all that time, effort, political capital, and money, without a guarantee that it could be (witnessed) by television viewers all the way back here on terra firma...

So, I suspect that there was a back-up plan to build a creditable replica of the moon surface, in a sound stage somewhere, in order to insure that there would be a plausible image to televise, "live", no matter what the weather conditions were at the time, and whatever technical difficulties there might actually be...

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#26

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 12:44 AM

I tend to think it was real. When did the government EVER manage to do anything as amazingly perfect as the charade it would have taken to keep a fake landing - much less six - hidden for forty years.

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#39
In reply to #26

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 11:37 AM

For the record, I don't think the moon landings were faked....

...but I still have to call foul on your argument:

1. I find successfully landing on the moon more 'amazingly perfect' than keeping a secret for forty years...after all, if it were a secret, then all the conspiracy theorists believing in a faked landing would actually be correct and therefor counted as people who figured out the hoax....so not such a perfect secret really.

2. Perfectly performed deceptions will be unknown, so 'when have they ever' does not provide evidence of absence.

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#46
In reply to #39

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/12/2012 4:51 PM

The thing is: any evidence that there was no conspiracy is considered to be greater proof of the conspiracy.

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#77
In reply to #39

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/23/2012 8:12 PM

I agree.

If you needed to hide something really big from a lot of people for a long time, how would you do it?

Anyone?

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#28

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 6:03 AM

The whole thing presupposes that the Moon exists first.

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#29

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 6:21 AM
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#31
In reply to #29

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 6:32 AM

So, NASA wasn't the first?

We got beat by some clown?

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#36
In reply to #31

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 8:09 AM

Touché.

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#32

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 6:52 AM

It was real.....not faked.

It has been possible to look at the landing sites and see the rubbish they left behind. Not forgetting the laser reflector either....

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#72
In reply to #32

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/17/2012 11:31 PM

As I recall, there was an issue of Scientific American that discussed the uses of the data gained by bouncing beams off said reflector. One of which was that, after some resultant data-crunching, the location coordinates of the Naval Observatory in Boulder, Colorado, were found to be slightly off, and were subsequently adjusted as a consequence of such reflective activity...

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#78
In reply to #72

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/23/2012 8:20 PM

The McDonald Observatory in Fort Davis, Texas used the retro-reflector on the Moon for laser ranging, and there is not and never has been a Naval observatory in Boulder, Colorado. NCAR, University of Colorado and NIST (was NBS) are there, but not the N.O.

Just sayin'

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#79
In reply to #78

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/23/2012 10:49 PM

Actually, the U. S. Navy does operate an "Alternative Master Clock" site, in Colorado, Springs, which it does rate as a "United States Naval Observatory"...

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#33

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 6:54 AM

No, back then we could do stuff like that!

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 7:01 AM

Now, that was good!

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#40
In reply to #33

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 11:46 AM

"No, back then we could do stuff like that!"

With slide rules and stop watches, no less!

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#43
In reply to #40

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 9:52 PM

well we did have the HP 9100 calculator- if you could afford it! I also worked on many of the NASA missions and certainly never faked a damn thing!

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#73
In reply to #43

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/17/2012 11:47 PM

As I recall from my early Civil Engineering days, we used an HP E(lectronic) D(istance) M(easuring) device to survey between quarter section corners and distant property lines. It seemed like high-tech at the time in the early eighties. We also used an HP9100B calculator with an early version of COGO (Coordinate Geometry software) to analyse the survey data for accuracy. Now-a-days, I do that with a spreadsheet in an old version of Excel(R)... Not very glamorous, by comparison, but necessary in their own way at the time...

Anyway, time and technology marches on...

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#45
In reply to #40

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/12/2012 3:10 PM

The Engineers did not make rooky mistakes when making calculations by forgetting to convert the systems of measure US customary unit to metric and vise-versa. Mars lander became the Mars impactor

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#37

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 9:02 AM

Of course it's fake! If you look hard enough, you'll see (in the background) the fuzzy pictures of the Lochness monster and a UFO, right and left respectively.

