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Anonymous Poster #1

Transformer Oil

08/07/2013 4:39 PM

Mineral or vegitable oil, which is preferred for transformers, and why?

any comment or link is appreciated

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#1

Re: Transformer oil

08/07/2013 4:58 PM

Which????? Mineral oil.

Why??? Because I said so.

Comments::::::::You should have read the manual or searched for "Transformer oil" on the web.

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#2

Re: Transformer oil

08/07/2013 5:43 PM

You forgot animal oil. How about lard or blubber?

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Anonymous Poster #2
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Transformer oil

08/07/2013 5:44 PM

They ain't no published research on the BDV of blubber, you dunce.

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Transformer oil

08/07/2013 5:48 PM

Tell me again why we should allow anonymous posters here?

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#6
In reply to #4

Re: Transformer oil

08/07/2013 5:57 PM

Because self-abuse is one of the finest joys.

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#24
In reply to #4

Re: Transformer oil

08/10/2013 1:05 AM

So we can do their homework for them.

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Anonymous Poster #1
#25
In reply to #24

Re: Transformer oil

08/11/2013 7:31 PM

Question meant for who is familiar with the subject and have the answer off head

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Transformer oil

08/11/2013 8:41 PM

Our answers are meant for those who hide in the shadows.

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#5
In reply to #3

Re: Transformer oil

08/07/2013 5:49 PM

Next time some EE student needs a project, now we've got one!

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#10
In reply to #5

Re: Transformer oil

08/07/2013 7:55 PM

Not actually a dumb idea, after it is properly processed and refined it may be a potential additive or emergency alternative to conventional oil in certain applications.

A thinking-outside-the-square comparative analysis project would be quite interesting and would certainly turn a few heads.

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#7

Re: Transformer oil

08/07/2013 6:36 PM

You should use the fluid the transformer manufacturer specifies. Why? Because the warranty is voided if you don't.

Depending on the design of the transformer, the cooling media could be mineral oil, anhydrous nitrogen, air, paraffin, vegetable oil, sulfur hexafluorine, sodium or whatever. I've heard a rumor that some companies have considered using the blood of lazy, idiotic new employees that obviously did not earn their degree to cool their transformers.

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#9
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Re: Transformer oil

08/07/2013 7:52 PM
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#8

Re: Transformer Oil

08/07/2013 7:51 PM

Mineral because it works and is cheaper.

Other alternatives will depend on the particular transformer application, that is why there are so many different types of mineral and non-mineral based transformer oils on the market.

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#11

Re: Transformer Oil

08/07/2013 8:24 PM

Mineral and vegetable both. Mineral is slowly being phased out because vegetable is less environmentally hazardous. Mineral does more damage to the environment than vegetable does. Also less hazardous to responders who must mitigate and then clean up the mess after a leak, explosion or fire.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#12

Re: Transformer Oil

08/07/2013 8:29 PM

Vegetable oil will go rancid.

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#14
In reply to #12

Re: Transformer Oil

08/07/2013 10:03 PM

Inhibitors are used to keep it fresh and not clogging up the fins or heat exchanger tubes.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#13

Re: Transformer Oil

08/07/2013 9:36 PM

Are you cooking or transforming?

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#19
In reply to #13

COOKING Re: Transformer Oil and scientia

08/09/2013 12:39 AM

those nutritional sites have a few pages from canola to coconut oil specs for high temp reactions and health to the body

hmph

just so it is not the goo out of old capacitors...

by th'way: a good "scientist" (knowledge-gatherer, of scientia:knowledge) simply does not have any -some-think-necessary- "good ideas" (subjectiveness as involved beyond a knowledge of...) but good scientists DO HAVE good objective data-acquisition skill/notation-sets, and leaves the theories to the 'knowledge-interpreting-benders' .

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#15

Re: Transformer Oil

08/08/2013 1:08 AM

Definitely mineral oil. Any vegetable oil, when heated would, when heated, eats oxidised and leaves the solid layer of oxidised oil, that would hinder heat transfer.

