Asbestos is Not Uncommon in the US.

It is also important to make a distinction of when asbestos presents a hazard and when it is safe to handle....

Clutches and brake liners often are made with asbestos, and are typically safe to handle when new if undamaged.

I can't really think of other examples when you can relax precautions. Dust from brake wear and dust from the under-the-hood insulation on many cars represents a significant breathing hazard.

I can thing of several situations in which I may have had significant exposure many years ago, I think many of us probably have.

Hopefully luck at the craps table remains favorable.

"In 2009, 2 million tonnes of asbestos were mined worldwide. Russia was the largest producer with about 50% world share followed by China (14%), Brazil (12.5%), Kazakhstan (10.5%) and Canada (9%).^[12]

In late 2011, Canada's remaining two asbestos mines, both located in the Province of Quebec, halted operations.^[13] In September 2012, the newly elected government in the Province of Quebec followed through with an election promise to halt asbestos mining.^[14]"

^"Asbestos can be found naturally in the air outdoors and in some drinkable water, including water from natural sources.^[59] Studies have shown that members of the general (non-occupationally exposed) population have tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of asbestos fibers in each gram of dry lung tissue, which translates into millions of fibers and tens of thousands of asbestos bodies in every person's lungs.^[60]

Asbestos from natural geologic deposits is known as "naturally occurring asbestos" (NOA). Health risks associated with exposure to NOA are not yet fully understood, and current US federal regulations do not address exposure from NOA. Many populated areas are in proximity to shallow, natural deposits which occur in 50 of 58 California counties and in 19 other U.S. states. In one study, data was collected from 3,000 mesothelioma patients in California and 890 men with prostate cancer, a malignancy not known to be related to asbestos. The study found a correlation between the incidence of mesotheliomas and the distance a patient lived from known deposits of rock likely to include asbestos; the correlation was not present when the incidence of prostate cancer was compared with the same distances. According to the study, risk of mesothelioma declined by 6% for every 10 km that an individual had lived away from a likely asbestos source.^[61]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbestos

Solar Shadow© is pleased to announce full face protection through our subsidiaries (currently under negotiations)....

Ignorance indeed!

Here is a copy of the EPAs final rule on asbestos, that was released on June 12 1989. It banned just about every use of asbestos in the US.

http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pdf/frl-3476-2.pdf

It was a three phased incremental ban, and it contained much more than what is on your list. However, it suffered a setback in 1991, when it was overturned by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans, allowing uses that had already been established prior to 1989.

I think the reason you are so upset with all of the ignorant people, is that there is a general assumption that it has been banned, and while not specifically illegal, for all practical purposes, it has been.

The 1989 ban eliminated it's use across many industries. Naturally, by the time is was overturned in 1991, the changes had already been made. Needless to say, nobody that had stopped using it, was about to tempt fate and go back.

Your list also fails to mention the laws that exist in individual states, which can be much more stringent than existing federal law. Are all of those things legal in CA? I doubt it.

Here is a copy of the EPA clarification from 1999. It's lists the sources of possible confusion over what is banned and what isn't, including the government's own publications, (go figure).

http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pdf/frl-3476-2.pdf

I'd be willing to bet that most members on this site remember the 1989 ban, but not the 1991 court case that overturned it. Maybe something to consider before you choose to insult the rest of the members here. Lost EPA court cases usually don't make the front page.

To add to the confusion, there are other products that are banned by the CPSC, which initiated action as early as 1977.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/1977/Asbestos-Ban-Proposed/

It's interesting to note, that the ban on asbestos was fought by both government officials, and their buddies in business that helped get them to Washington.

I have been looking for asbestos rope type gasket material for my wood stove off and on for about a year. I can't find anyone that carries it; not even for industrial boilers.

If you know of anyone that carries it, could you link it for me? Thanks.

The distortions in your post are egregious and dangerous. I assume most are intentional distortions, although I can't see why your dislike of me and supporters of the EPA should be used to put auto mechanics and industrial workers at risk. If anyone acts on your glib assertion that these products have been eliminated, (and, for example, stop taking precautions against brake dust) they could suffer serious health consequences.

