Previous in Forum: 2-wire Proximity Switch Power   Next in Forum: Difference of PZT and PT Transmitters
Close
Close
Close
13 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Associate

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 40

Analog VS Digital Signal

08/16/2013 6:30 AM

Hi

I was wondering why does the indutry use 4-20mA signal for communication with the field instruments. With all the advancement in microprocessors why can't we have the information transferred via a digital signal. If a SMART instrument can transmit diagnostic data digitally why can it not transmit a PV in the same way. I guess it won't be so difficult to implement using serial communication. What are the reasons it is not done so. Any thoughts on the subject?

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
5
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#1

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/16/2013 6:40 AM

4-20mA is used because it is simple, rugged, easy to set-up in the field, independent of cable length and type, doesn't hurt anyone that touches bare wires, doesn't blow up sensitive electronics if the two wires are shorted, doesn't blow fuses, and is not prone to interference by cross-talk from other signals. A simple variable resistor can be used as a signal transmitter. It is also historically compatible with virtually everything in the industrial process instrumentation field and entirely compatible with EEx i methods of explosion prevention in the neighbourhood of flammable materials.

Beat that.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 5)
Guru
Popular Science - Cosmology - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Energy Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electrical Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Electromechanical Engineering - Old Member, New Association

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lexington, KY
Posts: 1639
Good Answers: 73
#2

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/16/2013 8:01 AM

There are digital methods for transmitting data. The 4-20 mA method is fine if have such hardware. There are several interface devices that convert analog signals to digital for high speed transmission over standard ethernet lines. This is one of several companies that provide high speed process control hardware.

__________________
A great troubleshooting tip...."When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Register to Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - EE from the the Wilds of Pa.

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2603
Good Answers: 63
#3

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/16/2013 8:56 AM

4-20ma was the improvement to pneumatic control. The current crop of fieldbus systems are the improvement to 4-20ma. Give them time to supplant the norm. Changes in industry don't happen over night. Heck, they don't happen in 15 years.

I am a controls engineer for a process skid builder and I would rather run a good bus system than 4-20ma. So much easier wiring it. Unfortunately, one draw back is there is no perfect system to handle both analog and discrete, and it is quite common at present to run two bus systems (i.e. Foundation Fieldbus for analog and Profibus for discrete signals). This is part of the hinderence to full acceptance of pure digital. Another is the mistaken notion that the digitization of the analog signal leads to signal error. Yes it does, but even in the analog 4-20ma system, we get digitization at the processor, so you aren't adding any additional error going digital all the way, but this tends to get ignored.

Don't know how many times I've looked at a P&ID with 40 or so valves with limit switches, a dozen or so temperature transmitters and another half dozen pressure transmitters and asked the customer why don't we go to a bus systems, at least with the discrete signal to eliminate the Swiss cheese effect on the control cabinet from 60 or so cable entries and got a resounding "no".

It takes time to change.

__________________
Remember when reading my post: (-1)^½ m (2)^½
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Associate

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 40
#4
In reply to #3

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/16/2013 12:22 PM

thanks..the question popped up into my mind because all instruments nowadays have digital processing at the instrument end. So basically we first use a A/D converter to get the signal processed in the microprocessor of a transmitter then we covert it back to analog and for the PLC to read it, it is once again converted to digital.

So its like A/D>D/A>A/D. we could also just use a A/D converter in the transmitter and that would be it.talk about signal error han.

Processing speeds are not much of an issue these days.so i thought there might be some technical problem in digital transmission.

For the length and noise issue as PWSlack mentioned why don't we have those problems in say the land line telephone connections?

As per your argument regarding industry acceptability i agree the clients have strict specifications; besides my design team is also happy using the tried and tested techniques instead of trying out something new. So we mostly stick to 4-20mA HART.

Register to Reply
Guru
Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - EE from the the Wilds of Pa.

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2603
Good Answers: 63
#5
In reply to #4

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/16/2013 1:09 PM

Yep - loads of signal changes A/D, D/A.... That's why I fight requests for an analog instrument with display close to a panel with a meter display beside the HMI (monitor) that's also displaying the same signal. You never can get the three to agree. You have difficulty getting two to agree with all the converting going on in the devices. Maybe they will all agree at, for example, 70.1 degrees C, but let the temperature change a bit, and at least one will be different.

