Lost in Translation

Moving from room to room like this, what a treat. A regular science gallery. My humble offer would first be to myself:

"When trying to convey an idea, pretend you're an idiot on the other side, reading it". Now, waitaminute, don't bite me just yet.

This is not to say the potential reader is an idiot. but tip-toeing with this kind of effort, you're bound to come out clear, concise, and meaningful, which is ideally good for any reader.

The second is the old saying: "If you cannot sum your most complicated theory into a single sentence, don't bother, a long string of those will not make it any clearer"

This one, too, is not literal. It doesn't mean: Start writing theories in just one sentence. What it does, is to force you into coherent phrasing, and to avoid your argument from going in tedious circles, or spreading confusing haze of irrelevant or unrelated set of assumptions. Write of what you are relatively sure of. Spread knowledge, not doubts.

Both those philosophies for expressing something are wise ideas. If a person cannot express something well in their own language , meaning will have no chance of surviving a language translation. Idiom and metaphor do not travel well. In addition , somebody who has spent a long time focused on a specific thing , will start to loose understanding of the basics required to convey meaning. The instructions to go with any new device , should be test proved in the developers native language.

Ikea flat-pack furniture , would not be too difficult a challenge for Engineers if it had no instructions . I've met many people baffled by Ikea instructions who fare better when they have the courage to trust their own judgement. Electronic goods are a different matter (the advice 'find a teenager' does not always work ).

Without meaning to cause offence , many Eastern goods suffer in translation. My guess is that pronunciation of how a product works is written down wrongly. More specifically , 'r' and 'l' get mixed up. I was once involved in a project using a multi-million pound bentonite-shield for tunneling. It was manufactured in Japan and contained numerous such errors in the mountain of manuals (which were put together in japan). I can only guess that one person was dictating to another , but the precise mechanism of translation loss is a mystery. The consequence was not drastic , but it did add to the time taken in referring to the manuals . I would be surprised if this process did not happen the other way around , with Japanese engineers struggling to work out translation by British people describing British goods in Japanese language. Apart from this example , I encountered many language problems whilst working for a Japanese company ( The language skills of my Japanese colleagues put Western people like myself to shame)

You've been looking at too many haynes manuals! I have a Moto Guzzi manual somewhere; translated from Italian, thats got a couple in, I'll have to check it out.

Good old Haynes ! I was amazed when a mate told me the originator was still alive - I'd got visions of some long gone car buff . I knew the manuals had diversified to domestic appliances and computers , but thought it was just a case of continuing a brand. I haven't read the link yet (I was too excited !) - About every bloke I know has a Haynes manual somewhere. Haynes has rocketed onto and up my personal list for Engineering Hero's I started - what a useful set of books. Brilliant PlbMak - I could kiss you for it (but only if they bring out a manual on it . Please god - don't let them ever diversify that much !)

For anybody not familiar , Haynes manuals are a must have for ripping up and repairing stuff (mainly cars).

Well, your post only raised the whole issue of translation accuracy in general terms.

One evident reason why no AI implementation of complete document translation, is there for the taking, has to do with the fact that translation is a deep contextual problem, not a lexical one.

You have cheap gadgets ready with millions of dictionary items on several language, willing and able to translate each word apart, not yet able to construct a passage, let alone a complete document.

Why? You need a vast sum of knowledge, trivial and meaningful and contextual, on both cultural-sides of the required translation, in order to produce a meaningful phrasing, not yet perfect, only adequate to convey the massage. writhing and phrasing styles is they far beyond that.

Why again? Because you are not really in the business of translating words, but in the business of translating cultural equivalents of a meaning.

This is why meet Chinenglish or Koreaninglish, or Japaninglish, instead of the old-country chatter we are familiar with.

They try to convey their cultural gestures of an abstract, literally translated by lexical means. We only know it barely work, because we feel it as somewhat quirky put. We actually feel compelled to reverse-translate it, from Japaninglish, back to our familiar style of phrasing, just to extract or recover the abstract, into an idea we can conceive and digest.

