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A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 1:32 AM

Outlined here is a sustainable renewable energy solution that can provide 10KW electricity continuously 24/7. Or 240 KWh. It uses no fuel except natural forces and is absolutely pollution free. The wind and solar energy are forms of renewable energy that provide free energy, in the sense that once set up, apart from maintenance the energy they yield is free. Any list of renewable energy sources that you might commonly come across contains the following:-

1) Solar, including PV and thermal and CSP and CPV.
2) Wind
3) Tidal
4) Wave
5) Biomass
6) Bio-fuels ( including algae)
7) Geothermal
8) Hydroelectric
9) Osmotic
10) Ocean thermal
The amazing thing about this list is that it does not include either atmospheric pressure or gravity as a source of energy. Having said that look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaB8UrNXSho
The way in which the elevator cage with passenger is lifted using just a partial vacuum and atmospheric pressure is quite astounding, don't you agree! No power is needed when descending, just the force of gravity. If this had been described in words one in ten would have said it is impossible, but since it isn't ……!

So although these sources of energy, gravity and atmospheric pressure, have never yet been successfully tapped they are as perennial and ever present as the wind or solar. Can we utilize them to produce power ?

Have a look at this drawing:

As can be seen the counterweights are connected to an open ended shuttle by cable, so that when the counterweights are released there is practically no resistance to their descent except for the friction at the generator spool and the friction where the open ended shuttle is touching the tube. Suppose the height at which the counterweight is situated is 10m and that the generators which they are turning by means of the cable (just as in a car alternator) are capable of generating 5 KW. http://www.aurasystems.com/pages/prod_exploded.html

Lastly the vacuum device seen (attached by ducting to the tubes containing the shuttles) at the bottom right of the picture can consist of a multi turbine system with a backing pump if needed, needs 3 KW of power to operate. Then the sequence is as follows the counterweight weighing 150 Kg is released, generating 14.7 KJ of energy and taking about 1.4 seconds. This means that 7.25 KW approx. are available to turn the generator which needs only 5KW ! The generator which is generating 5 KW of electricity supplies the vacuum motor which needs only 3KW of power. All this time the counterweight has been descending and the open ended shuttle has been rising. When the shuttle is almost at the top of its tube it is sealed by means of an actuator or similar device converting the open ended shuttle into a closed air-tight piston.

Atmospheric pressure is now introduced above the piston with the result that there exists a partial vacuum below the piston and atmospheric pressure above. If a vacuum of 1 torr is achieved. The piston (30 cms dia) would have 706.5 Kgf acting on it while it needs to lift only 150 Kg ( i.e., the weight of the counterweight) . As the shuttle travels downwards under the force of atmospheric pressure the counterweight travels upwards till it reaches its original position. The piston is once more unsealed turning it into an open ended shuttle and the whole cycle keeps repeating. Looking at the diagram above, one of the tubes and counterweights is used exclusively to create a vacuum in the system while the other tubes and counterweights, use this vacuum in a parasitical manner to produce usable electricity by spinning their generators, the generators are geared to produce electricity both while the counterweights are descending and ascending. Thus it is possible conservatively to generate 10 KW of clean, sustainable, renewable energy.

What I really want to know is , is our technology up to it ? I think it is, things like valves, vacuum pumps ( turbines, blowers etc,.) friction reducing materials, pulleys etc., have changed beyond comprehension, in fact it should be possible to monitor the whole process, through strategic placing of pressure sensors. If that is indeed the case and it can be done, the system has a small footprint, needs little maintenance and what maintenance there is will be basic. Put one in every house (or garden) it would generate enough electricity, to cook, bathe, wash clothes, run all of the household appliances, heat the house AND still have enough left over to (a) either charge your cars lithium ion battery OR make and compress enough hydrogen through electrolysis to use in a hydrogen fuel cell.

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#1

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 4:27 AM

'....The amazing thing about this list is that it does not include either atmospheric pressure or gravity as a source of energy.....'

.

That qualifies as amazing to you? Well then you are in for a treat, though its probably best if you sit down for this.

.

Here are numerous other things that didn't make the list as sources of energy....and each of these is at least as feasible for net energy production as the two you list, but many are actually more feasible!

.

.

Sneezing-driven pneumatic generators.

.

Rodent-run-rotor-generators (3RG tech).

