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Magnetic Shield

10/04/2012 12:35 PM

In one of my classes I am taking to get my engineering degree we were talking about magnets and we got into the repulsion and It made me think about the practical applications of this. I know a magnet will repulse another magnet but I was trying to find a way to repulse a metal projectile such as a bullet. I know eddy currents will cause repulsion to some degree but not enough to stop or slow down a object any significant amount. I was just wandering if any of you have any input on the subject. By the way I am a mechanical engineer so I don't have that much knowledge about these things but it just started to make me really think and found the idea fascinating. Please forgive my bad grammar and lack on knowledge

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#1

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/04/2012 12:48 PM

Here's the problem. The vast majority of bullets are cast from lead. Lead is neither attracted, nor repelled by a magnet.

A typical pistol bullet travels at least 900 feet per second. Rifle bullets can top 4,000 FPS. It would take a huge amount of energy to deflect a projectile at either speed.

Cheers.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/04/2012 1:14 PM

I used a bad example of a bullet but a steal projectile also a bullet is made up of lead but it is surrounded by a metal jacket I know this is usually made off copper so it that doesn't matter but usually there is nickel in the bullet so allot of them do attract. In my opinion the problem is the speed but it doesn't have to stop just deflect. Also the application I was thinking of wasn't a bullet proof vest it would be for military application on something like a plane were it could be designed to have angle to deflect to some degree. Also I was thinking of a high powered electromagnet. I guess my main question is it even possible to repel any metal that wasn't already magnetized. Thanks and I appreciate your input.

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#5
In reply to #2

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/04/2012 2:54 PM

Almost anythings possible.

It (magnetic deflection) can (theoretically) be done but have a look at the electromagnetic math behind the forces and field strengths needed, they are massive even for ideally-shaped solid metal objects. The magnetic field will react with a bullet metal jacket but the layer is thin so the force exerted on it is still very, very small.

Yes it can be done (in theory in certain circumstances), but not practically with actual lead projectiles or shotgun rounds.

For more practical experience try slowly throwing various metal objects past a strong magnetic field and checking deflection (if any).

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#10
In reply to #2

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 3:52 AM

Wouldn't a high-powered electromagnet interfere with an aircraft's guidance systems also?

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#15
In reply to #10

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 12:27 PM

Yeah I thought about that to because of all the power it would take it would mess with todays aircraft but you could probably shield it off some how it would have to be a specially designed plane.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 12:30 PM

You could design a special plane with thick shielding, but the range would be very limited due to the additional weight.

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#17
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Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 12:45 PM

A10.

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#18
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Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 1:37 PM

That's only under the pilot, right?

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 3:17 PM

The under pan is titanium beneath the cockpit.

However, the Warthog is also hardened in other areas to withstand a lot of punishment in many other ways.

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#21
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Re: Magnetic Shield

10/06/2012 3:01 AM

The shielding in the wiring and instrumentation of modern aircraft if highly developed and in a recent test I saw conducted using a laptop computer and mobile phone on an aircraft on the ground, they could find no interference with the instrumentation whatsoever.

They are also paying a lot more attention to the shielding than in the past as aircraft are being constructed from things like carbon fibre and other composites. Originally with an all metal airframe you pretty much had a Faraday cage around everything so it was pretty much immune to external electromagnetic interference even to the level of being hit by lightning. By the way, on average every airliner that is in regular commercial use is hit twice a year by lightning so it a fairly common event and it's extremely rare for the aircraft to be damaged let alone brought down. However, on occasions aircraft are damaged by lightning and I know of one that was brought down when lightning ignited fuel vapours in the half empty tanks so it does happen albeit on very rare occasions.

Shielding against a magnetic field is more difficult as it can pass through nonferrous metals like aluminium fairly readily but it is still possible to protect the instrumentation and cabling form it's effects if you know what you are doing.

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#6
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Re: Magnetic Shield

10/04/2012 3:11 PM

Even a simple bullet, if it were made of some material like iron, would have a great amount of energy at ballistic levels.

A .308 NATO round weighs 165 grains (6.35e-5 kg) and moves at about 792 meters per second.

Newton taught us that Ke = 1/2m * v^2. So it is not the mass of the bullet, but its speed. Nevertheless, the energy of our fictional bullet is 6.35e-5 kg * (792 m/s * 792 m/s), which equals 39,800 Joules or 39.8 kJ.

That is not a trivial amount of energy to stop. Even 12" of solid oak would not do it given the bullet's profile.

