Difference Between Perpetual Motion Machines, Over Unity Devices and Free Energy

Here's something that free energy devices, over-unity machines and perpetual motion equipment all have in common.

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They don't work.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

Yeah right, just read the title and sound off!

I recently read "The God Delusion" by Dawkins, the OP displays all the same characteristics as the theist mind.

I was wondering if a ship is traveling almost as fast with the wind as against the wind why can we not travel double as fast as the wind using both options at the same time!

As for the last sentence: Why would you assume we have to depend on solar and wind only anywhen soon? And what is wrong with an intermitent powersupply if it only means you can not watch television at all times or be at work at all times. Live would just have to adjust!

Trust the power of live: Everything is possible!

W...T...F...?

The only real difference is that the laws of physics do allow for a perpetual motion machine (provided that it can be engineered to be completely friction free!!), although it would be completely useless apart from being a conversation piece as no work whatsoever could be extracted from it. This is simply a closed system with no absolutely no losses, but capable of receiving an input of energy.

if you never experienced a perpetual motion machine you must have never married a women who has the ability to speak her mind

Although nothing you say here is revolutionary, or even relevant for that matter, some things you say here are just wrong.

Agreed.

Perpetual motion = tidal power

Over unity = hydroelectric

Free energy = Illegal tap on power line

I must say it is nice to see a decent post for a change. First off, no I am not against renewables far from it, the only thing is we seem to be stuck in a rut looking at the same solutions over and over again without making any headway at all. The amount of effort that is being made in trying to integrate intermittent renewables into the grid effectively is laudable but so far fruitless. What I was wondering is if there could be a better solution out there that could provide more or less sustainable, clean renewable energy. I have been looking at a few alternatives that I think might work.

Just simplify commentary in questions.

had to ask about 3x's if one had read the research and closed installation reports af a Dr, PE, ME Professor, befdore one admitted "no".

the others refusing publicized proven research have one or two still marking every post 'off topic' among their intelligent behaviors

it is what it is on this site, but the knowledge of those quickly searching the net and posting sites instead of engaging with evidence - to those who truly are sarcastically very informative as well

are here, and among another 1000 who will not post for not wanting the armchair-like PE's etc sarcasm and input a bit dated.

Persist with a q at a time, ignore those that are just 2 funny until you can see they understand things like temperature differentials and discuss what they have touched or provided evident experience with/ otherwise ignore the (but note: very very few here seen) false statements of the participants.

ask again, ignore the 3 or 5

and see who else proves them right or wrong, inviting conjecture.

Two statements here... stuck in a rut and fruitless integration into the "grid".

There are new innovations coming in the field of alternate energy every day. Small steps. Big steps. So, who is this "we" you are talking about and what rut are "we" in? Bio-diesel, gasohol, and electric vehicles are not ruts. That rut is a straw man you are building in order to knock down to promote a different idea.

And who cares about "grid"? There is an electric grid, built at enormous expense, and its not going to go away. It may be over loaded, it may be a lot of things, but its not broken, so there is little reason to fix it. You suggested that small intermittent renewables might be fruitless? What's fruitless about it? They work. Renewable energies just top up the grid...they are not the "grid" itself.

We KNOW what needs to be done...and that is to reduce. Other countries cut off power for an hour a day. The fact that we have not done that shows clearly that there is nothing "wrong" with the "grid", and any fixes to it involve little tweaks and such. I reduced my electric bill in half by following standard conservation techniques. Its not rocket science, and it will fix the "problem" way better than the incorporation of a lot of renewable energy sources. Gasification in Ottawa for instance is a renewable energy resource. I am trying to get my head around the possibility of running out of garage to drive it. Um. Nope. Lots of dump to dig up if we need to.

So, I think you are seeking (or have) a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist. We don't need over unity devices...we need more garbage.

I agree with using human trash as a renewable energy source. A major experiment is in process now in Oregon, thanks to Waste Management recognizing the potential of Plasma Gasification. Here is a link to progress to date:

http://www.yalescientific.org/2013/04/turning-trash-into-gas-the-future-of-plasma-gasification/

Now that project has legs. Its more than just speculation or scientific experimentation. There is a huge future in plasma-gasification.