There are times when spreading disinformation is unwise and unsafe. I am asking that CR4 remove your post because it has many safety-critical distortions in it. Global Spec should not be put in the position of appearing to treat asbestos exposure lightly and spreading egregious lies about the regulations and their effects.

1. You wrote: I think the reason you are so upset with all of the ignorant people, is that there is a general assumption that it has been banned, and while not specifically illegal, for all practical purposes, it has been.

That is completely untrue. Asbestos has not been "for all practical purposes" banned. Nothing on the "list of legal uses" I provided is currently banned in the US.

2. You wrote: The 1989 ban eliminated it's use across many industries. Naturally, by the time is was overturned in 1991, the changes had already been made.

This has no basis in fact, whatsoever. Were it not for the 1991 revision, the ban would have been phased in with a ban of the following materials to occur not until August 26, 1996:

A/C Pipe

Commercial Paper

Corrugated Paper

Roll board

Millboard

A/C Shingle

Specialty Paper

Roof Coatings

Non-Roof Coatings

Brake Blocks

Drum Brake Linings [Aftermarket (AM)]

Disc Brake Pads, LMV (AM)

Disc Brake Pads, HV (AM).

But the ban of many of these never occurred. Rollboard, corrugated, commercial, or specialty paper were the things banned in 1996 as a result of the 1991 ruling and revisions. Brake linings, etc have never been banned by the EPA, because the revision took place before 1996.

3. You wrote: Your list also fails to mention the laws that exist in individual states, which can be much more stringent than existing federal law. Are all of those things legal in CA? I doubt it.

Doubt and imagine all you want, but you are again completely wrong. Only recently have California and Washington begun a phased-in ban on brake pads. See this link: http://www.ecy.wa.gov/programs/hwtr/betterbrakes.html

For Washington:

• The Brake pads and shoes manufactured after January 1, 2015, must not contain asbestos, hexavalent chromium, mercury, cadmium, or lead. Auto shops and other distributors of brakes will be able to sell any existing inventory for ten years.

Even in those states, mechanics should be careful for at least the next ten years plus many more (a new set from 2023 might be replaced in 2028, etc.) But in other states, it is anybody's guess when asbestos will be banned.

A bunch of Chinese cars had to be recalled recently in Australia (where standards are tighter than here) due to asbestos concerns. Here, where much of our supplies of AM brakes is from China, we can expect them to contain asbestos.

4. You wrote: Here is a copy of the EPA clarification from 1999. It's lists the sources of possible confusion over what is banned and what isn't, including the government's own publications, (go figure).

http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/pdf/frl-3476-2.pdf

This is a flat lie. This is from 1989, and is the law that was never effectively implemented.

5. You wrote: I'd be willing to bet that most members on this site remember the 1989 ban, but not the 1991 court case that overturned it. Maybe something to consider before you choose to insult the rest of the members here.

This is completely illogical. You, not I, are insulting the members, claiming that they are as clueless as you. Any member who has had exposure to the issues and EPA regs would be more likely remember the 1991 revision, which was better publicized than the original law... because it is the sort of thing that makes people angry about good protections swept aside by industry lobbyists. I have never met a safety manager who did not know of the overturn.

6. You wrote: To add to the confusion, there are other products that are banned by the CPSC, which initiated action as early as 1977.

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Newsroom/News-Releases/1977/Asbestos-Ban-Proposed/

There is no need to add confusion. You've done enough. Brake pads are not covered by the CPSC.

Why do you think I don't like you?

Quite the opposite. You're one of the regulars that keeps this place interesting.

If my post contains lies, they are contained within the government links.

I suppose my post can be removed, but please realize, there is nothing in there to suggest that asbestos is safe. Furthermore, by requesting it's removal, would be to say that every other member on this site is too dumb to realize that breathing asbestos is bad. I really don't think that's the case. Asbestos or not, breathing brake dust is a bad idea; I'm pretty sure our fellow members are aware of that.

I was surprised to find out that brake pads still contain asbestos. I do my own brake jobs, and it seems like about 15 years that the replacements are specifically marked "asbestos free". Although, I never saw that as an invitation to inhale the dust.

I don't feel like getting into a point by point spitting contest with you.