I for one can instantly recognise Israelinglish, right on the spot, when written here for instance, by guests. For me it is so, because I'm familiar to both cultural psyche.

Is that a fair presentation of AI ?

I thought AI was about trying to mimic humans , or show 'intelligence' (whatever that means ). Any number of chip assemblies can regurgitate a translated word. I've seen utilities that do the same with sentences . I doubt these have much sophistication in sorting grammar .However is there not a parsing process in computing , where the silicon-brain processes high level commands (albeit to an exact logic ) into contextual meaning- I'd say this was translation of sentences. I am way out of my depth on this , and an AI thread probably exist . It's an entirely valid issue to raise though .

I was more looking at the experience of hurling a manual out of the window because the thing was gibberish. Why does a company spend millions developing a product , then fail to get a bilingual person to review the manual . My 20 GBP German weather station has a well written manual (fair enough many would say , because England and Germany are close and plenty of bi-lingual people exist to help do this ). Why in the 21st century do we still have crap manuals crossing the world between East and West ? I think a large onus of responsibility lies on the West. We should be educating our people more. This is somewhat hypocritical of me , having no skill in other languages , but I'd like to provoke English (and other western) speaking countries into considering the folly of not promoting the study of foreign language.

If I buy a cheap digital watch that has been produce in millions , the setting instructions go in the bin and I use what amounts to trial and error to work out which button does what. The cost of finding someone to effect a good translation would be very small . Do the marketing people really think 'screw you , you've already bought it , so we don't care' ? If I had a list of persistent offenders I'd vote with my feet when buying stuff. I wonder how many dusty emergency manuals sit on shelfs for the OMG moment they're needed , only to create a OM*****G moment.

AI is not I and spell checkers obviously do not improve text.

When an aspiring writer dared to ask Ernest Hemingway how to write well, he was supposed to receive two answers:

(a) Start at the beginning, then go on and when you've finished - stop.

(b) First tell them what you are going to tell them, then tell them, then tell them what you told them.

Whoever writes instruction manuals is supposed to know what he is taking about. The fact that he knows makes it difficult for him to realise that whoever is reading the instructions does not know.

If we look at the administrative mechanics of the birth of a manual (translated, more often then not) it is a miracle that any hint can be extracted from it at all.

BTW is your weather station a Lacrosse?

Kris,

Yes Mr Haynes was a significant part of my earlier life too - I needed to repair various cars on a regular basis and the Haynes Manual was the tool for the job.Of particular note is the feature that every job was photographed many times so that we could follow the jopb through easily.

As it happens I now live quite close to his publishing headquarters and he now has a successful museum of many significant cars which is open for public viewing

Good point - the photos help a lot. The step-wise instructions for different jobs , and overall layout are very good.

Just remembered I said I'd give a kiss (conditional on a Haynes manual) - Bloody hell - thay have manuals for men and women etc ! I really should shut my mouth sometimes.. I'll have to plead typo or something.

Will make a mental not to see the museum sometime.

I hate to tell you this, but....haynes! This is for real!

I was dreading this ! I came back later , and the edit button had gone from my post OOOOOMMMMMMGGGGG !

I meant to say 'I will Kris you ' as a metaphor for holding you in high regard . Honest . I did i did i did !

C'mon - who would have guessed Haynes would have gone there ? Mercy !

Yeah yeah. The irony. And the topic of this thread is? Hehehehehe.

In a shop manual for a 1968 Datsun SPL311 sport scar it referred throughout the manual to the various "Brock Diagrams". Sounded like maybe an native English-speaking secretary taking dictation from native Japanese, speaking English.

Yes , that type of thing is pretty frequent . I think your analysis of why it happens is probably correct - I've had some secretaries who are mind blazingly thick (they must be the price paid for good ones ). There may be some justification for a secretary to write exactly as heard (think of the blame-situation if this did not happen) . Most secretaries are very skilled (despite the few bad ones who stick in your head - a good one smooths things so good they wont always get due credit). On the other hand , somebody dictating may well have a dangerously inflated opinion of themselves ('I know what I mean , therefor every body else must' -I've seen those as well ). Dictating to a secretary is less common now but those type of typos still occur a lot , which seems odd.

