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Guru
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Why Aren't We Using LNG for Jet And Propeller Aircraft?

11/21/2012 9:20 PM

Natural gas is cleaner and cheaper than any other available fuel. It is used on the very best 61% efficiency turbines made by G.E. They also make jet engines. The Russians have jets and propeller aircraft that use LNG. I have hot done an extensive study of this, and am not qualified to make technical arguments one way or the other. I would appreciate your thoughts. This is the information I have found so far.

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/9625#comment86535

http://cr4.globalspec.com/comment/217592

2794.http://www.ecomagination.com/ge-flexefficiency-60-natural-gas-turbine-means-cleaner-air-and-more-renewables 61% efficiency.

3004.hthttp://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.aspx?plckBlogId=Blog:a68cb417-3364-4fbf-a9dd-4feda680ec9c&plckPostId=Blog%3Aa68cb417-3364-4fbf-a9dd-4feda680ec9cPost%3A00f49124-7f6b-4fec-9bdb-fae7095ba3b1tp://www.tupolev.ru/english/Show.asp?SectionID=82 Russian LNG aircraft.
3005.http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/natural-gas/1250

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/03/boeing-freezes-design-with-liquid-natural-gas-powerd-airliner/ Boeing plan.

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#89
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Re: Why Aren't We Using LNG for Jet And Propeller Aircraft?

12/01/2012 12:16 PM

Nice job. Obviously, any fuel, and many other chemicals that contain significant quantity of hydrogen in the molecule (NH3, etc.), can be combustible, and once combustion starts and the liquid is within a container, yes a BLEVE can occur unless immediate forced cooling takes place, and the flame can be extinguished.

I for one, would not relish the thought of climbing aboard a jetliner fueled by LNG, LPG, CNG, or ANG, simply because one little failure could easily lead to a catastrophic result.

I would ride on a modern version of the Hindenberg IF, they got rid of the outer sheathing made from nitro-cellulose (ping pong ball material), and replaced this with a less combustible material, and if a cryo-liquifaction system were onboard to store extra hydrogen as liquid to assist with bouyancy control.

I don't particularly care about going 500 mph, so 100 mph would do just fine, especially if the entertainment was good.

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#92

Re: Why Aren't We Using LNG for Jet And Propeller Aircraft?

12/01/2012 1:17 PM

I've been following this thread for quite awhile and there's one thing that has repeatedly bothered me in the comments here. The idea that using a gaseous fuel instead of a liquid fuel will be more hazardous just bothers me. There are hazards using either fuel. There are methods to mitigate any of these hazards. People and cargo at an altitude of 10km will always have hazards to both those in the air and those beneath them. As engineers we identify these hazards and choose systems and protocols to mitigate these hazards.

What bothers me is the apparent attitude here that identified hazards cannot be mitigated. Now we at CR4 may not be able to quickly come up with a scheme to mitigate a hazard in a cost effective manor. This does not mean it cannot be done. Nor does it mean that one day the cost-benefit balance of using a gaseous fuel may warrant using this fuel.

I recognize that using longer chain hydrocarbons for aeronautic fuel has become the de facto standard and many of the risks and complications have already been mitigated or solved already by decades of use.

What I was hoping to hear in this discussion is the idea that possibly the short hydrocarbons of methane and ethane found in NG would reduce the required pressurization needed for complete combustion. Thus the engine design might be simpler.

Instead I keep hearing the mantra of a Luddite.

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#93
In reply to #92

Re: Why Aren't We Using LNG for Jet And Propeller Aircraft?

12/01/2012 1:51 PM

It makes sense to use LNG in the overland hauling refrigerated fleet, since the compressor load can be replaced by the cold off gas from the fuel tanks. Methane = less carbon emissions (as if that really matters). It would work just as well on freight trains, I suppose, but there might be issues with getting the cooling to work to the last reefer car.

Go ahead and fly on that if it makes you happy, I will not be flying anywhere anyway, so it really does not affect me. OR if I do decide to fly somewhere, I am sure there will be a choice to fly on an airline that does not use LNG. OR there is always private chartered flight (if one can afford).

"Mitigating" a hazard sounds like the spill already happened. Why not use "avoid", since mitigation refers to a corrective action after an event, and avoid is less letters anyway, and simply means to avert. OR use the word "avert".

Hazards are all relative to a standard of "acceptable risk". If you feel the risks are "acceptable", then by all means be the first to step aboard.

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#94
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Re: Why Aren't We Using LNG for Jet And Propeller Aircraft?

12/01/2012 2:24 PM

James,

You said "mitigation refers to a corrective action after an event"

A dictionary disagrees.

Ace

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#95
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Re: Why Aren't We Using LNG for Jet And Propeller Aircraft?

12/01/2012 2:30 PM

What we have here is a failure to communicate.

Mitigate:

1: to cause to become less harsh or hostile : mollify <aggressiveness may be mitigated or … channeled - Ashley Montagu> 2 a: to make less severe or painful : alleviate b: extenuate

Mitigation is proactive and focused. Avoidance can be just lucky. Mitigation of a risk is actively reducing the risk. Mitigating an accident is actively correcting the result of the accident instead of just avoiding the accident. If you do not understand the meaning of a word, look it up!

I despise acts of knavery.

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#102

Re: Why Aren't We Using LNG for Jet And Propeller Aircraft?

04/07/2013 9:30 PM

Helicopter jet turbine engines being used as fracking engines. I think there was an earlier comment regarding this. Here is the link:http://www.tradearabia.com/news/REAL_233567.html

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