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Railgun Calculation Problems

12/31/2012 10:18 PM

Hey guys! First post on the forum! I'm having a little trouble doing the calculations for my railgun I'm building. I think I can do all the algebra, but still I get weird answers. Here's my process:

The Lorenz force law for railguns gives the force on the armature as approximated by:
F = (μ∗(V/R)^2)/2π*ln(d/r)
where μ = 1.2366 * 10-6 N/A2, V is 300 volts, R is .012 Ω, d = .1 m (distance between the rails), and r = .01 m (radius of the rails).

I wanted to get the exit velocity of my object, so I paired this equation with Newton's second law, then solved for velocity:

Ma = (μ∗(V/R)^2)/2π*ln(dr)
m/s = (μ∗(V/R)^2)/2π*ln(dr)*(s/M)

M = .5 kg
s = R * C, C = .003 Farads (the average for one of the flash caps I am intending on using from a disposable camera)
s = .00003 s
This was my first tip that something could be wrong because it seemed unrealistic that the device could deploy in such a short time.
I continued with my calculations by subbing everything in, and got .02 m/s as my exit velocity. Now, I know I'm only using one cap here, and most builds that use flash capacitors use 10-20, but I should see an output higher than .02 m/s. Doubling the C only doubles the output, so this is saying I would need about 1000 of the caps to get any real results. Which is simply not true because I know people who have done this entire thing before.

Anyways, I'm just wondering what you guys think. Am I missing something? Do I not understand the underlying physics well enough? (This is, after all, self-taught). Is there something wrong with my resistance? Because that seems rather low, too.

Thanks for the help.

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#1

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

12/31/2012 10:50 PM

I'd say you're on the right track.

But your argument falls apart when you state, "F = (μ∗(V/R)^2)/2π*ln(d/r)

where μ = 1.2366 * 10-6 N/A2, V is 300 volts"
Now go back to Newton's second law and study it more closely. You will see the folly of your assumptions.

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#2

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/01/2013 3:45 AM

M= 0.5kg
WTF are you trying to do knock holes in army surplus Sherman Tanks?

I think it's the sort of application where calculation isn't going to yield an accurate answer due to the transients, high peak voltages/currents, unmeasurable resistances and friction etc.

I'd say the prototype and some experimentation will teach you more.
Del

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#17
In reply to #2

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 8:47 AM

WTF are you trying to do knock holes in army surplus Sherman Tanks?

Not at .02 m/s!

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#3

Re: Rail-gun Calculation Problems

01/01/2013 7:12 AM

and you need a railgun for what? is there a ballistic missile in the neighborhood thats annoying you?

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Rail-gun Calculation Problems

01/01/2013 2:16 PM

Maybe just a drone.

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#16
In reply to #3

Re: Rail-gun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 8:19 AM

I agree.....I think your first problem is you did not employ Arnold (remember the movie "Eraser"?). If you succeed, I would like the plans. It may be the only legal form of weapon in the near future.

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#4

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/01/2013 8:27 AM

Leaving aside questions about the physics of your approach, I'm trying to understand what you're doing with your math analysis.

You go from ln(d/r) to ln(dr) which I assume is just a typo in the last 2 equations. You can take the ln of d/r; you can't take the ln of dr because dr is not dimensionless.

It appears you're using the discharge of a capacitor to provide the voltage to this railgun, and you get the discharge time τ (you use s) as 0.00003 seconds by multiplying R*C? Yet it's 0.000036. (?)

You don't define n.

You convert an acceleration, a, directly into meters/sec/sec? In the last equation you've substituted m/s/s for a; a more conventional substitution would be velocity/time, v/t, and then you could insert the value of tau from your R*C time constant that you call s, for the time, t.

If I put your equations into Mathcad and set n=1 (again, ignoring the physics of whether what you're doing is right, or not) I get v = 1,208 meters/sec.

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#5

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/01/2013 9:32 AM

To get a feel for the figures, consider converting all the energy stored in the capacitor to kinetic energy in the projectile.