__________________
Remember when reading my post: (-1)^½ m (2)^½
Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1296
Good Answers: 104
#6
In reply to #4

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/16/2013 2:57 PM

". . . noise issue as PWSlack mentioned why don't we have those problems in say the land line telephone connections?", you must be a youngster! Back when land lines were really land lines, i.e. copper wire all hard-wired, noise was plentiful.

The first 4-20 mA signalling I encountered was in a new plant in the mid-70's (yes, 1970's). It was a Foxboro Spec 200 system. Each controller was a discrete analog device. Any computer interface was accomplished with discrete A>D or D>A. The boilers still used pneumatic controls since the boiler manufacturer insisted on 'proven technology'.

Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 40
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/17/2013 7:32 AM

well i dont have a great deal of understanding of telecommunication systems. I know that previously they were analog and there used to be a lot of noise and lines got mixed up but now in digital systems this is no longer a problem so i was thinking why would we have this problem in implementing it in the instrumentation field?

I do know that 232 and 485 have range limitations so do we need a new protocol??

Again i wonder how the long range transmission is possible in the telecom sector is it because the they uses fiber optic?? (i have no idea)

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 677
Good Answers: 28
#13
In reply to #4

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/28/2013 5:43 PM

You would have to put a power source out at the sender to make the a/d and bus transmitter work. extra wiring, and needless complexity for a system with many sensors. I prefer the KISS approach. Some safety sensitive systems demand absolute readings and controls, so a muxed or mux-able setup would not meet the safety requirements.

__________________
Smart as a post and twice as fast.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: May 2012
Location: Ahmedabad, INDIA
Posts: 25
Good Answers: 1
#7

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/16/2013 4:14 PM

If you are not using very smart transmitters 4-20 mA plays effective role in industry comparitively 0-10 VDC.

in case of 0-10 VDC signal coming frm a field instrument which is far away from its display -----if u got a zero reading at display you need to check voltage coming out frm field inst when u r measuring it at your display. (far away frm field inst) if u got 0 VDC reading on multimeter u can't judge weather a field instrument is faulty or cable is broken; u need to go at field inst and check for what s d problem is for 0 reading

Gives noise problem

In case of 4-20 mA according to setting of zero and span : u will get 4 mA every time for zero reading

If field inst cable got broken or any terminal is loose i will get 0 mA....

Alao gives lower noise problem

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: About 4000 miles from the center of the earth (+/-100 mi)
Posts: 9913
Good Answers: 1141
#9

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/17/2013 9:19 AM

A current loop run through twisted shielded pair is highly resistant to picking up noise from the environment.

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 669
Good Answers: 176
#10

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/17/2013 10:05 AM

>so do we need a new protocol??

There are dozens of automation protocols, have a look-see at Wikipedia's list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automation_protocols

Your reference to HART infers a particular interest in field instrumentation. Two protocols in particular are designed for process field instruments that require hazardous area approvals, Foundation Fieldbus and Profibus PA.

What would yet another protocol or hardware layer transport link provide that isn't already available in the market?

Register to Reply
2
Guru
Canada - Member - Specialized in power electronics

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal, Canada.
Posts: 1372
Good Answers: 80
#11

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/17/2013 10:06 AM

I use both.

Once you add communication to a control system, you multiply the setup and programming time. A communication bus should be simpler but it is not. Wiring is the only simplification but you loose the "redundance". If your bus cable is unplug, everything stops. There are ways around but it increase the complexity to the point where you negate the gains.

Communication makes everything more complicated. The added information also increase the logic to monitor and display it. It might be useful at times but it is not necessary for the process.

In today's complex systems, the "keep it simple" approach is often forgotten.

Now, a winning strategy is often to start with a basic system with 4-20mA and then eventually, when resources are available, add the Hart functions to get more info from the sensors. This allows to start simple, fills the low work periods and eventually produces a complete system.

