Anyone Else Used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What Size?

...trollin'

...trollin'

...trollin'

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U 2 funny 2 !

just simplifying the remarks in sustainable (AS ASKED) to half a discussion on Earth Coupled Loops.

But if I were all about only using refrigeration and designing only for those (?) 'benefits' that come from OEM's of such...

I would probably shut down hybrid discussions of process cooling for under 100 watts per net usable ton , also.

Last I heard they use earth coupled exchangers to gain and not to get rid of "heat".

Google heat pump and you know what I mean.

Where is the cooling needed? Do you not make use of waste energy?

New Zealand relies a lot on geothermal power stations, as does Iceland.

Yes and they cool their legs on their glaciers!

I am not sure I undertood the process cooling alright!

Don't worry about that.

Oh I see!

http://cr4.globalspec.com/member/67621/JP76

http://geopros.org/

http://cr4.globalspec.com/thread/85889/Sustainable-Earth-Coupling-or-Wind-Milling

Warning: Incoherent writing in those sites!

Floating-energy-barge-free-zones, one hopes.

Too cool! or Warm!

GEO-EARTH - anything below grade:

re: this thread is about the geo-exchanges at say, 3 to 18 ft depths in ditches; and horizontal boring 8ft to 14ft depths; and vertical boring to about a depth of only 480ft, of designs and installs done.

Near-grade, "higher" geothermal. Process cooling COOLING that is a direct Earth-Coupled exchange, no refrigeration, to using refrigeration/towers, etc as hybrids, etc.

Guru, Idea:

I have a couple flat answers, but I looked at it this way since 1996:

if the dirt is 50-55 for most the summer at 12 feet to 18 feet deep below grade (rem from as Dr John Jones seminar, Dayton, Ohio mentioned June 1980),

then what 85 to 115f degree process leaving fluid could be cooled?

Since then many notes are on the web about dry ground conditions and pond applications for closed loop heat exchanges.

searches for HYBRID GEOTHERMAL, Dr, Kavanaugh, the Source , etc have more.

It saved my process cooling client 84% instantaneously-net over a 30-T chiller (25hp) replacing first stage cooling (can do all the cooling , too) @ a high horsepower of using a 3hp circulator instead of a chiller.

JP,

I think that you have a point and I even think that what you propose is feasible. As much as the ground is a undepletable heat source further down it is also a unlimited heat sink a couple of feet/meters below the surface.

I have to correct myself from further up where I said its more for heating.

Wine cellars coms to mind and old mines that provide a cool environment all year round.

So you are saying you installed a system that cools the first stage in underground pipes and saves the client a chiller unit and ex amount of energy that does not have to be spend on cooling?

I searched for Hybrid Geothermal and what I read makes it sound like its a well established idea and only limited by the imagination of the engineer and the costs.

A personal word if you allow, you seem to leave gaps in your sentences which makes the understanding of same very difficult. You maybe need to employ a bit more caution when writing here. You only have a couple of minutes to edit a post. I myself do a lot of mistakes with my English and also typing and not being able to correct some of them hurts.

Lately a lot here are forced to make up the text in Word to not loose it with a system error. This would allow you to correct grammar mistakes. Maybe worth thinking about.

I wish you all the best with your business and maybe somebody comes up with some experience in your respective field of work.

The ground might be an "infinite" heatsink but it has a relatively high thermal resistance. I use a geothermal heat-pump at home and can tell you that the temperature around the pick up coil does change when you retrieve or inject heat.

This means that while your ground is at 15C when you dig, its local temperature will rise when you pass the warm water in the pipes. The increase will depend on the surface area used.

Before investing in a full size system, install a hundred meter loop and run some of that hot water at a rate proportional to what you intend in the final application. Note that the results will be slightly better that in the full scale system because of the higher ratio of conduction surface (volume) to heat input.

Using a chiller to increase the delta T might help. The final result might be better than cooling towers or air cooled chillers, especially under warm climates.

Finally, make sure that the cooling fluid is safe in case of a leak. The hidden loop could leak for years before you find it. By this time you may have an environmental nightmare.

Regards,

It is difficult to imagine this thread was created by anything other than a random technical phrase generator program.

So I would possibly, not surely, believe

some are not using any Earth-coupled practical closed loop process cooling for clients under ~ way-under 100 watts per net usable ton?

