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Is the Public Finally Starting to Get It ?

05/23/2013 8:06 PM

Robert Stone has made a new film about, of all things, the need for nuclear power....

Pandora's Promise...

A new movement ? Environmentalists for Nuclear Power....

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2013/05/environmentalists-for-nuclear-power.php

Environmentalists debunk high cost of nuclear power....

http://www.newsmax.com/US/nuclear-power-costs-environmentalists/2013/05/23/id/506078

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#1

Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/23/2013 8:23 PM

How do you substantiate your assessment based on the reports?

Germany is running head strong with solar and the Japan nuclear meltdowns did nothing but instill fear in the hearts of the German people. For that reason they are abandoning nuclear for solar and purchasing the deficit in energy from external states such as Russia and France.

Is there concrete evidence to show the tide is turning with public opinion?

If true, will it be enough to help our energy needs and reduce fossil fuel usage?

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#2
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/23/2013 9:24 PM

The post installed analysis shows that the costs of solar in Germany came to .32 per kwh as opposed to .07 for nuclear(this adds up when you're talking 4 tw's), this seems to be a real eye opener, that together with the projected CO2 emissions of coal burning power plants, and the health effects of particulate quantity being produced from the burning of fossil fuels, the sulfur and other pollutants, makes for a very compelling argument....Together with the safety record, new safer plant designs, and stockpile of nuclear fuel available(which is claimed to be 1000 years supply if all energy supplied in the US was from nuclear), this is the now called the nuclear waste stockpile, but is potentially a fuel source....The fact that these leading environmentalists linked in the op have been outspoken opponents of nuclear energy since the beginning of time, have done a 180ยบ and are now speaking out for and in favor of, nuclear energy, could mark a turning point in the tide of opposition...

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#5
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/23/2013 11:20 PM

You facts may be right as far as the cost analysis, but that does not support the theory that the tide is turning with respect to public opinion.

In fact, Germany is a prime example of the reverse.

I can't comment on the specific individuals you cited, but I can't say that those individuals represent the tip of the spear as far as leading public opinion either.

Again, I do not disagree with your claim that nuclear energy is an excellent potential for generating energy, I just can't find any compelling evidence that the public is following suit.

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#19
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 10:10 PM

Latest poll I could find Feb 2013...68% American public favor nuclear power and should prepare for new facilities to be built....

""The survey found double-digit increases since 2012 in Americans who strongly associate nuclear energy with clean air and seven other attributes, and these changing perceptions pushed overall favorability up near historical peak levels," said Ann Bisconti, president of Bisconti Research. Seventy-three percent of respondents believe that nuclear plants operating in the United States are safe and secure, with 24 percent thinking they are not. Also, 65 percent believe that "nuclear power plants in this area are able to withstand the most extreme natural events that may occur here." The new survey shows that 81 percent of the respondents see nuclear as a key provider of electricity, up from 77 percent last September. "

http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/newsreleases/New-Poll-Shows-Americans%E2%80%99-Support-for-Nuclear-Ener

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#20
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 10:28 PM

Show me a survey that says that a nuke can be built in their "back yard".

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#31
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/25/2013 12:58 PM

Ha!, show me one for any public utilities!

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#32
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/27/2013 2:47 PM

In Wisconsin, they are beginning to shut down the Kewaunee Nuclear Plant using Lake Michigan. And I think that this is the trend until its more economical to produce power this way is found.

They did try to sell it, but no interested buyers.

A new coal fired plant was built about 7-8 years ago just south of Green Bay, Wisconsin, (about 60 miles from Kewaunee and has had expansions. But I also know that the older coal fired plants are shutting because its cheaper to buy the power off the grid, I am curious to know where and how this power is produced, whether its from the newer coal fired plants.

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#27
In reply to #5

Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/25/2013 9:51 AM

Whatever the public opinion is doing--they may not be correct! I think it would be called mass hysteria. The media doesn't help either.

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#21
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 10:32 PM

You need to take care in quoting costs. Nuclear may be able to produce power at $0.07/kWh but the distribution costs are likely to be 6 times that.

The "distribution" costs for solar are likely to be less (yes its a complicated assessment if the grid is to be the equalizer and there are increasingly now battery technologies that can offset this)

- and then after all that there is the cost of disposing old nuclear plants compared with solar units.

None of this addresses the embedded energy cost, which I suspect is much higher for nuclear.

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#33
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/27/2013 11:00 PM

' ...the distribution cost for solar are likely to be less. ..... battery technology that can offset this)...' . . .

This idea seems strange, and those estimates are suspect. More importantly though, it's a bad comparison. It is misleading because it compares two noequivalent competing energy sources. . .