½CV2 = 0.5 * 0.003 * 300 * 300 = 135J

(C = capacitance in Farads, V = voltage in volts).

Plugging this into ½mv2, where m is the projectile mass, 0.5kg, and v is the velocity in meters/second, gives v ≈ 23 ms-1.

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#9
In reply to #5

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 4:02 AM

<tap, tap, press equals...>....er, the weight of a crow doing 51mph. Not enough to crack a car windscreen.

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#11
In reply to #9

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 4:23 AM

Prolly would if it was a frozen crow .

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 4:25 AM

Does it need to be a frozen, conductive or magnetic crow for the rail gun to work?

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#13
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Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 4:26 AM
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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 7:56 AM

I've heard that story many times over the years, each time the teller *swearing* it was a true story. Much as I'd like to believe it, I gotta go with Snopes.

It does remind me, though, of an incident that happened with one of my brothers who is an avid hunter. He was explaining how he shot his first turkey this latest hunting season. He admits scared the hell out of the other people there in the frozen food section.

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#7

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 12:06 AM

The impressive high (supersonic) demonstrations use high capacitors, high voltages and (tens) of grams of bullets.

Hypersonic results stems from the same light bullet accelerated by a multistage ruptured disk pneumatic gun.

Other than that DG is correct.

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#8

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 3:38 AM

Simpler projectlie weapons are also available
Del

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#10
In reply to #8

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 4:03 AM

Pack it up, Del.

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#14

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 6:28 AM

I've got a headache now

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#18

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 10:18 AM

I agree with Lyn ( by default ). Your mathematics need some polish. The larger question here is are you simply trying to avoid building a firearm? I think the authorities might conclude this too is a firearm. Of course, they might consider an atlatl to be a firearm.

Do you assume constant acceleration? I have my doubts about this in any practical device, since this assumes a constant dynamic impulse through the extent (length) of the rails. Since your accelerations include should include the integral of the impulse function, combined with the integral of the drag equation, changes in electrical characteristics as the transient is propagated, etc., I do not see you or anyone presenting a closed form solution to this any time soon, other than crude approximation. Build it and they will come.

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#19

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 12:28 PM

Sounds pretty cool. Might you be building this to enter in the annual Pumpkin-Chunkin contest?

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/02/2013 2:21 PM

pumpkins weigh more than 0.5 Kg, nes pas?

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#21
In reply to #20

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/03/2013 7:17 AM

nes pas n'est-ce pas

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#22
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Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/03/2013 9:13 AM

I really should have studied my French lessons. Too busy reading Playboy, I suppose.

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#23
In reply to #22

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/03/2013 9:15 AM

I dont read that, just look at he pictures

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#27
In reply to #23

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/04/2013 9:27 AM

yeah, I was trying to hard to be PC.

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#25
In reply to #20

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/03/2013 12:08 PM

Yes, you are right! And the pumpkins used in the national contest have much thicker walls than a standard pumpkin as they are a well protected variety. Specially grown just for the event. Collapse is one of the biggest problems of accelerating a pumpkin to the velocity required to win the contest.

My point is that a big rail gun has not been used as yet. If I had the time and money, I'd love the challenge, but I would start with something like a standard 0.5Kg and move up from there. Understanding the dynamics is essential. When you have to make adjustments because all pumpkins are not the same weight, it throws in variables that have to be adjusted, but which ones? Can it be done electronically or do things have to be moved?

Just wandering outside the box a little bit....

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/03/2013 12:12 PM

I believe they call a collapse a "pie"

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#28
In reply to #25

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/04/2013 9:30 AM

I think the big secret to optimum punkin' chunkin' is a machine that would slowly add force throughout the range of acceleration to release. High impulse = pie. Steady impulse, i.e. - linear increase in force (and acceleration), or something low linear increasing impulse, (parabolic increase in acceleration), should produce a more useful result. I tend to think of a rail gun as something with pretty high inital impulse.

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#24

Re: Railgun Calculation Problems

01/03/2013 10:29 AM

It is complicated:

no input (energy) = no output (energy)

Duh.

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