Sustainable Earth Coupling or Wind Milling?

hmm:

Nice attitude, too. But they are employed elsewhere as i applied this as cooling in industrial products testing cooling, saving 84% on a performance guaranteed 65% savings contract.

They ordered a second. That was 1996.

The thread:

you don't have much? or is there a wind systems reasonable application for $100,000 for 175 kwh production available?.

I don't have any.

Have you looked into barges anchored in rivers to generate your power?

What are you selling? This??↓

'cmon, yo bigga dan dat, Lyn....

but you almost formed a question.

we can wait.

However:

Earth coupling is simple WITHOUT THE HEATPUMPS of 1981 patents you posted here, that are the HIHGEST EER ahri raw datat VFD's in the industry:

Thank you for that advertising what even your HVAC co (not me, nor do I rep) can sell as a general dealer. (Engineered - 2008 ASHRAE in NY discussed, Contractor's Magazine 2004 Aug featured, lowest cost of ANY GTHP in per sq ft in schools and in the Federal Reserve Building and the largest surgical center.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What I have not seen is WITHOUT HEAT PUMPS/ nor CHILLERS and MORE SUSTAINABLE THAN SOLAR IS THIS:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

30 trenches) for AVG 566 MBTUh with deducting a little drag on the existing ventilation, to make-up, excuse me please.

240ft x 2ft wide x 8ft under and ~5 ft over, rough back-filled, 3 pipes installed/ea x 3/4" PE3408 sdr11 loops each ECL, gle trench conducting over 20,000 usable btuh at just 30f Ent Fluids... (simple bypass controller to not enter below 27f into the ground loops) ..

Heat exchanger(s) and all installed ~ $ 100,000. OK: you may be in NEng/CA @ $150,000.

good damp clay, 52 soil temps until some drop in winter

BONUS: Can (is done already) PRE-COOL air into a structure over 20-Tons net , easily @ under 50 watts per ton of total cooling

combined T'd off Hybrids such as found in your search at Dr. S. Kavanaugh, the Source, GeoThermal Hybrids... well just good late 90's reading. - similar to installations.

Perhaps, no promise, more LUCID 4 U in this OP Q and attempt at a simple and helpful consult of what is already in use and has been for over 3 decades, but that I just have not seen enough to be about my desired comparison: I meant to simply ask , as I see the first Q in mind was not in the first line of the OP - - -

What's an annual expense for the ~ whatever MGWatts per year of a windmill / all maintenance inclusive? -design pahse, sales phase, installation and projected repairs, say in 10 years? "I have a number for retrieving heat from ditches as net usable energy per $ 100.000 ." "and without attaching heat pumps more refer to as near-grade geothermal-- not in this comparrison question nor id GTHP ever referenced involved...

I was just not invited back - after I gave a number, then the wind MGW/yr could not compare...

-believed- and I am sorry, but I believed I posed some Q in the OP, that obviously needed clarity with some help from most replies. T's.

So

even to present other sustainable energy exchanges at "energy" meetings about that- of "sustainability" after mentioning a past tracked-data of how many btuh were obtainable from dirt for $ 100,000.oo,. has been for a few years now a 'sticky'...

-EXAMPLE GIVEN:

CONDITION-

From what has been tracked since 1983, and of particular HERE -but non-heat-pump, a simple ground loop energy exchange:

What I am meaning is about that FACT IN ORDER and about just in regards to a year of an average northern zone 5.5-to-6 hvac-referenced winter. - used for make-up air pre-heating, as one possible use. Peaks here experienced JAN 94 -22f below 0 for two nights, 6600+ deg days, balance points at 5f and 7f in geothermal discussions, avg 27-to-28 degree winter temps "as averages" -

Simply this OP (however convoluted, but not as twisted) was only about usable heat-to-be-exchanged (as described) just from 8ft deep damp clay ditches having those now very common PE 3408 sdr11 plastic 3/4" tubes of fluids with antifreeze. Since hands-on from 1980, it was only SEEN buried at 8ft deep and layered again in the rogh backfill, at about 5 ft deep, that settles to a 6ft over an 8ft deep exchanger by some design in 1991. On the 9 ways to do near-grade ground loops, my over-under layout as I drew in Corel and repasted to the national geo-exchange hand out is what you can now see at the top, where a U-loop horizontally is now a sideview of on pipe OVER another. -just been looking at that in installations a while.

- Installed since 1993 that way - but HERE in the consideration above, What $ per annual btuh is such able to be totalled as usable for and within a year ? -

NO HEAT PUMPS 'NEDED TO MAGNIFY' nor for to be involved with this considered repeatable- energy exchange by such an Earth-Collector-Loop available with sufficient differential in temperature-dT, to use.

Discussed in energy meetings as just as a ' sustainable ' source of heating energy to use where one can.

MACHINE:

ECL gle ditches and PE piping ONLY with a 10 hp circulator moving prop-glycol of ~ 34f freeze protection (~50% by vol) in to a second air-heat-exchanger-fin-coil (array, or one) to distribute heat to (say) incoming ambient make up air flowing into a building, -all mechanicals of sufficient order.

This very set up is in New Jersey in a school , but for the added feature of PRE-COOLING ambient make-up air intake into that building.

This has been use also in ice-melting bridges in Japan, quite a while.