.

Cow-mooing acoustic generators.

.

Pre-procrastination inverse potential cap and trade.

.

Crap and evade.

.

Demanding reparations in the form of usable energy for years of blatant violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy by laundry machines everywhere (disappearing one sock at a time to the ethereal 'hoszone layer')

.

Tapping human stress relief in forms such as 'venting' and 'blowing off steam'.

.

Harnessing thoughtless tolerance, teen angst, and the colors that don't rhyme with any other standard words (e.g. orange, purple, silver, etc...)

.

.

.

You are welcome.

.

Look, the problem with your idea is that you are attempting to violate the laws of thermodynamics.

.

More specifically,

.

'... Then the sequence is as follows the counterweight weighing 150 Kg is released, generating 14.7 KJ of energy and taking about 1.4 seconds. This means that 7.25 KW approx. are available to turn the generator which needs only 5KW ! The generator which is generating 5 KW of electricity supplies the vacuum motor which needs only 3KW of power....'

.

If 14.7KJ of energy is available by dropping a weight from a certain height, doesn't it make sense that if would require at least that amount of energy to raise it back up to that height?

.

Your 3KW vacuum motor may be able to raise it back up to the original height, but it will take longer than it did to fall, and the additional time will cause the energy to lift the weight to be larger than what you received by harnessing its fall, even though the power is lower.

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#11
In reply to #1

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 1:38 PM

You forgot one! Methane collecting Whoopie cushions on every cows..umm,...posterior.

That way we can save the environment, and create an entertaining work experience for the lucky workers that get to hook them up to an ultra high efficiency burner.

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 5:15 PM

If only the Skull and Bones Club had written down some of their researches....

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#124
In reply to #11

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/11/2013 8:50 AM

Methane collecting Whoopie cushions on every cows

Dont laugh! i just found out from a cattle rancher that in the state of Texas there is a tax of around $50/yr on emisions from each head of cattle.

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#2

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 4:58 AM

Hi,

I am new here but it doesn't take much to see that truth-is-not-a-compromise does not have a clue, he certainly is avoiding the truth, which is that it is a pretty good post.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 5:15 AM

'...it doesn't take much to see that....'

...and you seem well suited for that task.

.

It does, apparently, take just a little more to get it right though.

'....truth-is-not-a-compromise does not have a clue....'

Well, of course I don't!

I don't need a clues for this scenario because I already know the answer (with a high degree of certainty).

.

It would be selfish of me to be holding on to a clue when people like you are obviously in such desperate need.

.

I don't want to discourage you, check with some other people.

Perhaps someone will have something you recognize as a clue (since neither the comment about violation of the laws of thermo, or the comment about the energy required to lift an object being at least as much as the energy attainable from the object falling the same height, are sufficient to be deemed clues for your purposes).

.

.

.

Now... what are the odds that screen names 'Harami' and 'Notary' actually belong to the same person?

Isn't that a violation of CR4 rules?

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#9
In reply to #2

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 10:49 AM

Well, this seems to be a gathering place for clueless, first-time posters.

There are two of you here, so far.

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#13
In reply to #9

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 5:29 PM

I'll need to revise my first post.

There are actually three clueless people here, only two are first time posters.

The third clueless poster has "regaled" us with his fantasies before.

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#16
In reply to #13

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 10:10 PM

yeah those "not enough temperature difference" you bought in to left you fantasizing a fantasy as well...

but we will wait for an actual adherence to OP q's, ...

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#15
In reply to #9

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 10:06 PM

and the third clueless to the q's asked at times; but we will wait for some to actually get read...

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#24
In reply to #2

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 9:12 AM

No he has a clue. He is not avoiding the truth, tell me, just exactly WHAT law of physics did he avoid?

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#4

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 8:16 AM

Keep thinking, but please see my posts where formulating simpler questions would have avoided likely confusion by some here-identified-above, will be by some called an unfairness to the reader, as a college English Prof pointed out over 30 years ago (yes F'y and L and S and T) ... that is how long grammar challenges..

and so will the armchair, but very knowledgeable para- and real- engineering types and real E's really can do... wildly and too at times understandably- critics really to a benefit if you get some persistence and courage and interpolate more so, and reply in 1 or 2 points at a time, and see how much of their water rolls off and ask again.

they 2 funny 2 , eh?