If you have, please ignore the "squashers" to share your results with the engineering community.

Your location listed as "Northern OHIO" would, I think, lead most people to expect you to be fluent in English. I don't like to criticize, but your use of incomplete/incomprehensible sentences leads me to suspect that either English is for you a recently acquired second language, you dropped out of school well before high school, or you are incredibly lazy.

The combination of your 'location' with the text of your posts makes all of this appear as a very poor, thinly veiled advertisement for your product and/or services.

I suggest that it might be worth your while to hire someone well educated in the English language to edit your posts before submitting them to a forum where most participants are well educated!

Is that a no?

"Anyone Else Used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What Size?"

Is that a no?

"Anyone Else Used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What Size?"

It was neither a 'yes' nor a 'no' answer to any question. It was rather a suggestion trying to get you to see that your manner of writing is not successfully communicating your ideas or questions to many of us here at CR4. Many of us here are of retirement age; some still working, others not so much. (I retired from my first profession in 1995, but am still working nearly full time.) It is common for people in this age group to have difficulty filling in the missing words in incomplete sentences, and we definitely don't care for the shorthand used by teenagers typing on their phones.

To answer your question, no, I have not used an Earth Coupled Loop for process cooling. I don't know anyone who has used an Earth Coupled Loop for process cooling.

On the other hand, it is an interesting concept, which is why I read the post in the first place. I'm always interested in learning new or new-to-me concepts, even when I have no immediate use for them.

I suspect that the long-term usefulness of discarding waste heat to the ground depends significantly on water flowing through that ground. In parts of California and many other areas, the water table may be hundreds of feet below the surface, so the discarded heat will simply raise the temperature of the nearby earth/rock, rapidly reducing the ∆T between the tubing and the earth. The heat transfer without water will be a slow process.

I wish you were right. But everything points to a real person.

It even seems to be a genuine business.

Can you read some French between the lines or is it entirly off?

Hopefully he more succesful speaking than he is with writing.

Good luck with the projects.

French? It's closer to Unwinese. What a mind-bogglo combinaire of the basic Engly twenty-fido. Oh, yes.

I am curious about something. Would you share with us the end result of this discussion with these groups:

Ohio Consumer's Counsel (http://www.occ.ohio.gov/
Public Utilities Commission of Ohio (www.PUCO.ohio.gov)
Dominion East Ohio (Website)

if someone can interpret the doorman, I will try to answer.

Idea Guru, I have detailed the part of an installation at the sustainable sight about GT vs Windmills.

English may not be much better.

But not one utility co will appreciate saving a client over the 80% on refrigerated cooling, done since 1996... personally redesigning the pond loops for the application, 6" on ctr spaced tubing of the coils of 420 ft which ended up at 7ft diameters, and on a 10f x 60 ft rack of 10 coils (also the coils were 5 layers high) ANYONE, EVEN DoorM, Slack Brick can all do this for clients... just that simple.

I have a drawing I can post.

No, my friend, you haven't detailed anything.

There is hardly anything novel about running hot fluid through a series of tubes, these tubes running through a cooling medium, the end game being the transfer of heat.

Are you asking us something, or trying to tell us something?

And what in the world does this have to do with wind turbines?

DM:

I hope again, a little less confusing-

A) DETAILED:

descript use of both 'over-under' successful layout in a ditch

? Anyone Else Used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What Size?

and

2) pond - loop circular heat exchanger coils that worked better in 1996-1997 than tight little "state of the art-then" coils of "well pipe " configurations seen promoted then.

? Anyone Else Used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What Size?

Door:

I like some of your writing, but also am confused at your confusion. I can read above # 15 and # 16 , and do not take constructive critique's as teasing. Wouldn't matter much , as i grew up with 2 diagnosed highly functional and one never getting tested-- pretty talkative and over bearing family members.

b) True: your obvious remark about 'not novel' , to you then , # 15 , but you'll see below why I ask , still, today.

But all I asked is

a) did ya do this? and b) what were some results from your findings.?

Anyone Else Used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What Size?

if it 'really' is not 'all so novel' why did ASHRAE - for a first time, republish the information on loop sizes and heat transfer in 2011, regarding this very 'novel'-ty ?