Having a tracked number of btuh's at 550,000 to 600kbtu's/hour tracked for just $ 100,000. excavated and attached to a system of pump and air coil, akin to any other "free" circulated solar collection of energy in heat exchanger, this was called out as an Earth-Exchanger, Earth coupled Loop, ECL (gle- ground loop exchanger as found on the GTHP sites- again NO HEAT PUMPS for any part of the $/btu per year of this Original INTENDED POSTING of a comparative factual question:).

At aparticular energy meeting, however some excitment raced through my mind, all intentions were not cloak and dagger, but openly- to hopefully get some SOLID understanding about costs to power/ work-done for what $, for an R.O.I. of city projects being then the discussion in energy meeting(s).

- I did not even get to the credits and grants side which break the backs of probably mostly un-benefitted tax payers... who vote them in , indirectly, I have reason to understand that way,too. - Yes I profit from that 'credit' for Wind Solar and GT.

to compare to a question at an energy meeting that was coming to a close which discussed everything other than cost/MWH per year of an installed windmill for the city ( and more to be built, 2008 or so ):

DIRECT NON-HEAT-PUMP USE of The Heat-Source Beneath The Feet (tm 1993), within a budget of $100,000. and WITHOUT any other machine than a 'sustainable' exchange of Earth Energy, with a circulation by a pump; and the existing make-up air of a building pre-heating required of very cold air intake under (easily-exchanging heat) 40f, for instance to be compared to any use of other sustainables, to maintenance(s), i.e.) from the wind-er meetings.

Those public gatherings-? and since? - I have watched the "leaders" , in time being now a few years later, employed 'elsewheres'...

...

..."what should I spend a next" $ 150,000. on + maintenances each year to benefit what needed assistance to an energy using building for more than 100mgwh/yr?

OP Q asked:

What is the 10 year life-cycle and maintenance of what sized wind machine ALL INCLUSIVE to compare=== or but meant in terms of net paid out dollars after all credits...?

OP Q: What size KWH would it be to vertually equal the investment in 10 years to the very little maintenance on the Earth Coupled Loop- Earth Collector Living. (say even that @ $150,000. for use with any comm or planned residential community, then maybe adding other machines to the ECL ssytem. ( I know it has been done, and i have more cost data, espectively. )

2) Now let us observe the PRE-COOLING with this loop in 50-60-degree grounds...

[supposing more solutions/advantages than even direct solar, as IS USED ALREADY: reducing ambient air make up cooling equipment and maintenance costs, also balancing more so the ECL, gle (now in the news a few years) - blancing the affect of heating near-grade and other earth exchanges of energy that "dries conductivity to problematic proportions".]

OP Q: What cooling savings would 200, 300, 400,000 btuh bring to the 10 year life cycling a/c systems and chillers?

a) NO HEAT PUMPS nor such attached

b) sufficient temeprature differentials for preheating 0-45F and precooling ambient intakes for part of the summer

c) other freeze-protection uses

d) COMPARE; and that is all that is asked.

TOPIC is about - and other's facts in order, data, for such an above comparrison .

Q's answered: a .67 ratio of (US) $1,000's/100MGW-yr leaves as mentioned elsewhere above, 100mgwh/year for a windmill costing $ 150,000/ per annual 100 MGW production, 11 mph, avg though at 30% to 40% (!) from a couple distributors input.

GEO JP 2008 = JP76

I will clear up any as possible , feel free to send messages Q's - I understand voting 'off-topic' may mean more info needed, so why not engineer-up and ask. It works. i will work on explaining. ANYONE can do, sell, layout and implement for your own marketing, not mine.

again the temperature differentials work alone as direct Earth Energy Collector/Rejector Closed Loop - watching ground dampness -

ther are ditches in th ground today for hybrid energy exchanges.

They are called geothermal.

There are PE pipes. - you may read the spec above.

There is a circulator, for moving fluids to say a preheater - heat exchanger in a fresh air intake in a building which can be regulated to cool the fluid (yield that K thing called energy and Q for work and all that calc ) to meet COMMON groundloop criteria to allow our created energy to move from the Earth back into the plastic conducted to the fluid to be recirculated to the pre-heating heat exchanger...

just ask specifically.

Lyn is just 2 funny and I can not understand your particular question.

You might want to contact joe.fordham, if barges aren't your thing.

He said this once: "I have patented a device that increases the force of the wind unto infinity. It uses the principle of levers and can be made to equal the energy of an atomic explosion. Unfortunately I am unable to get an increased speed gearbox to handle this power without snapping the rotar shaft. I would like to have a box with a ratio of 1:3000 so that it will turn the generator at around 20,000 rpm.Anything less than this would be like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut, in reverse."

Here: Increasing Speed Gearboxes

Can you get your comments translated into rational statements?

The meaning of, "allow our created energy to move from the Earth back into the plastic conducted to the fluid to be recirculated to the pre-heating heat exchanger..." escapes me completely. I don't seem to be operating at your level of drug induced hysteria mental acuity irrational thought intelligence.

Maybe joe.fordham knows.

You're a real pickle.

hmm:

I see that question: Can't get...

sort of:

The difference in temperature between the INSTALLED ~ 100,000 ground loops in this country alone, is what allows created energy to MOVE all of its own.

I have tracked since 1983, very closely.

what is your next ON-THREAD question.

we EXTRACT heat , when? a) never. "WE" only move media and mass as such and the heat moves without our moving it. When that is understood, all else is academic.