For the people, (like me), that thought there was at least a de facto ban on asbestos, due to EPA rules, OSHA rules, and suit happy lawyers, you have shown us otherwise. Good job.

Before any of our members goes and does something stupid, I should join your effort and point out, that even if something is banned, it does not mean that it is magically eliminated. A ban takes place the day it is implemented; that means that everything that was made before the ban, is still out in circulation. In the case of asbestos, be aware of old roofing, plaster, the hard outdoor shake siding......... anyway, it's all over the place. Just do what I do, and if you're tearing into things that create dust, treat it all as if it contains asbestos.

If anyone has already poisoned themselves, based on my last post or the links it contains; I'm sorry.

I should add, that aside from asbestos, there are many other common things that should not be inhaled:

Water- This one tops the list. Very few people live to talk about it.

All solvents- Nasty and dangerous.

Dried vermin droppings- They can contain deadly biological pathogens, and should not be inhaled.

Household cleaning products- Just say no.

Pretty much any kind of dust.

A pretty good motto would be, "If ain't fresh air, it's time to beware".

This has been a public service message from kramafry

Asbestos is in a different category from all the other things you've mentioned.

We all inhale water all the time. For me, if relative humidity gets below 50%, much of my respiratory system hurts.

Even when water is inhaled in liquid form, many people live to tell the story.

Many solvents are nowhere near as dangerous as asbestos, and many are so obnoxious smelling that you flee the room before any permanent harm is done, or put on a VOC mask. The harmful asbestos fibers are odorless, tasteless, and invisible (the visible ones come back out of the lungs) so unlike with solvents, there is no natural bodily reaction to warn you.

Because too many people think of asbestos dust as "just dust" they make the mistake of thinking that a nuisance dust mask will help. These are essentially useless against the fiber sizes that are most harmful.

I was being a little tongue in cheek.

Lung cancer is the #1 killer in the US, which is why I keep repeating to avoid breathing any foreign matter. I think mesothelioma was identified, because we had so many people working in the shipyards, etc., that later developed the disease, that it was fairly easy to track back. But I don't think anyone should assume that only smoking and asbestos cause lung cancer. It just means that other possible agents haven't been identified.

http://lungcancer.about.com/od/whatislungcancer/a/lungcancerstats.htm

Fortunately, mesothelioma is fairly rare. Although it still sucks if you are one of the 3000, which you or I could become any day, due to our exposure.

http://www.cancer.org/cancer/malignantmesothelioma/overviewguide/malignant-mesothelioma-overview-key-statistics

As far as banning things goes, I think common sense is in order. There are applications where the "dangerous" stuff happens to work the best. In the case of asbestos gaskets, I can't imagine that we can't come up with something to impregnate it with, to keep it from becoming airborn.

I also think that people outside of engineering and industry, tend to get a false sense of security with bans. They think that a ban means that everything is safe and they don't have to worry; in the case of asbestos, it could kill them. The stuff is all over the place.......still.

Wow! You squawk like you got your *** caught in a wringer.

Just one example: whether banned or not, to my knowledge asbestos is not used in brake pads or clutch discs currently and hasn't been for many years.

Wow! You squawk like you got your *** caught in a wringer.

You're right. I admit to being passionate about the issue, having worked with ultra heavy asbestos exposure just before college, and having spent a few decades in the Environmental Safety and Health arena. Upon my chest Xray in 2010, my likelihood of dying from mesothelioma went from about 1/1,000,000 to 1/10. My father-in-law died of meso at my current age, and I have several friends who have recently died from the same cause.

Just one example: whether banned or not, to my knowledge asbestos is not used in brake pads or clutch discs currently and hasn't been for many years.

You illustrate my point: many people do not know the status of asbestos regulations in the US. Can you imagine why Washington and California have recently banned asbestos in brake shoes*? Because the EPA does not. The EPA only bans certain asbestos containing products, because of the overturning of the original 1989 ban in 1991.

Canada just stopped mining and exporting asbestos, and India and China continue to use it in many products, having essentially no regulations against it. As a result, brake pads made in China are likely to have asbestos, and there is nothing that keeps these from being imported into the US. Australia, with more effective regulation than we have in the US, recalled the Chinese cars that showed recently up with asbestos.

