"Remember, Remember the Fifth of November..."

What - 407-years'-worth?

And were it to happen today, what would the difference be?

We'd lose a modern, Victorian* building and clock tower, and the Fabric Subcommittee would no longer need to worry whether to move everybody out and do a complete refit or whether to have a phased, shuffling-people-around refit. We could have a shiny new building with all mod-cons as standard. And sufficient offices of all the MPs to have one.

The 1605 building burnt down in 1834...

*_{^{In the UK, Victorian is considered to be quite up-to-date, compared to the twelfth century stuff we still use....}}

And there would be people claiming they'd been abused as a child by Guy Fawkes
Del
(any chance of some compensation... he once stroked me in a creepy way...
Kris made me ask on his behalf because he's too traumatised to come forward)

Well, Happy Guy Fawkes Day!

I think it's weird that, here in the US, the image of Guy Fawkes has been co-opted and now represents something the media wants us to sympathize with.

Sort-of blows everyone away, doesn't it?

GA!

So, raise a glass...!

Hero or villain, depends on your point of view, we all celebrate anyway.

It's been covered on a few TV shows....

Time and cost to rebuild ? Probably about 5 times any estimate given, but would anybody want to rebuild a rebuilt, rebuilt, old building >

Guy Fawkes was the most sensible man to enter Parliament.

I think the closest thing in our modern day we have to Guy Fawkes is the group Anonymous. Unlike Fawkes, the group tries to attack establishments that they disapprove of through digital warfare.

Unfortunately, I think the group has gone from vigilante of justice to bully as of late, though that's just my humble opinion

Have you tried the English-born Irish Guido Fawkes?

Well it just goes to show that when you want to blow stuff up to make a point it really pays to have people who know what they are working with and how to properly prepair!

Nothing like living with the shame of being the 'Missed it by that much revolution guys' for all of eternity.

Unless an off-duty Glaswegian bag handler was passing.

No, they would have flown planes into New York's financial centre and blamed it on some bloke holed up in a cave in Afghanistan, as a pretext for invading that country so that they could build a pipeline between the Caspian Basin and its six trillion cubic feet of natural gas, and the Persian Gulf - something they'd been wanting to do for years and now could, with the patriotic backing of the American people. Construction on the pipeline began within two weeks of the first 'surgical strike' on that country.

This sort of thing is nothing new, a government's acts of terrorism on its own country and then blaming someone else, then going after that Someone Else - the whole point of it all. History is replete with such acts. Rome, for example, set fire to the city and blamed it on the Christians living there, in order to drum up support for mass persecution.

The German government did the same thing, burned the Reichstag and blamed it on the communists, an act which led to the establishment of the Nazi party. From the Wiki: "With civil liberties suspended, the government instituted mass arrests of Communists, including all of the Communist parliamentary delegates. With them gone and their seats empty, the Nazis went from being a plurality party to the majority; subsequent elections confirmed this position and thus allowed Hitler to consolidate his power." The parallels between that and the destruction of the WTC in NYC are unmistakable. The Patriot Act was issued and signed and in such short order that there is no doubt it was prepared beforehand in anticipation of events. Witness the mass loss of civil liberties subsequently, a process which is accelerating today.

The destruction of the WTC and related events are not the work of muslim terrorists. They are the work of the U.S. Government. It was an inside job.

I wonder what the history books will say in 400 years??

What should they be saying now?

Surely that is irrelevant????????

You're right. Today is the 6th of November and, in some places, the 7th.

Given the reasoning behind the attempt. There most likely be more damage then those buildings in the turmoil that followed. Length of time may well depend on whom was in power and numbers left to rebuild.

Also taking into account the reason for the attempt. What's to say it still isn't happening today. I can think of a few buildings that the attempt was successful. The difference is what you called treason, we call terrorism.

Bonfire Day a celebration of church or state?

Just another Second Amendment solution!

It's interesting how the media have been busy sanitising the name of the event and never giving any historical information.

On the BBC news of the early morning of 5th Nov this year, the news items all had the banner 'Guy Fawkes Night' while, by about 8am the banner had become 'Bonfire Night' and no reference to Fawkes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewes_Bonfire

And you no longer see kids out with "a Penny for the Guy"...

No, just the local chippies dumping off old doors, etc, in the middle of the grassy areas.

Some local authorities call it "fly-tipping". And then prosecute.

Others turn a blind eye at this (or should I say that?) time of year - the problem disappears overnight in a puff of smoke!

I wonder how the USA would look now if the Conspirators had succeeded in their goal?

Would they be speaking French and basing their legal system on that of the Republique?

I guess we'll never know will we.

I wonder what language England would be speaking had USA stayed out of WWI all together.

S'ils avaient réussi, les chances sont les livres d'histoire des USA devrait contenir des références à des 14 colonies d'origine - l'un d'eux étant le Royaume-Uni.

People left England to the New World to get away from England, I don't think anyone would be too eager to go back to occupy it. Not when the New World offered so much new country to explore. New adventures to experience.

"...if the Conspirators had succeeded in their goal?"

The conspirators would have to have a popular following to support their cause.

Today there would be all kinds of media coverage and everyone around the world would know about it that day.

It would be declared an act of terror.

It would have required a group of people to carry it out and something other than gunpowder used, because explosives are closely monitored and tagged so after detonation they can find in the residuals ID numbers where it was obtained and start the investigation there.

They would build a new night club in the old location. Start renovations and modernize the area.

They would build a new night club in the old location. Start renovations and modernize the area.
Unlikely. The buildings are in serious need of modernisation, but the committee looking into it have categorically voted not to move to new purpose built buildings, but instead are looking at how they might go about refurbishing the current buildings.

I was only kidding about the nightclub.

some would say that's what it has been used for for years!!

You typed "nightclub", I read "repurposed"... the point is, there is an opportunity now to relocate Parliament into new buildings and they have decided against doing that.

Actually, I quite like the idea of everyone getting to drink etc in the House!

!4 Colonies. Only if they had full control of the sea at the time and that would have been questionable.

How did the Great War get into this?

We'd still be speaking English. Such is the benefit of living on an island with a decent stretch of water between you and your neighbours.

Apparently, the first American troop engagement was 28 May 1918 and this was supported by French artillery, mortars, aircraft and flame throwers. Armistice Day is 11th November so that's about five months to rescue Europe.

Casualties of World War 1

My comment about the events of 1605 were meant to illustrate how an event, now insignificant to many, might have changed the face of the Western World forever.

My point being. Germany surrendered because the US showed up. They knew they didn't have the resources to stand up to all the fresh US troops coming off the boat.

In Germany's own assessment, they felt France was going to be surrendering soon and they had enough to keep up with England to cause England to surrender as well.

I also want to add that the rise of the Nazi power in Germany would never had taken place had it not been for US support. USA had a fascist movement going before Italy, Spain or Germany. We had over 300 companies help give rise to the Nazi power in Germany before and during WWII. USA had anti-Semitic and anti-Communist propaganda transmitted over the airwaves before Hitler was ever even heard of. We were terrorizing minorities in our own country before Germany ever even started persecuting the Jews in their country.

The Great War came into it from the "What IF" question.

The thread seems to have veered off into politics and history in places. "History is written by the victors." - Anon.

OK, so one might have used RDX or something with a bit more kick to it these days to effect the demolition.

How big would the crater be? Would the River Thames flood into the District Line, then down the Victoria Line and knock out the London Underground system? Would the blast topple other buildings? What might the economic effects be?

Technicalities, please!

todays gun powder is slow burning. i doubt if it would explode. black power is available, but hard to buy. it's regulated by the ATF.