I'm not taking huge care with my own writing here , with deliberate intent. when I do so at a later date it will help me see my own short-comings (that's my excuse , and I'm sticking to it )

Spell checkers produce some fairly amusing results too: in a reply to a recent thread on an over unity engine one guest wrote:-

"What's the deal with the armatures that don't understand the basic laws of physics - eh?"

Now, if we had an armature which didn't follow the laws of physics, we might well get an over unity machine.

We had a secretary who sent a block 'e' mail to all our customers; who typed 'Pentium processor', the spell check changed it to 'penis processor', she didn't check the spell check! Mind you, we had a lot of enquiries that week.

Along the same lines but not in print, I had a boss once that got tongue tied and told some people he was showing around that the computer we were building had "three floppy dicks". He didn't even realize what he had said and we nearly split a gut trying not to laugh.

LMAO. Did you recover?

Yeah but I think our sides were sore.

I had a few of those in Hebrew. I'm afraid it would never survive translation.

If we are talking about a Spoonerism (my mother's maiden name was Spooner)......When I got married, we had a rehearsal, at the rehearsal I actually said 'awfully dreaded wife' rather than lawfully wedded'. I only new because Rev, Don nearly collapsed as did the rest of the folk who were there!

That one was sweet!

Good point, only part of the blame, and your quoted example is classic, is on our usual complacent spell-check over the spell-checker's suggestion.

I often do it, and I, not being native to English, should be extra cautious.

Kris, regarding AI, above, you expressed my point exactly, saying something to the effect of AI is pretty much a non-entity, or at least an exaggerated term to describe the technology's ability. Correct me if I misread you.

Regarding AI's inability to translate complete documents, my point was, that translation, in general, is not a lexical job, as it is contextual, requiring knowledge-base of both cultures. In this aspect, AI's failure is evident.

Lexical, single-word translation, we have in the form of electronic dictionaries, which illustrate the problem: press for a word, and you are offered a collection of possible terms for you to select from, at your discretion.

Which to choose, in any given context, is actually a part of the translation effort.

Another, the "right" phrasing to convey an idea, is not merely grammatical. It calls for a careful choice of words, in specific type of construction manner.

One of the classical examples of lexical machine translation is the attempt to translate "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" with the machine giving the equivalent "The vodka is good but the meat is bad".

And, of course, that enormous AI computer that was asked by a bevy of generals about the best way to beat the enemy. Its answer was "Yes". The surprised generals asked "Yes, what?". The computer, being military, answered "Yes, sir!".

Supposedly, a computer translated "Be still, my soul, for thy Comforter cometh!" as: "Shut up, Sweetheart, you'll get your quilt."

' Lazarus ,come forth ' could be an interesting input problem

In South Africa we call a bore well a borehole. (we join words together - the rule is one concept one word). In an letter I had the auto correction feature enabled. All the occurrences of borehole was changed to brothel.

The pumping, watering, reciprocating pump, static head etc together with brothel was not funny.

Why not? Very funny. Isn't this what is done in a brothel?

pumping...watering...reciprocating pump...static head...

I like all this word play - it kind of illustrates the point as well.

Poking fun is fine with a with a partner who enjoys.

You git my meaning on AI Yuval.

Have you noticed that europiums picture looks like a bad marksman - shoots but can't hit.

The bird? - Call me crazy, but for me it looks like "the" finger, only suggested in the vague form of the feathered creature.

I hope he doesn't kill me for this.

me too - hoots but ....... (thank you Spooner )

For your eyes only (confidential). Like this, every shmuck to their blog, who needs reality?

"Enough with this reality crap..." - Joe Oxy Moron

Back in the good ol' days I was a Video tech at a local repair shop. We were the factory service center for a number of larger manufacturers, and were on subscription to receive service manual and service memo updates.

