Rotative Beam Generator

Some of the varied formulae for this folly can be found here:

First Law of Thermodynamics

The best help you will get is someone telling you not to waste your time on such nonsense.

Do you expect this contraption to do any work?

the mathematical formulas to determine how much weight will be needed to generate 180 watts if it is attached to one side of the flywheel with a diameter of 5 feet. The strategy for the project is to generate electricity as the weight on the flywheel falls.

I think he meant do you have any equations?

I think he meant some kind of weight against what I call gravity.

I think he meant about a moment of 2.1/2ft radius.

I think he meant to consider something for producing electrical energy.

- just finishing my chocolate, as the only brandy I have tasted was spit out in 1975...

'cmon, your bigger than this; perhaps knowledge yields certain puffiness...

There might be some help available here.

Failing that, a small electric motor and a battery can be used to turn the flywheel, though its size may be important in determining bearing losses and selecting the right motor an battery. As an example, the rotating restaurant at the top of the Telecom Tower uses a very small motor to turn it on its axis according to urbal legend, though this one is driven from the mains.

Here, use this model instead:

<...weight will be needed to generate 180 watts...>

Think of it in terms of the power obtained from the loss of potential energy with change of height of the heavy object, and go from there.

This idea just might work, if you wear one of these.

Hi, thanks for info. I plan to use a small solar panel and battery to power a DC 12 volt motor that draws 1.25 amps that will be used to shift a counter weight on the beam. The generator will only be connected to a load as the weight on the flywheel falls. Then the generator load will be disconnected and the small DC motor on the beam will shift a counter weight and apply a mechanical advantage to the flywheel to continue the rotation.

This is not a overunity or perpetual motion project, although I do appreciate the humor of some of the other comments.

Okay... to what end?

It sounds as if you wish to increase the 1.25A @ 12VDC with this device.

no, it did not read nor seem that way to me. But I am working on my English and etc.

So, you envision an input of 15 watts (1.25 x 12) and an output of 180 watts. Where are the 165 additional watts coming from? Are you thinking that you want to power say a 180 watt light bulb intermittently: on for about 4 seconds out of every minute (accounting for some losses)?

wow!

show me where he is trying to raise any weight with other than an outside source already with additional energy (as he described) to only but RESET the start-up (maybe) and observe what he wants?

Just buy two larger solar panels with the money you will save by not pursuing this folly.

What would you do with the 50 watts this thing may produce anyway?

I agree it is not perpetual motion, nor overunity. You will never get more energy out of this contraption than you put into it.

Send us some pictures, if you ever do this exercise.

No where does it say WHERE he was getting "the mechanical advantage" just in his semantics, wanted to lift a weight.

Big difference between scientia and theory, from even what is in print, eh?

No where does enough questioning lead from any perpetual whatever that seems racing in the confusion of other minds.

he just want to do what he wants it to...,

he only wants ADDITIONALLY to lift something mechanically

wow!

So it is still a load of b.....cks, then?

Hi, normally the rotative beam was powered by a steam engine. I plan to replace the steam engine with the small DC motor and counter weight. The counter weight on the beam will only be required to move horizontally. I still gathering the vocabulary to adequately describe the process, thank you for taking the time to respond.

The project will have a low RPM with high torque. The posted video was just a attempt to help show the process. It should be a few weeks complete the fabrication. Thanks again

Before fabrication, make sure the design is right. It is far easier/cheaper/time-costly to make mistakes on paper than to build a contraption that doesn't work.

Or, what about building a model using something like Meccano?

I watched a few of the videos of the GRAM device. Nicely made. My hope is that you are not the builder, but rather someone mislead by the builder.

His idea is explained in the comment section for one video:

• Hi, I am using it to drive a flywheel that will drive a PMA. I am going to try to use a solenoid to keep the pendulum oscillating. A small amount of power at the input with a large amount of power at the output. The extra power will come from the gravitational assist of the falling mass and mechanical advantage. No wind no power, no sun no power, gravity is on all the time.