1) "Outlined here is a sustainable renewable energy solution"

hmm: do you mean a portion or all is very new? Do you mean somethings that we have found are already listed by carbon-credit-broker non-geothermal home owner, A.Gore, has listed and world-wide persuaded teachers to not entertain questions by kids in the class rooms forced to watch a convenient misrepresentation ... ?

or

Do you mean to ask what we think for discussion / ?

2) Please list all the associated maintenance of the first thinker of each application you list as follows:

a- sales concept, design concept, first text or communication:

expense of-

the cell ph to the office to the meetings to promote installation-

to getting in the car of contributing to the tiny minutia of percentage of global warming that is cyclically ocuring (how much no one has shown 1% tracking there of conclusively for any court venue)

to all participants, promoters, designers, contractors, all of all getting intheir trucks and cars to inmpliment "savings"

Please track for us the ENTIRE carbon footprint, and within this given a 20-year life cycle , though so many listed 'sustainables' above have many unseen 10 year survival rates unless the backs of hard laboring large and small - 'those other' - non-benefiting engineers to factory workers are broken by taxation leading to the VERY-FEW benefiting from credits and entitlements and that like...

Please demonstrate this per KWH or 100KWH produced.

Please take the 24/7 frame and x 20 years sharing the run-hours, maintenance, management, and further required fundraising ALL CARBON FOOTPRINT AGAIN and folks-hours relatively, respectively, etc, etc.

Please show the Physicists of world/city- news interviews WHY not even 5% may be accomplished in 50 years... with point-proto-typical to end 20 years life cycle all in the mathematics as evidence.

3) DO NOT STOP THINKING. I am excited and PROFIT from "66 -to-94%" sustainable's, like GeoThermal -near grade - 5ft to 500 ft Earth Coupling that can cool processes, preheat structures, ice-melt bridges simply because of cost-efficient and very usable temperature differences other "friends" miss. -Performance guaranteed closures in 5 minute PE, ME interviews at large corporate meetings.

redesigned plastic pipe pond coils on a single circulator has proven to be about 94% sustainable compared to any process chiller, but a couple pages of explanation and tracking shows the lifecycle results.

4) Air Solar installed, inexpensively maintained every year filter changing, 10 year de-dusting, installed in 1980; and still 'cooking' 1500 sq ft of a 3000 liv sq ft over a basement... 1 blower motor change-out in 33 years running. 2 (for redundacy) snap disc temp sensors buried in silicone, continue operating.

5) I am learning to further avoiding generalities, as fast as recognizing if "they" don't get it, -likely, it aint the class, it is the deliberation.

6) Riches ARE deceiving. (just another absolute truth). If ya made a buck with your sustainable's, tell us WHO moved that buck to you , and how; but I note a following of an income-productive crowd of folks (clients, biz-name-dropping, college professorships, gatherings "?" ) does not make a lecturer or ranter accurate in their information.

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#5

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 8:16 AM

Well, wind and wave energy are both due to atmospheric pressure. Tidal energy and hydroelectric energy are both due to gravity.

A number of the 10 sources you cite have been used to produce energy, in some cases a lot of energy, for a long time. There really isn't anything new there.

The vacuum elevator is less efficient than a standard elevator, since the partial vacuum must continuously be re-generated. It might be somewhat more efficient if the air sucked out at the top to provide 'pull' is then injected into the bottom to provide 'push'. But the whole system would be prone to leaks, so the efficiency would be poor.

The 'improved' version you attempt to describe sounds like an 'over unity' device, which is impossible. If you think you can get more energy out than you put in, you have deluded yourself.

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 8:25 AM

"A number of the 10 sources you cite have been used to produce energy, in some cases a lot of energy, for a long time. There really isn't anything new there."

- OK, meant that. Easily Agree w/ USB.

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#14
In reply to #5

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 5:55 PM

With the exception of the first two sentences, I agree completely with your comment.

.

'....Well, wind and wave energy are both due to atmospheric pressure. Tidal energy and hydroelectric energy are both due to gravity.....'

.

While wind and wave energy would not be feasible as we know it without atmospheric pressure, and tidal and hydroelectric would similarly not be feasible as we currently understand without gravity, suggesting that these things are 'due' to atmospheric pressure and gravity is a little misleading.

.