One day we got the "Inter-office Service Memo" from JVC on workstation computer maintenance. It was a wonderful Jap-American translated piece that was obviously done by a tech with limited English skills. There was an entire paragraph on mouse maintenance, including "cleaning your mouse balls".

Detailed information on "inspecting", "dropping" and "gently shaking" them in mild soapy water.

We were dying!

Someone at that company had a great sense of humor to let that get out (this was of course in the days before they risked being sued for offending a recipient somewhere).

I've seen other spoofs of this on the net in the past, but none like the original stuff. I'll dig through some of my old files and see if I can find the release (I know I saved a copy). If anyone has seen this on the net (the actual JVC memo) let me know where to get a copy in case I can't find mine. Now that I'm reminded of it, the nostalgia kicks in and I gotta have a copy.

Me too ! I heard this and thought it must be an urban-myth type thing. An original reference would be fun.

I recall something from about 30 years ago . . . I worked for a german engineer here in the US who translated a description of an electronic circuit operation. Bassically, the translation was, in reference to a transistor circuit, was, " . . . it works very prettily." I also remember that a Japanese description of circuit operation from the same era was similarly funny, but I don't recall exactly what it was.

Which is a better avatar?

It depends on what you think of yourself!

That is a really patient pair of animals you have got there. It is a hard choise but I think I would go for the Mule /ass. Maybe it is just the scenery that appeals to me.

Several years ago I was working for a large Japanese-owned company as a Production Engineer. I was in charge of setting up a new camshaft machining line that had just arrived from the parent company in Japan. Our maintenance department was getting ready to set a Toyoda grinder in place, but couldn't find the leveling bolts. I started digging through crates, and I found these neat little bundles of bubble-wrap with black duct tape. Each one had the contents written on it in yellow marker, on the tape. "PAD", "LOCATOR", "COLLET", etc. Then I pull one out that said "F**CK" on it. I was thinking "F**CK??? What the f**ck?!" I opened it up, and it was the leveling bolts. I'd been told that there is no translative word for F**CK in Japanese, so I didn't know what to think. I got home and showed the piece of tape to my wife (and I still have it), and she figured it out. A bolt is a screw, a screw is a f**ck, so a f**ck is a bolt!!

Later I remembered that right after I started working there, one of my first projects was to catalog and file assembly drawings and BOM's for fixtures. My Japanese manager was doing all the translation for me. I was going through the first one, and I was shocked to see "F**CK" next to one line on the BOM. I went to his desk, and just pointed at it, because I really didn't know what to say. He chuckled and turned three shades of red, scribbled it out, and wrote "BOLT" next to it. At the time I was too shocked to notice.

A couple of years ago we bought a Japanese version of our standard CAD package so that we could send drawings,parts lists etc to our new agent in Japan. The translation of "Idler" (gear) came out as "Lazy Boy" so goodness knows what else they got wrong!

Microsoft Outlook Express spell check also suggested the name "Triscan" (card reader system) should be "Trash Can" which wasn't far off the mark!

If you think the errors are all accidental I suggest you try the following - someone at Google has a sense of humour!

Go to Google maps, click get directions, (its at the top centre of page), enter New York and London. Click Get directions, then read item 24.

That is rather fun... but why would an American want to swim to France and then pay on the toll roads and ferry / tunnel to get to England.

It would be much more straightforward - and a little shorter - to swim to Lands End in Cornwall, which is already in England - though some would argue with that assertion - and then drive up the A30 and the M5 and the M4 to London.

How long would it take to swim 3479 miles?

Recently I've been discussing translation errors . . . We've probably all had the ' what the **** does that mean ? ' moment even when looking at our mother-tongue.

Has anybody got examples (humorous/serious) of this . . .

www.engrish.com has MANY examples. I photographed a soft-drink dispenser in Taipei that offered English-labeled cans with various flavors, all under the "Sweatt" brand.

LMAO . That's fun .Bugger Graham Nortons pathetic examples

Ron - "Engrish.com" - You beat me to it! :p

My personal favorite was printed in large letters on a box that came to my office containing delicate electronic parts. It said:

TAKE YOUR BODY EARTH BEFOR TAKE OUT

...well, yes, one should always ground oneself before handling delicate electronics! :)

I've seen some classic ones like this. My most recent favorite was directions included with an RF mouse- it said "once batteries read, light is on and mouse will start to grinning ."

