Should 304 Stainless Steel Stain/Rust?

Well do that, then, instead of frolicking on CR4, especially if the evidence is needed in court.

According to this:

http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance

the resistance of 304 to seawater is "C-fair", so one might expect some attack as stated. One would ordinarily use plastics or GRP in contact with seawater, although naval brass is sometimes used for process equipment.

What material is the other furniture made of?

Unless they used a carbon steel tools to cut or polish and welded using non SS rods...

Nothing you get here will be admissible in any court, anywhere in the world.

There could be any number of reasons the corrosion resistant steel you have is rusting.

Notice, I used the proper term for this metal. It is not stainLESS steel. It is steel that RESISTS corrosion.

Do not clean the grill with any metals that contain iron. That includes steel wool and regular wire brushes.

Get some Scotch-Brite and use it. (Not an endorsement)

Chalk it up to experience.

Note to self: proof read before posting. That "302" should read "304"..... I'm blaming the arthritis!

It will start rusting on spots not exposed to oxygen, so the passivation layer will be disrupted.

We use 303/304 ss in pumps. It is probably the lowest grade that can still be called Stainless Steel. It is considerably cheaper than 316ss, which is why we use it. It is often used in food/beverage equipment where requirements are sanitary, not corrosion resistance. But in applications where there is a risk of corrosion, especially chloride attack, we use 316ss or better. There are also those who question the composition of Chinese stainless steels.

If you do not get satisfaction in court, you can try either of the following:

Passivation - look for an electro-plater with large enough tanks for your equipment. This is essentially dipping it in acid, so you will need to disassemble any pieces incompatible with the acid.

Powder coat - there are very durable clear powder coatings that will last a long time in ocean air. Once again, you will have to disassemble pieces that do not get coated.

Good luck,

Mike W.

You still need to get an experts opinion no matter what is said here. Stainless steel comes in many grades. So to say it's the highest grade depends on the use of the stainless steel. You may want to have your expert have a sample of the steel tested to make sure it meets the 304 standard for content.

I find the best court in things like this is the court of public opinion. No retailer likes bad publicity. I can hurt their sales. You may want try that avenue with the retailer.

First thing is, you'll have to talk to a licensed metallurgist for an expert opinion.

is the base metal staining, or is it staining on the weld joints?

Also a quick check, put a magnet to it the problem items and the items that are not a problem, if it attracts, it could be a lower grade of stainless.

Then document it.

Rule of thumb, if you can stick a magnet to it anyplace, don't buy it...

https://bbq.about.com/od/gasgrills/a/aa052706a.htm

Best advice, go with a Weber...

You have a couple of legal hurdles here that need to be clarified for success in court.

• Is this metal actually 304 Stainless Steel?
• Does your documentation state that this "setting" is 304 Stainless Steel or is this what a salesman said?
• Is the discoloration from rust or a coating (algae?) on the metal?
• Who determined that 304 Stainless Steel was suitable for your location?

All of these questions must be answered by an impartial authority (CR4 is not an authority) willing to sign their name and reputation to your lawsuit. With the exception of the documentation you already have, expect to pay someone for their services.

I was working in China for a number of years in the food equipment business. We had some 304 panels developing rust spots and it was tracked down to the mill rolling the sheets with equipment also used for carbon steels. Lyn alluded to the problem: don't use regular steel on stainless steel. The carbon steel imbeds in the stainless causing corrosion sites. Have no clue how you would track that down but trust me anything is possible in China.

agree it should be 316 for outdoors.

for a court matter the smart thing is to pay for a spectroscopic analysis of the material

foundries and labs charge around $ 80 - 120 for a spectro test , and ask them for a printout and a letter stating what it showed

if their report says it has lower levels of chromium or nickel than what 316 or 304 are supposed to have , then you win in court , the dealer who sold them is liable for the product if they sold it as stainless steel " xxx grade "

Where are you in Aus? If you contact your nearest university with an engineering department (eg USyd, UTS, Newcastle etc) you will probably be able to get an expert opinion - academics do a lot of that sort of thing. You'll have to pay - but if it's just a letter saying "this is not 304 SS" or "SS304 should not have been suggested for this location" it may not cost you too much - whether it's worth it depends on what you mean by a "very expensive outdoor setting". Good luck...