Being a 'requirement for' is distinct from 'being due to'.

.

Gravity is a requirement for populations of wild bison, but I would not say that bison are due to gravity.

.

Wind energy is driven mostly by solar energy and the rotation of the planet. Wave energy is similarly driven.

Hydroelectric energy is driven mostly by solar energy.

Tidal energy is driven mostly by the rotation of the planet relative to the moon and sun.

.

It would be better to state these were 'due' to the significant driving force than pressure and gravity.

.

I know you realize how those systems function. I know I am not providing any novel information to you in describing the driving forces. The reason I wrote this is that saying the energy is due to pressure and gravity could be seen as confirming the OP's misguided ideas about energy production.

Suggesting the

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#18
In reply to #5

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 12:40 AM

you said...

Well, wind and wave energy are both due to atmospheric pressure. Tidal energy and hydroelectric energy are both due to gravity.

I'm not nit picking but what's the difference between wave and tidal energy? I thought that both were a result of the moons gravity

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#20
In reply to #18

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 3:06 AM

Tidal energy typically refers to energy in the periodic flows brought about by the earth's rotation relative to the moon and (to a lesser degree) the sun.

.

Wave energy typically refers to the energy in the much higher frequency periodic change in immediately local height of water due to waves. Waves are in large part generated by wind, which is driven mostly by variations in solar energy as the earth rotates relative to the sun.

.

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#47
In reply to #5

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:51 PM

The vacuum elevator is less efficient than a standard elevator, since the partial vacuum must continuously be re-generated. It might be somewhat more efficient if the air sucked out at the top to provide 'pull' is then injected into the bottom to provide 'push'. But the whole system would be prone to leaks, so the efficiency would be poor.

Someone tried to take out a patent for a system like that, didn't work!

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#66
In reply to #47

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 6:46 AM

An idea does not have to be workable to patentable.

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#7

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 9:34 AM

You mix in your "logical" analysis power and energy thus your problem. Try to make an ENERGY only balance considering as well all frictions and resistances in your system and you will come ON YOUR OWN to the result that it CANNOT work. If you cannot make it then let me know and I shall explain how to do it.

As an other remark: pressure is a potential value and energy can be harvested ONLY between 2 potential levels which ever the energy type you consider.

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#8

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 9:58 AM

I notice this is your first post. Had you looked around at past postings on this forum before you posted, you would see that this is the wrong place to get a free-energy (over-unity) device accepted. Your post started out discussing 'sustainable renewable energy' so I was expecting a novel way of utilizing this, but the device described doesn't make use of it.

Surely you're not just pumping hits to a web-site?

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#10

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 11:20 AM

I'm sure there will be one on every street corner very soon

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#17

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/05/2013 10:25 PM

Here is the simple maths that will debunk this vaccuum lift:

Power to pull up the lift , Pwr = Fx V (1) , where F is force , V is velocity.

For the vaccuum lift, you will need power to pump out the air:

The pressure you need to push up the lift is, Pressure = F/A

Power of air pump, Power=Q x pressure (2) , where Q is the flow rate.

Q = V x A (3), where V is velocity of Lift, A is the lift shaft x-section area

Plug (3) in (2) : Power = V x A x pressure = F x V .

Exactly same power as (1) . So, the power required to generate the vacuum is same as you use a cable to pull up the lift.

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#19

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 1:11 AM

Thank you for applying for a name. Anonymous is not comfortable to me, nor to most people.

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#21

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 6:50 AM

i don't quite get the design such as:

1-st) 4 - what there is 2 shuttles in-phase (just suspicious)

2-nd) what's the trick with the vaccuum gen. to achive 5W from 3W input

if the 2-nd's what you say - that sh­¡t will work 2kW is very good if it produces that

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#44
In reply to #21

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:46 PM

i don't quite get the design such as:

1-st) 4 - what there is 2 shuttles in-phase (just suspicious)

2-nd) what's the trick with the vaccuum gen. to achive 5W from 3W input

if the 2-nd's what you say - that sh­¡t will work 2kW is very good if it produces that

No boss, it does not make 5 KW out of 3 KW it is the other way around. Total kinetic energy available from the descending counterweight is about 14.7 KJ, so at least 7.5 KW is available to run the generator, the generator makes 5 KW and this 5 KW is used to run a vacuum motor that consumes 3KW. Does that make sense to you. The total system produces about 10 KW continuously, because one set of counterweights and pistons is providing the vacuum that the other two sets are using to produce useful electricity.