I have no idea what that was supposed to mean, but I can testify to the fact that the mouse in question has never grinned. It is actually a surly little thing, only working when the fancy strikes it.

(I believe the brand was Logitech, but I could be wrong.)

One problem, of course, is that linguists and translators are not necessarily technical translators. Fluency in spoken language does not equate to fluency in written language; technical or otherwise.

On a lighter note, several humorous examples were given in other posts and I wanted to provide a link to others. Most engineers in the U.S. are fans of (or are at least familiar with) a comic strip called Dilbert. It's drawn by a former employee of Pacific Bell and deals with the trials and tribulations of cubicle dwellers, clueless management, and other Iduhviduals. Many are drawn from experience and reader feedback. (You may even be convinced that Dilbert works for your company). Anyway, one of the characters is his "dog" Dogbert. Dogbert's New Ruling Class (DNRC), consisting of brilliant non-induhviduals will ultimately conquer the world.

Although of U.S. origin, the humor applies everwhere.

Log onto http://www.unitedmedia.com/comics/dilbert and see what you think. Read the latest DNRC newsletter and, if you like it, you may want to subscribe. It's free.

Dilbert's cool.

You used 'cubicle dwellers'. ' Prairie-dogging' must be an American phrase ? (When something happens in the office , and everyone pops their head above their cubicle)

Not exactly what you ask for, but it is a 'manual` glitch:

Setting the valves on a Honda CB 450, (looooonger ago than I care to count):

" To set the valve clearance loosen the locknut and turn the eccentric with
a screwdriver till the clearance is correct. There are two positions where this
will be so, only one of which is the proper one."

Driver in hand and trembling with anticipation I turned the page -
only to find the opening of another subject.

I suppose at least they told you there was only 1 correct position .

I use this technique to ransom the last page of whatever book my wife is reading. Come to think of it , that may be why I spend hours looking for tools (not to mention the remote for the TV - she always has an innocent look on her face ).

Did you see the Yaris advert - A woman 'acidentaly' crashes a Guy's new delight (a remote plane ). It cuts to the previous day , where you see him kick the door shut on her beloved car .

I once heard a weather announcer on the radio attempt to say "Scattered showers over the Rockies", but instead said "Shattered scours over the Rockies." (scours are diarrhea in calves.)

I was listening to an NOAA weather broadcast one night and I heard "Partly sunny tonight..." at about 3AM. I had to make sure so I waited for it to repeat and sure enough that's what they said.

Main problem of translations is NOBODY WANTS TO PAY FOR THEM...

I speak and write 4 languages fluently, and two in a sort of Tarzan way (like "Me Tarzan, you Jane"). Many years ago I was asked to translate 2 medical books from English into Spanish (400 pages ea.): there I discovered that something that seems to be so simple if you speak a couple of languages, can turn into a nightmare!

Translations were from English into Spanish (the latter is my mother-tongue). Every time I finished a chapter I did proof read it... to discover it seemed to be written by someone else! Here is where the real job started: I had to translate it again from Spanish into Spanish!!!

As a technical publisher I can tell you, that this is a common technique to test translator's quality of translation. You take to candidate translators, one is to translate A1 to B, than the other to translate B back to A2, then compare A1 to A2.

Reverse translation must show up loads of differences to an original text , but is this always necessary ? I'd hope a technical author of a manual would avoid idiom, metaphor etc and write in a language style more akin to that used by programmers.

As an example , even though most computer programs can be written in different ways , Jackson Structured Programming will always give an identical result ( I'm not a programmer , so can't say this with expert knowledge).

To take a simple example of a manual (that of instructions on how to set a digital watch ) - is there any valid reason why good translation may not occur ? Surely it can reduce to a diagram indicating button number/name and a bulletin list style of function setting procedures.

I speak and write 4 languages fluently, and two ....