Well said!

best response so far.

I am a one-time Marine Engineer, with about 30-40 years of experience as expert witness on, inter alia, corrosion. I would not be able to give evidence that 304 should not rust at all in a marine environment, Apologies.

I agree with P911.

Are we not speaking of a set of patio furniture? OP tells us expensive, but this can be a very relative term. How far in court would any of you pursue someone just to teach him some sort of a lesson?

I assume that the OP's first options were try to get a replacement, request that was surely dismissed, this brought things to the next level, but the OP didn't quit, so things got really nasty.

Now I think she has not many options but stand still, search for a competent lawyer and seek to get paid not only for the furniture, but all of the trouble and expenses she's being thru; otherwise her sense of loss will be much greater and devastating for her self-steem.

Certainly, not a situation I would envy. I sincerely wish her the best luck.

search for a competent lawyer and seek to get paid not only for the furniture, but all of the trouble and expenses she's being thru;

Getting $hellacked by the attorney is not always a good choice.

otherwise her sense of loss will be much greater and devastating for her self-steem.

imo, sometimes your worse experience is sometimes your best, though it may not seem that way at the time. in this case, its a learning experience. And you keep your money you have left.

There is not a good solution here.

Agreed, which is why I listed my collection of legal questions that need to be proven for a court action to have a chance to be in her favor. Everything will hinge on her documentation about what she was sold, what she actually obtained and how resistant to rusting the grade of steel she was offered should be. From the responses so far, 304 stainless steel is more resistant to sea water than many steel alloys but not as resistant as most grades of stainless steel.

This is an ancient legal problem with its own Latin phrase, Caveat Emptor. She was told that this merchandise was fabricated with a specific alloy of steel (something rarely done to a consumer). Unless she can prove that she was told this was suitable material for a sea water environment by the seller she assumes all liability for this application.

....alternately she might try to prove that the material used does not meet the standards necessary to rightly be called 304 SS.

The whole case really depends on what the seller/manufacture claimed or guaranteed for their product and services and if the buyer used the furniture as designed by the seller/manufacture.

Also, local consumer laws may apply. The problem began less than 3 months after the product was placed into service. There may be a lemon law or equivalent that applies.

I do not know the case, but it seems odd to attempt to hinge the case on the type of material the furniture is made out of. Either it functions as advertised/claimed by the seller/manufacture or it does not.

In that instance it would seem to be a case where the buyer needs to demonstrate that the furniture has been used in the way it was designed and not abused and has failed within its warranty period.

In the US the burden of proof for that is simply a preponderance of evidence.

'...seems odd to attempt to hinge the case on the type of material...'

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It isn't the least bit odd.

That the buyer agreed to buy a product made of 304, can be inferred from the OP. If the product delivered is not made of 304, then the seller did not deliver what the buyer purchased. If that can be established, the case is clear cut, and a judgement for remediation would be expected from a reasonable court.

Even if it was 304, 304 does not have very much corrosive resilience. In fact, it is one of the poorer stainless steels.

However, if the product was mislabeled, that would be grounds for a case. Odds are better than 50% that any other stainless steel would not corrode so easily. :)

It still boils down to what the claim of the manufacture/seller is for this product.

'....It still boils down to what the claim of the manufacture/seller is for this product.....'

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You are tilting against windmills my friend. Look, you are protesting a comment that is actually fully aligned with the concluding statement of your argument.

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The only information we have concerning claims by the seller/manufacturer is the statement in the OP that the seller told the buyer that the material was 304 and that 304 was the best stainless.

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My comment was in reference to the comment by Redfred that included:

'....Unless she can prove that she was told this was suitable material for a sea water environment by the seller she assumes all liability for this application.....'

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...which goes to the 'best stainless' part of the implied claim.

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My comment was simply notes that the other seller's claim (the product is 304) is a much more definitive claim (than '304 is the best' or alternately 'suitable for her application').

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I noted early in the discussion (in comment #3 or #4?) 304's low resistance to corrosion in salt spray environments. But it doesn't really matter if it turns out the material isn't within spec for 304. If it isn't 304, it becomes a much more clear case.

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You really have taken this one comment out of context... read the discussion up to that point.