__________________
Experienced is earned, common sense is taught, both are rare essentials of life.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
7
Power-User
Engineering Fields - Instrumentation Engineering - New Member Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Technical Fields - Education - New Member Fans of Old Computers - Apple II -

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Bellingham, WA
Posts: 191
Good Answers: 46
#12

Re: Analog VS Digital Signal

08/17/2013 11:45 AM

One reason for the continued use of analog signals in industry is "natural standardization": there just aren't that many different ways to make an analog current signal. The sheer simplicity of the concept makes interoperability natural. Even field transmitters generating a different current range (e.g. the obsolete 10-50 mA standard) can be made to work with equipment designed for 4-20 mA: just replace the 250 ohm resistor with a 100 ohm resistor and upgrade the DC power supply. Digital communication, on the other hand, can be done in so many different ways that it takes a concerted effort for manufacturers to make their digital equipment interoperable. Just look at how long it took the Fieldbus Foundation members to finally agree on the FF standard! It seems to me that the most successful digital bus standards in the business often start with one company's good idea, which then becomes a de factor standard as other companies recognize the benefits and adopt it (e.g. Modbus from Modicon, HART from Rosemount, Profibus from Siemens).

Another important reason for the continued use of 4-20 mA analog signaling is familiarity among maintenance technicians. Troubleshooting a 4-20 mA loop is quite a different matter than troubleshooting a malfunctioning digital bus. The tools are much simpler for troubleshooting analog and the problems are always rooted in the fundamental laws of electric circuits rather than the idiosyncrasies of digital data formats. When digital busses do fail from wiring problems such as poor grounding, improper cable termination, insufficient cable bend radius, etc., the problems can be a nightmare to pinpoint. This is why I cringe whenever I hear someone extoll the virtue of low installation cost with digital busses. Sure, there is a lot less wire and fewer connections with a digital bus, and commissioning time is (theoretically) faster, but how does the total lifecycle cost compare to analog? Extra wire and conduit can be a lot cheaper than down-time on a critical process unit.

Reliability is another factor where analog usually wins over digital. A comparison between analog versus digital instrument reliability provides some insight here. The Rosemount "Alphaline" analog model 1151 pressure transmitter at 226 years demonstrated MTBF versus the Rosemount "smart" model 3051C pressure transmitter at 136 years demonstrated MTBF is a good example. Admittedly both of these instruments have 4-20 mA output signals, but the latter has digital internals while the former is 100% analog. Foxboro's legendary SPEC 200 analog control system mentioned by Bigg in a previous post is an excellent example of the generally high reliability you can get from a well-designed analog system. The reason for this is very straightforward: analog systems have fewer components than digital, and consequently exhibit fewer failure modes.

Another issue with digital in general is loop update speed. Analog instruments and 4-20 mA signaling exhibit negligible dead time, whereas digital instruments necessarily introduce dead time into a control loop due to their internal scan rate. As Phys pointed out in his post, digitization anywhere in a system (even within the controller) introduces this kind of artifact into the signal, but some digital systems are much slower than others. HART networks, for instance, poll far too slowly for most process control applications which is why it's typically used as a maintenance communication protocol rather than for critical process data. Even FOUNDATION Fieldbus is limited to about a dozen devices per H1 segment in order to keep macrocycle times less than 1 second. For many process control applications a delay of a second or so is not a big deal, but for others (e.g. liquid flow control, liquid pressure control, compressor surge protection) it can be prohibitive. I've actually worked on systems where we had to install a purely analog transmitter (instead of a "smart" digital transmitter) and a digital controller with a tight scan time in order to achieve the fast response times necessary for stable feedback control. Certainly there are proven examples of fast-responding digital protocols for critical control applications out there (CANbus for automotive applications comes to mind), but I've yet to see this manifest in the industrial control world where physical distances are large, field devices are complex, wiring is custom-installed, and incremental upgrade capability is important.

__________________
They call me "lightning" when wielding a hammer, because I never strike twice in the same place
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 7)
Register to Reply 13 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

bigg (1); Iris (1); LongintheTooth (1); marcot (1); MUSUTH86 (1); NotUrOrdinaryJoe (1); Phys (2); PWSlack (1); Rixter (1); SArsalan (2); tonykuphaldt (1)

Previous in Forum: 2-wire Proximity Switch Power   Next in Forum: Difference of PZT and PT Transmitters

Advertisement