Put an air exchanger with a starting ~ 30 degree fluid in an already required 20f day intake of air, and chill the fluid in the air HX to 25 and return it to a COMMON GT LOOP , ECL, in 45-60f dirt, and such that you can READ about since 1996 by Dr's of Engineering reports on already installed systems;

and then put that now re-warmed fluid from a controlled 25-to-30f back at the heat exchanger of the fresh air as a tempering system, although LOW-TEMP, still cfm x Tdiff x 1.085 or whatever, and those are the SUSTAINABLE BTUH's I can show extracted also in any common excavation for heat pumps: GHP

ask more.

you are doing fine.

Uhhhhhh...

Just what is the question, exactly? I sort of got lost in the gibberish.

who knows what Lyns q is.

Are you too unable to exact an idea of temperature differences that are between a poly pipe 8ft deep in warmer or cooler soil?

Do you have a real question?

Poly pipe (PEX) is self-insulating. You may want to use something different.

Thank you 129 for trying to see through- CONDUCTIVELY !

and NYCRAM- re: though the differentials have proven acceptable already, now to compare...

There is a DR. Steve Kavanaugh all over the net in hybrid gt, source magz geo, efficiency seer articles, etc since the early90's demonstrating documentation right to the % of PE conductivity and efficiency is his business. Now on green- advisor sites.

In a seminar with the late Dr John Jones and a mentor PE Michael Rice, their reviewing commercial PE loops , they found not only it conducts well- since the late 1970's but pipes dug up from the early 60's look "new" on farm-well ssytems (even late 50's, I am told).

But with the sdr-11 160 psi and above listed the 3/4" even conducts close-enough as well as PE 1.1/4" used in nearly 3000 ton installs.

Forte Polk, Knox (I consulted on) , Libraries, schools, and a largest surgical center in the US and the Fed Resv, all depend on this conductivity as near-grade geothermal.

But all I did was call around , and being in a 'hot-bed' state of PE conductivity, I tracked in-installed actual field results from 52 to 56 deg soils, and loops as cold as 66 degrees all summer- cooling dominant schools, to "overheated 106F returning closed loop fluids in undersized gtloops gle, ECL's . That's all. And when a ponds app process cooler was sold and repeat sold... I looked closer at the 1983 data to date and only since ~ 2008 compared to WHAT other solar and wind 'sustainables' IF NO HEAT PUMP was tied in.

A 1995 cooling of an office to 79-80 degrees in 95 degree days with 3200 ft of 3/4" in 12 x 245 ft boreholes was interesting to me. -measure 7+ net total cooling tons used.

The absorption in vertical boreholes CONTINUOUSLY with 2.4 (below reynolds)-3.2 GPM in 3/4" was 46 btuh/ft to 43 btuh/ft with the equipment receiving EW 31F to EW 32.5F respectively, (1 pump experiment, then 2 pumps left on) in an undersized for my 34 performance minimum, that had 25.5 degre fluid (with getting the 46 btuh/ft) and better-28.5F for "freeze-reduction" having the 43 btuh/ft of borehole absorption.

Ditches of 2ft wide and 7ft x 4.5ft rough backfilled damp clay were "drained" of all available usable non-freezing-the-dirt heat transfer with 3-lines x 500ft OVER-UNDER layout, - and at a constant energy transfer to 34F(leaving loop) of 16,000 to 17,000 btuh to the colder pipes in ~ cooled 52f to 47f soil and cooler soil. Thoose ran the supporting energy flow for a "size o26" unit on a 19kbh compressor called a "2-ton" by salespeople.

" My system works. I have been watching the tube air temperature for five years now and have some data. My lowest tube air temperature in winter is near 40º F. The highest summertime temperature was near 70º F. The air tube temperature only reached those extremes when the outside temps were excessive. The average soil temp in this part of the country is 53 degrees and my air tube temps also averaged out about the same. The deeper the tubes are buried in the ground the less fluctuations in temperature they experience. As stated earlier at 8 feet the soil temp will vary 12 degrees either side of average (41º in the winter, 65º in the summer). The tube air tracks that temperature shift.

There is no problem with mold or Radon in my system. I've tested my systems for Radon and the results indicated the tube air Radon level is the same or near that of outside air.

As indicated earlier, 90 % of the air tube design and installation is to insure that they are drained properly. As a result there are no mold problems in properly installed air tubes.

Contact Info Removed - CR4 Admin

Larry Larson

http://www.earthairtubes.com/

We have continuously operating Earth Air Tube systems that are 25 years old. The air coming through them is as fresh today as the day they were installed."

in Col Ohio at 10ft depths in SEPTEMBER, we found 61 annd 62f Earth Temps.

Already in NE Ohio the Earth tenperature of standing loops at 6ft depths is 47f, little snow, (in the wet,rain-belt,snow-belt), just reading recirculated fluids in PE sdr9 3/4' tubing underground. A WF compressor change out, likely from air entrapped in the "pressurized loop" design of others of the mid 90's..., foundair in fluids requiring a simple fix with a reservoir T'd off inlet before pumps too automatically purge the ground loop GHP fluids, improving the pump circulation and Water Furnace output and efficiency...

-just no where near as efficient without any heat pump / Earth Coupled Air Tube superiority, where possibly fitting-

Here in Ohio a few are moldy and radon seeps in too much.

Larry Larson, your website seems to be down. Do you have a new one? I'm doing research on earth tubes and your design stands out but seems to work well. Is there a way to contact you to ask some questions? Yury

"The question" is what got him, "black balled from the wind-er meetings" so it won't be forthcoming.