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Transformer Oil

08/08/2013 9:37 AM

There are vegetable-based oils that are being used for transformer insulation (example: Cooper's Envirotemp FR3 dielectric fluid) for at least 10-15 years now. They function comparably to mineral oil, but are still somewhat more costly. They have been used more often in smaller transformers, particularly in areas where the potential impact to the environment is a bigger issue than the cost. The Cooper fluid also has advantages over mineral oil due to its higher flash point (>300C, as is silicone fluid), so I believe it can be used in indoor installations.

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#21
In reply to #16

Re: Transformer Oil

08/09/2013 1:11 AM

Mineral oil is of much recent origin than vegetable oil. Vegetable oils have been in use as lubricants, creating light (Wick lamps) apart from culinary use since time immemorial. Using as an insulator in transformer is also of recent origin. transformer oils have to be tested periodically for free acidity. This free acidity is even more pronounced when vegetable oils are used, unless refined vegetable oils are used, which makes them even costlier. When free acidity increases, failure of transformers is even more frequent. However, vegetable oils could be used, as a transformer insulating oil, according to the information given by fellow members. In any case, vegetable oils per se are costlier and considering their shorter life they may not be cost effective.

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Transformer Oil

08/09/2013 10:32 AM

The cost of only one Mineral Oil spill is far greater than all the costs of using a highly refined vegetable oil without the Haz Mat liabilities. Also a Veg Oil spill is far less than one of Mineral Oil.

Life time costs of Vegetable Oil are much lower than Mineral Oil.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#17

Re: Transformer Oil

08/08/2013 9:44 AM

We use vegetable oil for both insulation and lubrication in hydroelectric plants, obviously with different formulations for each use. Although the vegetable oil more than mineral oil, the lifecycle cost is lower because we don't have to build secondary containment systems. The primary containment (transformer tank, bearing oil sump, etc.) is all that is necessary for an environmentally friendly fluid.

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#18
In reply to #17

Re: Transformer Oil

08/08/2013 1:22 PM

Peter T and pwr2thepeople:

Definitely! Jersey Central Power and Light, div of some big conglomerate power corp. uses vegetable oil for all new or replacement installations. They have used it to replace Mineral oil and PDB containing liquids in transformer. This is due to the environmental impact of Mineral Oil. One foreman once told me "What would you rather have on your lawn, salad dressing or a hazardous material?"

As a firefighter, I have been to many transformer fires and none of them had anything but vegetable oil.

GA for you both!

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#20
In reply to #18

Fires with Re: Transformer Oil

08/09/2013 12:46 AM

and the spectacularly bright fires, too , after the big bang

(happened to be seen out of the corner of my eye working on a roof top chiller a block away from an exploding TX in the evening)

How is the TX being cooled? At all with fans or GeoThermal groundloop pre-cooling-hybrid?

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#23

Re: Transformer Oil

08/09/2013 11:34 AM

I'm mildly stunned at the wide variety of absolute answers provided here. Many seem to focus on the mitigation costs of an oil spill. Only one mentioned that vegetable oil will go rancid (if untreated) but no one considered the possible problems of this warm food being consumed. What difference in oil spill mitigation costs will there be between mineral and vegetable oil made poisonous by some preservative. Nobody is considering the chemistry of either oil and winding insulation.

Both vegetable and mineral oils are successfully used in transformers today. Each has their limitations, advantages and disadvantages. If one was overwhelmingly better than the other, then that oil would be exclusively used.

IMHO The OP must do their own due dillegence to actually understand when to use each oil.

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#27

Re: Transformer Oil

08/12/2013 10:29 AM

I found a very good paper comparing the two oil types at http://www.uni-stuttgart.de/ieh/forschung/veroeffentlichungen/2008_Cigre_Vukovic_Application_of_vegetable_oil-based.pdf.

Very detailed, but readable for those familiar with the subject matter.

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