Highspeed Rail

Just thought I let you know we just received the go for the San Fran end of the project. ~130 miles $400 million should start by December. Looks like some bridges are going to be thrown in (o' joy). Also looks like UPRR (Union Pacific) (they do freight) is paying 80% of the funding according to the contract. I also check the one in Riverside UPRR is paying 80%. 20% from CA and Fed tax payers and a couple other sources.

I'm just going by the legally signed a binding contract we have so don't shot the messenger.

The word at the waterin' hole is UPRR got a deal on land for future projects.

I've got no complaints about that. Congratulations!!!

Just out of curiosity, why is UPRR involved? Are they going to be moving freight?

Being naturally suspicious, I can't help but wonder if UPRR got a massive government grant, in order to make it look like private interests are doing the bulk of the funding.

From what I'm hearing it allows them access to land that normally they wouldn't be allowed to. I'm think running parallel to the HSR???? We're not pre-vie to their internal thinking.

I'm sure you're not, and it doesn't really matter.

I'm glad you got the contract, and I'm glad that CA found a way to do it without miring itself, (at least on this leg), in piles of new debt.

Must have been a hell of a deal; it caused a complete 180.

http://www.cahsrblog.com/2011/10/union-pacific-continues-war-against-high-speed-rail/

Joseph Vranich makes a good argument, even though the comments go back to 2008. So as a believer in HSR, he makes the strong point that it is the High Speed Rail authority and their questionable outcomes that appear to be 'the bad guys', not HSR as a technology.

True. Only a fool would be against the technology. It's just not the answer everywhere.

Nobody would argue that air travel is bad, but get government involved, and we are even able to waste billions on that.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2012/may/23/subsidized-us-flights-carry-few-passengers/

This is an article that pertains to the view of the Chinese. http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/bullet-train-study-finds-remote-244304.aspx

I'm not saying that HSR is bad. I'm just saying that it isn't feasible in the US.

We can surely build them, but we can't make people use them. I don't see the point in building something that will enjoy limited use, and will lose money from day one. Australia is a great place for HSR; there aren't towns, hotels, restaurants, etc., between destinations, and a broken down car between some of those points could be deadly.

There is also a whole lot of empty space in Australia. In the US, these rails would necessarily have to go through populated areas. It requires billions, just to acquire the land.

There is a major inner city, road dual tunnel capital structure that was built in the last decade in Perth, (on the west coast of Australia), called the 'Polly Pipe' after a famous local footballer, not a politician! The land was purchased, 4 lines of piles were put in place, these were capped in concrete and then the dirt was dug out to complete the 6 lanes. The final step was to resell the land above the tunnels, for more than it cost to buy the land. And now the inner city 5 commuter line train interchange is also being moved underground in the middle of the CBD.

The same strategy can apply to HSR. Good planning, smart engineering and astute money management can have a win! win! outcome.

In the washup of the recent TOD HSR Conference in Washington DC, mid Feb 2013, it was stated that Amtrak rail ridership has grown 55% since 1997. During the same period driving measured in miles travelled only grew 15% and domestic air travel by 20%. (http://www.newurbanism.org) This is why there are calls to change the rail/car/air mix in financial importance.

At the same conference, it was stated that 600,000 Americans have 'megacommutes' of over 90 minutes (50 miles), every working morning and repeated in the afternoon. Now, tell me again why HSR should NOT be on the agenda.

And a final point, look at the countries with a nett trading export surplus that also have a strong commitment to high speed rail. (Examples include Korea, China, Germany ....) Can the USA not afford to adopt a plan like below?

Amtrak rail ridership has grown 55%

have to do a little investagating to see what the BEP on total ridership is for it to be somewhat profitable.

So what about the alignment of countries with an export trade surplus and HSR?
Yes, it could be argued that the observation is too simplistic, but an interesting point.

I agree, .......... that is simplistic

It will be here any day now; we just need to pass more acts and spend more money. We've only been at it since 1965. These things take time.

See related efforts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Maglev_Initiative

As I understand it, the USA has had a net trading loss with the rest of the world since 1980. HSR could be part of the necessary economic refocus ... but I appreciate the skepticism about the adoption of fundamental federal financing fixes.

To be honest, without massive iron ore, coal, gas and bauxite exports, Australia would in the same basket. The immediate future includes investing a portion of the trade surplus in infrastructure to 'future proof' the nation, and that may include HSR when the modelling demonstrates realistic viability.

Agree 100%.

With our fiscal mess that our government has created, we've got bigger fish to fry at the moment.

OK, so we are aligned that fiscal change is needed.