You can't believe anything you see online, on TV, in pictures or even in real life.

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#38

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/11/2012 9:50 AM

Another %&*#%^^ Conspiracy Theorists about faked moon landings!!!!

Another clueless idiot!

IT WAS REAL.

As far as the dang flag "moving" on the moon thing......there were 2 spring-load metal rods (at the top and bottom of the flag) anchored to the flagstaff that held out the flag, hence the flag's movement in the vacuum in space.

Geeezzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

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#47

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/13/2012 2:19 PM

Yes, I think that the moon landings were real.

However, we should not assume that conspiracies don't exist. Many assassinations were conspiracies: Lincoln, Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Nasser, et al. It is clear that Pearl Harbor was not a surprise attack and that the conspiracy to hide intercepted messages, etc. was successful for about 60 years. No, the Lusitania (torpedoed in 1915) was not an innocent passenger liner. It was a Royal Navy auxiliary cruiser, armed with 12 six-inch guns. It was loaded with explosives, as confirmed by images of the wreck and the ship's manifest, now in the Truman library. William Jennings Bryan, then Secretary of State, resigned because Wilson covered up the facts. Even today, most histories repeat the propaganda lies of the time. Clearly there was a conspiracy to bring down the Twin Towers on 9/11. The question is who the conspirators were, the alleged Saudi terrorists and/or others. Surely, with all the lies and deceptions involved, one might call the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld rush to invade Iraq a conspiracy.

Before you out of hand dismiss a conspiracy theory, remember that all politicians tell lies.

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#50
In reply to #47

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/14/2012 12:18 PM

Most of what you wrote is unproven theory and unproven conspiracy charges, mixed in with a few true facts......very misleading.....totally inappropriate here to my mind on CR4.

My friendly advice (if you wish to take it of course!) is to try and stay with proven facts. It will earn you a far better reputation here than such stuff....but there are always people around that will believe anything, but I am not one of them, most of the Engineers on CR4 are the same.....

Each to his own opinion of course......Have a great day anyway.

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#53
In reply to #50

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/14/2012 8:58 PM

What did I state that was factually incorrect? Please enlighten me, so I can correct my mistakes.

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#54
In reply to #47

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/15/2012 7:22 AM

This is really in reply to your most recent post.

Pearl harbour was a screw up of the US high command and the misinterpretation available information from radio intercepts and spies, and simply not believing all the indications, which indicated an attack somewhere in the Pacific in that time.....the US Government was specifically warned by UK government, but the NIH factor came into play....as it often does....

That has been covered in detail over the years many times over. The US High Command doing a CYA after the event still does not make it a conspiracy (if there was a conspiracy, it was AFTER the event as they did do a possible "cover up" of their stupitity).....Nor does any serious coverage even use the word.

I take this link as being a reasonably well balanced take on the subject:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Harbor_attack

To quote:- There were numerous historical precedents for unannounced military action by Japan. However, the lack of any formal warning, particularly while negotiations were still apparently ongoing, led President Franklin D. Roosevelt to proclaim December 7, 1941, "a date which will live in infamy".

While U.S. Pacific bases and facilities had been placed on alert on multiple occasions, U.S. officials doubted Pearl Harbor would be the first target. They expected the Philippines to be attacked first.

They also incorrectly believed that Japan was not capable of mounting more than one major naval operation at a time.

The Lusitania was built with money from the RN to allow it to be converted for naval usage, though totally impractical through fuel consumption and never converted. It had no mounted guns on the final voyage. There is no evidence that the guns were EVER mounted.

It was carrying a cargo of munitions, it was a British ship, therefore it was a legal target on all accounts (even if it had had an early Atom Bomb onboard, nothing would be different!), even if morally questionable with the sheer number of civilians on board and the missing previous practice of warning before sinking, that was not carried out....