Why were several 'engineered schools' and two , redesigning the heat of rejection /admitted to the Earht Coupling of little plastic 'lame' heat exchangers, so overheated way beyond Energy Star's™ 77f (-way over red-line-88f deg Entering Fluids back to heat pumps in schools) after "TOLD 175ft/'ton' " , one prominent Engineer called me about…2007-2008) ?

Anyone Else Used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What Size?

by 2003 and published (to mostly dealers) findings were such that in good damp clay and gravel -wet overburden as in Berea Ohio, -aquifer extending through KY; vertical boreholes needed be similar to 230 ft per net required ton of cooling for a hottest two-to-three weeks.

Le'me know if I need to restate that , too. I can persist.

Ut'y V-P something won't forget me soon:

In Feb 1997 as I was adding loop to the engineering of Public building HVAC-GT b/c of the block loads- being higher than I wanted to do as spec'd ... and have my name on.

At the big offices of a ut'y co I stopped in to show, -called-in actually, and for/by concerns a local industrial boiler co asked them to call me about,--- I was tracking industrial combustion analysis for new customers, finding 2-4% less efficiency than expected by the client.

Called-in and I did go on to SHOW AGA stickered "ENERTECH" diverter that made an ambient gas boiler or furnace a condensing 86+ rel efficiency unit... (...propane flame, diverter, gauges, -- still got it...)

Don Smith invented and I saw the first one in Dayton, 1981. Seen them on power burners to large laundry, and many rental complexes, saving the 4% to 20%.

I heard someone sternly say there's the door, after showing the usual near 20% savings, NO MOVING PARTS, convection-effect system.

An engineer, county rep, and some marketing fella all saw and heard.

"we're looking for loads, not how to ... !"

I asked:

say a customer uses 5 units of energy, supposed to pay for 5 in five years, eh?

and I save a co 20%, money is only exchanged for 4 units purchased from the gas ut'y in five years then..., OK/

-------------and what if in ten years?

Oh well I said , the poor man not saving, is plain out of business at five or six years is gone and you (ut'y) only got 8 units from the energy saver.... and he stays in business.

I had to run outta there...

Great response S:

!

Exactly!

Who do you know who could benefit from descript, non proprietary Earth-Coupled Cooling?

Even as is done: Pre-Cooling with AHU's and intake air ways of make-up air... who can you help?

About such that so far, for some companies, would stop the bludgeoning scare tactics of why not conventional refrigeration and those being with other 9x's more costs + refg tech, of process cooling layouts and systemic planning...

7ft dia pond coils layout upon request; and is free to recopy and distribute with my (c) intact: ( i.e.) "2.1/2" ton HX coil systems in place , anyone can build, under $200./ ea. for your T&M, if you build on sites.

How do you cool the pond?

He is so familiar with what he's been saying for so long that he really doesn't notice that not everything in his head is getting typed down, and he's SURE not rereading or editing it for public consumption. The technical term is word salad and I've seen a lot of it before. Think Rain Man, only skipping every third or fourth step in the concepts, combined with a lot of associations that he's familiar with, but you aren't. Then add in some deflective fake humility and humor and you've got a classic ranter. Waste of time, it's all in Wikipedia, properly edited.

Why do you waste your time with this bunch of guys here on CR4? They (we) don't understand you. They just tease you and make fun of your poor communication skills.

I recommend you hire a patent lawyer, and get your ideas and designs securely patented, then start up a business using money from a Venture Capitalist. When you are running your own engineering company, you can then hire some of these guys to implement your concepts. Let them try to tease you then eh!!!!!

A good way to start would be to write a book. Explain it all. No patent required since the publishing date on the flyleaf will establish your precedence. Sell it on Amazon.com, and make a fortune. People will use your designs and name them after you ..."What did you do there Lyn?" "Why I used a JP ground loop to heat the turbines. Good idea huh? Thank goodness for good old JP and his ground breaking (so to speak) ideas!"

Most importantly, unsubscribe from CR4 completely since you will never get any encouragement or support from the people here. They will just keep hitting you with those negative waves.

Good luck on your future career.

(signed)

---a very encouraging and positive Yusef1

Why?

because of the same confusion ruling your thoughts at this moment based on your "heat turbines"

HOMEWORK FOR YOU:

search Dr. Kavanaugh, Source Geothermal Hybrids, Cooling towers.. Also see his EER commentaries on the web, 1995. You can even call him, but he is through with arguing the obvious savings and PEOCESS COOLING concept...