I am in the middle of my own battle as I write this. I was a local government councillor (2009-2011) and questioned the cost of US$52,000 for 12 sqm (140 sqft) of bitumen saying that the figure seemed 'exaggerated'. I get accused of inferring that the staff member who wrote the report as being dishonest. I even failed in a Supreme Court challenge ... when the judges (a) had no idea of the cost of bitumen and (b) did not accept that the staff 'padded figures' as standard practice.

My own little situation has serious parallels at all levels of government in multiple countries.

Alright, enough of the complaining, let's collectively do something about it, starting with the idea of developing a "World Costing Model" for infrastructure. The big contractors work worldwide, so surely they should have a common pricing model. Inputs like steel, concrete, oil and a "Cat D11 dozer" are becoming international commodities with similar pricing. Further, if designs and project management strategies were 'recycled' then that could generate substantial savings.

In 2008 as part of the economic stimulus in Australia, the same school library design was duplicated maybe 50 plus times in one state .... and the designers charged for 50 sets of library designs ... yes, it is called a rort or scam. It kills projects.

A simple answer about what all these people will do after getting to point B ... is go back to point A. Seriously, I also wonder about the 7 Billion of us existing on this finite resource. I guess that is why government's worldwide print money to keep us amused with beer and circus's.

Charging twice for the same design is I agree not acceptable, but charging a licence fee to reuse a whole or partial design previously used on another contract is both fair and reasonable. There are instances where a one off project will not be viable if all of the design charge is applied to the first project. Amortising an architectural design cost over the first few projects is as legitimate as amortising recovery of the cost of a production plant over the first two years of production. If the design is so good that it has more applications than originally envisaged, and as a result the designers profits are boosted, this also is fair and reasonable. The whole of patent and copyright law is based on these principles. If this practice is outlawed there is no incentive to produce the best design. The only way to stay in business would be to produce one off designs for all projects, so the best features of a design would eventually have to be rejected just for the designs to remain novel.

In the UK we have a Audit Commissioners who provides oversight for council spending. If profligacy is uncovered (and US$52000 for 12m² is definitely profligate unless the bitumen was laid on top of a 120 story building or in other extenuating circumstances) the councillors can be surcharged to recover the overspend. This is a powerful incentive not to approve abuses of tax payers money.

We have a similar set-up for Parliament called the Public Accounts Committee but it is comprised of parliamentarians and the worst sanction is 'a slap on the wrist' so it does not work as it should.

The full design fee was charged for the first design package .... then repeated with 'very expensive' title block changes. Fortunately it happened in only 1 state in Australia as part of the Federal Government's 'school facilities financial stimulus package' in 2008/2009.

Sounds similar to the New Jersey Educational Association.

There are other factors as well. The comparison to China is a false narrative. The US, (as a whole), is moving away from manufacturing, which requires human bodies to be transported to the job.

Because of technology, we are also able to much more work with fewer people:

http://www.aei-ideas.org/2013/01/did-normalizing-trade-relations-with-china-cost-america-1-5-million-jobs-in-2001/

With telecommuting rising drastically, it would be a shame to build a bunch of HSR trains, when they will not be needed.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/forrester/telecommuting-will-rise-to-include-43-of-us-workers-by-2016/165

http://www.environmentalleader.com/2010/07/14/telecommuting-could-save-small-to-mid-sized-u-s-businesses-124b/

High speed internet could eliminate a lot of road traffic and congestion, for far less money than high speed rail.

As I have previously suggested HSR should not be viewed in isolation but the close links to real estate and development are where it's at. And now I read that US$190 million was paid for a 50,000 sq ft site near a possible San Fransisco HSR rail station. On the site, the plan is to build a 1000ft mixed use community that will become the tallest building on the west coast. (That's almost US$4,000 per sq ft ... measure it out on your desk ... US$4,000).

Also, Avis car rental have just announced that they are expanding their outlet network near more rail stations of Taiwan, as part of the connectivity for the locals and tourists.

The transport, living and working options are changing. HSR could be part of the mix.

I'm not dismissing HSR, but why start from the beginning with a $60 billion project? They should gradually implement it in the most congested areas, and base future additions on the success of the shorter runs.

On a side note: Building the tallest building on the west coast, right on top of a fault zone, sounds like another monumentally stupid idea.

http://nationalatlas.gov/articles/geology/features/sanandreas.html

I agree, HSR can be used to reduce the grief of congested areas. In the Copenhagen example of building a new driverless commuter rail system, they did add a couple of greenfield stations to the network, and the developments in these areas paid for the whole system.

I do like the idea of the LA - Las Vegas (tourist) HSR service with the profits invested into other HSR links. An upfront $60 Billion project is just not a practical reality, unless you live in a country funded by a fat trade surplus.

Back to the original question.
Are there experts who know how to build HSR? YES, and they're getting faster.
And do it in taxifornia? That's the 64 Billion dollar question, and rising.