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#67
In reply to #44

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 6:55 AM

WALOOB

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#22

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:03 AM

i gess i'm starting to get that - 1 wire for out 1 for generator . . . . ok

the partial vacuum = the piston must have enough mass to compress some air below it SSSSSO

the amount of power extractable for generators is minor (if any)

this must be calculated (not the question about is there tec. to produce it <- is the question of assembly (solved in proccess))

so ? anything Link to numerical documentation of this project ???

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#23

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 8:01 AM

If this had been described in words one in ten would have said it is impossible...

I'm guessing that you'll find more than one in ten in this forum.

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#26
In reply to #23

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 10:14 AM

In your highlighted portion of the original post, 'this' referred to the vacuum elevator, not to the set of mechanisms described in the drawings.

The vacuum elevator is certainly possible; it would be just a large version of the tubes currently used in such places as Home Depot to transport canisters of cash from the register to the office.

The statement that the OP finds this amazing points to a poor understanding of physics/engineering on his/her part.

To the OP: Make a prototype, either full size or scaled down, of any two parts of this system, and you will find some of the many places where energy is lost. If anything this simple were practical, it would have been built at least a century ago. Yes, generators, vacuum pumps, seals, bearings, etc. are generally more efficient now than a century ago, but those improvements only reduce the losses, they do not eliminate them. You MUST consider the efficiency of every part of the mechanism.

The ONLY source of energy in this entire system is the energy used to lift the weights during construction of the assembly.

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#36
In reply to #26

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 1:52 PM

Not only are vacuum elevators possible, they are already manufactured. Here are just a couple of links:
http://www.daytonaelevator.com/Pneumatic%20Vacuum%20Elevator%20Main%20Page.htm
http://www.signatureelevators.com/pve.htm

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 3:10 PM

Novel, but most elevators use little or no energy on the way down.

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#38
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Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 3:48 PM

But Elevators need brakes for safety and control and these use energy.

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#46
In reply to #37

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:49 PM

Novel, but most elevators use little or no energy on the way down.

Lyn your sheer grasp of physics makes me believe that not only are you the genius that you claim to be, in matters such as the second law of the conservation of energy, but also that the world cannot do without such learned and lucid thinking.

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#72
In reply to #46

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 7:29 AM

That's obvious. Just look at the GA count.

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#25

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 9:25 AM

You can't lift something up with less energy than you get from when it comes down.

How is the "sustainable energy" you opened your posting with come into it? You know, your device has already been built and works very well, but it works with river power. So it uses river power instead of air power.

It is the Peterborough Lift Locks in Ontario, Canada. Two great cylinders are balanced, one down and one up. When the ship goes into the high north lock, the doors close, and a small amount of water is added to the lock. Which sinks to the lower level, and the other side is pushed up by the internal cross connection. Both sides carry ships. Its really quite something to see! youtube video of it here.

But no, even though thousands of kilograms of water and ship are pushed around by only a hundred kilograms of added water, you don't get something for nothing. If the Royal Engineers of 1901 had to use external energy, you will have to do so as well.

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#27
In reply to #25

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 10:34 AM

Hi Yusef1,

As it turns out you are absolutely right when you say that there must have been a machine that worked on the same principle. The machine that I am talking about is the Newcomen Atmospheric Engine, the most powerful of these machines could pump 7 million gallons of water a day, and could lift a counterweight weighing 35 tons using nothing but atmospheric pressure in the presence of a vacuum. The vacuum was created through the condensation of steam and the piston was raised to the top of the cylinder through gravity. Here is an animation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomen_steam_engine

The 'Home Grid' system works in an exactly similar way to the Newcomen atmospheric engine, only instead of condensing steam to create a vacuum, it uses the kinetic energy generated by a descending counterweight (about 14.7 KJ) to turn a generator (about 5 KW) to run a multistage vacuum turbine pump ( about 3 KW) to create a vacuum through the system. That vacuum together with atmospheric pressure lifts the counterweight back to its original height. Hence a repeatable cycle is established, the criteria by which the practicality of the machine is judged. So means have been provided both for the descent of the counterweight as well as for its ascent, that is all that is needed. Power is generated both on the ascent and descent of the counterweight. 10 KW is expected.