For many years after the WW2, wrecks were used for target practice for anti submarine tactics by the RN, wrecks outside of territorial waters.....no conspiracy there either.....normal business

Read here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Lusitania

In the event, the ships proved to be impractical armed cruisers (the liners all had very high fuel consumption and were found to be too expensive for the Admiralty to operate). Lusitania and other express liners were released from the Royal Navy shortly after the commencement of the war with instructions to resume passenger services, while Mauretania performed service as a troop ship.

William Jennings Bryan was a pacifist who opposed Wilson and his policies, even though Wilson initially tried to keep the US out of WW1, and Bryan resigned over these differences, probably not improved by the loss of the Lusitania, but not because of them or the covering up of any facts....no conspiracy here, just a difference of opinion....normal politics to my mind.

Clearly there was not a conspiracy to bring the twin towers down, as has been shown in many "serious" documents and reportage. The "explosions" were just expelled air and debris as each floor collapsed on the next one down......like an air pump.

No residue of explosives were ever found in the towers and as we all know, this cannot be "hidden" if there....though some people have "found" Thermite in samples found away from the buildings, samples that could be tainted by for example railway workers joining rails....also it has never been proved to be thermite from the Twin Towers by any body of known good character.

Think of all the tests done by many outside companies to find the victims, if just one body sample had been contaminated by explosives, do you think that it would not have been exposed......

But for anyone to be right about conspiracies in 9/11, there would need to be the following (the list is not exhaustive!):-

1) Al Quaida and the US government would need to collude to choose a target, to steal the planes and to install secretly the explosives (by the way, thermite burns, not explodes).

2) Agree on a time/date to do the dirty deed.

3) Only collapse the buildings "below" the planes impact, the floors above sort of "riding down" till the collapse stopped.....that is wonderful flying for amateurs who learnt on small planes, now flying aircraft many times longer, wider and far far heavier on which they had absolutely NO EXPERIENCE, but who could still pick the right "floor" for the agreed effect, to fly into!!! WOW!!!

There will always be people who are seduced by a slick word or two and plenty of people around to write those slick words for books and TV programs to take money off the suckers.......9/11 was "built" for such slick writers and their followers of suckers.....

I am sure that Al Quaida would have proclaimed LONG ago that they were assisted by the US Government of the time if there had been even a tiny amount of cooperation/collusion......what do they have to lose.....? and a lot to gain.....

You wrote:- one might call the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld rush to invade Iraq a conspiracy.

No I would not.....many US citizens lost their lives in 9/11 and other similar attacks around the world leading up to this war, the US is slow to anger, but they do have a big "FIST", it was the right time to use it!!! No conspiracy, it was time to act.....

Do not forget that Sadaam was buying war materials from many countries, including Germany, UK and the USA for many years beforehand, he was in cahoots with Al Quaida, he thought he could do anything he wanted.......he could not!

I hope I have been able to show at least part of the other side of the conspiracy coin for at least a few of your assertions.... You will notice that I have explained things more fully and given serious links and quotes where possible. You have not done that up to now, may I ask why? Throwaway comments are just that, throwaway.....never forget that.

You will notice that many of your other comments I have simply ignored as I do not want to waste (particularly) my time and anyone else's more than necessary. But if you wish, with a few more days work I can possibly refute most of those as well......but I do have far better things to do as I am sure you do as well.....

Conspiracies have happened, but due to the nature of the beast, most are outed by one or more of the conspirators themselves eventually as humans have a need to be recognized, for good or bad.....you might say, we as a race, cannot keep secrets well.....time is the only way some are kept I feel!!! When all are dead!!! Sadly....

At the end of the day, we must all believe what we want to, that same goes for me and for you. We must use our own built-in intelligence, experience and practical knowledge to make a balanced judgement of such situations and not to be (mis-)lead by people who just want to make money out of such awful happenings.

If someone is making money, there will be changes made, stuff covered up and other morally wrong deeds.....its always the way....

Have a great day....

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/15/2012 2:32 PM

I suppose we should agree to disagree on the meaning of "conspiracy". I would call the concerted action of aircraft highjackers a conspiracy. I would consider the concerted action of several people to lie to congrsss a conspiracy. I suppose that when Churchill told the Lusitania's destroyer escort to go home and ordered the captain to reduce speed "to save coal" he might have acted alone, without conspiracy, but the coverup qualifies. Even if conspiratorial actions seem morally justified, as in war tme, that does not negate my statement that conspiracies are common enough that belief does not automatically make one a nut case.