When there is no continuous Amtrak rail link between LA and San Francisco, and the trip with connections often cannot keep to the timetable, then you can understand why the people are skeptical. Time to sort out the basics and then advance from that.

My thoughts on HSR are: Draw a circle around a major airways hub measured in hours and minutes, door-to-door. That would be the maximum distance to be serviced by HSR. Right now, travel time is measured door-to-door which includes travel from home to the airport, time to go through security, flight time, travel from airport to destination. Add up these times and if HSR can equal that or better, it's a good plan. Air travel is really the big competition to HSR.

Draw a circle around a major highway hub, measured in time door to door for driving. That would be the minimum distance to be serviced by HSR. Also, unless the destination has a good transit system or your final destination is within walking distance of the train station, I prefer my own car. Both renting a car or especially using taxis, can be very expensive in some cities. The transit infrastructure to support using a train has to be there. Now, if you could ferry your car on the HSR, I would like that.

I am not sure of the total economic modelling in California, be it for hospitals, community infrastructure and other services, but the implication is that the state is headed in a hand cart to a cash crisis hell hole. There is also the commentry that HSR will just grease the tracks so the debt disaster will arrive sooner.

On the other side of the ledger, reading the California Association of Realtors (CARS) information, it appears that median house prices in 'taxifornia' have improved dramatically and are estimated to achieve some 10.9% in 2013 alone. (Estimates suggest 50% improvement by 2017 in 4 years).

So if the median house pricing is improving so much on the west coast, (from an apparent demand from those who want to stay or move to California), then those who question the economics of HSR with the TODs (transit oriented developments) and a range of housing opportunities with associated commercial mixed uses, just don't see the possible bigger picture.

"I am not sure of the total economic modelling in California" . . . "So if the median house pricing is improving so much on the west coast" . . .

Your research is missing SO MUCH of the economic mess that is California!

It is a big mess. I lived in the Santa Cruz mountains for 11 years, and had to come back to the east coast.

Getting UPRR to pay for the bulk of this deal, sounds pretty good. It'll be interesting to find out later, what the deal actually was. It had to be pretty darned sweet for Union Pacific to take it.

Engineers measure things so they can be managed with an open mind to improve outcomes. The economics of California are somewhat dominated by the apparent fixed and narrow-minded politics, vested interests, public commentators (see '55 reasons not to live in California etc), and mixed attitudes of those with their hands on the levers of power.

As for a way forward, (a) develop a sense of pride (that results in everyone picking up rubbish), (b) encourage and support better education by and for all, (improves incomes, drops birth rates and broadens the acceptance of a diverse community makeup), and (c) legalise social drugs and supply at their actual prices, (that can dramatically drop crime levels and drop the purchase costs).

On the legalise social drugs front, those who might overdose on cheap drugs and sadly die, well that's an example of 'natural selection'. I also find it unfortunate that countries like the USA are actually funding BOTH sides of the Afghan war ... by paying taxes to finance the allied side, and buying street drugs at high prices in support of the war lords.

By following the simple (a)(b)(c) plan, then California could be one of the better states and building / funding / community acceptance of HSR would be a breeze.

... As for a way forward, (a) develop a sense of pride (that results in everyone picking up rubbish) ...

How about some basic infrastructure upkeep?

"Los Angeles has made zero progress in recent years in reducing the $1.5-billion backlog of repairs to its battered, broken and buckled sidewalks."

That's 1.5 billion dollars just for sidewalks in Los Angeles.

"City Council Eyes $3B Bond Measure To Fix LA Streets"

That's another 3 billion dollars, just for L.A. streets.

Here's a fun one -- water main failures.

"Southern California Public Radio is mapping water main breaks in the Los Angeles area." (Only for 2009-2010). (via Google Maps)

News reports are numerous. https://www.google.com/search?q=los+angeles+water+mains

So, "pride" is a little difficult to muster for some of us locals.

Not to mention, the bankrupt cities and local politicians in court for stealing money.

Don from Oz has good points too, but this is outside the scope of CR4 talk.

I'm over here too. Same name, same picture, and I don't agree with everyone.

http://conservativepoliticalforum.com/

Community support and positive pride starts at the front gate.
1. My water fountain (mounted to the fence) has been used 20,000 times in 4 years.
2. There is a bowl attached to give your walking companion dog a drink.
3. On the fence is a doggy bag dispenser.
4. Close by is a litter sulo bin for street rubbish and doggy bags, cleared 3 times /week
5. The area is covered by my CCTV system.

Dividends:
1. Street is effectively litter-free, picked up by passerbys inc young skateboarders.
2. The people walking their dogs provide free community policing eyes on the street.
3. There is virtually no graffiti, even during school holidays.
4. The CCTV has been used in 3 court cases & supports the monitoring 'urban myth'.