Ideas like this come from a misunderstanding of gravity, thermodynamics, reality, etc. etc. etc. "Extra power" cannot come from mechanical advantage, nor from gravity.

now, easily read

Use your solar panel to charge a big battery. You will be time and money ahead in the end plus you can pull a lot more than 180 watts off your big battery for some time before it goes dead and needs recharging from the solar panel.

Is this the most efficient way for you to store energy? (not create it)

It sounds a bit "cuckoo" clock ish? But, I don't understand your idea like you do.

I made something similar as a lad, where the weight slid along the spoke into the
center of the wheel on the up side, and rolled to the edge on the "down side" the
idea being the mechanical advantage on the "beam" section of the wheel.
(Sorry, no cigar. It did not work for me, but I wish you luck.)

Do you have the space for something like this instead? (link below)

http://www.gizmag.com/ares-rail-energy-storage/28395/

jt.

Every minute you spend upset is a minute of happiness you'll never get back.

Hi, thanks for posting the regenerative storage idea. My project is still evolving. Basically a jack is used to lift the weight with the generator off. Then the as the weight falls the generator is turned on.

If it does not work, thank you for all the info posted.

"... a jack is used to lift the weight...", that is the "ah-ha" moment that others have been alluding to, someone or something has to do work that raises that weight, and that work is the only thing that can be recovered (minus losses) to cause your machine to have any output.

A far simpler mechanism involves draining water from a higher elevation, generating electricity by the motion of the water, capturing the water and then pumping it back up to repeat the cycle. It's called "pumped storage", involves basically only two moving parts (the water and turbine/generator, auxiliaries excluded), and returns nearly eight +/- units of electricity for every ten that it takes to move the water back up.

180W @ £0.12GBP/kWh off the mains = £0.52GBP/day or slightly more than a 2nd class postage stamp, or £190GBP/year. At a return-on-capital-employed basis of 15% per annum, let the equipment be worth no more than £1250GBP. One could purchase 2 new top-of-the-range bicycles for that.

Sounds like yet another take on a perpetual motion machine. Which like all the others...won't work.

Hi, this is not a overunity project and is not a perpetual motion project. I am in the process of fabricating a new test stand so I can more easily make modifications. Because the rotative beam will be connected to a permanent magnet alternator the load can remove when the flywheel weight is rising to the top of the rotation. The beam will include a counter weight that will shifted toward and away from the pivot point. A small DC motor will be used for this purpose. The system will resemble a pump jack and function as a stationary regenerative braking system. It will always require a input power to operate. Because the generator and small DC motor can be turn on and off during the rotation, the system may work as a power multiplier. This is just a experiment and I am not trying to mislead anyone. If I wrong, the rotative beam may be powered from some other source.
I noticed the deleted post and I hope this helps explains the reason for this thread

As long as its assumed its impossible to generate enough power on its own to reset itself for the next cycle much less generate a surplus without an external input.

And external sourse of power will always bee needed due to mechainal friction and mechanical and electrical other losses and inefficiencies.

I originally read this to mean it would genreate enough power to move the beam back for the next cycle....which of course...will not happen.

Hi, just a basic concept drawing

How are you planning to shift that weight back and forth against gravity without using any external energy?

Hi, I plan to start with pendulum and include a catch and release mechanism to shift the beam counter weight. Suggestions are welcome

It will always require a input power to operate. Because the generator and small DC motor can be turn on and off during the rotation, the system may work as a power multiplier.

It won't act as a power multiplier. In any system, input power will be less than output power. In your case if your input is 15 watts, you could expect to get 7.5 watts out of the generator. (Assuming 10% loss due to friction and 20% losses in each the motor and generator.)

If output power is greater than input power, the system would be said to be "over unity" (meaning the ratio of output/input is greater than one). They are figments of peoples' imagination.

Gravity, mechanical advantage, flywheels, etc do not change the basic physics.

But build it nevertheless. It will be a good learning experience.

Hi, thanks for info and the link

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hph.html#mechcon

It is helping.