Came here for some comments on 'Zero Point Energy' machines, the 'Dean Drive', and 'Cold Fusion'.

_{/Leaving disappointed.}

Yes but.......................................

Where else could you hear more than you ever wanted to know about,

"Bridges 'against the Earth' are almost frozen, but not- as the oceanic temperature differentials of near-grade near-surface heat energy of the sea water contents is pumped in radiant-heating designs using the energy of the Earth Collection in Loops (ECL,gle) to defrost any potential freezing "FREE" as only a 10% component, like a solar circulator"

ANOM 1)

you have to interpret for those who confuse sales with temperature differentials:

-those who just have fun here, but demonstrate they just also do not clearly read several other OP's q's and are seen commenting on something other, -throughout- but

one here may still be in search, and alive, and so it is well with his soul.

Thank you for 'walking away, back to to your OP. Anom1

some translation needed , again:

"Bridges [used for car travel in Japan] 'against the Earth'

[about to like a sailboat traveling in to the wind that has a net unified work of WITH the wind , not "against" it as some frequent]

Bridges that are almost frozen [the bridges, in winter freezing weather],

but not- [ do not yet freeze though ]

as the oceanic temperature differentials of near-grade near-surface heat energy of the sea water [40-degree and warmer oceanic energized heat exchange to a closed loop system put in the bridge for ice-melting]

is pumped in radiant-heating designs using the energy [ for the aforementioned ice melting]

of the Earth Collection in Loops (ECL,gle [ground loop exchanger]) to defrost any potential freezing "FREE" [ as a free energy system in regard to the remaining ~ 90% energy transported versus a circulator pump]

as only a 10% component [ of electrical energy required, and less]

, like a solar circulator" [only having some fluid pump used]

ECL , are like Solar Fluid Collectors, sold and used worldwide, just not common on this site [yet]...

some still confuse heat-pump hookups or the commonly workable temperature differentials available for to allow heat energy to move all by its designed self.

Thank you for moving on with the OP --- ignore the few that always hit the 'off-topic' who can not form a question in a line-by-line review for want of a desire to learn or just wanting to raz...

You are delusional.

cmon, you can be more OP on topic..., smile some more for all of us...

now form a question and about what so it is understood.

show me a boat sailing against ALL the work of the wind, and i will see it moving bavckwards WITH that wind...

technical to your semantics... we will try to figure someday

O-H

What language/dialect do you speak?

well a little more Lyneeze.

My assumption was that there weren't batteries, but I can't see a mechanical link on that one, and if the power transfer is electrical, they may very well have added batteries.

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There are sailboats with HAWT or VAWT that do not rely on batteries that have no problem sailing directly against the wind.

'....the diff between those free energy absorption machines and perpetual motion machines?....'

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Plurium Interrogationum.

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Those aren't free energy absorption machines. The machines are not free. The energy used is also not without cost.

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Consider the energy coming in as sunlight. The cost of that energy (aside from the hardware to gather it) is at least the cost of utilizing that space during that time.

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Perpetual means without ceasing.

Are you on some sort of illp? Sorry, lilp, sorry, llip, sorry, pill?

I hope that Anonymous Poster #1 does not regard the Hoover Dam as an "intermittency energy source" because it does not rain 24/7 on the water collection area. Regarded as one of the Top 10 constructions of the world, that generates some 4 billion kilowatt hrs per year and serves around 1.3 million people, I think it clearly demonstrates that renewables with appropriate time shifting storage capability do actually work.

On the same basis, please tell me where coal, oil & gas extraction at source is immediately converted into usable energy, without a storage medium in the delivery system. Anonymous Poster #1 seems to say that coal trains, stock piles, ships, tank systems and pipe lines do not count, but a battery, pumped water to height and heat storage etc clearly demonstrate that renewables of almost any source have some serious base load technology failures.

A small aside, in Western Australia, one of the original benefits for the major southwest grid has been using renewables like PV and wind, to sustain the line voltage levels at required system standards, without remote diesel gensets to do the same. What do we learn from this? There is a place for all energy sources.

And I am somewhat reminded of the Goon Show and the 'Fireball of Milton Street',
involving sending a wooden rocket to the sun, because the sun is on fire! It all sort of makes sense! If not, at least enjoy the laugh.