Meeting the community half way continues to generate pride at virtually no cost.

As for the basic infrastructure upkeep, sustainability (ongoing funding) is a requirement of all local governments across Australia. You cannot provide a toilet or BBQ without a plan on how it is going to be sustained and/or replaced when it reaches its use-by date. It is just commonsense.

OK, if there are budgets for the upkeep of infrastructure, then as engineers it is surely our responsibility to show innovation when called on to redesign systems to achieve required outcomes. You are not suggesting that we go back to the horse as the only means of transport, (unless you have a camel), valve radio and fingers for counting etc?

Instead of saying that HSR cannot be viable in California, how about a 180 degree change of thinking and work out how it can be done, sustainably, with a long term community dividend. Is it really that hard? Others have done it. Where is that Yankee 'can do it .... better!' thinking?

Does the pride and respect come from within the individual, or is it assured by government and cameras?

The US was founded upon the power of the individual,and the freedom to pursue happiness. I still believe that people are inherently good.

It shouldn't require 24 hour surveillance.

Pride should come from both ... but maybe not the cameras. There is a difference between 24/7 monitored cameras and those for purposes of record. My discrete cameras are of the latter focus and are accepted as part of the 'street furniture'.

I also have a 'Road Memory' GPS camera in my car that just recorded a vehicle in front where the passenger dropped a cigarette butt. There are literally billions of these discarded each year. They are typically plastic and cause no end of death and destruction to the wildlife. So should I report today's incident to the 'Keep Australia Beautiful Council'. It is a $200 fine. (Vehicle plate 1ASE 308, white Hyundai Excel, passenger was a 20 year old male, local time 2.19pm). Do I endorse the 'power of the individual and the freedom to pursue happiness' or do I report (with dated video) the littering incident? I will let you decide. No response and I make the report and his pocket is hit $200.

At some point as members of a bigger society, we are asked to be active in that bigger society, be it picking up rubbish or working out how a HSR system might be feasible. I do not like the $1000 screwdrivers, and I guess that is why the F-35 is getting so much criticism. Yes, Australia has signed up to a number of JFC's with the heavy price tag, but it would seem that the Indian's will have a better capability in my region of the world. As engineers, a bit like the doctors' oath, we should strive to do it better with eyes open, even if it might be HSR in Taxifornia.

I don't condone littering, but I think that government encroachment poses a much higher risk to society than cigarette butts.

Well Kramarat, you saved that guy $200 from a littering fine. You did respond so 10/10.

As for Pantaz, with neighbour's house foundations in distress and it would seem that they are considering driving to Walmart with the credit card to buy a Chinese aircon, then may I suggest:

1. If the credit card pays for the aircon, then there is still enough confidence from the suppliers of the finance to permit such a transaction. This assumes that the neighbour has some income to keep the credit card supplier happy and no doubt pay the immediate install costs and the electricity bill to make it run.

2. OK, so now the neighbour has an improved environment to think more clearly and not be stressed out. I agree, it is an immediate bandaid, but at least the neighbour maybe more open to wise suggestion and help.

3. Next step, knock on the neighbour's door to get his attention. Bring a shovel and your experience. Comment on the failing foundations and show him what you did at your own place next door to fix the situation. (This assumes that you did fix the problems on your side of the fence).

4. And if your neighbour says that he has no money or keenness to do the repairs, then you might remind him quietly that the credit card company will only increase the credit card limit if things are put right.

5. Hopefully you both put your beers in front of the aircon to keep relatively cool, (no need to pour them down the sink), and go look at the foundations, with the promise of those beers after a job well done .. or at least started. (The journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step etc).

To say that your neighbour cannot buy the aircon until the foundations are fixed goes against the idea of 'free choice in a free country'. They may enjoy living in a crumbling castle and do not care about the bitchy people on the other side of the fence. They may know no better. That is why I believe in the 6 E's, practical education, good example, enterprise, community engagement, honest effort and questioning endeavour ... it's what engineering is about.

Interesting strawman, but you failed to answer the question as asked.

And, if you believe credit cards are in any way analogous to multi-billion-dollar bond measures, then your understanding of economics is worse than mine.

Your points are well taken Don, but the utter disaster that CA has created for themselves, cannot be understated.

Entire cities are going bankrupt. The state is going bankrupt. People are leaving there in droves. Businesses are leaving there in droves. Taxes keep going up. More people leave.

Until they fix the foundation, there is no way in hell that a $60 billion train is going to make things better. By the time it's done, nobody will be around to ride it.

The news of our death (California) has been highly exaggerated: Life is flourishing and the enthusiasm of the most ambitious among us will make themselves very rich over this. Bakersfield California has a lot of opportunist who will use the political process to benefit themselves. Isn't that the way it is?