* Even the WA and CA laws allow for 10 year sell-offs of existing stocks. The WA law does not require stoppage of production until 2015.

Asbestos rope. I'm sure I have seen ads somewhere, maybe the antique vehicle suppliers. Might have been ceramic or Kevlar.

Curiosity got to me, so I looked in my old Restoration Supply catalog, and they have ceramic rope, 3/8" diameter before stretching, 2 kinds of ceramic tape, and muffler wrap. Others might have something too; Olson's specializes in gaskets, so might have muffler stuff since some old exhaust systems were wrapped in asbestos rope.

Restoration Supply Co is at 800-306-7008 or www.RestorationStuff.com.

Thanks.

I called an industrial supply place near me, and the woman told me that asbestos had been completely phased out. The ceramic stuff works okay, but not nearly as well as asbestos.

We actually ended up talking for about a 1/2 hour, and she told me about the frustration in industry, with having to do frequent change-outs of failed, non-asbestos, gasket material.

I'm going to tear down my woodstove this spring and put in some of the ceramic stuff. I'm hoping it doesn't have to be done too frequently, since I will be subjected to wood ash and fiberglass rope that turns to dust the second you touch it. Naturally, I will use water as a wetting agent as I'm going; which, by the way, is an excellent choice when dealing with anything thought to contain asbestos. A garden hose or even a pump type sprayer are great choices.

I've seen some episodes of 'This Old House' and the Canadian show 'Holmes on Homes' where home repairs are complicated by asbestos materials that have to be removed. The levels of precautions they take are awesome. They hire special contractors who completely isolate the area, they wear full body 'space suits', they use a constant spray of water to keep the asbestos dust from floating around and they bag and seal all of the affected materials and take them to a special dump for hazardous materials. I don't know what that procedure costs, but it's got to be pretty expensive - though cheaper than having to deal with cancer, I'm sure.

On the other hand, they also point out that it's ok to leave asbestos materials in place if they don't have to be disturbed. That's good to know.

A long time ago I owned a old house with asbestos-cement shingle siding. It had gotten some water stains on it from a sprinkler system. At first I thought I'd use a wire brush to remove the stains. Luckily, as it turned out, the stains were very difficult to remove so I ended up just painting the siding. If I'd actually tried to remove all the water stains with a wire brush I might have inadvertently scraped asbestos into the air and inhaled it.

This is an interesting article that illustrates how scare mongering, rather than common sense, is used to create fear and subsequent regulations.

http://spiderjohnson.com/asbestos.html

While there is genuine risk associated with asbestos, it is easily mitigated with proper handling. The remediation craze that was pushed through on public buildings and schools, turned out to be a dangerous farce. After countless workers were exposed, and hundreds of millions of dollars spent, it was found that it would have been better to leave the encapsulated asbestos alone.

Over the years I have realized a couple of things...

No amount of laws, regulations or bans will ever stop stupid people from doing stupid things, or bad people from doing bad things.

There are two phrases that I wish I would never hear again:

If just one life is saved, it will be worth it and we must act.

and

It is for the greater good.

Your article is annoying because it has statements but no links.

Yes, the asbestos scare was overdone but it took place over time. The link between asbestos and mesothelioma was established. The fact that asbestos was used in schools was noted. As an engineer, I realized that only by breathing it could get into the lungs, but I also knew that there were contractors making repairs modifications to the schools and probably leaving asbestos dust about the place almost every summer⁽¹⁾. I also knew from experience that more research would probably show that the situation was not as bad as it seemed. The key word is "probably", and since I had children in school I was not about to rely on it.

"There are two phrases that I wish I would never hear again:

If just one life is saved, it will be worth it and we must act."

That objective view is all very fine, but when you or yours are the ones under the apparent risk, you go with the subjective view. I did not want one of my daughters to be the one who was not saved so you can keep your objective view.

(1) They did leave dust on ceilings and hidden surfaces, they only swept/vacuumed up the visible debris.

The post was intended to illustrate media complicity in government fear mongering.

This is a fairly well written piece on abatement:

http://fumento.com/asbestos/asbest.html

I think that the concern over the presence of asbestos in our schools was justified, however, the resulting panic and abatement programs turned out to be incredibly stupid. Encapsulation would have been the best course, in nearly all instances.

