Cut Car Crashes with a Sawsall

1. The ones concerned have to read your post!

2. Grandma rarly ever took a Sawsall out: first of all she had none, second of all she never knew she had too, third even if she would not have known how to go about it!

3. I believe your question could read:

Is my assessment correct and why has the car industry not responded to that one yet?

The problem isn't big feet, it's old age....

"Brief Submission Description:

Every other day in the US, a car accident occurs where a senior citizen driver confuses the accelerator pedal with the brake pedal. This confusion results in cars driven through store fronts, plowed through people, and numerous accidents in parking lots. In one profound and tragic accident occurred in Santa Monica, CA in 2003, a driver age 89 plowed his car through a farmers market, killing 10 people and injuring 70 others. Our team has conceived the SS-BRAKE System to address this growing concern. Our invention includes a steering wheel-based body vitals monitor, tactile/vibrating feedback seat pad, wireless wrist monitor and a (dash) mountable panic stop button. Driver vitals are monitored and integrated into a car computer to assist in moderating the speed, acceleration and braking capabilities.. A feedback system is employed to assist in driver decision making if vitals are out of range. We had consulted with a geriatric cardiologist and insurance professionals on our idea.- See more at: http://fllinnovation.firstlegoleague.org/ss-brake#sthash.Qk32J67y.dpuf

I am nearly 67, up to now no problems, but we all should be prepared to take the driving test say every 2 years from say 65 and a health check. I don't want to kill or injure anyone.....awful.....

Maybe a metal "wall" should be mounted between the brake and accelerator pedals......as the problem described could happen to anyone of almost any age....

Also, maybe the accelerator pedal should be lower than the brake, not the other way round as on many cars.....

The problem isn't big feet, it's old age.... I'm in trouble, I have both big feet and old age:-) Seriously, some conditions result in numbness in the feet that seems likely to be the cause of these accidents.

I have to agree with OP's observation since it has happened to me in various vehicles, fortunately my reactions were quick enough and I just moved my foot over to the left a bit more. Each of the times occurred when I was wearing footwear that was wider than my usual pairs, things like extra wide sneakers, work or hiking boots, etc., especially in a vehicle that was sufficiently different than my Jeep.

Apparently there is no federal standard for something as obvious as the minimum spacing between the edges of the accelerator, brake and clutch! A quick (?) read of

49 C.F.R. PART 571-FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS

shows that this critical dimension is not even mentioned, instead the manufacturers are being encouraged to design a brake/accelerator interlock system that will sense their simultaneous application. Obviously our lawmakers think that the problem can be engineered away instead of using some common sense (and cheaper) solution.

"Obviously our lawmakers think that the problem can be engineered away instead of using some common sense (and cheaper) solution."

Common sense and cheaper are hallmarks of a good engineering solution. The trouble is our lawmakers tend to be educated as lawyers and so, by training, are not capable of considering either common sense or cheaper.

One of the worst situations that may still exist; I hope not; is when people drive an automatic with both feet, one on the brake and the other on the accelerator. Picking the right or left foot in an emergency can easily result in a crash.

Or you could learn heel & toe driving.

I'm just going to toss this out there...

If you modify in this manner a safety mechanism of the car, and you are in some sort of crash, will the insurance company praise the modification or will this modification give them grounds to disallow the claim?

Now, when the driver lifts off the throttle, moves the ball of the foot slightly (not far enough) to the left to apply the brake and then pushes down, his foot will miss the brake and hit the throttle instead. Before, the same movement would put part of his foot over the right edge of the brake pedal.

I can't see that this modification is anything but bad. Too many people, especially women in high heels, are in the habit of using only the very far right edge of the brake pedal. Eliminating that part of the pedal makes the likelihood of hitting the accelerator instead of brake higher, not lower.

The wide brake pedal on an automatic transmission car is there to make it easier to hit the brakes.

Reply to K Fry:

After I cut the brake pedal (several months ago), I have had NO further problems with the foot controls.

Going from gas to brake and back after the modification was immediately natural-feeling and without any noticeable difference while driving.

The only change was that I never again had the lurching-forward-while-braking experience.