Nuclear operates generally in a base load capacity. Solar and wind continually vary sufficiently to increase the change in output necessary from load following and peaking equipment. that is like creating additional load in some respects. .

Compare nuclear to something it can replace or that can replace it. e.g. Coal.

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#3

Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/23/2013 10:56 PM

I would still think energies like solar and wind are better at this point.

Its only the energy demand that makes nuclear energy look so tasteful, but it has issues like safety, and even waste management.

All plants are designed with good care, but events like the Fukushima nuclear meltdown unfortunately do pose a threat. If we make energy production through nuclear more common, there is will be more accidents.

Nuclear energy is good and the video makes a good point on the energy demand, but I would think we need to master it better before we can vouch for it.

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#4
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/23/2013 11:19 PM

All the failures that have happened to date with nuclear facilities can be corrected easily...Fukushima nuclear power plant was built in the wrong location, a place where tidal waves are known to occur from time to time...The first cars that were built were not very safe, but that didn't stop new safer designs from being built....We just can't afford wind and solar on a scale of the proportions we need....Germany has run itself into near bankruptcy with their poorly thought out approach....The world will have no choice but to go nuclear, it's simple economics....Uranium is said to have 100,000 times the energy density of oil....Here's a transcript of a talk on nuclear energy....

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2013/4021safa_only_nuke_solves.html

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#7
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 12:01 AM

Germany has an electrical demand of about 60 gw, the US is about 1200 gw... a problem that Germany is having now even at this early stage, is the fluctuation in the grid supply, the sun can be covered by clouds one minute and all producing the next, the fluctuations are very difficult to manage, they have no way to store electricity and they are now committing to 10 billion in additional funds to build the power lines capable of handling the ebb and flow of electricity from surrounding countries....What happens if their neighbors go solar and wind as well?? What happens if their neighbors start jacking up the price??What happens when all this equipment has to be replaced, will they subsidize the whole country again?? If you ask me this will fail about halfway...at some point they will run out of money, with no return, it doesn't make economic sense....it's not economically sustainable....

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#12
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 2:32 PM

The downside to "can be corrected easily" is of course the damage that can result when we have one of those "Oopsie" moments that teaches us what to correct.

Not that nuclear power plants can't in theory be be made reasonably safe. But the devil lurks in the details - and in the dark corners of the companies building / operating the plants where shortcuts are taken that aren't accounted for in the "foolproof" design.

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#13
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 2:39 PM

"Not that nuclear power plants can't in theory be be made reasonably safe."

Nuclear power plants are already the safest form of electrical generation....by far

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Safety-and-Security/Safety-of-Plants/Safety-of-Nuclear-Power-Reactors/#.UZ-zQ0D2aSo

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#14
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 6:05 PM

.........................Deaths from energy-related accidents per unit of electricity
Summary of severe* accidents in energy chains for electricity 1969-2000

OECD

Non-OECD

Energy chainFatalitiesFatalities/TWyFatalitiesFatalities/TWy

Coal

225915718,000597

Natural gas

1043851000111

Hydro

14330,00010,285

Nuclear

003148

Data from Paul Scherrer Institut, in OECD 2010. * severe = more than 5 fatalities

"Coal-fired power generation has chronic, rather than acute, safety implications for public health. It also has profound safety implications for the mining of coal, with thousands of workers killed each year in coal mines"

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#15
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 7:47 PM

That ignores the aftermath of Chernobyl.

The probability may be low, but a catastrophic plant failure might result in significant collateral damage.

You may have seen this link that describes the aftermath from another point of view.

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#16
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 9:14 PM

My wife took her mother to Whales in 1990, and she told of contaminated sheep with red X's painted on them and apple trees that were dead on one side.

Interesting link.

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#17
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 9:38 PM

Chernobyl was a unique occurrence, a perfect storm of everything that could go wrong, starting with a bad design...These types of reactors no longer exist, they have all been shut down...64 deaths are attributed to the Chernobyl disaster, so far....This still is minimal compared to other types of power generation....

"The April 1986 disaster at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant in the Ukraine was the result of major design deficiencies in the RBMK type of reactor, the violation of operating procedures and the absence of a safety culture. One peculiar feature of the RBMK design was that coolant failure could lead to a strong increase in power output from the fission process ( positive void coefficient). However, this was not the prime cause of the Chernobyl accident.

The accident destroyed the reactor and killed 56 people, 28 of whom died within weeks from radiation exposure. It also caused radiation sickness in a further 200-300 staff and firefighters, and contaminated large areas of Belarus, Ukraine, Russia and beyond. It is estimated that at least 5% of the total radioactive material in the Chernobyl-4 reactor core was released from the plant, due to the lack of any containment structure. Most of this was deposited as dust close by. Some was carried by wind over a wide area.