Despite wearing protective gear, and after spending billions of dollars on removal, the abatement workers that physically performed the mandated removal, are now coming down with asbestos related illness.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2458/12/665

http://www.nofluoride.com/asbestos.cfm

I have a friend that has made a very nice living from doing asbestos abatement jobs, as a project manager/estimator, and even as he's been doing the work, over the years he has repeatedly acknowledged the utter stupidity of having to dig through muliple layers of paint to reach the asbestos and remove it from the schools.

I think almost all of your "legal" list has been eliminated. Several years ago I had trouble finding some non-asbestos high temperature gasket material to line an exhaust shield. It ended up that my son had some. Kevlar is used for clutches and brakes I think, and maybe other stuff.

When I was in college I worked installing insulation, and later as an engineer I worked with fiber glass manufacturing, so naturally I was interested in what danger I had put myself in. I have never heard of any respiratory issues related to fiber glass beyond the temporary irritation.

I think silicosis is from breathing silica dust, which is not the same thing.

Hi Ken,

basically you are fully correct in your comments, we see that by the level of some posts here on CR4 where some appear to be day dreaming while posting.

No they don't know who they are - sadly. But there are more than a few.....

I researched and found that at least 55 countries have completely banned asbestos in any car components (which has angered certain Chinese car component manufacturers!!). All of the European Union for example plus others. Whether the USA is also there in the 55 I could not be certain.....but it should be if its not!!!

See here for example:-

australia-recalls-23-000-chinese-made-cars-over-asbestos.html

Its dangerous stuff at the best of times......

I suppose I am a day dreamer Andy. You see, I still like to think that individuals are capable of using their brains to make informed decisions, without being dictated to. I also think that government has a role to play when it comes to getting out the word on the inherent dangers that come with certain jobs.

Welding without eye protection causes blindness. This is well known, but I can guarantee you that a percentage of people decide to try it and suffer the consequences. I don't think this would constitute a ban on welding.

Personally, I think that many of these laws, rules and bans end up having the complete opposite of the intended effect, and give people a false sense of complacency in the workplace.

On the other extreme, I'm constantly dealing with people that have an irrational fear of lead based paint.

I typically treat it with a waterbased primer that sticks without sanding, followed by two coats of acrylic paint....and people still worry about their kids.

I tell them, if you've got a kid that is left alone to chew through three coats of paint, and this is happening on a regular basis; you don't have a lead problem, you are just a crappy parent. Maybe you should consider taking some classes.

I got lead poisoning at 2 years old (1948) with lead based paint on a window frame. I shit blue turds for a long time......UGH!!

It is also too dangerous to have around children at least, also, at a later date someone might try and remove the paint with heat and poison themselves at the same time, just because the lead was covered up......

Sorry, but to me asbestos and lead paint should not be part of a modern world, amongst other things still not mentioned here....

A cousin of mine lost her husband when he was about 52 due to asbestos, he had worked, in a company that used it, part time when he was a schoolboy.......

There's a good reason that lead was removed from paint. I'm not denying it. But again, in most cases, encapsulation will work just fine. Lead paint is bad, the fact that it tastes sweet is really bad. In residential situations with small kids, it's important to get it covered up with yucky tasting paint.

If you must pick up a blue turd, remember to pick it up by the clean end.

If that would have been me, in between blue turds, I would have been getting my ass beat for messing up the window sill.

LOL!!!

Asbestos means striated rock. There are numerous types of asbestos. A few of them have useful purposes. There are several types of disease. You are mixing up the diseases, symptoms and types of asbestos and coming up with nonsense. Perhaps you should study the subject before you try to teach it.

What you are all missing is: Asbestos is NOT a mineral. It is a mineral form and many minerals are asbestosform. Some are extremely bad for human health. others are benign. However, the non-benign asbestosform minerals are the most commonly mined and used.

I''m pretty sure Asbestos and Asbestiform described exclusively silicate minerals.

.

AFAIK, All Asbestos and Asbestiform minerals contain Si₈O₂₂ silicate groups, with the exception of Chrysotile which contain Si₂O₅ silicate groups.

.