Cutting off part of the brake pedal to prevent accidentally depressing the accelerator during braking has been a quick, easy, reliable, and safe fix for a potentially deadly problem.

bandership

I had to give you a GA.

You thought the problem through, made the changes needed and tested it in an everyday environment.....well done and thanks from me personally.

Cutting off part of the brake pedal to prevent accidentally depressing the accelerator during braking has been a quick, easy, reliable, and safe fix for a potentially deadly problem.

However your modification does not prevent the accelerator from being depressed. Given the same foot positioning, the accelerator alone would be depressed when the brake and accelerator were depressed prior to modification. (In the drawings below, the foot is in the same position relative to the floor and accelerator pedal.) Brakes always can overcome the accelerator, (as convincingly demonstrated in the video on this page) and it is better to have some braking effect rather than none.

(BEFORE on left, AFTER on right)

So if you are no longer hitting the accelerator, then you have learned to move your foot further to the left to avoid hitting the accelerator, the position of which has not changed.

If you assume that a person cannot learn to drive correctly (failing to learn to place the foot close to the centerline of the brake pedal when trying to brake) the outcome becomes one of probabilities (based on the ratio of areas of the pedals). In that case, it is safer to have more brake pedal area, because the randomly placed foot will hit it more often.

If on the other hand, the driver learns to drive the particular car correctly, none of this is an issue. That is part of the reason that there is no federal standard for brake pedal width and pedal spacing. Even pedal height is not standardized. It is easy to make the argument that if the brake pedal is significantly higher, then it is depressed significantly before contact could be made with the accelerator (when the foot is incorrectly positioned too far to the right).

Your modification by itself, does not make a person's foot magically move further to the left to avoid the accelerator when attempting to brake. (Feet are not equipped with either vision or proximity detectors.) The person driving has to learn to move the foot further to the left. In the process of doing your modification (or in the first tries afterward, which would have been more deliberate than usual) perhaps some of that learning occurred. If a woman with small feet got into your van, chances are that she would be more likely to miss the brake pedal and hit the accelerator, until she learned that the brake is now further to the left. Many people leave the heel of the foot on the floor and pivot the toe leftward to reach the brake. This means that the ball of a small foot move less to the left for a given angular change, than that of a large foot.

In any case, I'm glad you are not experiencing unintended acceleration any more.

And, at some point it is possible to get your foot stuck between the pedals if there is too much space.

I thought the reason the brake pedal in automatics was wider was so you could use both feet. It's always fun trying to depress the "clutch" in and automatic....

That's the reason that most modern cars have the accelerator pedal about 40mm further down toward the firewall than the brake pedal. I noted this when I was changing the accelerator pedal in my project car and checked a few cars before positioning it.

In the 80's when Audi had their problem with "unintended acceleration" they did just that. They changed the distance between the brake and throttle pedals to a less heel-toe friendly width. Of course, with an automatic trans you don't need to blip the throttle to down shift.

IMHO nothing can be done to completely stop this from happening and efforts to build in automatic corrective action will only make something else worse. There will always be people who reach an age when they should not drive, before they stop driving. Drivers of any age will make mistakes they cannot recover from before impact. Nothing you can integrate into the car control system will stop that. However, you can increase the complexity of the system to the point that something unforeseen is guaranteed to go wrong

While old age in some people can contribute, I think it is most reprehensible to address older people as if they were some other genus- I am 86 and will be resuming my auto racing career this year- while the youngers like to say older lose skill, with some exceptions most olders tend to be slower and more careful- so even if involved, the damage to them, to others, and the car is lesser- statistically anything can be put forward- with or without truth, but reckless is found in younger, and mid ages based on personality, and perhaps lapses in older- but please do not generalize so on your elders- most older drivers are careful and capable

Although many very elderly drivers may be great drivers, it is a biological fact that reflexes diminish with age and political correctness cannot be a reason to overlook this. Sometimes driving too slowly can be just as dangerous as speeding. There are also drivers with poor coordination at any age. IMHO, the problem is that a once a driver's license is acquired in the U.S., there is no field testing of the driver again and licenses are simply renewed. I think that more rigorous field testing, (ie: with an obstacle course), both initially and subsequent to issuing a driver's license is the answer to eliminating dangerous drivers, period.