I sympathise with the die-hard believers in the second law of the conservation of energy, but as I said sailing ships did it using just existing forces of nature, and surely gravity and atmospheric pressure, fall into the same category. True a vacuum is needed in order to use atmospheric pressure but then a weight needs to be lifted for it to have P.E and the sun has to heat the sea in order to have winds.

When engineers set out on a particular difficult project, all they have to rely on basically is all the information and data that they can gather and evaluate on the project, nothing else, models won't help in more than a cursory way. I think, this is the approach we need to renewable energy, if there is to be any chance of success at all.

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#29
In reply to #27

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 11:10 AM

Notary,

Please note the difference between your proposed system and the Newcomen Engine; the Newcomen uses a "... vacuum (that) was created through the condensation of steam...", the energy in that steam is not free, it came from a fuel that raised the temperature of water above boiling thereby putting latent heat energy into the water. All the Newcomen does is use that latent heat as stored energy to drive the process...there is no free ride, simply a recapture of previously expended energy.

It's not engineering, it's logic; you can't capture energy that wasn't put into a system, regardless of how it gets there, or how you propose to extract it.

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#31
In reply to #29

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 11:15 AM

but...can you burn up aluminum cans to power a ship......wait, same transfer of we did that one last month previous energy. never mind!

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#43
In reply to #29

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:40 PM

Please note the difference between your proposed system and the Newcomen Engine; the Newcomen uses a "... vacuum (that) was created through the condensation of steam...", the energy in that steam is not free, it came from a fuel that raised the temperature of water above boiling thereby putting latent heat energy into the water. All the Newcomen does is use that latent heat as stored energy to drive the process...there is no free ride, simply a recapture of previously expended energy.

It's not engineering, it's logic; you can't capture energy that wasn't put into a system, regardless of how it gets there, or how you propose to extract it.

Dear RAM, the exact point that I am trying to make is that the kinetic energy of the descending counterweight provides more than enough energy to create a vacuum as demonstrated in the working of the vacuum elevator. In the vacuum elevator about 3KW is needed and the vacuum is generated in less than a second (i.e., the 350 Kg weight of the lift cage and passenger begins to rise. ) the KE of the descending counterweight is about 14.7 KJ and time for its descent is 1.4 secs. more than enough to power the vacuum motor and don't forget that that vacuum motor has to evacuate a volume that is two to three times less than the volume being evacuated by the vacuum elevator. So granted the counterweight has to be raised to begin with but after that, as in the Newcomen engine, the raising and lowering of the counterweight is automatic.

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#77
In reply to #43

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 9:32 AM

In all you demonstration you CONTINUE to mix ENERGY and POWER. This clearly means you do not understand the differences and will not be able to get the point.

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#91
In reply to #43

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 12:35 PM

I just now noticed your statement:" the vacuum is generated in less than a second (i.e., the 350 Kg weight of the lift cage and passenger begins to rise. )" [Underlining added]

It is conceivable that the vacuum turbine may be able to reduce the pressure measured at its input to 0.5 atm within 1 second, but the entire volume of the 0.7 m3 chamber must be pumped out before the piston will begin to rise. I seriously doubt if that could occur within one second, and that is just to BEGIN to rise. The pump must continue to run during very nearly the entire lift time.

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#98
In reply to #43

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 9:46 PM

notary,

"...In the vacuum elevator about 3KW is needed and the vacuum is generated in less than a second..." According to the spec sheet, the five turbines (vacuum pumps) draw a combined 5kW, not 3 as you state. Also, the it draws this power throughout the one minute it operates, not in "...less than a second...". The vacuum builds up throughout the 35 ft trip, not instantaneously or the passengers (up to 450 lbs) would be subject to approximately 1 G of acceleration, and would be traveling at approximately 32 ft/sec (a little bit less than 22 mph) when they reached the top.

I kinda doubt that Granny's artificial hip would take that acceleration very well, and her neck might get broken when she continues moving upward at 22 mph as the lift suddenly hits its upper limits.

All that other practical stuff aside, at least you recognize that "...granted the counterweight has to be raised to begin with...", which forms your admission that the original state of the system has stored potential energy that had to come from somewhere; i.e., work was done on the system to "charge" it.