About 130,000 people received significant radiation doses (i.e. above internationally accepted ICRP limits) and continue to be monitored. About 4000 cases of thyroid cancer in children have been linked to the accident. Most of these were curable, though about nine were fatal. No increase in leukaemia or other cancers have yet shown up, but some is expected. The World Health Organisation is closely monitoring most of those affected.

The Chernobyl accident was a unique event and the only time in the history of commercial nuclear power that radiation-related fatalities occurred.

The destroyed unit 4 was enclosed in a concrete shelter which now requires remedial work.

An OECD expert report on it concluded that "the Chernobyl accident has not brought to light any new, previously unknown phenomena or safety issues that are not resolved or otherwise covered by current reactor safety programs for commercial power reactors in OECD Member countries. In other words, the concept of 'defence in depth' was conspicuous by its absence, and tragically shown to be vitally important.

Apart from the RBMK reactor design, an early Russian PWR design, the VVER-440/V-230, gave rise to concerns in Europe, and a program was initiated to close these down as a condition of EU accession, along with Lithuania's two RBMK units. See related papers on Early Soviet Reactors and EU Accession, and RBMK Reactors. "

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#24
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/25/2013 8:24 AM

You wrote, "64 deaths are attributed to the Chernobyl disaster, so far..."

I think the human carnage goes far further than what someone wants to tabulate as "official". Let's not forget the cost of the cleanup effort for this mishap and others.

Nevertheless, Chernobyl and Japan's nuclear mishaps have only galvanized the negative perceptions about nuclear power. If anything, what the public is finally starting to "get" is a very bad taste in their mouths for nuclear power.

However unfortunate or incorrect that may be, it is still the prevailing perception and it is stronger than ever as witnessed in Germany.

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#29
In reply to #15

Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/25/2013 10:04 AM

Chernobyl is an obsolete reactor type that isn't used anymore. Plus, I think some of the controls were bypassed for a test.

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#22
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/25/2013 6:19 AM





thanks for the Safa transcript..He makes a case for fast breeders...Excellent..

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#26
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/25/2013 9:48 AM

Solar, wind, and hydro are not better! There is not enough land area for solar and wind to meet the energy demand that we will have. This is before we even consider NIMBY (not in my back yard). The best sites for hydro are already used. All 3 have environmentalist concerns.

What we are talking about are fast neutron reactors (as opposed to thermal neutron reactors which almost all present reactors are.) Fast reactors will consume what is waste from the thermal reactors; that means they will use it up and it will not have to be stored for many thousands of years. For those worried about proliferation, the Pu generated cannot be separated; it will go back into the reactor as fuel and be consumed.

Fukushima will not happen again. The fast reactors are intrinsically safer. They do not use pressurized water for coolant; therefore they can't cause a steam explosion. Even if the circulation pumps are lost, it will cool adequately by thermosiphon.

Of course there will be more accidents, but fewer per kwh. The safety record of the coal generation industry is far worse than nuclear. Also many people do not realize that coal-burning plants exhaust many tons of pollutants into the air--including uranium and other bad stuff.

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#6

Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/23/2013 11:44 PM

One word. Wind energy!!!!!!

OK, one phrase.

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#18
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 9:47 PM
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#8

Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 12:14 AM

SolarEagle, what you say makes sense given the energy demands of today's world in big cities. But given that nuclear power only provide like 10% of the world's energy, many more would have to be established for it to become a greater percent.

I didn't go through the whole page (sorry sir), but it doesn't seem to mention anything about nuclear waste management. Wouldn't that become a concern if nuclear power comes to be used more?

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#9
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/24/2013 1:37 AM

I think the nuclear waste issue is a hyped-up political football. The volume generated shouldn't be terribly high, and even less so as ways of further using it become known.

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#28
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Re: Is the public finally starting to get it ?

05/25/2013 10:00 AM

Fast nuclear power is capable of providing 100% of the power needs of the whole world. Yes, even the world with the soon-to-be power hungry third world countries.

See my other post about waste management--it will be consumed as fuel in the fast neutron nuclear generating plants. Before someone points out that even fast nuclear has waste, yes it does. However it is much smaller in volume and is radioactive for a few hundred years instead of many thousands.

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#10

Re: Is the Public Finally Starting to Get It ?

05/24/2013 9:32 AM

Thorium.

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#11

Re: Is the Public Finally Starting to Get It ?

05/24/2013 2:14 PM

I would love to see the pubic views of Nuclear power change for the better.

Fukushima pretty much ruined my nuclear tech stocks for the time being.

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#23

Re: Is the Public Finally Starting to Get It ?