I fear we may need an "intervention" here. He's in orbit and may not be able to come down on his own.

This statement, "Put an air exchanger with a starting ~ 30 degree fluid in an already required 20f day intake of air, and chill the fluid in the air HX to 25 and return it to a COMMON GT LOOP , ECL, in 45-60f dirt, and such that you can READ about since 1996 by Dr's of Engineering reports on already installed systems" rivals joe.fordham's mindless rant.

your fears are unfounded, again.

This IS the question:

Why should we as a city-wide community focus on all the offerings of a BEST wind energy installation ($$$ and 30 -50 year ROI's) and additional first year maintenance, for some areas and structures

which are already

on sufficient land to allow for PRE-COOLING and PRE-HEATING and even WAREHOUSE heating above freezing,

by

"bringing the Earth up to the project" since building or the retrofit wont be underground:

EARTH COLLECTOR LOOP systems ?

Who's behind all the credits born by the backs of the rest that will not benefit at all, in those circumstantial areas?

You cease to be amusing. Well, you were never amusing, just incoherent.

Good luck with the ditches.

dunno who kicked your cat today, but we hope you feel better in the morning.

now back to the simple two-points to be compared:

Why was that so amazing? Lyn failed to see I was not talking about some energy generator, but extracting the use of the Earth's available heat and cooling exchange...

now is it all confusing because those who do design and install any earht coupled systems are not commenting?

Sooner or later Engineers will only specify a number of BTUH's for a project of this sort and leave it up to the performance contracting of the Excavators to sell the required BTUh's as specified , much like any utility company...

I AM ASKING FOR TO COMPARE : pre heating and pre cooling near usable 11 months a year, as if

like,

similar to:

as one has built underground, but not built underground, yet receiving benefits with many Earth-Coupled advantages (where it is fit for the job of energy acquisition)

to only be comparing to

some cost-effective and realized first year wind energy system that also produces some KWH average production

now that is point one and

point two and to be compared at say ~ under 150,000. first year costs. ?

Well I can number the lines of the description.

I hope Lyn is reading you too, as confusing himself with some other than allowing heat to move out of or into a temperature difference.

Skipper did understand I was presenting LOW COST COOLING and SUSTAINABLE HEATING descriptions.

OK

I will put it as I did in the "anyone else use ECL Earth Coupled Loops, gle- ground loop exchangers for PROCESS COOLING"

Skipper mentions 500w/net cooling ton.

I am referring to under 100 watts per net cooling ton.

Other engineering firms for a decade have used in schools this pre-cooling, but not for ice-melting and pre-heating in that co. in mind. So I ask

because of so many very-long payback city-wide-maintenance and repaired windmills:

WHO really is producing some 160 kwh / per every 10 hours daily averaging / 10 months or so a year of net usable energy for under $150,000 cost to a building owner.

and in a first years maintenance inclusive, ? , all engineering visits from the concept to the 365th day of operation? Who? Where?

it is application/situation specific.

I'm gonna have a go at it...I think what JP76 is asking is that: If a building that already has a big enough footprint can be retro-fitted with geothermal heating/cooling why are we looking for an alternative power source when the earth's heat is already there for the taking?

This house that I built some years ago for $3 million for a man, I'll call him Mike the Crazy German, who was very far sighted in his ideas.

http://jackiemayportroyalnaples.com/941galleon.htm

It has 4 totally stainless steel air conditioning systems hooked up to two salty water wells drilled to a depth of roughly 250 feet on opposite property lines which pump water through the 'compressors' on the roof which then transfer the heat to/from the freon system hooked to the air handlers inside the house. It is of course German made and flawless in it's operation and you can hang meat in this house! Cost for entire HVAC geothermal system including the wells was under $100K.

I don't live in the city.

Out here we talk in plain terms, albeit with a southern slang.

If my neighbor wants to know what the wind load forces are on his new pole barn roof, it sounds something like this to me:

Hey WJMFIRE, what are the wind load forces on my new pole barn roof. Amazingly, I understand what he wants.

Your questions don't read that way. Is that simple enough?

This is some sort of a bait thread... seeing how many of us can he get to follow along, teasing us into biting some more.

I don't need any more exercise.

What say even $ 150,000.oo

can buy over 160 kwh of usable energy with a wind system, all expenses in a first year, inclusive.

Earth Coupled Loops ECL, gle, WITHOUT heatpumps, at easily controlled temperatures can allow for a sustainable exchange of over 560,000 btuh for that dollar of the first year, up and running and maintained.

Applications : ambient-Air required to be heated on cold days that can use the GTX- globalThermXchange(tm) ; and a bonus of for also use with pre-cooling controlled.

we put in a geo thermal unit to heat - 800 feet- long 8 feet wide and 8 feet deep-4 lines, total cost 23,000 if which Government paid 17,000- I find your number confusing

not only that but that price included the heat exchanger and ductwork

there are a few as you and there are a few more responding with answers instead of simply not trying to -

for some ? - not willing to ask at what remark I mean something about.

What in wind systems offers over 160 KWH avg annual productivity, even just 10 hours a day,

compared to what under $150,000.oo can buy for pre-heating and pre-cooling and other energy exchanges from the Earth?

(This may be why plumbers have so many more successful GeoThermal installations in the early years, since they only remarked on the question at hand: Where's the piping go.)

I think you are trying to re-invent the wheel. The machine you envision has already been marketed. It is a Turbo-Encabulator www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLDgQg6bq7o

Why do you guys bother?