Even so, if you had that amount of energy to be focused as a force field it would need to be concentrated at the exact spot where the bullet is. If you can not direct that energy at that specific spot you would need a generic field of some larger size and the amount of energy would required to protect that whole area would go up very rapidly.

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#8
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Re: Magnetic Shield

10/04/2012 5:23 PM

Consider also that automatic weapons can fire up to 1,000 rounds per minute, and the problem becomes even more complex.

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#3

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/04/2012 2:02 PM

You could use eddy currents in a aluminum ring to propel a projectile of any material you want. The ring just has to be a conductor. No doubt a mechanical engineer could design an eddy current launcher like in this video to drive a slug of metal perhaps on an adjacent rail.

launching an aluminum ring

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#4

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/04/2012 2:36 PM

Search CR4 and Google rail guns.

Navy is doing research on electromagnetic propulsion.

As others have said takes a lot of energy.

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#23
In reply to #4

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/06/2012 12:57 PM

It also is hell on the gun, the rails have to be replaced quite often due to erosion. many times only one or two shots can be fired before the erosion is to much to compensate for.

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#7

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/04/2012 5:17 PM

Thanks for the input I know it not something I could just build at home I just found the idea interesting. I know that there are allot of things like this idea that just seam like the only place it will ever be SiFi movie.Allot of things are possible but the energy it takes for them to work would be impractical that why I hope more research will go into wireless energy because it exist just cant travel far. Who knows maybe in ten years we'll look at this as being easily achieved, probably not but one can hope. Feel free to continue discussion but I am satisfied with the post I got. Thanks again

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#9

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 3:46 AM

Since you are interested in magnetic fields you might be interested in the other half of the equation which is the diamagnetism. The diamagnetic force is a repulsive force, but and this is a big but it is extremely weak and extremely difficult to even detect let alone work with, however, it effects everything not just ferromagnetic materials.

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#14
In reply to #9

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 10:45 AM

Sadly, my proposal to repurpose road-kill frogs by launching them at the enemy via huge diamagnetic rail guns was met with less than stellar enthusiasm in Washington.

(Sigh)

Those plans for a jimongous, wasteful, sprawling, polluting military/industrial complex will have to wait another day...

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#11

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 4:19 AM

What if you use your Magnetic field to hold A liquid in place, rather then deflect, it could absorb & dissipate the energy. There are many ways to suspend metallic flakes in liquids and if you used different liquids with different metals it could have layers. It was a thought not for flight but ground troops tanks, and the rounds that have been discussed are super sonic they would fragment in the liquid adding to the shield. The faster the round the better. They did some testing on if a 50cal, it broke up in to smaller peaces then a 45acp. In a shorter distance through the water.

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#12

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 8:39 AM

it would take less energy to deflect a metalic object. i like the way you think.

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 9:22 AM

And even less not to send it. :)

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#19

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/05/2012 2:16 PM

It seems you are trying to save lives by applying magnetic repulsive deflection of the fired bullet.

If you give slight shock waves to the hands or body of the person firng the bullet, he will shamble and miss his target. It is more surer than getting the bullet deflected?.

Physical protective barriers could be the best suited option than deflection, since the time factor from trigger point to hitting target point is fraction of second.

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#22

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/06/2012 3:10 AM

If you could do to a magnetic field what a lasing material does to light, i.e. focuses it into an intense in phase parallel beam then with enough intensity then you may get a sufficient diamagnetic effect to deflect something.

However, to my knowledge there is currently no such device that produces a magnetic beam like a laser does.

However, you can do something similar to a laser with sound, but it has to extremely high frequency sound. I wonder if you could use such a sonic beam to vibrate the projectile so much that it broke up in flight?

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#24

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/13/2012 7:44 PM

When speaking of anything in engineering, efficiency is the goal. So expecting everyone else to only fire specific bullets is not reasonable. Before you've needed to calculate or use any power at all. From an efficiency standpoint, I'd use a torus to generate a properly calibrated cylindrical pulse to send in focused microwaves heavy enough to vaporize metals, but anything of this sort is still only beginning to be realized. The magnitude of power makes all shielding so far physical, as primary requirement. When we begin seriously manipulating light for invisibility on a large scale, magnets for both hiding and detecting will be critical.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Magnetic Shield

10/14/2012 12:30 AM

Welcome to CR4 N. I hope you enjoy and get a lot out of the discussions.

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