Yes,a PMM is different from over-unity. Over-unity is really just a dream in the form of a puzzle. People like to think it is possible just so they can justify the energy put into thinking of a solution. It can be a fun exercise for a while.

I don't think any exchange/transfer of energy in any type of physical/material chain can happen without losses. Although there is the equivalency of matter and energy. But once released, losses immediately occur. A more practical statement of the PMM goal is to shoot for the highest efficiency of conversion from a large (practically unlimited) source. And that source is ... ??

To sum up the gist of the OP:-

Perpetual motion machines are not possible because they have no external source of energy OR because they are using one source of energy in opposition to itself.

Look at this picture of one of the perennial perpetual motion machines that works on the principles of gravity. Here the force of gravity is being used to oppose itself, obviously it won't work and all forces will be neutralised, almost immediately.

Over unity machines on the other hand are based on near unproved science and often are exploiting faults in the measuring devices such as electric meters rather than actually generating extra energy. So over unity machines are actually perpetual motion machines, since they claim to make more energy than they use.

Free energy, on the other hand, as proved by sailing ships, does exist and can be duplicated, here forces of energy that exist in nature such as wind, gravity ( hydroelectric) and solar, are being exploited and utilised.

The Jet Stream and the Gulf Stream never stop.

One averages about a hundred mph and the other one averages 5 mph.

'...The Jet Stream and the Gulf Stream never stop....'

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For your premise to be true, one would have to be satisfied that observations which show no cease over a relatively short period of time were sufficient to prove ceasing never occurred.

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Given that the Gulf Stream began rather abruptly with the closing of the isthmus of Panama, there are man ways in which it could cease just as abruptly. When our sun swells and vaporizes all the liquid water on the planet, the Gulf Stream current will definitely be not more.

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An absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

:) When the sun explodes we won't have to worry about an energy shortage!

In the interim, it might be feasible to hang a 4 square mile solar collector in orbit and laser the power back down to a receiving station for disbursement on the current grid. (pun intended)

Getting the parts up there seems to be a problem but maybe they could fly themselves up there on solar power if an engineer could design them into a high lift/low weight self propelled wing.

I don't think the sun is going to explode.

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I suspect that, should descendants of our species survive the several billion years until our sun transitions to a red giant, we will have developed technology that will allow us to survive the transition.

This discussion seems very much useless. Guys Free Energy might or might not be possible to achieve. While you cannot create energy from nothing, you might be able to get it from something that is infinitely available, such as space or time... or extradimensional whatever...

However, the people in power will never allow it... I mean imagine the power that such devices would give to the "peasants".
http://outfacted.com/4-no-free-energy-ever

Its not going to happen. They wont let it... ever.

http://outfacted.com/ is a toilet full of misinformation.

I have a piece of property in the mountains with a spring fed perpetually flowing stream with a 400 foot waterfall, south facing exposure, with the building site on the top of the ridge line extending perpendicular out into the adjoining 4 mile long valley, in a temperate rain forest that gets 52-54 inches of rain annually.

If I live long enough to extract myself from my current lethargic acceptance of my current lodgings, I want to build an off-grid house there using solar roofing shingles facing SE->SW, a 12 volt alternator run by a Pelton wheel propelled by a 50' x 1 1/2" water line with a 15' drop, a ram pump to pump water into a cistern mounted on the ridge above the building site which will feed and supply water pressure to the house, assisted by on demand 12 volt water pumps of the motorhome variety at each interior water fixture, a solar water heater with an on-demand 110 volt tank-less water heater mounted down line from it, a passive solar heat collector mounted to the sides of the south facing exterior walls, all LED lighting,a modest wind generator mounted on the top of the ridge line where it will be optimized by the increased wind velocity coming down the valley below, all DC appliances except microwave oven, Lithion ion battery bank charged by the solar collecting roofing shingles, the Pelton powered alternator, and the wind turbine.

My only problem will arise when the temps drop to below 15F for more than 4 days and the cistern might freeze up at which time I will be relying on the wood fireplace or the back-up propane heaters but I have already tested the ram pump in such circumstances and it continues to function perfectly so the Pelton pump will to if the resulting ice sculpture doesn't get too large and break off and crush everything under a hundred pounds of ice!