Look, if there was enough energy to be captured don't you think someone would have designed the system to do that? That's what happens in commercial high rise elevators, but the specialty motors and control systems do that through a well known process called regenerative braking, and none of those make the claim that more energy is captured than is expended.

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#30
In reply to #27

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 11:11 AM

W A L O O B

Sailing ships use energy from the wind, just as a windmill does. No wind, no motion. The atmospheric steam engine needs steam (which needs energy in the form of heat to produce). Your crackpot system WILL NOT WORK.

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#32
In reply to #30

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 11:24 AM

I know what WALOB means (and agree 110%... over-unity) but have not seen WALOOB before.

If not a typo, could you elighten me on what the second "O" stands for?

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 11:28 AM

L O O = "load of old"

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#35
In reply to #33

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 11:53 AM

Understood, ripeness can make a difference. Thank you.

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#41
In reply to #30

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:27 PM

Well excuse me saying so , if my crackpot system should not work, then neither should the crack pot vacuum elevator system work! The thing is that it does.

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#45
In reply to #41

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:47 PM

Incorrect logic linkage.

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#50
In reply to #45

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 8:06 PM

Incorrect logic linkage.

I thought he meant that you would need steam and condensation to make the vacuum elevator work. If that was not the case, I apologise.

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#48
In reply to #41

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:55 PM

I know the "vacuum"elevator works. The concept is well known and does not violate the fundamental laws of physics.

However the elevator requires 30 Amps at 220V to create the PARTIAL vacuum to lift the load.

There is no energy output associated with the elevator and there is no practical way that your contraption will produce a net positive power output.

"the generators are geared to produce electricity both while the counterweights are descending and ascending"

It just doesn't work that way. All the wishful thinking you can muster will never make it work that way.

You've thrown a multitude of meaningless numbers out, while not providing a single shred of evidence that any of this works. Because it will not.

Keep dreaming. Stick to fiction.

Good luck, write if you get work.

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#53
In reply to #41

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 8:25 PM

The difference is that the vacuum elevator has a source of energy (the electric [or other possible] energy that runs the vacuum pump); besides the initial energy stored in your lifted counterweights, your system has no source of energy.

Atmospheric pressure is NOT a source of energy. It has been pushing on you your entire lifetime, and has had no effect, except when you move to higher or lower altitude. It does help get air into your lungs, but ONLY if your muscles first move your ribs outward (working AGAINST air pressure). Those muscles provide the energy required to move the air, not atmospheric pressure.

Your calculation of 14.7kJ for the PE stored in the 150kg is correct, but you would be doing very well if your pulley and alternator/generator assembly could convert 1/3 of that PE into Electrical energy during the fall. You will need to store that electrical energy, since you can't start pumping until the weight is all the way to the bottom. One way to store part of it would be to have another chamber being evacuated during the fall, but then you need more valves and a method of actuating those valves.

Of the 4.9kJ that got converted to electrical energy, the vacuum pump could perhaps convert half into 'vacuum energy', enough to lift the weight 1/6 of the way back up.

Then you're done! no energy left to continue the lifting, and that is without attempting to extract energy via the generator on the way up.

You can NOT compare powers of devices unless you also compare times. You may have found a vacuum pump that requires less power than your generator provides, but you must consider how long it will take to do the intended task. I guarantee it will be waaay longer than the time of fall.

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#34
In reply to #27

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 11:50 AM

notary,

"I sympathise with the die-hard believers in the second law........................"

I sympathize with fools, too.

Personally, I find the laws of physics quite adequate in their present form. I see no reason to create fantasy "machines" that might rewrite the laws of physics to suit your "creative" interpretation of them.

I suggest that you use your considerable energy productively by volunteering at some social service agency in your area.

Or, perhaps try to write some science fiction books.

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#39
In reply to #34

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 4:35 PM

'...Or, perhaps try to write some science fiction books....'

.

...or perhaps, pseudoscience fiction? That's a genre, right?

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#42
In reply to #34

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:30 PM

What the fracking hell are you talking about! It is just such complacency that keeps you tethered to earth and not out there soemwhere in the Universe exploring new planets and galaxies. (That is sarcasm by the way) look after what you have or at least look for solutions where possible.