We're massikistick?

hmm

chillers have circulated fluid in the PE piping in 3 to 12 ft deep ditches.

ditches get cold.

earth yields heat energy.

repeated for in 30 ditches that are being used for heat pumps but total over 550,000 btus/hr with a loop of over 30f with 15% methanol or 20% glycol.

with more glycol can be associated with -20f air entering a building, air over a fancoil, circulator returns fluid through loop and cooling the fluid to a controlled temperature, WITHOUT HEAT PUMPS, but with a bypass to keep above 26f enering the ditch...

heat is exchanged,

and for under 150,000 in expensive states with appropriate soil condiotions

or

Ohio near $ 100,000. cost installed:

I have a question:

What wind systems can produce that usable amount of just the heat energy exchange alone for the average current costs to install the Earth Coupled Sustainable Loop ?

any on the thread? any using ground loops who actually counted the Btuh exchanges?

You might want to look into CHP (combined heat&power) using the ORC (organic rankine cycle) with one of Duponts new earth friendly working fluids.The most efficient cooling system I know about is the adsorption cooling cycle.Adsorption chillers are almost maintenance free and only have a few moving parts.They use water as the working fluid,and require a source of heat.And using solar to heat the water or waste heat from,let's say an engine's exhaust&cooling system that runs a generator.You need between 60-90 deg C. heated water if your using zeolite,or 60-70 deg C. if your using silica gel adsorbers.You only need a small circulating pump.For example a 180 ton unit only needs around .5 KW.Go to this site: www.greenchiller.biz.They are mostly in Europe,and the US is slow to accept this technology for various reasons that are pretty obvious.It would devastate the present business of HVAC,refrigeration&cooling.So all those pipes? think about it!

Thank you skipper:

SUSTAINABLE is the key phrase- like solar or wind or oceanic greeni things.

Although I am not tree hugging (today), as I have worked on Double-Effect Absorption Chillers [ 3 in one building] -- I am asking if others have simply used the 45-60 degree-f soil for process cooling, and in closed loop.

The pipes are so very commonly installed today, for small applications of say 30- to 100 tons of pre-cooling or process, and using even-seen under 3 hp for 50 tons and more, I wondered if others are understanding how simple a particular cooling is.

POINT of FEW MOVING PARTS:

a good one for the ground ECL Earth Coupled Loop systemic cooling- just the air movement ALREADY in a building or process(fluid movement) system and one variable, or 2 pumps: small , then large, or multi-tap motor and a contactor.

I have not found so much 'ease of use' re:

Absorption chilling with distilled water has a very HIGH maintenance record [Ysaki Double Effect, and with the tech from OEM training, and paid for. There were important regards for chemicals. This system operates well but WOW! - more the narrow margins of controls settings! I measured for 50-ton systems yielding ~ 48 tons net, over "90-tons" of natural gas heating equivalent burning is required, and a 100-Ton cooling tower and more maintenance(s) for operating in 90f days over 85-90% rel-HUM ambient days. - this was my experience in early 2004 in counties with high rain fall.

What I am asking is who else has experienced the ~ ECL cooling or building pre-cooling, NOT using more than circulators added?

Using the ratio of energy projected as retrievabble in a years time over/ -per $ 1000's of installed dollars to: annual megawatts sugg by the wind mill generation,

-per- 150,000 dollars installed and producing electrical energy,

excluding ~ 2.3 cent per kwh penalty averaging for maintenance and repairs in the next 10 years, ( I suppose presuming no ut'y rate increasing )

I arrived at a .67 "rating" of related-to MegWH by 'per' the installed dollar

OP- Answered:

a same amount of work compared (but in heat usage) to a given $ 150,000. ECL Earth Coupled loop used WITHOUT heat pumps, just fluid circulation to a heat exchanger say in make-up air in to a building or paint booth , alone, ---

ranges from .7 (more usable energy per dollar per year) to over 1.0; or ~25% to over 35% more energy 'exchanged' where it can apply, for the buck: compared to current efficiently installed wind generation of work-energy.

Run out of meds again, eh?

skipper sees

HR:

Q#1)

What if YOU could have for under $150,000. a system of pre-heating , (say means 'for instance')

well over 550 MBH to 600 MBH anytime in Northern climates winter kicks in / instead of pushing other fuels for the exchange of energy PORTION that could come SUSTAINABLY just from an Earth Coupled Loop (ECL,gle)?

WITHOUT HEAT PUMPS

2) WITHOUT as one asked 'coupled to wind' ; but compared to a $110k-$150k wind investment if it were used for the same relative pre-heating , say, make-up air?

so what is your question. is it how do we get over 1/2 million btu's sustainably-as-solar, but not from solar collectors, only - from dirt, Earth Collectors-Loops (ECL, gle's)? (and well under @ $150,000. installed, first year - all mechanical and engineering reviews/PM inclusive)

or

How do we run 30 to 50 tons of cooling for many things from just a 3hp circulataor to an Earth-Collector (NO CHILLERS NO HEAT PUMPS)?

or

have you set up those 100 kwh wind energy systems for more than $ 150,000. /first year maintenance inclusive?

GA from me

"'Bottle? He says he doesn't understand what he's saying either."

_{With apologies to the late Spike Milligna, the well-known typing error.}

Question - Are you asking about this,

Answer - Geothermal Heat pumps are a low maintenance and more efficient way to heat and cool.