I don't think you should assume any Asbestos or Asbestiform mineral that is not encapsulated is safe.

.

Please educate me if there are benign forms. AFAIK Chrysotile is the most commonly mined and used, and as you said it is not benign.

This does not seem to bear any relation to the OP to which you responded.

It is good illustration of misinformation, however:

Asbestos means striated rock.

That is not at all what it means. First asbestos is not a rock. Asbestos (the word used in its industrial usage, as used in the OP) is a mineral. Its crystal habit is generally asbestiform. Striated rocks and minerals are not of the same appearance, and virtually all rocks and minerals that are described as "striated" are not asbestos.

Geologists do not consider "asbestos" a mineral, but instead a group of minerals which are asbestiform. However, for health concerns, the distinction makes little difference. It is the physical shape and size of asbestos fiber fragments that cause most of the diseases associated with asbestos exposure, and all the common forms of asbestos show up in these shapes and sizes.

Perhaps you should study the subject before you try to teach it.

Your post seems to be directed at the OP, but does not make sense in that light. In fact, I have studied ESH issues extensively as part of 20 years in the field and as part of attaining a MESH certificate from NCSU. But this is somewhat beside the point. The post is only about a common misconception re asbestos: many people, incorrectly, think that all asbestos-containing products are banned by the EPA. As far as I know, if I have made any health claims, they related directly to my own situation and not to any symptoms and specific diseases.

Is there something specific you had in mind?

Personally, I don't think any airborne particulates should be considered to be benign.

Whether it's sawdust, silo dust, silica, or asbestos, foreign matter shouldn't be breathed into the lungs.

Amen

I agree that people are very uninformed regarding asbestos. We all know that it's not a smart thing to breathe in asbestos fibers, however I believe it is nearly impossible to avoid it. And even if we breathe in asbestos, how much damage have we caused? The anti-asbestos side has scared people, to the point they are afraid to have asbestos in their house, work and school.

Someone posted that undisturbed asbestos is of little to no risk, which logically makes sense. I think the general public doesn't understand this, as they lack the ability to think things through on a scientific basis. Add to this the fear created by the media and the average person simply wants all asbestos to be removed from their life, no matter the cost.

Here in California, many builders used "popcorn" on the ceiling of homes. The older material was made of asbestos and people feared for their lives - remove it at any cost!

Also, a friend of mine had to have an asbestos heater flue removed, because the insulation contractor refused to work near it. A hazardous waste team took the pipe out and my friend has to pay for the safe storage of the pipe forever.

I think we've gone too far and have created too much of a scare. Sure, we need to be aware of the potential danger, but I think they anti-asbestos people have overdone it.

Someone posted that undisturbed asbestos is of little to no risk, which logically makes sense. I think the general public doesn't understand this, as they lack the ability to think things through on a scientific basis. Add to this the fear created by the media and the average person simply wants all asbestos to be removed from their life, no matter the cost.

I think we've gone too far and have created too much of a scare. Sure, we need to be aware of the potential danger, but I think they anti-asbestos people have overdone it.

I agree. If it is not friable and is encapsulated, it should be OK to leave it. If it is disturbed in the future, protection would be needed at that time.

This thread got me flashing back to the Navy days.

Shoot, as part of our regular job, we used to have to repack steam valves, replace gaskets, etc.

After the repair was made, we would custom cut asbestos cloth with scissors, pull a piece of fluffy white asbestos off a roll, attach the edges of the cloth together, stuff it like a pillow, with the fluffy stuff, and rewrap the valve or flange with the insulation.

I have no idea how often we did it. A lot.

I wonder what became of the "radon" scare?

Radon is still busy injuring people.

It is tobacco's affinity for Radon and the presence of Radon and its decay products in phosphate fertilizers that leads to the lesions in smoker's lungs being contaminated with alpha emitters.....

That's a pretty bad place to have a sprinkling of Polonium 210, especially if your lungs have significant damage from other factors too.

The danger exists when people, like DIY home owners come across the stuff and don't recognize it or just plain ignore it. I bet that most people don't know the danger of asbestos. I have often assumed that everyone knew about something only to find out later, that it wasn't common knowledge. People still use unvented heaters in their houses and die from the fumes.