It's difficult to envisage the purpose of this device at this distance as access to YouTube is not available here. At one point it is being described as a <...Rotative Beam Generator...>, at another a <...stationary regenerative braking system...> and at another a <...power multiplier...>. It still whiffs of a device that is conceived to extract more work or power than is put in; those things don't work in this universe, for reasons outlined above.

1. If it is an alternator/generator, why does it need a motor?
2. If it has a motor, why does it turn on and turn off? What turns it on and off?
3. If it has a jack, what is the source of effort needed to operate the jack?
4. If it has a motor and a solar panel, why does it need a jack?
5. What is this thing supposed to do, exactly?

Hi, because you do not have excess to youtube it is difficult for me adequately describe the idea. A video on youtube shows the person using a pendulum to pump water. Using the pendulum makes pumping the water easier. The video calls it gravity assisted power. I am relating generating electricity to pumping water. This is not a over unity project or a perpetual motion project.

What it is is a pendulum that uses a set of ratcheting clutches to change the swinging motion to rotary motion.

"Using the pendulum makes pumping the water easier. The video calls it gravity assisted power. I am relating generating electricity to pumping water."

Now as far as using pendulum to make pumping water or anything else easier there still is no added energy being generated by the pendulum. Its simply working as a counterbalance and flywheel to average out the amount of energy being used by the system opposed to having a high peak load followed by a negative feedback.

That is to say that on the pumping stroke you may need to exert 100 watts of energy to raise the water plus mechanical linkage but on the downstroke you get 80 watts of that input energy feedback to the person doing the work. By adding a counter weight or pendulum that balances the mass and motion of the moving parts plus water weight the overall average is that only 20 watts of continuous input energy is needed instead of 100 peak followed by 80 return. From the exertion standpoint of the power source only 20 watts of power are needed opposed to unbalanced 100 peak followed by 80 return.

Its the same concept that the giant weights on a oil well pump head work on. They just counterbalance the load and average out the amount of power the system needs to run.

Then it should work. All power (pun intended) to the original poster for a successful project.

<unsubscribes>

Do you agree adding catches etc.. can only add to inefficiencies?

From TDC on the wheel what "input" will move the weight (uphill) from
the end of the beam back into the previous central position?
(If you say the flywheel - why "lose" the energy you have put into it?)

If you input the energy anyway, does that not defeat the purpose?
Please see my "input" at No. 17

jt.

When I travel in circles sometimes I don't know if I'm coming or going?

DaVinci's wheel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4aoEiXW8iw

Hi, did you see the elbow in a white coat? Someone is standing behind the wheel and spinning it.

the mathematical formulas

to determine how much weight will be needed

to generate 180 watts

if it is attached to one side of the flywheel with a diameter of 5 feet

B:

work more about what YOU think: q) and (I saw "horizontal") ---

is this a simple "weight" in line with any vertical downward gravitational pull?

generator ( a r/c car 500 watt or 400 watt motor, made for extreme heat tolerances ) may only be 2:1 ineff~ or even worse...

(I saw "horizontal")

so 360-375 watts/ say 1/2hp to be inputted... (( all those working past 2 sig fig may leave the room ))

B:

q) how many ft lbs of for 1 hp to get 1/2 and fit in...? or your desired units of measure...

Or is angular acceleration involved at all vs gravitational acceleration , etc, f=MA... = 180 net watts desired, from inefficient components, and more speculations and presumptions, etc, etc., changes in velocity through test...?

-not presuming any purpose than B, posts,

= getting electricity instead of water moving. WORK:WORK inside a few inefficiencies~

all the lifting things are additional to the question, as outside positioners of a weight to be used

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRpMjxj7vY4

Hi, I may have found a way to use a pendulum two stage oscillating hammer to drive a rotative beam. If this works it will make everything much easier. Thanks for input.

perhaps too some missed your first drawing where a weight rolls down and encounters the gravitational forces at a formulae of SIN of the angle less friction, etc, for a pull and now I see the whole thing a bit better.

have more fun than the negativity tossed your way, B.

Consult with a real teacher of calculus or physics at a high school where AP courses are offered. Common PHYSICS would be better from a communicator, not as among a couple controlling negativitions.