While you are all being nice to your credit rating guys, you may as well start at the beginning .... like how do we as a world with north of 7 billion people actually achieve some sort of sustainability, where we share the resources between the lot of us, and maintain diversity without going to war. I think it was called Camelot. (Same couple of letters at the start as California).

At the end of the day, to sustain life, do we really need accountants, (finance historians), lawyers, (people who debate for a percentage of the contrived and often inflated legal costs), chief executive officers (overpaid administrators), religious preachers (all flavours, that double as mind controllers), professional sports people (the beer and circus distraction brigade), entertainers (creators of illusions to keep us happy) and politicians with their appointees (groups that curb our personal freedom like an army of occupation)?

Imagine how much personal tax could be reduced if all of the above occupations were banished. Sadly, we have allowed the mushroom to grow and stack on a hefty percentage to the practical cost of designing and building infrastructure, whatever it is, including HSR. I guess it is justified by the perceived need to create employment.

Getting back to the basics ....do we as a world decide that maybe 7 Billion residents on this earth is a number that should be allowed to naturally decline to a more sustainable level, whatever that number might be, and with it, the career focus should be on more sustainable practical activities. And if you get to that point and have not thrown your coffee at the wall, then maybe you might be open to consider the efficiencies and sustainability of the transport options, door to door, and guess what, up to 500 miles, HSR has a part to play.

The bank note and/or credit card in your pocket, regardless in which of the 50 states, is only as good as the collective confidence that if used as a means of exchange, it will be accepted by the receiver as having value. Similarly, those bankrupt local councils only exist and provide services if the community has current confidence in the civic entities.

And along similar lines, the bail out of GM etc depended on the confidence of the Federal Government to believe that restructuring would have a positive outcome.

It would seem that some pessimists are so fixed in their position that restructuring, a refocus and seeking to improve things within California, like HSR, is just 'not permitted as an option' and the total demise of California is the only option possible as some sort of 'punishment for wanting to be different'. It kind of reminds me of Hank Williams' song "Life gets tedious don't it", including the line about taxes.

Engineers that are true to the cause try to fix stuff regardless of the challenge, even if it is a solution from 'left field'. They don't usually give up like in the Hank Williams song.

(As for being a 'strawman' ... straw is a useful material when mixed with mud to make reinforced and well insulated house walls ... that could even replace those crumbling foundations. It is all a matter of how you look at the world!)

I agree with you. It sure will be nice to see that HSR come into existence and work. I just don't think that the probability of its sucess is very high. We in this country are suffering from the problem of "normalcy." Just because something has not happened in our lifetime we think that it cannot or will not happen. Sadly California is not much different from the other states in this regard so they have a lot of company. Wishful thinking does not trump reality no matter how fervantly we want it to. The whole state is going bankrupt one city at a time and as they ratchet up the taxes to try to pay for it more and more business will leave which will cause them to try to raise the taxes more. It is this viscious cycle that they are caught in and they don't recognize it which is why they think that a massive spending program like this one will somehow save them. It won't. But an even BIGGER problem is that the whole country is also following that path. The country is on the downhill slide and the Federal Gov doesn't recognize it either.

So if you follow the Hank Williams song "Life gets tedious don't it" .. and just sit there and do nothing to change the "BIGGER problem", then surely you must recognise that you, like the Federal Gov, are part of the problem too.

OK, so what can you do to change the situation?

Well, as I have said before, show some pride, engage with the issues, use some imagination/engineering and fix them. In my own part of the world, I have taken on the local government administration that said that $70,000 to fix the entrance to a shopping centre was the 'true cost' and too expensive so could not be done. A private quote given to me was $11,000 with the traffic management etc .... so then I lobbied the shopping centre owner who had identified separately that mothers (25-39 years old) would not shop there because of dragging their car transmissions over the entrance ... and guess what, the shopping centre fixed the entrance AT NO COST to the community. Yes, the local government staff were embarrassed but did recognise that it was something they had never considered as a fix to a well known problem.

Now, I am not saying that all problems can be resolved this way. But think of the Japanese who started having meetings where no one could sit down. Instead of the discussions rambling on for hours, with a coffee break and sometimes lunch at some cost and loss of productivity, the meeting times became measurable in minutes. Think of the bottom line savings. Imagine if Congress had all the comfortable chairs removed and the pollies had to stand while hearing and discussing bills etc. They would then be like a street sweeper or a policeman on the beat who also cannot sit while working. Do you think the point might be made? And what about in your own workplace?

Final point .... if the commuter trains also had no seats, then the riders would want HSR so the standing up time was minimised! (I just had to get that one in ... yea, I can hear the screams about safety and density from here .... 12,000 miles away!)