Reply to specifier:

While I agree that the decrease in driving ability with age is a safety factor which should be addressed, in my experience (I am 71) the primary cause of motor vehicle collisions is impatience, with inattention a close second (made much worse by texting these days).

Both of these factors can be exacerbated by alcohol and/or severe driving conditions.

However, car design factors can and should be examined too, as in the case of brake /accelerator spacing.

Another major problem is dashboard design. The sales people seem to favor "pretty" pushbutton rows and columns with functions printed on them with little icons or even words requiring operators to examine the nomenclature to operate the controls creating a severe inattention situation.

I would like to see the controls arranged by position and style so they could be easily found by touch only.

Years ago and far away I trained on a piece of airborne military electronics whose control panel featured knobs which each had a different shape. What a concept, and it worked wonderfully well!

bandership

While the re exam is a pain, here in Ontario, Canada we are required to attend a drivers session every two years, pass eye tests and an exam as soon as you reach 80. While I am not excusing all elder drivers (try driving in Florida) I do resent being classified as incompetent or dangerous- I am comfortable feeling that my reflexes and attention span is durn good (I can still pass the dropped Dollar test) and a heck of a lot better than some teens and many ladies.

I feel (as I am also elderly too) that you are approaching this from the wrong angle completely....

You are doing the right thing in taking the tests of course as you should. But of course once you (or I) fail them, we have to stop driving.....its as simple as that!

So why waste energy and thought "resenting" anything? What does it do to improve the equation? Answer = Nothing at all!!! It may even make your blood pressure even higher......

We are probably not the best persons to decide on our abilities in this area, don't you agree?

I believe the UK (verification required Guys please), sets a far lower age than where you come under scrutiny in your country. Some other countries too, quite right.

Whether that is good or bad depends upon your point of view, I personally find it to be better......I see too many doddery 80 year olds than is safe.....

Germany appears to wait until you cause an accident (far too late to my mind!). It happens almost daily here......

I still drive all over middle and western Europe, picking up and delivering cars.

I have experienced no self made crashes ever......though I have been run into by both young and old (as well as middle) aged people at least a dozen times in many years of driving (50 legal years! Plus a few "illegal" years as I was 5 ft 11 ins tall at 10 years old, drinking in Pubs at 14, though the beer taste was no truly acquired till some years later!) all around this world (on both left and right hand drive roads, in both left and Right hand vehicles, totally mixed up!).....

I really do not find any higher blood pressure- what I am trying to say is it is wise to ensure all drivers are competent, not only the elderly, and if scheduling tests is the answer -so be it- if you cannot cut it- quit-it is your life at risk also. However in spite of your opinion I do not feel it is fair to issue a blanket statement that all drivers over 70 are at risk- let us judge each person on their merits- and if we do that the failure rate will drop below 70 years- generalization is always the route of the pressure groups.

I am driving an Audi from the question period- (stick shift) and have never come near having a problem-driving is not a right - it is an earned skill- so lets push in the direction of correcting the problems, both human and mechanical.

Please show us where your "blanket statement" is published, I personally have never seen or heard of one, but I could be wrong.....so show us please?

As of two days ago here in Canada a court ruling was made that insurance companies could charge more for drivers over 80- This is enough of a blanket statement for me- anyway I meant that to be covering many of the statements issued by some proponents of Older drivers being incapable- - I am not nit picking to a formal statement release in the media

I don't know of another country that has done that (I could be wrong, please correct me if you know different!).

You have two choices, get the law repealed or move to another country......

You forget that we are here very international, I don't know how many here are from Canada, but certainly its a minority......like Germany......

I was shocked to hear it also- I do not think it is yet a law as it probably was a lower court- I am quote sure when more people hear about it there will be a firestorm-it was a low key news item.

In Canada we can be just as silly as elsewhere but we truly do not have a lot of senior drivers getting into trouble or store fronts- Remember Paul Newman was still racing sports cars in his 80's

Be reasonable, I am sure in every country in the world there is a few "Paul Newmans" around, but thousands (millions?) of less able Octagenerians (spelling questionable, sorry!).....

One has to take the statistics as they are, not as we might wish they are......