05/25/2013 7:41 AM

What is the "real cost" of a nuclear accident? That is, what is the cost to "monitor" those individuals effected by an accident? What is the cost to treat radiation sickness, and related sickness over a persons life time? The same question can be asked for true cost of other fuels such as coal. I'm in favor of nukes but we need to have our eyes wide open on the issues and look at facts not news hype. Thanks for the links SolarEagle!

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#25

Re: Is the Public Finally Starting to Get It ?

05/25/2013 8:26 AM

on good meltdown in your neighborhood can ruin your entire day, I think public opinion hasn't changed a bit to the positive to support your view. I'm a fan of nuclear but I just don't buy into your position as it pertains to the public.

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#30

Re: Is the Public Finally Starting to Get It ?

05/25/2013 12:39 PM

Keep in mind that if it weren't for nuclear energy we wouldn't exist nor would most of the other forms of energy persued by mankind.Our sun after all is the source of all that we discuss at the end of the day especially energy sources,and it operates,at least we believe it does,as a constant nuclear device of substance.Dr.Safa"s Review of this topic as suggested early in this discussion by Solar Eagle i think is very persuasive for nuclear and suggest you read it in its entirety..Then come back with believable alternative(s).

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#34

Re: Is the Public Finally Starting to Get It ?

05/28/2013 4:43 PM

The United States is the largest consummer of electric power in the world. Smaller countries can depend on conventional and cleaner ways to generate power, but nuclear power is and always will be a major necessity for the U.S. Houses in the U.S. have 200amp service. Homes in the rest of the world are lucky to have 1/4 of that. I have been to parts of the world where plugging in a toaster would overload the circuit.

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#35

Re: Is the Public Finally Starting to Get It ?

05/30/2013 3:26 PM

"

Use of nuclear power prevents air-pollution deaths, greenhouse gas emissions: Study


Washington, May 30 (ANI): The use of nuclear power has led to prevention of 1.84 million air pollution-related deaths globally and has also prevented the release of 64 billion tons of greenhouse gases that might have erupted from burning coal and other fossil fuels, a new study has revealed.

Pushker A. Kharecha and James E. Hansen from the International Energy Agency have said that nuclear power has the ability to aid in controlling of both global climate change and illness and death associated with air pollution.

Both the researchers analyzed nuclear power's benefits in reducing carbon dioxide emissions and air pollution deaths keeping in mind Fukushima accident in Japan that could overshadow the benefits of nuclear energy.

The study based upon calculations of prevented mortality and greenhouse gas emissions for the period 1971-2009, confirmed that nuclear power can prevent deaths from 420,000 to 7 million by mid-century, and prevent emission of 80-240 billion tons of the greenhouse gases linked to global warming.

The study that appeared in the ACS journal Environmental Science and Technology further proved that large-scale expansion of unconstrained natural gas use will not help in mitigating the climate problem and will cause far more deaths than the expansion of nuclear power. (ANI)

http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/2013/05/30/180-Use-of-nuclear-power-prevents-air-pollution-deaths-greenhouse-gas-emissions-Study.html

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#36

Re: Is the Public Finally Starting to Get It ?

06/05/2013 12:49 PM

I'm not against nuclear, as I posted an article recently about a professor trying to solve the waste storage issue, and reclaim spent fuel to boot. To me, that is more of a long-term thorn than accident risks. Nuclear isn't considered for transportation needs, which presents a very large demand.

But if I had my druthers (and they're here somewhere, I just don't see them at the moment), I'd vote for a revamping of the whole residential scheme of living. Passive heating and cooling (and I know, the cooling wouldn't be as good as good old A/C in hot climates), some solar and some from the grid, as needed. I think we could reduce the demand in this way... eventually. Few seem to care about passive energy design. Many households aren't even occupied during the day.

A combination of nuclear and redefining what constitutes a family energy footprint could make a significant difference in our energy future. Increased use of bicycles should be assumed. (Or a bit larger, enclosed, pedal-powered vehicle.) Cluster communities, where most needs can be met from very short distances. We're close to that anyway -- as long as what you're looking for is a major fast-food chain, a Starbucks, or a Walmart. Another necessary energy hog is the refrigerator. But there are even solar refrigerator units.

Also, the coming generations will be so absorbed in their "smart" devices ( I see this all the time), that they won't care about changes in their thermal "life" so much. The devices should easily be adaptable to solar recharging, if they aren't already.

If there were/was a contest with an enticing prize for the most energy efficient home/building design, it would be interesting to see what designs/ideas would come of it. Almost everyone thinks being independent from the grid is a worthy goal. Heck, there may already be some very excellent designs, but who looks?

And as always, I can't see the idea of "planning" for resource needs/usage, without population being a main consideration.

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