Wikipedia articles are seldom exhaustive. The one on Pearl Harbor does not mention the recent publishing of message intercept logs showing that we were tracking the Japamese carriers and they were not practicing radio silence.

[p] On a slightly different topic, how is it that major structural failures, like bridges collapsing, usually result in published failure analyses, disgrace for the designers, and revised codes, yet, as far as I know, engineering students are not told specifically how not to design steel framed buildings like the World Trade Towers and Building 7. What stupid mistake did the engineers make? How many professional engineers lost their licenses?

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/15/2012 3:06 PM

" What stupid mistake did the engineers make? How many professional engineers lost their licenses?"

That statement is totally uncalled for. How would you have designed the buildings to withstand a direct hit and thousands of gallons of burning fuel.

Don't be ridiculous!

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#58
In reply to #56

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/15/2012 4:10 PM

You are so right.

I think it indicates that our "friend" is simply not an engineer of any type, dont you agree?

But he appears to feel he is an expert on conspiracies, but AG has shown him the true path, again.

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#59
In reply to #56

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/15/2012 4:19 PM

How true.

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#63
In reply to #56

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 11:57 AM

The architects claimed they had allowed for a jet plane flying into the building. Clearly, the impact did not cause an immediate collapse. The fuel was consumed quickly, and was not hot enough to weaken large steel beams. Photos of people on the burning floors, some jumping, suggests the fires were all that hot at first. If fire caused the collapse, it was ordinary contents, like furniture and carpets burning. Surely, when designing an office building, one allows for that. Why did the NY Fire Dept. not demand better fire proofing? I'm not saying that explosives or thermite were used to bring down the buildings. I'm saying that, if there was no unusual "encouragement" to collapse they were inadequately designed for ordinary hazards. The three World Trade buildings are the only steel-framed skyscrapers in history to collapse because of a fire. Building 7 wasn't even hit by a plane. NIST says one column buckled, and it went like a house of cards. Surely there are some lessons to be learned about safety factors and single point failures and fireproofing. Where are the revised building codes and updated textbooks?

When the Titanic went down, similar ships were modified with better compartmentation, and the rules concerning life boats and monitoring wireless were changed. When the three towers went down, what changed, designwise?

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#64
In reply to #63

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 11:58 AM

Give it a break!

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#65
In reply to #63

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 12:02 PM

Please tell us you aren't suggesting that the building was rigged with explosives.

Only total idiots could subscribe to that theory.

Almost everyone who does suggest such is from Utah. Need I say more?

Look up the origin of "thermitic materials" the "smoking gun" the zealots/looneys from Utah say they "discovered".

Please, don't even..............................

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 12:17 PM

I just popped in to see why I'm still subscribed to this thread.........................................can't come up with a good reason at this point.

Nothing I say will be nice. Guess I'll check out.

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#67
In reply to #66

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 12:28 PM

It reached the point of diminishing returns long ago.

Now I po'd by the wacko.

Think I'll join you, and leave the "theorists" to their mischief.

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#75
In reply to #63

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/23/2012 6:51 PM

There seems to be no shortage of WTC conspiracy discussions, we in UK seem to have missed. Some impressive technology if they did use r/c aircraft and missile launchers. But that's not the Lunar Mission.

A South African student of mine has just re-started my interest in the Apollo/ Capricorn One ideas. Apparently he has come across an enormous hanger/ studio built prior to the Moon Landings, (later dismantled I think) which could have given rise to the rumour. It makes sense to me that a TV studio was ready to act if the lunar mission got into difficulties. Since the PR necessity for USA was so great, NOTHING was going to stop them 'landing on the Moon', especially as it was such a high risk adventure.

Now what do you say about the re-touched Moon shots? Black sky painted in .. why? For artistic reasons or to hide unwanted backgrounds...?