Respect to you !

Out of curiosity , do you think in Spanish whilst looking at CR4 or a mix of Spanish/English. I find this interesting , because I have zero ability with other languages ( apart from a minute ammout of French taught at School ).

"I speak and write 4 languages fluently, and two .... Respect to you !"

Kris: I love music, and would be more than happy to change 2 or 3 languages for playing ANY musical instrument (even a drum!)

My grandparents were German, and never learned to speak a decent Spanish, so we were forced to speak their language. Mi parents lived in USA a lot of time and spoke to each other in English when they did not want us to participate in certain business (so it was a necessity to learn English to know what was really going on at home)...

Once you manage a couple of languages, learning more is a sort of intellectual exercise: one day, without noticing it you might be watching a movie in another language guessing what they say and comparing your guesses with the captions. Suddenly you get 20 or 30 words, a time later, perhaps 50. If you insist a bit more you will be speaking some "Basic Tarzan" shortly after!

"Out of curiosity , do you think in Spanish whilst..."

As a matter of fact, no: the weird thing is that sometimes I really don't know in what language I am thinking in! (Am I in troubles?)

This will make you feel better: solving the most simple mathematical problem can turn into a nightmare to me (I HAVE NO CLUE!). My drawings are pathetic... the way I dance is still worst...

God (should he exist) gives and takes!

"...My grandparents were German, and never learned to speak a decent Spanish..."

My mother's parents were Austrian, also German-speaking, but they too, could hardly ever speak decent Hebrew, even after forty years in their new country. And their German-accent broken Hebrew... we, as kids, couldn't laugh harder

Thanks for all that r&ddoc - really interesting. One day I may go for emmersion learning : Get a month clear , and force myself to stay in a medium size French town and get by without using English except for dire emergency. I have heard of others do this succesfully. It may at least kick start the language processing areas of my aging brain.

As for my dancing , I am not going to even attempt a cure. There is none for such a terrible case !

Kris,

I was just blocked from the mail-room immediately after my last DNA mention.

Lost in translation?

You too Brutus?

What I got was:

Someone thought it was you on the "Harvest Moon" thread with George?

what ??

Yuval - I think the three of us (me you and vermin) were sending and deleting mail so fast the system suspected enemy action and locked out ? Can't think why else , but I guess it's no mail for 24 hrs - I have about 5 recieved I can't reply to ! Aaaaagh

Post 164 on

Ditto - I'm stuffed a swell - what did we do !!!!

One day I may go for immersion learning ...

If the learning of a language turns into a matter of survival, you'll get it much sooner than by reading books with clever sentences like "I am John, this is a blackboard..."

I think it was Mark Twain who meticulously translated a piece of English literature into German and back again. The comparison of the original and the end product is hilarious.

Not to mention getting translations of technical material. Americans can barely speak to Brits and vice versa.

"Two countries seperated by a common tongue."

Nothing personal of course and no offense intended - bit I frequently figure out what the wrong side of the ponders are saying by context, even in casual conversation today.

Speaking of which - Do our beloved Haynes manuals still offer an English to American translation page? (Dating myself - but ) I remember after the Metric to Imperial page was a sheet probably for US publication that cross-referenced spanner to wrench, hood to bonnet and more of the like.

I read recently that the 'Dangerous Book for Boys' now has an American edition , with topics adapted for American relevance. I wonder if this will lead to confusions - I'm sure some Americans still think Brits walk around with brollies and Bowler hats ! If America is anything like the Simpson's I want to live there. I would even settle for Walton's-land , or better still Little House on the Prairie. Cool. Americans are so much more optimistic than our dowdy soaps like Eastenders/Coronation St , where life is like eternal misery.

"Two countries separated by a common tongue."

Oddly enough this was also said here about Israel and America, with Israel's tongue stuck deep in... Ah, forget it. Probably lost in translation

Another spell check error.

In draft legislation about aspects of pollution control by natural processes the word organism were replaced by orgasm. I believe the typist is on pregnancy leave at present.

Do a spell checker check for spells?