Please be more coherent about what the turbine thing has to do with cooling from HEATING THE EARTH, then... as an energy exchange DM does understand, and Idea does, and in sustainable site GT vs Wind for PRE-HEATING some make-up air, or other energy use (heat admitted to a need FROM THE EARTH) that is HIGHER-near-grade-GeoTHERMAL.

C U in the understandings line soon, I hope.

Still just tryin' to efficiently and more practically save over chillers, were it may fit.

I don't do homework. I don't care about your ideas, it is not MY trade nor is it MY discipline. It is YOURS. I am not joking about you writing a book and finding a venture capitalist. You MUST do this or people will continue to make fun of you. NOTHING else would convince them...

Ask any professor of scientist...you MUST publish.

I have to say you have a real knack for making gold out of crap! I think you need to patent that and sell it. You are quite the Alchemist! Thank you for the laughs!

Why? Because I am not being mean to the guy? I just don't think its right to just make fun of him....lots and lots of people have communications difficulties. That doesn't earn anybody the right to just treat him like an idiot.

I am not able to judge his ideas, its not my field. I am not able to judge him...also, not my field. Where do YOU think he should get his ideas evaluated? Certainly CR4 is the wrong place.

Glad you can laugh. I don't find it a laughing matter.

I'm not at all understanding this. Your post (1tech #43), is listed as a response to Yusef1's post #42, Yet I get the impression that your post is not directed at him, but rather at the OP.

If this post is directed at Yusef1, I must disagree. If it is directed at the OP, then I agree, but you should not begin your post with "You", after clicking on the Reply button of Yusef1's post.

Hoping the latest post clears it up a little. It was late when i wrote the 1st one. Thanks for asking for clarification.

OP:Q THAT IS ASKED Earth-Coupled COOLING exchange, I would like to know if your heat exchanges are significant to industrial manufacturing, process cooling, or the like, with some helpful data, btuh's etc. ASKING: MORE EXAMPLES OF THE ALREADY DONE SYSTEM OF COOLING THINGS FROM LOOPS IN DIRT THAT TRANSFERS HEAT TO THE GROUND OF THE EARTH. I CAN SHARE ONLY THE FACTS AND POINT TO HOW 84% OF ELECTRICAL CHILLER OPERATIONAL COSTS WERE CUT....& NO RFG PM NOR TECH, THEN BRINGING ALREADY DONE AMD PROVEN SAVINGS SINCE MY 1996 INSTALLATION OF USING PLASTIC PIPE WHO ELSE MONITORED THE ACTUAL BTU's ? and of a Cooling system Without any refrigerant...

Please show us how you might phrase:

Anyone else used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What size?

those concerned with the English and not the question have permission to try and play "squash" games, etc, it amuses me too, though not a "bait" thing: I just want to ultimately compare to other "sustainables"...

I just want to ultimately compare to other "sustainables"...

Anyone else used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What size?

games over the worry of 'teasing', I will look for some relativity, still...

please find some understanding in #15 and #16

I have used both the vertical open system and closed loop refridgerant systems in houses I have designed or built and both use both the heating and cooling effect of the earth (in our area 51 degees F )- and they work wonderfully- However I have tried to read the verbal garbage put out by JP76 and an completely at a loss as to what he is trying to say. I do not understand 'no heat pumps' - as if so what is both extracting the heat/cooling and what is moving the liquid in the system. In Canada the government will also pay a significant amount of the installation cost of the system so at 400% efficiency as compared to 92% (electric) and under 70% (fuels) it seems a no brainer if you have the space and desire to move to this technology.

found a first "Net-Zero" KY School, with 1/3 the solar of next best...

They used Heat Recovery with Hydro-Temp Earth Coupled Heat Pumps, of AR

and the next closest: Climate Master , was about within 10%...

http://www.masonequipment.com/index_files/Page426.htm

lists acouple decades of schools and such that have rocked the world of ASHRAE since "like ice-water" woke up the meetings from AHSRAE NY 2008...

I have reported this individual for posting nothing but gobbledygook, never answering queries cogently, and never providing useful technical information. I urge others to follow suit.