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#57
In reply to #55

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/15/2012 4:07 PM

You are doing it again, changing the playing area and still talking conspiracies and not supplying a single reference of proof, just your say-so.

So now the WTC was not a conspiracy between the US Government and AQ? That was quick, but you are right, the AQ terrorists did conspire to damage several buildings.....wow!!

If that is your definition of a conspiracy, I guess the USA, the UK and its commonwealth, the Soviet Union eventually and many people from Europe who managed to get to the UK CONSPIRED together to erase Adolph Hitler and all that he stood for!!!!

That is not my definition of a conspiracy, but it could be someone's I suppose....

But did you notice that the interpretation of the first Sea Lord's "errors" in 1915 with respect to the Lusitania are probably only to be found in books that were sold for profit.....no proof. That is what happens when people want to make money from writing a book or similar, you should not let it suck you in. But if you have something more solid on that subject, I would appreciate the link.

I can find no reference that Churchill gave such instructions to the Lusitania, in fact, the Admiralty (under Churchill from 1911) gave instructions to proceed with utmost haste due to possible U-Boot attacks.....

Churchill took the full blame for the Gallipoli fiasco, no cover up there.....no "conspiracy"....

Your comments about Pearl Harbour are to my mind correct (I saw a fairly recent program on the BBC which if my memory serves me correctly published the same infos) proves yet again how stupid was the US Naval high command in ignoring all the intelligence, not that there was a conspiracy....

With regard to collapsed bridges, it is usually found that lack of proper maintenance plus no thought as to the lifetime of the bridge (local government saving money?) are often the reasons for failure. Its a conspiracy between the LG and its Bankers saving money!!!

Engineers have their work checked again and again for structural safety reasons, but no bridge/building is proof against local government stupidity....

We have a saying here in Germany, it works in English too:-"He saves money, no matter what it costs!" You can apply it to everyday life everywhere....

Incorrect and inadequate foam insulation in the twin towers on its structural steel probably accelerated its demise, I have even seen photos of the shoddy workmanship on a good program explaining why it failed as it did when the jet fuel ignited and burnt.......

As the Twin Tower buildings were what? 30 odd years old (I don't remember exactly, sorry), designed in an era that predates such terrorism, you find the designers were at fault!!!! It stood a lot longer than some far eastern super markets......I am sure the WTC would be here today if nobody had flown a loaded jet plane into each one......

Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, you still are not supplying ANY links, good or bad, why not? It makes your beliefs look even shakier not supplying them....

May I also respectfully then ask for links with your comments, or at least far less throwaway comments please?

You will never convince me of anything in this manner, nor many others either here......referable facts facts facts......thanks in advance for your understanding.

PS. As you notice, I have refrained from posting any links this time, the reasons being that my previous post already had the links referring to most of what I referenced here, you simply need to read them fully.....

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#48

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/13/2012 3:14 PM

Given the mind set of these and other "conspiracy fans" I can't get my bowels in enough of an uproar to even speculate on their postulations. They must be pretty hardup for intelectual (per Webster: developed or chiefly guided by the intellect rather than by emotion or experience) exercise. That's 30.

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#51
In reply to #48

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/14/2012 12:19 PM

GA

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#60

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 1:35 AM

My dear! What a divergence from the original line of discussion!

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#61

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 4:28 AM
  • Apollo 13 was fake - there was a movie about it.
  • Titanic's sinking was fake - there was a movie about that.
  • No-one has done a movie about Apollo 11....
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#62
In reply to #61

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 7:06 AM

Hollywood is about to do a remake of Giligan's Island, which is irrevocable proof that they have run out of creative ideas.

Apollo 11: The Conspiracy can't be far behind.

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#68

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 1:12 PM
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#69

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/16/2012 9:01 PM

If your a budhist, your life is a hoax

Of course we landed on the moon, there a whole nazi base up there.

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#74

Re: NASA Moon Mission Fake

04/19/2012 1:38 AM

Its a pity, we would have had a beautiful COnspircay Revealed part 3 movie on this!!!

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