I am sure that nobody here, or in most reasonable positions of authority, will hold something against a fit and tested 80 year old that still wants to drive.....

In the US, insurers are regulated at the state level, and in most states rates differ according to age and gender, but also individual driving record. Rates are high for anyone under 25 and astronomical for male teens. Rates again go up with advancing age (typically 70 plus), but are tempered with driving record. It is based on statistical risk, and is not found to be discriminatory in the US. The same is true for life insurance, health insurance, business insurance: you pay according to your actuarial risk.

I didnt think much of this situation until it happened to me. I replaced my floor mats with rubber mats for winter. I live in Colorado and it snows and gets muddy. After a while the mat moved forward and eventually caught the gas pedal and made it stick. My car kept accelarating and would not stop. It took a moment for me to figure out why. I did not have an accident or anything but it scared me. After that I paid more attention to the floor mats in my car. I move them back when I get in. Just incase you ask I dont think I have big feet ha ha

In 1974 I was working in the family health food store. An elderly gentleman experienced this problem but for a different reason. He pushed the D button instead of the P on his 1956 Dodge. Turned our single door store into a double.

I have size 14 feet. My problem is getting my right foot above the edge of the brake pedal. If I don't take care to lift completely I can foul the bottom of the brake pedal in a car with that wide automatic transmission brake pedal. Has nothing to do with confusion, everything to do with available space, and of course it geys worse in situations where I need that darn pedal in a hurry.

Reply to bluebelly:

It is my view that the design/adjustment of machines should accommodate their human users, not the other way around.

Perhaps you could measure the distance between the brake pedal and the floor pan when depressing the brake as hard as you can and then look for ways to lower the brake pedal to give more clearance for your foot.

If it is your car, maybe you could reshape the brake pedal as I did.

bandership

At present, my 'car' is a Toyota pickup with a manual trans so it's not too bad. If I buy an automatic I probably will.

I'm an auto broker and I drive most models of new cars. Some are well engineered ergonomically, while others are a disaster. The position of the brake and accelerator pedals is a case in point. BMW and Porsche do a great job with the spacing and location of the pedals, while Hyundai does a poor job and the last generation Ford Focus was horrible. I delivered a BMW M3 with a stick and the pedals were spaced just right and had the right pedal height to do heel toe driving (real heel toe to control the accelerator and brake with the right foot and clutch with the left). Ditto for the Porsche 911 I owned - what a car that was! I just delivered a Hyundai Sonata and was disappointed in the ergonomics of the car, particularly the placement and feel of the pedals. A few years ago, we took a trip up and down the East Coast and the pedals on the Ford Focus rental car were both offset to the right, so when driving the car, I sat facing a little to the right (not straight ahead) - it didn't help that the steering wheel was offset to the right also.

Toyota brought out the Smart Stop technology in I believe 2011. This was in response to the unintended acceleration problem with Toyota cars. The Smart Stop technology is microprocessor controlled acceleration (drive by wire) that is overridden by simultaneous braking. If both pedals are pressed at the same time, the pushing of the brake pedal overrides the pushing of the gas pedal - the car will not surge forward. The NHTSA found Toyota innocent of the unintended acceleration claim, however the damage was done and the Toyota name was tarnished. Unlike the Audi UI back in the mid 80's (Audi was also found not guilty), Audi's name was also tarnished, so much that they nearly stopped importing cars to the US. The Audi problem did give us the shift lockout we have on cars today. The Toyota UI has given us Smart Stop technology in some cars and it should be an industry wide safety mandate.

Reply to Autobroker:

I well remember the Toyota problem. The 911 call from the driver just before he and his family ran out of Interstate and all died was unforgettable. I also remember how Toyota was not forthcoming with information about their electronic codes so investigators could find the truth of the matter.

That "cover your ass" attitude at the expense of my safety is what stopped me from ever having a Toyota again.

bandership

Bandership, Toyota was found innocent. It has nothing to do with CYA. They had redundant systems and they were pretty sure it wasn't a problem with the car.

Could it have been a sticking gas pedal? Probably not. Stuck floor mats? Maybe. I guess the question to ask is simply, did the recall of millions of Toyota cars solve the problem, or was it simply driver error - or in some cases, people trying to make a buck?