Got it. Thanks.

Yes it will rust, especially if contaminated. We build tanks and filter housings of 304 and 316 ss where I work and a standard test is the salt spray corrosion test. The ss products should hold up for 48 hours under a mild salt spray at elevated temperatures, but beyond that...

And we also may never use a standard carbon steel tool on the ss we are using as the iron left on the surface will rust. Nitric acid at 40% for 1/2 hour will remove that. Be very careful of this as it is rated at least 3 on an HMIS Health scale.

Also, ss from questionable sources can have contaminants in it. We also have an electropolishing operation where I work and about 5 years ago began to get large amounts of copper in our acids and extreme pitting of the ss tubing we were electropolishing. (copper levels above and way beyond expected from our copper cahtodes) Turned out the tubing was made in Korea and had excessive amounts of copper in it and that was being drawn out by the process. We thought they had a pretty good product until then.

Could it be your 304 has a lot of "free iron" on the surface from handling or is just a poor quality steel?

"Nitric acid at 40% for 1/2 hour will remove that. Be very careful of this as it is rated at least 3 on an HMIS Health scale."

"Be very careful" -- don't be "careful" -- don't do it at all without knowing all necessary to work with the hazardous substances and without the paper that proofs you can do so.

Type 304 should be non magnetic. If yours is magnetic it is not 304.

Chlorine (salt water) in any form attacks the lower grades of stainless of which 304 is. The Chromium in 304 combines with the oxygen in the air creating a corrosion resistant barrier much like paint protects steel. Chlorine reacts with the chrome oxide destroying this barrier exposing the steel which will rust similiar to scratching the paint on painted steel. This process is irreversible. As another post said re-passivisation can be done but this is by soaking in nitric acid at warm temperatures. This will probably cost more that the cost of the furniture The best friend of stainless is washing with soap and water and rinsing well.

Take the material to a certified outside lab and pay for a XRF PMI.

There's no such material as "Stainless" Steel...316 is probably the best...I had Type 304 boat fittings and I would periodically polish them and put on a coat of wax...Stainless Steel develops an oxide coating on the surface which gives turns into a corrosion resistant surface...if there are any impurities in the material you will see signs or rust. I used Type 316 for bio-medical and food service products and we would have the surfaces electropolished for a longer lasting finish.

I didn't have time to read all the posts, so this may have been covered. Is there any "normal" steel component above the SS that could be dripping on it and thus staining it? The run-off from other parts could easily carry and deposit stain particles.

At the risk of beating this dead horse further into the ground, did you contact the person who claimed this was "the highest grade stainless"?

Sounds like false advertising, to me.

In my experience, anything coming out of China is suspect as far as quality and content are concerned. Just remember the Melamine in dog food.

Unfortunately the consumer demand for cheaper cost products has forced most manufacturing to China. It is difficult to find what you want, that is not made in China.

As others have mentioned previously, s.s. 304 from China is not of the best quality due to their somewhat inferior nominal chenical composition quality control and manufacturing standards.

The highest grade of stainless steel is (Duplex) and used mainly in specialised fields in desalination. 304 is not marine grade and does rust as it has magnetic properties that attracts some dissolved solids in water. (316 is marine grade and has greater resistance to salt ingression)

If he told you it was the highest grade of stainless steel, then, that is a lie in itself.

It is common that all mass produced items for the consumer market are made of "cheap as chips" components or materials.

It would not be worth the cost of you getting the material tested or verified as 304 or lesser grade.

If you asked for the highest grade or marine grade stainless steel and he supplied you 304, he has lied and misrepresented the product.

Hope this helps.

Just as a note, 304 is typically only exhibits ferromagnetism if it hasn't been effectively stress relieved following cold working. The magnetism is due to the stress induced formation of martensite which results not only in ferromagnetic behavior, but also a marked decrease in corrosion resistance.

Just to add to the personal experience problem . the new stainless lookalike products that we have purchased recently, manafactured in China have been very secondary in performance compared to stainless products purchased 10 years ago ,also carbon steels we have recently purchased eg small motors manafactured in China also we have found wanting. Hence our nick names-carbon stainless and plastic steel, quite often the most tensile strength is found in the chrome surrounding the product and the material underneath quite often proves un weldable.