While I agree, there is nothing in the CR4 rules precluding "...posting nothing but gobbledygook, never answering queries cogently, and never providing useful technical information."

I believe the way to deal with this is to

Okay, I think I "get it" but I still don't know what any of this has to do with windmills. Maybe windmills (with battery backup for when the wind don't blow) can be used to pump the fluid around the cooling/heating loop between the buried-in-the-ground (or in the pond) coils/tubes/pipes and the heat exchanger unit. We have process chiller water circulating in our building to service point-of-use refrigeration chillers.

Originally this was done using "city water" that, after circulating through the water-to-Freon heat exchanger, dumped into a nearby pond (complete with fountains and fishes and geese and ducks). Worked "pretty good" except my company got charged both for the water coming in as well as a "sewer charge" for the water dumped in the pond (since that wasn't metered). As we added more point-of-use chillers over the years, that city water and sewer charge became substantial.

So, a few years ago I got the bright idea that an abandoned well located inside the building could be re-activated and used instead of city water. The heated well water still dumped into the duck pond though. This worked fine during the winter, but the next summer the well started to "run dry" and took several hours to recover. The well drillers said the "screen" was clogged with mineral deposits, dropped acid into the well to dissolve same. Worked for a few weeks and then went "dry" again. It is literally impossible for a well to go "dry" here because the well sits on top of a gravel-and-sand aquifer left over from the last ice age in the Miami Valley of Ohio. The entire City of Dayton draws its water from this aquifer. But who am I to question a professional well digger? Maybe we just needed to replace the well casing and put in a longer (deeper) screen, an expensive proposition that was never seriously considered.

A guru from the local HVAC shop that attends to all our HVAC needs said we needed a roof-mounted chiller with Freon-to-air heat exchanger to replace the well water cooling… in fact, he said we needed TWO of these. So that is what the company did. Disconnected my well-fed loop and inserted his two refrigeration loops. Bingo! Works great! But I have never seen a cost analysis of this method versus just paying for city water.

I sometimes wonder, if I had only pumped water from the duck pond instead of the well, that everything would have worked just fine. It never occurred to me to sink a coil of heat exchange tubing in the pond. After all, I am an electrical engineer and know very little about thermodynamic mechanical engineering.

There is a lot of heat stored in the Earth. Just a few feet underground the temperature is relatively constant at around 40F year-round, summer or winter. I recall that in caves it is a bit saturated with water, but maybe that's just the way it is with caves. Go a good bit deeper and it gets a lot hotter. Or go to the surface and it can go either way. The problem, as I see it, is how to use the heat capacity present in the ground. The Earth is not an infinite heat sink locally. If you attempt to pump in or withdraw prodigious quantities of heat from a small volume, the temperature will change. It then just becomes a matter of engineering as to how big, how deep, how much volume you need to meet a particular objective. I sometimes wonder why no one has found it practical to use Sterling heat engines powered by "free" Earth heat.

As for windmills… they look good on someone else's property, not mine. Unless it's the "quaint" type used on old farmsteads for pumping well water for livestock. The giant behemoths that go whump…whump…whump and sprout like dandelions are an eye-sore and an ear-sore. There has to be a better way to harvest the power of the Sun than a windmill.

Gentlemen, let's stay on topic please. Take it to PM if you must. Thank you!

Anyone else used Earth Coupled Loops for Process Cooling? What size?

PROCESSES producing their own manufacturing and testing equipment energy do use chillers , and probably you have run into what I have tracked since 1983:

A typical 20-ton chiller only netted about 17 to 18 measurable "tons" of chilled to 38f solution, but

required a heat exchange of over 264,000 btuh's and was tracked because a "20-ton" system of radiating the systems heat was undersized to where the leaving HOT fluid went up to 103f and returned at 96f to some demise. (tracked 1994-1993).

So I looked back at notes [NO HEAT PUMPS IN MY MIND ABOUT THE FIRST QUESTION] at my past-notes from 1980-1983 of mentors and seminars and what I could measure.

About 3200 ft in one INSTALLATION of vertical/some ditch boring kept an office at 80-degrees on a 94f day, with 4 workers, lights, and equipment , that had two 5-ton AHU rated for 42f chilled water--- that WAS a part of the very same job where above I mentioned those "chiller" results above

HOWEVER the chiller was off-line, and I isolated the 3200 feet of 3000ft vertical bore holes on under 200 ft x 6ft deep ditch from headers to building.