That "true cost" probably includes administrative costs, studies, lunches, overhead and all the bureaucratic costs associated with getting anything done. Many times fiscal budgets are based on how much money you spend in the previous year. I know this is true in the federal government. When I was a "government servant" years ago, I was told by my supervisor to spend as much as I could in order to get more money for the new fiscal year. I remember buying items that were only remotely associated with the job I was working on. One such item was a model airplane radio control to be used on one of our projects. It ended up on a shelf and never use.

That behavior goes right down to the local level. My old buddy that was retired highway patrol, told me that they would order all kinds of things they didn't need, like computers, monitors, etc., and just stuff them in closets, unopened. It was to boost the following years budget and make sure they didn't get any cuts.

I think we are all on the same page when it comes to 'padding of costs' for a range of spurious reasons. Maybe Kalifornia does it in spades and then tries to tax too hard to pay for it.

So how do we highlight all those 'emperor's new clothes' situations, and bring practical reality with honest audit rigor to the table? (Getting all to stand up and be responsible might be a start). The rewards .... a project, a city, a country, a world where 'slippage and waste' becomes yesterday's news. And maybe then, HSR and a range of other worthy schemes have a real future.

"and, when that happens"

in Taxifornia, which has the highest income and sales tax in the nation, with new taxes, surcharges, and fees eyed for drivers, drinkers of sugary soft drinks, users of prepaid cell phones, patrons of strip clubs, and stores that use paper and plastic bags. Businesses are also being targeted: revised commercial property tax regulations, an oil severance tax, fees on mattress manufactures, ammunition and much more being contemplated. Taxafornia is the #1 welfare state in the nation with 3.3% of the population on public assistance~spending 3.8 billion dollars (2007), total unemployment recipients~1,212,893 (2008), unemployment 11.5% (May, 2009), 11.5 % of the population are food stamp recipients (2008), {2,398,897 as of December 2012},

47,791,996 people living in America are receiving food stamps, (nearly 1 in 6 people) 47% of the people in America pay (0) Zero income tax, another 8% of the population (25 million) don't even show up anywhere on tax returns. (leaving the remaining 45% to pay for EVERYTHING)

"and when that happens, I'll join your enthusiasm". In the mean time, I have sympathy and compassion for those less fortunate and in need, however, laziness and the need for a "free cellphone" does not meet the definition of 'hard times in the land of plenty' Socialism is fast approaching AND the government will provide for all. Personally, I'll pay my taxes, shun public assistance, and attempt to maintain my liberty, as free from the "government as I possibly can.

OK Don I will attempt to answer that. It is appropriate to expect some help from others when you truly need it. Here I will quote Dennis Miller" we should help the truly helpless but we don't give a damn about the clueless." Most of CA's financial problems are the same as the Fed's problems because they are the result of socialist economic policies twisted into crony capitalism as well. The penchant for piling on to big projects is so well known that it is amazing to me that anyone believes that any public works project will actually come in under budget. Indeed the Federal Davis Bacon wage act is crony capitalism which drives up the cost of everything the government does. Small local solutions can be had. Look at Donald Trump and the Wollman skating rink. But the structural regulations built into the system make it nearly impossible to achieve it on the grand scale.

Not understanding GM started out under $3 at the the time of the bailout now they are over $30 a share and just bought back the last 300 million shares from the government. Its $49.5 billion bail out has been paid back in full. So why will the feds be eating the $50 billion????

GM received $50 billion from the US Treasury. In return the Treasure received GM stock and GM has payed back in cash a portion of the bailout money.

According to this article (dated Dec 2012) that GM intends to buy back 40% of it's stock at a stock price of $27.50/share well below the $53/share needed for the government to break even. So that means the remaining shares will need to sell at $69.72/share in order for the government to break even.

And it appears that GM may not have even paid back what the administration and GM claim they did. From this link:

"...it's not clear that GM actually repaid what it's gotten credit for repaying. Check out this note buried in the inspector's report: "As part of a credit agreement with Treasury, $16.4 billion in TARP funds were placed in an escrow account that GM could access only with Treasury's permission."

As it turns out, GM got Treasury's OK to "repay" more than $6.7 billion "using a portion of the escrow account that had been funded with TARP funds." So GM is merely paying the government back with government money, not money GM is earning selling cars, as the administration has claimed."

Date of the acticle over a year ago. Find something newer. Like the Forbes article I found from three days ago.

Many of the touted GM paybacks, don't consider the potential $45 billion in taxes that they won't be paying.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/rick-newman/2012/12/19/its-official-taxpayers-will-lose-big-on-the-gm-bailout

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB20001424052748704462704575590642149103202.html

I did a quick search and didn't find anything pertinent in the past month on Forbes' site. Did you provide a link in one of your earlier posts? If so I'll go have a look, if not, could you provide a link please?