The question I ask myself on this - If my car were speeding out of control (and still accelerating), what would I do? Probably feel for a sticking gas pedal first. If that wasn't it, I would simply drop the tranny into neutral or a lower gear and use my brakes. Last thing I would do is shut the engine off, since the power in the brakes would go out and I'd lose the power in the steering.

The question we should all be focusing on is why on earth would you choose to make a 911 phone call before doing things to stop the car? Was this person so non-mechanical that he couldn't think of finding a way to stop the car?

One of the biggest problems is that people are licensed to drive when they can prove that they can control the vehicle in normal conditions. There is no training for that disaster that we all hope never happens. I learned to drive on a 20 year old '46 Plymouth that was an education in disaster control ALL the time, fortunately, without hitting any thing or person. Since then, I've tried to disaster proof several people who had already learned the basics. Usually with a fair amount of success. Dealing with a vehicle that had lost speed control was part of it. More drivers need that sort of training, without it look at our highway system every time we gat a little snow. NYC and Washington instantly shut down because too many people either don't know how to drive in it, or their vehicles aren't properly equipped, or both. It's not rocket science, but unless you're taught skid control driving on wet, oily or snowy roads can be difficult.

Yeah, my 911 has drive by wire accelerator and if you press the accelerator and brake at the same time the computer overrides the throttle after a short period of time.

It is a compromise so you can still heel and toe, but can not do both for prolonged times if moderate or greater pressure is applied to the brake.

In racing this can be a problem because long straight sections of track let the brakes cool down too much, so drivers lightly press the brake pedal before the turn to heat up the pads so that they have maximum grip when they finally use them upon turn entry.

Incidentally, Porsches earlier than 1999 had a slight offset to both the steering wheel and the pedals. The 996 corrected that quirk and they also reversed the clutch and brake pedals in the way that they arc when pressed.

They used to arc downward like a VW Beetle, but are now suspended from above like most cars.

Having driven both pre and post 1999 cars extensively I can tell you that you quickly adapt to the subtleties. Many people do not even notice the offset on the older cars until you point it out to them.

reply to Anonymous Hero:

Your mention of the brake on the VW Beetle reminds me of a bizarre problem I had back in the mid 1960's.

I was going around a traffic circle in my bug and I touched my brake to avoid getting too close to a car off my starboard bow but it was as if the brake system suddenly disappeared. The pedal went down with absolutely no resistance and I actually bumped the other car slightly. I tried the brake again and it worked fine. I continued around the circle twice to see if the other guy stopped but he hadn't.

The brakes continued to work perfectly for weeks and I began to think it was my imagination.

Then one night it happened again as I was approaching a Stop sign. Again, only once and everything was normal all the way home. The next day I looked things over and everything looked fine. A few days later it happened yet again and I knew it was real so I was determined to track it down.

The brake was a lever with a hinge at one end, the pedal at the other and a hole in the arm partway between the ends. A spring held it up. There was a clevis fork with a pin through the tines and through the hole in the brake lever. Threaded into the clevis fork was a stud with a locking nut. The end of the stud was rounded and fit against the piston in the master cylinder. There was a substantial rubber boot to seal between the stud and the firewall.

The stud had broken right at the locking nut but the rubber boot held the ends together most of the time. Just on rare occasion did they "miss" each other.

I removed the broken-off end of the stud from the clevis and put the other parts back (albeit a little short) until I could get a new stud.

bandership

I had a VW bus ot one time that twice lost all the fluid in the master cylinder w/o any indication of where it escaped. The first time was at a traffic circle in northern NJ, at rush hour of course. The second time was on the Wilbur Cross Parkway north of Hartford Conn. I was in a circular exit ramp headed for UConn at Storrs. Both times no indication of where it got to, and I checked every inch of that system both times. Knowing how to downshift, and having the reflexes to react made all the difference between a disaster and a close call, that and having a functioning secondary (parking) brake system.

There is a problem where cars with a brake servo can suck all the fluid into the engine and burn it......LOOK NO LEAKS!!!!!

I bought a new VW Sharan with a 140 BHP Diesel engine in 2001, it was quite fast, top speed about 210KMH on a good day.