This plan sort of combines all the elements suggested in the thread title, the spring being the perpetual motion machine, the increased flow rate of the two 50' flow pipes running the ram pump and the Pelton alternator being the over-uinty device and free energy from the sun. Added cost to the otherwise on-grid normal construction of a house this size ~1200sq.ft. should be ~$20K, exactly what the TVA wants to charge me to run two miles of power poles to the site.

With a 400' waterfall on the property, it seems like you could take advantage of more than a 15' drop. Properly utilizing a Pelton wheel driven by streams coming through nozzles with a couple hundred feet of head behind, will allow much greater output than a similar flow rate through just a 15' drop.

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Not only would it allow more output, but you can avoid other people indiscreetly snickering as you describe your set up....since you won't feel the need to refer to it as 'over unity' or 'perpetual motion'......since you will have sufficient electricity to allow internet access or at the very least to light a candle and catch up on some reading.

Might try that since pumping electricity uphill is a lot easier than pumping the water uphill.

The house site sits 100' vertically above the stream bed that feeds the waterfall so the water barely makes it up there.

Thanks

All kidding aside, you should definitely put some serious consideration into maximizing as much of the 400' vertical drop of the stream before other power generating projects.

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Pelton wheel turbine setups coupled with a decent generator can have very respectable efficiency. By eliminating the other hydro powered mechanisms and the piping, could reduce costs and inefficiency substantially. Concentrating the funds and the stream into a high efficiency system for generating electricity utilizing the most vertical fall will probably give you the fastest return on investment. It also allows for a lot of flexibility....i.e. there are many inexpensive and efficient electrically driven devices to do what you wanted with the other hydro driven ideas.

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I wonder if you could build something that followed load by throttling the waterfall?... that is, when demand was low, most of the water went as it does now over the waterfall, and when demand is high, most or all the water runs through the turbine.

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Anyway I think dollar for dollar, the best thing to leverage initially is the 400' stream drop, assuming there is sufficient flow to be worthwhile. Few people have a 400' drop in a stream to take advantage of.

The first pic is of the waterfall during a really long drought period. The flow you see is from the the natural springs that feed it, rain or no rain. It is still sufficient to run a ram pump.

The other two pictures are a normal flow, spring feeds plus normal rain runoff. The area is in the Cherokee National Forest and has annual rainfall of 52 inches but only about 8" of snow a year. It is considered a temperate rain forest because of this.

I have had my wooden bridge made of 12" x 10' logs stacked across the dirt road, in-filled with gravel and set over a 2' diameter steel culvert disappear down the waterfall with no trace after a 12" of rain in a week! Infrastructure in the creek has to be kept to a minimum. Alternator and ram pump are set safely 15' above the bed of the waterfall out of the potential torrent of a ultra heavy cascading flow which is a beautiful thing to see but very unforgiving.

I have a 4' long sand well point lying in a natural stone basin and 50' of 1 1/2" flexible black irrigation pipe laid on the bank with a 15' vertical drop which puts out 65# of pressure. Creates a very high speed jet when nozzled down. I left some of the coil in the pipe to counteract the Darcy Effect. I forget the name of the fluid principal that makes the water flow faster through a mildly coiled pipe.

I don't need a lot of power from an alternator, just sufficient constant RPM's to keep a constant charge. An automotive alternator putting out 150 amps will do it. Also I can't bury a pipe in all that stone!

I'm a minimalist as far as impact on the environment goes, unlike the other Floridiots who move to the mountains up there and like to build monuments to themselves.

This is the flow and the resulting damage when it got to 8F every night for a week and the ice sculpture broke off and crushed the ram pump connection to the pipe. You can see the flow was uninterrupted by the cold snap tho. It was about 30 degrees when I took this pic.

There is no need to bury the pipe in stone, and with 400' of drop, you have plenty of room to smoothly move the pipe out of the torrential flood path in an area that it can be covered, or possibly just surrounded, to minimize visual impact and risk of freezing.

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One of the convenient things about using an (or several) automotive alternator(s) is the acceptance of a range of speeds and standard integration of a voltage regulator. You probably still need something to limit flow through the turbine when loads are really light, but that is pretty easy.