Question - Are you suggesting that this type of system would carry a price tag of $100,000.00 to $ 150,000.00?

Answer - This can be done for much less than $100,000.00 of course you could spend as much as you want on something like this.

Question - and are you asking if a system like this can be coupled with Wind Power?

Answer - You can use wind power to move the fluid or you can use it to generate electricity to heat or cool (depending on the size and qty. of wind generators you use).

NO HEAT PUMPS

as Lyn posted my copy-righted material,

though, if you DO do that as you have depicted,

(and thank you for asking)

please look at the diagram of

those who patented Full-Coindensing-Priority 100% HW in COOLING mode in 1981

- and instant on demand HW production and Dual compressors for 3-staging and now have the highest blended EER 42+ in the industry, which are found in the first net-zero school in the country, and ~ 12% less costly per sq ft/ per school year in 2008 reviews to any others. Yes I am just a design consulting promotor of also CM, WF, Trane as well as Hydro-Temp VFD GeoThermal systems

A Toledo engineering firm spec'd and has already in for 3 years 32 ditches 7ft deep one-pass x 500ft long x 3ft wide for a 120 ton school.

I am just referring to the ditches only in the 45-60f soil for heat exchanges with process cooling to building air make-up pre heating, that is available IF it is applicable

and comparing to what wind system coming close to such ECL net results for the buck.

Hmmm!

System GT ? - Thank you also:

and well under the price of a "65-ton" , I still do 3-to-4 "ton 2-to-4zn- HVAC-GT-HW retrofits under $9,000. - or plus an $ 8,000. to $12,000. loop for with additional full-condensing instant HW usage / additional loop requirements. (not just DeSuperheater- little HW generation, unless limited to that.

The loops I describe (or tried to) are over-under layered at 7-12 ft deep on the bottom and layered on top at ~ 2.1/2 to 3ft above the bottom row(s), and at least 1.1/2ft below frost lines on the rough back fill, which allows for settling lower in to the Earth.

(( no heat pumps in the discussion, no chillers, NO REFRIGERANTS ))

In the continuing search for intelligent life, it seems that lyn will need to look elsewhere...

Things seem to have gotten out of hand here.

I went back to the original post.

Please sir, what is your question? None here can answer a question which is not asked.

As far as I can see, you asked if you should blow a hundred thousand dollars on a wind generation system, or if there would be a better return on a geothermal system. Is that right?

I think thats how you can translate it!

original Q)

About spending $ ~ 100,000.oo

Then on what should I blow $100,000.

[on a total designed and tested and maintained]

completed-project,

1st year maintenance inclusive, [[ include all engineering reviews, tech visits, etc. ]]

About spending $ ~ 100,000.oo

to generate ANY FORM OF WORK/Electrical or mechanical--- WITH A WIND GENERATION SYSTEM ?

on what [[ what will I get for the buck? 50kwh system, 100 kwh system? What would we end up with in avg 3-to-11 mph/ of a very variable wind area ]] ?

ahemm: Lyn posted the copyrighted material, and it had nothing to do with posting 2 q's . NO HEAT PUMPS.

"selling" as you and all do all the time, is here in the above expanded 1st question: restated as requested. It is re: JUST ECL, gle vs. investing in some equally useful work product with a wind system under $ 150,000.oo invested.

Just want to see: ROI's to a task, 1st or to the 10th year and the REPLACEMENT year of an "energy saving sustainable product" comparing ECL to Wind.

after reading your Wind Systems (Windshine I can follow) I hope to get the KWH/dollar and ROI.

Some experience on a 75kwh system has led to total replacement in under 10 years, and only a home-owner would in DIY, having extreme mechanical interests, enjoyed the benefits. I have seen much better than that, though.

Thanks again.

in another thread we can all address the off-topic: heat-pump geothermal, vertical and horizontal, as the discussion was described as situational to and only about ditches. Perhaps start a new thread on such, I ask politely, as you have no knowledge of my efforts to just have fun with sustainables.

The "we all knows" I have found recently on several sites, can benefit to explore more than seen in the threads. -Learning from all, is my disposition. But not letting a few attempt to miss the message without questioning the messanger, is my (polite) struggle I have to improve upon, I KNOW.) - Too, as not just myself , but others already have changed to continue doing much better in ROI's, since mostly in the later 1990's. One such Dr Steve Kavanaugh: Hybrids, [search] source gt, and further 'real EER's that dehumidify' .

Please provide us with a complete cost/benefit analysis on geothermal installations in comparison with other methods for heating/cooling given local prices for electricity and natural gas by region?

[[I see your specification and some part of a question; but did you pick up on the NO HEAT PUMPS mentioned? ]]

Cost analysis realworld , all of the first year: $ near $100,000. installed, and REGIONALLY ADDRESSED CA or MD @ $ 150,000. as you have read that. ]]

[[ DITCHES, were the described method, so this following has no bearing on the topic, but it is near $ 2400.oo/ton or ~` 10,000 absorption btuh's average around OH. ]] Please... vertical wells... [[[ another discussion ]]]

[[COVERED: ]] excavate, trench, backfill, ... A circulation pump is your "extreme" part of the ROI, unless un-maintained glycols for the pre-heating MakeUpAir system in below-10-to- -10f winters, etc. go on and lead to more costly glycol replenishing ]]] ...ROI.

Given your general disposition towards the other members of this forum ...