I found that occasionally, after a high speed run, the brake servo stopped working. Rock hard pedal and as good as no brakes at all.....talk about almost sh*tting my pants, doing over 200 KMH and unable to stop is really bad news.....how I never hit anyone I really don't know.....

VW Changed the brake Servo 4 times, but it still happened. Finally they changed Servo and master cylinder together, problem fixed, but nobody understood why......

Hero, is your car a 991? I didn't think the 997 had the brake override.

I never notice the older 911's having the brake/clutch attached to the floor. I did notice the offset of the steering wheel and pedals. Years ago, I have an old 912 (1966) and a 911 (1970). I actually liked the 912 better. The 911 had that oddball autostick.

2004 996 GT3

There is no way I could afford a 991.

I was never a fan of the Sportomatic transmission, but did have an opportunity to buy an early 70s Targa with a time-certed 2.7 engine many, many years ago. I really, really regret not jumping on that deal.

The old cars really have soul, but lack AC, which is a modern necessity down here in the Sunshine State.

I had no idea the '04 996 has the throttle controlled by the brake. I had an '01 996 and it was great for heel toe driving. I bought my 996 back in '05 with 48K miles on it. The guy I bought it from had installed a beautiful exhaust system, intake, short throw shifter, chipped it, rear wheel spacers with 285 rear tires and lowered the car. I worked long hours and on my drive home, the freeway was pretty empty, so it became my race track. The exit ramp was a long sweeping 180 (actually two 90s that were nearly a 180) followed by 200 feet of straight and the final 90. Throttle down through those corners at stupid speed! What an amazing car! In 2009, I decided to sell my 996, because I had two tickets in a six month period. The crazy thing is that the tickets were in my Boxster, not the 996! A week before selling the 996, I told Cindy that I would try driving the car like a normal car and if I could do it, I'd keep the car. Well, I couldn't ... we have a beautiful winding road near our home. I ran through it at 125 and decided I couldn't behave, so I sold it. I told myself that I would buy another when I got the speed thing out of me. Over the last few years, I've realized that there is no reason to own a car like that if I don't drive it fast. So, I still have the desire to own one, but I know that I shouldn't.

I can't believe that you can "behave" with a GT3! Haha! What a fabulous car!

Have you considered track events?

I can't claim any recipe for success, but 6+ years of ownership and 75K miles and no tickets and no radar detector.

I am not exactly a saint, but I do reserve my moments carefully.

Part of my philosophy is that I would rather drive my car slow than any other car fast, but I can say that you really do notice just how slow people really are when the light turns green.

Part of that is just a cultural thing in Florida. I am starting to think that they are not red lights, but Text stops or bed and breakfasts.

The throttle-brake interaction may just be something unique to the GT3. I don't know.

By the way, have you seen the 2014 GT3 just unveiled in Geneva? Many, so called "purists", are pooh-poohing it for ditching the manual transmission (PDK only now) and adding more electronic magic (rear wheel steering, etc.) into the soup can at a porky 3,200 pounds, but the performance figures are eyebrow raising - so is the price at $131K.

You wrote:-

They used to arc downward like a VW Beetle, but are now suspended from above like most cars.

I hated that, one of the many reasons I never bought either.... but the reason is extremely simple, early Porsches used mostly parts from VW......

Note:-

To everyone out there, you pronounce "Porsche" in German as "Porsher", not "Porsh"...

Remember, all letters are pronounced in 99.888% of all German words.....main exception is that when a "th" occurs (rarely), it only makes the "t" stronger, no "th" as in "the". Germans have real problems saying "the" in English, or any word with "th" in English.........they tend to spit there false teeth out (if they have them!!!!)

I think your mod was a good one.

Just for the heck of it, I went out and measured the distance between pedals, in my vehicles.

Both my 85 GMC truck, and my 97 Camry, measured 4" between the edges of the pedals. My 2002 Chrysler Town & Country van measured 2-1/2".

It's possible that they thought that the closer spacing would hasten stopping time; if so, it was a bad idea.

The closer spacing is also a problem for anyone that wears heavy work boots; it's very easy to hit the gas while trying to brake.

You have essentially returned the spacing to what it was, before some engineers started tinkering with things.