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I do think that maximizing the utilization of as much of the stream as possible for the most drop possible will likely have significant advantages over trying to use the stream in other ways and definitely over solar or wind power generation.

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How much flow do you estimate was occurring at the minimum period in the drought and how much is typical?

The flow out of the black pipe in the bottom picture would fill up a 5 gallon bucket in about 15 seconds.

The pic was taken the same day as the two snow pics and the depth of the creek was typical of 'normal' flow, not drought diminished nor storm or snow melt enhanced.

I don't need to power the house with the alternator (or the rest of the neighborhood), just constantly charge the battery bank.

Because the site is on top of a short ridge line sticking out into the valley it always has a breeze except on completely still days and is exposed to the sun from two hours after sunrise to sunset. The view is looking to the west.

These 3 pics show the 200 gallon leak proof well point stone pit before I cleaned it out, the just bulldozed building site and the valley view is taken from where the wind generator tower will be mounted to a granite outcropping with 360 degree exposure to

an breeze. Access for maintenance is crucial, it takes 30 minutes to climb back up the near 50% gradient drop of the waterfall.

The pulp wood Virginia pines on the edge of the graded site are gone now allowing full sun.

Keeping costs low will help if anything happens like falling trees or a tornado.

Your property is beautiful.

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I'm just a little envious that you have such a potent source of power that could be reliably powering your house at a cost probably far below the cost to accomplish the same with wind solar and batteries.

Thanks, yes, it is the place I go to when I need to recharge my own batteries! The air and water there are so clean you can't imagine.

I want backup in case someone buys one of the two properties above me and steals my water. Not too likely but it could happen. A residential wind generator is relatively cheap now and the solar shingles are coming down in price.

Once you get over a hundred yards, electrical losses in the line to the house would start to grow exponentially.

I've had the property for 20 years but work, kids, etc kept me from moving to the boonies. Now they are all grown up and gone so I'd like to fool around with it.

Had to cure my Lyme I got in both 2010 and again in 2012 before I could get back to the energy level I needed to take on this project!

That was a chore (Lyme) I wouldn't wish on anyone but my worst enemies! If I had any...

I've heard Lyme disease can be horrible. Congratulations on making it through twice. I'm guessing your apply plenty of deet and make checks for ticks part of a routine after moving through the brush now.

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I'm pretty unflappable around most creepy crawlies....I have no problem with spiders climbing on me...brown recluses create some urgency to get them off, but they don't disturb me.....but there are a couple things that just make me shiver thinking about them, and that stealthy way that ticks creep along your skin gives me the heebie jeevies.

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Just talking about them made me feel like one was crawling in my pants just then and I had to go look.

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I've been bitten by some pretty painful creepy crawlies, I has a terrible scorpion sting on the back of my leg, and I've had a spider bite that made my leg swell to twice the size, I didn't realize (for a short period) that I was standing in a fire ant mound as a kid onetime, I was mobbed by cloud of hornets or yellow jackets that came out of the ground where someone had just mowed with gravely mower, but the most painful was a single striking velvet ant...also known as a cow killer...because they hurt that much (they are appropriately named). But none of those make me imagine that they might be crawling on me. None of those illicit reactions I know not to be rational but still perform. Eeyech!

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I had to go check again. Sorry, ust had to vent about ticks. Opossums are also hideous, though I don't ever feel like one might be crawling on me. Did you know opossums lack a corpus callosum? They lack that connection between left and right brain....though I don't think that is what repulses me about opossums, since horses also lack a corpus callosum.

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Back to the subject at hand. It seems like you should have some protection against someone diverting the flow upstream. I'm no attorney, but I'm pretty sure I remember that being an important president.

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On the other concern about losses over a few hundred feet, one solution would be to refrain from rectifying until you reach the house. Another solution would be to power the house off AC....you could still rectify and charge batteries if you need, but if the spring is as reliable as you say then the need for batteries and their upkeep and replacement diminishes greatly.

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Again...I'm just envious that you have such a potent stead source of power that has the possibility of being taken advantage of at a fraction of what wind and solar will cost.

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May your path be free of ticks and possums.