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Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

07/30/2013 4:42 AM

Dear all,

today at site, the customer brought a bunch of flanges to be used in fluidised coal dust transport piping. They are standard JIS flat flanges.

It is the first time I see install a system like this but, my common sense says that the design of the flanges should, in some way, protect the gasket/seal from abrasion.

Is my perception correct?

Salu2 cordiales,

Abel

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#1

Re: Design of flanges for dust fluidised transport

07/30/2013 5:16 AM

It sounds as though it is the customer's problem and no-one else's.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Design of flanges for dust fluidised transport

07/30/2013 5:28 AM

Being an ATEX environment, and considering that there will be people working beside this pipe (including myself) during comissioning and start-up, I have good reasons to be extremely "curious" about the matter at hand.

I have got no answer from customer, and makes me think that somebody may think that can save a bunch of €/$.

I have been looking trough internet to no avail till now.

Probably the information is included in some construction code, but I have not found references till now.

A hint in the right direction will be highly appreciated.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Design of flanges for dust fluidised transport

07/30/2013 5:44 AM

Well, the pipe will be hydraulically tested and bounced off the Client's burst and collapse insurance inspectors before entering process service and whoever is working in the area other than process operatives and supervisors will need a Permit To Work.

Meanwhile, there must be many other things that can receive attention, perhaps?

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#11
In reply to #3

Re: Design of flanges for dust fluidised transport

08/01/2013 3:29 AM

All the procedures you mention will come, eventually, after 6 months or so and they are customer scope of supply.

Other things are dutifully being care of. Thanks.

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#4

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

07/30/2013 8:51 AM

What is your function in this project?

Why not point out your misgivings to the person responsible for the piping design, and the project safety officer?

Now, if you tell us that you are responsible for piping design and safety, I'll have serious doubts about the success of the project.

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#12
In reply to #4

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

08/01/2013 4:41 AM

Dear Lyn,

I will be polite:

1. What is your function in this project?

Supervising the installation of other equipment.

2. Why not point out your misgivings to the person responsible for the piping design, and the project safety officer?

From second post: "I have got no answer from customer, and makes me think that somebody may think that can save a bunch of €/$." This, just in case you do not know or imagine, happen frequently. Even more in developing countries where corruption is a daily occurrence.

3. Now, if you tell us that you are responsible for piping design and safety, I'll have serious doubts about the success of the project.

Well, I am not. I am not an engineer, and do not pretend to. So do not worry. I understand your deep concern about people carrying out works out of their expertise and/or qualification, in detriment of serious engineers.

I like to push the boundaries of my limited knowledge and, working closely with people that knows more than myself (many of them engineers) on daily basis, I find their knowledge enriching. Unfortunately, not always are they so open or giving or polite or allowed to, as most of people here at CR4.

Now, would you understand that I feel offended for your veiled accusation of cowardice (maybe an engineer would say caution), using a "third one" or "someone´s else" to ask a question?..

You have hinted an assumption, an offensive assumption.

If you are an engineer, you know that assumption if the mother of many if not all..........

Salu2 cordiales.

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#5

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

07/30/2013 10:07 AM

Not clear what you're asking. Presumably the pipe system uses flanged joints. Were you expecting a different type of flange? I don't suppose the pressure is high, on a pneumatic conveying system. The gasket is mostly trapped between the flangs faces so to that extent is protected from abrasion, but no different from flanges to other specs - BS, DIN, ANSI....

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#13
In reply to #5

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

08/01/2013 4:44 AM

Not clear what I asked?... in any case you answered quite properly!(GA)

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

08/01/2013 6:25 PM

When you wrote Is my perception correct? I assumed the perception referred to was the one about abrasion, but wasn't entirely sure.

Ref #6, the metal pipe itself is more vulnerable to abrasion than the flanges. Very little of a slip-on flange is exposed to the material flowing. If there's a serious risk of abrasion you could use rubber-lined pipe. Rubber line after welding the flanges on, and carry the rubber over the flange faces. Then you don't need any gaskets.

BTW thanks for the GA!

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#6

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

07/30/2013 2:14 PM

A rubber gasket will withstand abrasion better than the metal flanges themselves. After all, sandblast hoses are rubber lined.

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#14
In reply to #6

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

08/01/2013 4:47 AM

Good point!

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#7

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

07/31/2013 12:25 AM

Consider using Teflon envelope gaskets. That way the gasket will extend to the i.d. of the pipe and Teflon is very, but not outright, abrasion resistant. Also it will give you a very compressible gasket which will improve the sealing of the flanges.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

07/31/2013 3:55 AM

It's still the original poster's customer's problem, and not the original poster's.

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

07/31/2013 8:02 AM

Totally agree with you. If the contract stated that then it is their responsibility. From a practical standpoint is it advantageous, in most cases, to know what the problems and the potential solutions are. This often keeps the contractor on the right track if they know that you are aware that there are readily available solutions at hand. Analogy: If I go to a barber for a hair cut, I will get a better haircut if the barber is aware that I know what a good haircut is.

As a side note, I am very aware of the barber analogy since I, unlike many others of my age group, have enough of the stuff to need a haircut every so often. There is a miniscule amount of color but I still have something to be lacking in color.

Good Luck. Old Salt

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#15
In reply to #9

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

08/01/2013 4:54 AM

Dear Old Salt,

your "barber analogy" hits the nail on the exact head, regarding the spirit of the question.

Your answer about teflon gasket matches with the specifications in the drawings of the client (got to see them just a few minutes ago, indicates gasket PTFE 2mm).

Salu2 cordiales,

Abel.

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#10

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

07/31/2013 9:53 AM

What do the BLUEPRINTS spec out??

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#17
In reply to #10

Re: Design of Flanges for Dust Fluidised Transport

08/03/2013 2:44 AM

Dear McGyver,

the drawings were not available (to me) till now. In any case, dealing everyday with construction and manufacturing drawings, when something "hurts in the eye" (taken form original Spanish) or gives you an itch in the back of your head...How many times you have found some error in a drawing or manual?.

At the end, better safe than sorry. Isn´t it?.

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