Just go have fun with it all!

right:

One sweep, maybe, and a next wont be 180 watts, as it comes to a stiction stop.

generate 180 watts if it is attached to one side of the flywheel with a diameter of 5 feet

OK you are admitting this is a one time semi-cycle and does not continue of its own re-lifting-sense, right?

What else.

http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/OscilacijeEng.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1n-C5o8fZ0
Hi, the pendulum two stage oscillating hammer will always require a input force to it moving. I was searching for a way to convert the vertical oscillation to drive the rotative beam. It will take me a few weeks to fabricate new concept drawing and I will know more at that time. This is not a overunity or perpetual motion project.
http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/Images/oscillator_animation.gif

would you have then in mind: averaged 180w for certain ? minutes, hours, ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3dLzZZ5jKQ
Hi, I had design a buck converter circuit that works with a permanent magnet alternator for a wind turbine, but I live in a low wind area. No wind, no power, so I am searching for other options to drive the permanent magnet alternator. The max current of the circuit is about 15 amps at 12 volts.

all you will get is a "look see" and it will come to rest.

total inefficiencies must be overcome so much then, as lyn stated: just get your solar going.

Perhaps find a small water fall for the generator and a hydro-drive prop in a shoot or tunnel or something for efficient water flowing...

Did you understand the different and many examples others posted, if your chasing the net positive outcome? (it won't occur)

even as a pendulum in the assembly changes the direction of a (the) mass, those accelerations also eat up any momentary gains, as well.

For only 180 watts just use the solar panels to charge a deep cycle battery and an inverter and go sit in a chair after an hour or two worth of installation time!

The essential formula for any device which converts a moving weight (whether dropping straight down, swinging down, travelling on a wheel) to energy in another form is this:

Energy = weight x distance (straight down).

It does not matter how the weight falls, (straight down or in an arc, or along a straight or varying slope)... the energy is the same (minus some small losses that tend to be greater as the complexity increases).

So, a 55 pound weight falling 10 feet can supply 550 ft lb of work. (Work = Energy. That amount of energy can be converted to other energy units, of course.) If the fall takes 1 second, the power supplied (during that second) will be one horsepower. (The definition of one HP is 550 ft-lb per second.) (1 hp converts to 746 watts). (So looking at it another way, a 55 lb weight falling 10 feet supplies 746 watt-seconds of energy.) Suppose you wanted to power something requiring 180 watts of power. If you divide 746 watt-seconds by 180 watts, you get 4.14 seconds.

In your case, the drop is only five feet, so if you wanted 180 watts for 4.14 seconds, you would need twice the weight: 110 lbs.

If you wanted to power something with 180 watts for a minute, you would need 60/4.14 or 14.49 times as much weight: 1594 lbs.

Any system of levers, flywheels, pendulums, etc can only output the energy put in, minus losses (the the need for simplicity). The output can be a lot of power for a short amount of time, or a small amount of power for a longer amount of time.

If you are interested in powering something electrical, then a battery is almost impossible to beat in a small solar system. A battery accumulates energy over time, so even as small solar panel can charge a large battery (given a lot of time). A battery can output energy in easily controllable ways, with a typical car battery able to put out 500 amps for a short period of time, or 5 amps for a very long period of time). Recreating this flexibility mechanically is not at all easy.

Consider this: a car battery can supply 12V x 60 Ah = 720 watt-hours, and weighs 30-40 lbs. 720 watt hours is 240 times as much energy as the 180 watt-minutes that required the 1594 lb weight above.

Use an inverter to produce AC current, if you need it. Lithium ion batteries are especially good, because they do not suffer some losses the lead acid, do... but they are very expensive. For my solar-powered RV, I use lead acid.

Frauds, of which there are many on the internet, take advantage of the fact that most people don't really understand the relationship between power and energy. There are many people who have built variations on pendulums, after having seen the Milkovic pendulum videos which imply (completely incorrectly) that the energy output is greater than the energy input. The energy output from his pendulum is less than the energy input. Unfortunately, this stuff does not work by magic.