[[ and you read the jump-started retorts with confusion and no answer to the first question ? COMPARED to WHAT wind system , what would we get for $ 100,000.]]

I'm not surprised that you have not been invited back to meetings called for the express purpose of exploring wind powered electrical generation

[[ well you need be corrected: nice presumption, but still inaccurate: The question when asked at those meetings got an answer: "We have found --- kwh, for about a hundred thousand dollars, and for averaging so many hours for so many months out of the year.....___________. And that was answered IN THE FIRST REPLY to the question above, politely delivered based on NOT CONJECTURED HIDDEN AGENDAE, but just $ 100,000.oo as it was to reflect on selling Jacob's Wind systems of 1981, I quoted then , when those tax credits were 50%...]]

[[I will displace the following: as it is unfounded, and unintended, and undone: ]] ...hijack [[ my general alternative energy, with a new speaker, looking for different ROI's, as you do....]] meetings about wind power with [[ their ]] geothermal methods for reducing energy usage, ...

I can [[ unknown to you ]] understand their dilemma.

[[ alleviating such 'dilemma' by not answering my calls to meet again, and in the ALTERNATIVE ENERGY FORUM, was simply a certain proponent of the wind systems for the city funding being asked to really show how many non-benefits needed to be compared. That is all. As I have been cornered for ROI's, so they were. ]]

What results, work, use, etc. do I get for $100,000 or even $ 150,000?

ANY alternative, near-equally sustainable system of usable pre-heating, pre-cooling, or in another thread: Process Cooling, compared to others too. and I see I have to keep writing: NO REFRIGERATION, NO HEAT-PUMPS --

this is written politely, as you must be told, and lol with lyn's razzing, etc... slack and since only a very few are having that kind of fun , it can be tolerated.

Well put, BSR

read and saw your remarks and some more "squashers"

I will improve the sentences. Any Q's on the ROI's above, then just ask.

Have you searched the Dr.Kavanaugh, Source, hybrids Geothermal?

A TETCO literature of 1990 had what he describes in the hands of dealers when printed then. (not then, TETCO is of the current owners: Enertec/Hydron/GeoComfort, of IL)

NO HEAT PUMPS in this thread bearing the posted Q vs windmills.

And if you would like a mill, I can quote 85 and 100 MWH 50 and 60 ft dia.

The ROI on the $ 23,000 installed (no tax credit) 30-ton "chiller" for process 94 lw to 81 return water, cooling equipment from the pond-loop (11ft deep, 52 ground, 6gpm run-off spring in the pond..., etc,

was LOWEST FIRST COST to the then bid 25 hp chiller of a competitor.

When the buyer was Q'd by them, he showed the 'performance guaranteed, no money down, installed and tested a first week for proving at least 66% savings over electrical refrigeration, : withing 10% , take 10% off the installed cost; and over 15% off of performance, NO CHARGE TO REMOVE THE SYSTEM, or keep it at 55% of the contracted price.'

RETROFIT ROI's on a gas heated dome for rec- tennis, etc, in winter:

TODAY's n-GAS ~ 6 years, over 550,000 net usable btuh's averaged during operation in weather of ~ 12f below ground temps, as a start. ($110,00. installed sustainable gle, ECL - no heat pumps) for proposed to a golf course.

Then credit + all the 100% HW -OnDemand (lyn posted above) 100% heat-recovery and some HVAC-GHP's, and get the 10% tax credit on all the contracting, distribution improvements, as only a PORTION of the need, (20% 30%, retrofitting to existing) and take the savings for other budgeting.

Energy Star life cycles had to be "picked' at 15 years, but some OEM's (in schools to homes) don't have all the 'board problems' etc, and continue running over 30 years later. Even any vfd-Compressor in GHP of Water:Water OF ANY OEM, Energy Star rated (ETL, and /or AHRI, meeting all '3rd party' spec's) can have a couple common 3-way valves added for all the GT-HVAC-HW retrofitting to two-pipe fancoils and consoles AHU's , etc,. as desired, quite ROI-efficient.

At least 4 OEM's: Variable 3rd Party rated ahri raw data- EER's near and over 42. (not seer) and ETL current: most Efficient-

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=most_efficient.me_geothermal_heat_pumps

EER's over the 40's are 'blended- low to medium speed ' ahri raw data, Jan 2013

PW it is hard to understand your post. Maybe if you added a few of these. [[[ ]]]] ___________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Example:

HED 2 Dah Crib ~~~~~ Den Habbaa [[Beer]] _______ Den [[~~Wind~er dowwwn and **[]~ goe 2 Bed!

C its like Dis!

The most important thing to remember is whatever you do, no matter how tempted you are, avoid all OCD tendencies and ~~~~~[[ Don't press the spell check ]]]!!!

to use the quote from Lyn,

"(This consultation was pro bono)"

So, borrowing exclamation marks from Andy Germany is out of order, then? That's so disappointing.

Fliny, a pist thet I can hinderstand! I hole-horridly gift you a GA fer this-un! You writ luck Mozark compositioned.

Skip, M, B:

Found from 85kva and 100kva wind installers some answer to the posted $150,000 Q, today.

IF i can estimate

2000 hours of admitting an annual average of 20 MWH of Earth-Collector Loop ECL--

(if on high speed, typical 4 to 5 ton with excavation, absorption near 35,ooo btuH, 24/7 operation, as a comparison)

then an ECL, gle energy transfer to an AHU of sorts for make-up air pre-heating (more so below a 35f ambient) could be compared to a wind systems as this:

100 MWH,

installed $ 150,000. [[the first question of the post : What for $100k ]]

(est found in a couple of calls today) with a ~ $.015/kwh adder for annualized maintenance, etc., must go to grid (told that e-ut'y-power contracts are at too low/30% of retail total billing sell-backs).