NO CHILLER NOR REFRIGERATION EQUIPMENT: net 7 tons of total cooling in those 80-deg offices came from a then measured 72f entering fluid loop with 20% glycol, an just a 1.1/2 HP circulation pump SHARING the AHU and the vertical bore hole loop

STANDARD GROUT/not enhanced grouting- 15 x 200 ft good damp boreholes, static water was near 40 ft deep in the 'wells', 52 f Earth Coupled Loop.

7 TONS net total cooling to ~ 3200 near-grade ( not using for heating, but a heat-sink for the cooling).

DONE DID. WHO ELSE?

and I thank all for the CONSTRUCTIVE attention to caring about making it clearer, and reading the first 2 questions. I thank you very much.

3) WINDMILLS were about just a comparison on the sustainable site of comparing to them only in terms of MWH for a price of installation vs a usable HEAT problem solve by ECL Earth Coupled Loop gle, GTX, 52f to say 25f recirculation controlled to avoid Earth freezing in the ditches, there.

NO CORRELATION to this the PROCESS COOLING or - other uses for COOLING something conditional thread.

4) The pond had not a "heat discharge problem" as one asked earlier...

6 gpm spring run-off kept the 1.1/3 acre face of that 11-13ft deep pond , in a clay 52f basin, at 41+ degrees f in the winter ( 8 to 9ft deep )

and 70f-72f max ever seen in the returning CLOSED LOOP 7ft diameter , 420ft x 12pc)3/4", coils to a 16 COMPRESSOR-ton GEOTHERMAL ( for correlation:

that would be size rated a 19-ton, by WF, CM, Trane, Hydron, etc., standard ratings systems...)

5) Then they ordered the 30- ton system I tried to describe, and made a handsome profit on, and saved that manufacturer 84% in utilities - on PROCESS COOLING 30-tons with a 1.1/2hp circulation pump.

Please file constructive Q's and commentary by some point numbers or lines. That is how I will respond .

NOT HIS PROCESS COOLING above :::

THE SUSTAINABLE thread of other comparisons is over for me as I called sources of average 150,000 dollar installs in average 11-12 MPH winds annually would get only 100 MWH to calculate with for heating uses, etc.

NO HEAT PUMPS , just temperature differentials with media recirculated:: for WORK:to:WORK comparisons. PreCooling / Process cooling is all that is regarded in this thread.

() My humor is mine , and displaces unnecessary thoughts; and but since I also understand my thoughts control my emotions : 98%.

Thank you for clearing this up for me. I have a couple of questions just to make sure i am understanding you correctly.

You are asking (correct me if i am wrong) if anyone has used or knows what size piping is used in a Geothermal liquid temperature transfer system, using horizontal closed loops at depths of 6-12 feet as opposed to vertical closed loops?

You are looking at systems that will work with units that are 20 tons or more, and you are wondering if it would be cheaper to use geothermal temperature transfer system to reduce the cooling costs as opposed to using a windmill to generate the power necessary to reduce the temperature the same amount?

If that is correct then it seems like a great idea and the good news is you don't have to re-invent the wheel as there are several companies that do exactly what you are describing. I think a windmill would not be as effective at reducing the costs especially over the long term when maintenance is factored in. One advantage of geothermal is the low maintainance of the system.

one company you might look into is climatemaster.com they do commercial systems.

Quote from Climatemaster.com Horizontal Loops
Horizontal loops utilize trenches dug to an average depth of four to six feet. As one of the more cost effective loops to install, horizontal loops are commonly found in open fields, parks or under parking lots.

A couple of other links that may be helpful

http://www.greenlogic.com/

http://energy.gov/articles/nevada-deploys-first-us-commercial-grid-connected-enhanced-geothermal-system

http://www.igshpa.okstate.edu/geothermal/commercial.htm

This is a growing and profitable field to get into.

Hope this helps if not feel free to ask additional questions.

Thanks again for the obvious attempt to communicate better, i appreciate it. It shows you are serious about this and that attention to detail will help you in this endeavor should you go in this direction.

Thanks again 1T:

your Q's:

and not just about any particular depth (though given as an example) , just did ya use it for PROCESS COOLING industrial, OEM systems of TEST energy needing cooling, or building Make-Up Air pre-cooling.