I posted two links one dated Apr 2012 (not quite a year ago, but almost) and the other dated Dec 2012. Not all that long ago. It's interesting to note that the stock market has been moving quite strong since the beginning of the year, yet GM stock is down around 28 now from a high of just over 30 in January.

You're right, I should have looked for more recent information.

Here's an article from Jan 30^th of this year. It states that the break even point for the Treasury (taxpayer) at $71.86/share instead of the price of $69.72/share the Dec article listed.

To recover all of its investment in GM, Treasury would need to sell the General Motors Co. shares it still holds at an average "break-even" price of $71.86 each -- more than double their current price of around $28. Treasury has held the stock for over two years, awaiting a better price.

By the way, where did you see that GM's stock price had a high of $41/share? I looked here (yahoo finance) and it appears to never get above $33/share in the past 2 years and the low was down around $18/share, not $28/share. I used the stock symbol GM. Are you looking at the same?

I think some commentating need a cold shower.

Throwing around out-of-date data as gospel is at best disappointing and not professional.
In Australia, 10 yrs ago, our prime minister stated WMD as THE reason to enter Iraq war.
Regardless of the support model, GM is alive and generates export profits from selling more GM cars in China than in the USA.
HSR works in countries like Germany, China, Japan and Korea.
Pulling in your head and being an isolationist is getting more difficult. Since 1950, the world population has almost tripled to 7 Billion, consuming more and wanting a better life. For those who do not want to engage and share, you better start building a deeper bunker.

But ... if you think that it is OK for the current and future generations to seek a better life, that may include your own children, then take a practical and honest look at technologies like better food management (currently a third or thereabouts of food is wasted), open education for a more accepting and improving population, and yes, transport options that may improve the efficient use of resources, be it the internet or .... HSR.

Walmart has been looking for innovation to maintain market share, and the latest strategy is to get store customers to deliver the orders of online shoppers to overcome the 'last mile' delivery issues.

Other retailers are looking at systems to sell their received online orders to the courier companies at the warehouse door. The courier collects the payment for the online orders and delivery at the customer's receiving point. The range of online buying options is creating multiple opportunities.

The HSR operators with effective rapid node-to-node connections, particularly with transit oriented developments (TOD's) as part of the stations, could profitably get into the online order delivery business using new smart systems with a high degree of automation, running 24/7, and driverless HSR trains.

There quite a bit of info on HSR

Out of a $12B boondoggle, $800,000,000.00 is spent to shave a few minutes off your trip....... and when taken the bus is actually cheaper.

Living in Wisconsin, I'm glad that our governor did not bend to special interest unions and instead turned the Federal Grants down for this.

I Hope and wish California Good Luck on this........ but remember "Luck or hope is not a strategy"

Try this link

It would be interesting to put the spin to one side and evaluate the historical financial position of a technology like rail transport from the beginning on the evolution of the USA community.

Rail technology continues to improve.

In the Australian context, I lived in Kalgoorlie, some 370 miles from Perth, the capital on the west coast. 60 years ago, the steam powered 'Kalgoorlie Express' trip was an accepted 16 hours ... to be replaced with the first diesel engines and a cut in time to 14 hours. 30 years ago, the 'Express' was replaced with the 'Prospector' railcars at a greatly appreciated 8 hours. Today there is another generation of railcars that do the distance in under 6 hours, squeezing in and out of the 1.8km long fast freights running in both directions, 7 days a week, on a single standard gauge for most of the distance. Today's Prospector is designed to do the trip in under 4 hours. Why must the improvements in rail transport stop now?

Historical cost model did not include all today's cash charge inputs

But the worst part of the many Australian government established rail services was that they were saddled with so much debt from the start. There was never a dividend returned to offset the costs from the commercial benefits of opening up the land. The rail systems carried the stigma of being a dead financial weight and I fear that the same 'education' carries on in the USA. In today's context, if you buy a block of land to build a home, the cost includes full recovery charges for roads, utilities distribution and a profit, all up front. In the past, the cost of making land available was distributed over many generations and carried by governments. The balance is somewhere in the middle.

When the large iron ore mines of the north west of Australia were started and new rail systems were constructed, the skeptics were of the belief that the mines were doomed because of the use of rail. Well, I think BHP Billiton and Rio Tinto have the last laugh. Driverless trains around 5km long operate very successfully over many hundreds of kilometres. The high tech rail networks are just part of the very profitable operations.

Back to the HSR considerations.

Instead of rejecting the whole HSR system because of the taxifornia' charging model used in other community pursuits, what if practical innovation was adopted as the strategy from the start, such as (a) accepting that HSR may decrease the door-to-door transport time by MORE than a few minutes, (b) the total finance model should include returns from a range of above and below the line cash inputs, and (c) private funding sources (with or without encouraging tax breaks) may be the best way without increasing the cash debts of governments.