5 GTX to :1 Wind

100 MWH in a year , conservatively realized; and but IF the wind generation works in 11+ mph averaged winds per area for a 60-ft tower with ~62ft blade dia.

installed, 5 ECL's x' in a row at one job, of 4ft wide ditches,

x 240ft x over under 8ft-5ft, having 4 pipes each (495ft loops, net finish)

with 3 standard flowcenters, but using 6) pumps as 2/5th hp circulators

[[ could handle 6x3ft ditches, only 18 pipes ea., symmetrical designing ]]

@ 4 retail "4 ton prices" GT

with

well under retail $25k excavation T&M and machine.

and retail the rest under 5x's the known typical, even at "5-ton-sized" GT-HVAC arrangements

and AHU coil installs using the loop-FlowCenter -under 3 hp circulation

would easily leave a sales commission available @under $ 90,000.oo

(est over 2000 hours: 100 MWH for Direct, net-Heat Energy)

ROI's would be also, not limited to, based on vs various fuels for make-up air heating or other usable heating systems that could hybrid with an ECL.

Maintenance is the glycol and circulator and distribution. NO HEAT PUMP (unless added for a contract with a tax credit-advantage and heat-recovery, and more advantages).

Huh!

#6

My work here is done.

OK.

Now I'll work on getting the read out better.

Saving 84% for a customer can't be all that bad... + no refrigeration PM.

Now that is the most coherent thing you have written on this thread all day! The drugs must be wearing off! I can understand savings to customer - good and lower maintainance is good.

and wich part of the other posters did you miss?

Since you can read, please find the question which is already answered by just contacting 2 windmill installation-distributors.

Did you do the homework assignment?

search HYBRIDS, Dr Kavanaugh, Geothermal source publication?

I hope that helps your confusion.

let us know of your careful review, as a tech...

This thread is complete, and the savings are sure.

Good night, and unsubscribing to start another thread you may question...

I can understand the other posters just fine.

A word of advice "pro bono" You won't sell a thing if you can't communicate 3 things, what you are selling, what benefit your product offers to the customer, and the cost.

Unless the consumer is as inept as you appear to be are

a second bonus bit of advice "pro bono"

Organize your ideas, Get your facts straight and figure out what additional information you need , Do a little research online to see if you can find some of the information yourself. (you will be amazed at what you will find), At this point write down any information that you are unable to find online and spend some time thinking about, developing and writing down your questions (Use Spell Check!) Then get online and ask your questions. CR4 is full of people waiting to answer and if necessary do a little research to answer your questions "pro bono". This is how a "few" of the people do it here on CR4.

If everyone did this we would have a few less "Thread Wrecks" like this whopper you provided for us. It does make for a few laughs though.

Unfortunately, you probably have a legitimate question that you would like answered but because of your inablility to communicate it clearly it has been a waste of time for you and the users on CR4.

Just a thought. . . . If you ask a question or post a thread and by the end of it you are berating and arguing with other posters. . . . Then you probably either asked an un intelligible, un thought out question or are un willing to recieve good advice, wisdom, or you don't want the right answer. . . . Hmmm!

Regards!

I think this 'threadwreck' rant was a question of why our gov't, national and local, and our utility companies continue to invest 'our' money into solar panels and windmill projects with little or long term ROI when there is a more efficient means of harvesting the energy absorbed by the earth. He has a problem expressing himself without using the same type of obfuscation that our politicians use when they push their agendas.

Our "friend" JP wants to know why he/we can't just bury a couple of miles of plastic pipe in trenches cut into the ground, then circulate some heat transfer fluid through it, and use it instead of a refrigeration cycle to cool coils in an air handler.

JP, the answer lies in the term known as the "quality" of the heat/coolth. It's really tough to transfer heat between media when there's very little temperature difference between them. That's why we use heat pumps to "amplify" the amount of energy by raising or lowering the temperature difference between the media. Sorry JP, it's just that way, it's really tough to break those damn thermodynamic laws!

A note to the more rational CR4 community, look out your window tonight and observe that bright orb in the sky, it really does have an influence on certain people who roam the earth.

Oh:

:

Just a couple decades of the similar ground loop heat sink and source and hybrid direct exchanges...

Additional projects of interest:

Norton Pediatrics (Louisville, KY)

Flaherty Primary School (Ekron, KY)

**Richardsville Elementary (Bowling Green, KY)

Bristow Elementary (Bowling Green, KY)

EKU-New Science Bldg (Richmond, KY)

UK-Huguelet Drive Steam project (Lexington, KY)

CMTA New Office (Louisville, KY)

Henry Moss Middle School (Bowling Green, KY)

Warren East Middle School (Bowling Green, KY)

Drakes Creek Middle School (Bowling Green, KY)

Valley High School (Louisville, KY)

Taylor Regional Hospital (Campbellsville, KY)

Harrison Memorial Hosp Wound Care Cntr (Corydon, IN)

East Jessamine Elementary School (Nicholasville, KY)

Pikeville Medical Office Building (Pikeville, KY)

**First Net Zero School in Kentucky

Perhaps this link will suffice: http://www.masonequipment.com/index_files/Page426.htm