"That 20 ton " loop I see is probably less likely to PROCESS COOL much at 20-tons, based on this:

A compressor, or chiller at discharge temps of 110-120 -gauge, properly superheated, is rarely producing a condition for heat exchanges about 80% of the Compressor OEM label, however may be sharing 1.08 to 1.2+ X's the compressor-label "OEM TONS" reading the actual WORK of the system rejected as heat energy to a cooler of any design. (and I mean the compressor label, not the box of some "3rd party-rating")

BEEN THERE: 1994 --- 20T COMPRESSOR only 17.1/2 t of net usable cooling at a 38f 300 gal container for sending fluid to fancoils, (measured by timing container temp diff over time with the constant for 20% glycol, then)

and

the discharge there was over 125f-gauge, (96f to the loops, ECL,gle) [here only 1.1 x's the compressor-label]

more detail available upon request-

The measured heat output was 261k-262kbh...

the ratio of net chillin' : htn' rejected, ! @ 262/210btuh = about 1.25 , as many have also noted

so schools overheated in damp clay/gravel/enhanced grouted, 15ft-20-ft spaced vertical boreholes using just 175ft per ton, as engineers were told to do use, in 2003-2010 because their very accurate cooling loads needed 25% more compensation

I tracked several 66f loops to 102f ... vertical may need to start at 210ft, and be even 240ft per "TON" to just keep a GTHP "near" hi-eff HP's/AC's

from that I found other's were NOT attaching heat pumps, nor refrigeration, and using the ECL. gle to receive heat energy at a particular rate of exchange, and then

1) made money

2) Saved the customer 84% instantaneously (cost of operation, did not include reduction of rfg tech no longer needed)

3) more data acquisition

4) OEM with test equipment wanted cooled, bought a second time , even after seeing me and laborers rewind tight coils of PE to a 6" spacing into 7ft dia. copils for "heat rejection" in a 13- to - 11ft deep pond, that had a 6 gpm spring feeding the pond to constant over-flowing . Pond of 1.1/2acre with all that coulds easily support 200 tons and more.

I have had much fun with all this since 1980. Please be sure to see hybrids, Kavanaugh, the source, groundloop sites for NOT using heat pumps, that today 1000's of techs can attach, if for no other reason: Tax Credit qualifications to meet.

as posted: Has anyone else done WITHOUT all the referencing GTHP I see above.

There is not any "windmill" involed. That was about "what would a 100,000 dollars get you in (MGWH) in annual total power COMPARING to (( how much actually 15-ton ) say your 20-t loops / installed with just a 1hp circulator, if efficient, or even a 2hp circulator) - wind-COMPARED-to $ 100,000 loop+circulator+a heat exchanger, installed.

I hope that helps. The question was not to re-invent, but see great examples, hopefully with the tracking and results of the HEAT of REJECTION noted without refrigeration devices attached for PROCESS COOLING at some application.

NO HEAT PUMPS

where do you have installations WITHOUT REFRIGERATION, nor REFRIGERATION TECH, nor REFRIGERATION MAINTENANCE and without all that refrigerant-REFRIGERATION COST?

-like evaporative cooling.

That would be OP good news.

Thank you for an input regarding wind expense that every time I add it subtracts from reasonable long term payoffs, BUT WE STILL SHOULD TRY TO USE and IMPROVE, where it can be fitting more and more, I want to see and help that too, as any solar, etc/.

chillitchillers.com

I installed one of there systems last summer its' a 6 pipe closed loop systems they all share the same water. one heating only loop, one chilled loop and then a geo thermal loop. They use the hot gas from the air conditioning process and put it into the heating loop for reheat/removing humidity.

thank you for responding to the topic of the cooling and staying on the topic and on the thread of the OP question also I am including the direct only-Earth cooling installed already for17 years, only a circulator of not using any hot gas refrigerant nor any heat pump nor any chiller at all but the ground itself is the chiller 500 watts pump electricity circulating -25gpm allows nearly 12 tons net cooling of 95f ent water in just 6 coils on a 70 deg pond Coils need piping spaced over 4" apart on loops I'm each bundled coil .....NET's? OP : Q: .....ANY NET BTUH PER FT OR COIL THAT OTHERS CAN SHARE PF THIS OLD IDEA?