Nobody has a reason to travel between northern and southern CA. Everything is available in both places, and all points in between.

Highway 5 is empty between the two, except for right around the cities during rush hour.

Northern and southern CA are also completely different worlds that don't necessarily like each other.

The splitting of states, the removal from national federations, isolationalism and generally separating money, resources, nationality and other benefits, from areas of possible need is common the world over. It is not just a taxifornia phenomenon that has appeared in recent decades. Yes, the north of California may not have much in common with the south in these times, but with time, the weather vane can change.

But take a look back in history and the Californian Gold Rush. The money was in the north, not in the south. And then there was the period of the independent 'Bear Flag Republic' of California, yet for many reasons, California still joined the USA.

Maybe the perspective has to be more of being an inclusive person with the 7 Billion of us outside your front door. If you decide to pull your head in and not see who is knocking on your door, then do not be surprised if it was the fire brigade trying to help you out of your burning home.

Yeah. I'm sure the technology is fine, and the trains will work as advertised.

The only thing I'm having a problem with, (having lived in CA), is visualizing trainloads of people shuttling between San Francisco and LA. I just don't see it happening.

As already said, don't travel from LA to Frisco.... try 2/3rds of the distance and link LA with Las Vegas. Install the gambling slot machines in the seats and make the HSR part of Nevada at the rail car door so the gambling can start before the HSR has even left the platform. (This may require a percentage of profits to be paid into the taxifornian coffers).

And halfway to Las Vegas is the road and rail hub of Barstow. The HSR could pause here. Now there is the opportunity for a major series of transit oriented development apartments and mixed use commercial/retail space (TOD's) that could be used to (part) fund the construction of the HSR.

With the LA to Las Vegas distance around 230 miles, the HSR could be scaled back in speed (with resulting cost savings) to say an average speed of 160 mph (260 kph), so the total journey would take around 90 minutes. (45 minutes from Barstow to LA). Travelling at 210mph (340kph) so the travel time was under 70 minutes from LA to Las Vegas would not justify the extra costs to get to the tables 20 minutes faster. Anyway, the system could be massaging your wallet as soon as you board at LA.

Media release from the TOD Association

TIME FOR 21ST CENTURY TRANSPORTATION!

High speed rail is in the news again! Big news coming from California where the state's new HSR project received a glowing report from the U.S. Government Accountability Office after their critical audit of the project.

Also in the news is Katherine Perez-Estolano - USHSR Advisory Board Member - just appointed to the California High Speed Rail Authority Board! Also, Transit Oriented Development is taking off across America, especially in Los Angeles.

Not to bust your bubble, but the US Government Accountability Office has sat back, collected their salaries, and watched our idiot politicians bankrupt social security, bankrupt the nation, and put us almost $17 trillion in debt. They should be shut down and eliminated.

Christ, this is starting to sound like GW. Just find a report that matches your stance..... There are links saying its nothing more than just a $12B boondoggle. as far as GAO, their credibility is becoming more and more a political agenda.

1. Fortunately, I am not in the vicinity of the USA bubble but there again, we do share the one earth, its resources and financial exchange instruments.
   
   
2. The latest US Government Accountability Office does sound like a typical quango. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quango
   
   The term "quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisation" was created in 1967 by the Carnegie Foundation's Alan Pifer in an essay on independence and accountability in public-funded bodies incorporated in the private sector. This term was shortened to "quango" by Anthony Barker, a British participant during a follow-up conference on the subject. It describes an ostensibly non-governmental organisation performing governmental functions, often in receipt of funding or other support from government.
   
   
3. OK, so how about looking for some real solutions, like ....
   
   Is the world environmentally sustainable with 7 Billion people? If not, and barring the 'North Korean' solution to convert the world to a nuc dust bowl, what is to be done? (I note the claim that there are more mobile phones than people.)
   
   How do we improve the world's education for all? A better educated population eats better, has less children and enjoys improved income levels.
   
   With advertising, the popular thinking is that 'half is wasted but the challenge is working out which half'. Maybe the same can be said of the number of polies, their spending patterns, the expectations of the masses and getting value-for-taxpayer money.
   
   
   

Australian HSR update (April 11 2013)

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/national/16674637/high-speed-rail-viable-for-economy-study/

There is a new Australian Government study released today to link Melbourne via Canberra, Sydney to Brisbane on the east coast. 1050 miles. US$120 Billion. 40 year construction time frame. That's US$115 million / mile at the rate of US$3 Billion/year in 2013 dollars. I am not saying if it is a good thing or not, but thought I should at least include in the mix from a position of balance.