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#69
In reply to #42

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 7:03 AM

<...where possible...>

Exactly. The contraption is still ALOOB.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

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#70
In reply to #42

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 7:19 AM

Pssssssssssst! Americans don't understand sarcasm!

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#40
In reply to #27

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 4:54 PM

'...I sympathise with the die-hard believers in the second law of the conservation of energy...'

.

Okay, I'll bite. What is the 'second law of conservation of energy'???

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#51
In reply to #40

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 8:11 PM

Okay, I'll bite. What is the 'second law of conservation of energy'???

One thing I am sure about is that it is not anally retentive, by which I mean that it does not preclude new ideas or technology, after all look at all the new technology which the second law of conservation of energy would have great difficulty in answering or coming to grips with. Take the distance that the light from a tiny laser pointer travels, consuming some milliwatts of energy... and things like that and you will start wondering just how far the second law of the conservation of energy can stretch.

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#52
In reply to #51

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 8:14 PM

It can't stretch as far as your imagination.

Nor your wishful thinking.

OK, now I'm just toying with you because I'm getting bored with this.

Cheers

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#93
In reply to #51

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 12:41 PM

Well, if you won't state it outright yet, at least tell me how many laws of conservation of energy there are?

.

I'm assuming since you are referencing the second, that there must be at least one additional at a minimum... but the range of numbers >=2 is pretty broad. Would you please narrow it down for me, to a specific number?

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#96
In reply to #93

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 5:38 PM

Er - I've got THE stuck in my mind. Love someone to get rid of it (but somehow can't see it).

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#68
In reply to #27

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 6:59 AM

If a system does not have the capacity to do work (energy) then one ought not to be surprised when work does not come out of it at any rate (power) other than zero.

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#108
In reply to #27

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/08/2013 10:21 AM

Well. Build a model.

Let us watch it work.

Have it examined by an independent team to prove over unity.

Win a million dollars for your trouble.

I'll build you a statue, bigger than Tesla's statue at Niagara Falls.

Otherwise, as fun as this is, you have not convinced me that your vacuum elevator is an over unity device. And before you jump up, be advised...you won't be able to convince me unless I get to examine a working model. If it works, I will do all the above. Until then I have to unsubscribe since clearly this thread is just a happy puppy pile of granola bars. (full of fruits and nuts)

I wish you no ill will. This advice is sound, and you know it.

Regards.

(and this is how you can win the million. No. Really. But be prepared for a lot less respect than you have got from here! Their money is at stake! But, you know, I am willing to put up with a lot of xxxxx for a million semoleons.)

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#125
In reply to #27

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/11/2013 3:59 PM

Like most energy from nothing designers you are confusing energy and power, power is the rate of energy transfer and a 3 kW compressor generates 3 kJ of energy every second in the form of compressed air. That means to lift your elevator that requires 147 kJ or energy it will take 49 seconds. However the descending lift pumps out 5 kJ per second so takes 29.4 seconds to descend.

So since they are connected via a cable that stretches very little the system isn't going to work because the lift descends faster than the one that ascends meaning the interconnecting cable must get longer during each cycle until both elevators are at the bottom.

First rule of thermodynamics is that you can never get more energy out of a system than you put in and if you think about it for a while it has to be that way.

Let's suppose for a moment that you can generate more energy than you consume and you fed the excess energy back into the system to generate even more surplus energy ad infinitum. The end result would be an infinite amount of energy that would destroy the universe and since the universe is still here, well at least it was last time I looked and has been for quite some time now it means that nobody including the aliens in flying saucers has ever produced a machine that generates more energy than it consumes.

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#99
In reply to #25

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 10:24 PM

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

why not stop the broken pat verbal superfluousness and just tell him clearly: (clearer than misunderstanding work-differentials allow for an energy exchange, such as earth coupled cooling of ~ 9x's more work done than the work to introduce a warmer media/fluid/air whatever:

SHOW HIM in your terms for us, his "COP" or something you can better grammarcon.

All I can see is for gravity to be "an energy source" as yus said it would tkae certain energy to create what I sell: work differentials, N: you or your gravity- idea of an energy source:

how much energy do you need to allow a situation of a DIFFERENCE in an energy state to be acted upon? You're standing on the Earth, like a brick, and to come down to stand again or return the brick to a non-working energy state, how much energy is required to raise the brick a foot, say, to let it return to the non-energy state if Gravity is "an energy source" ?

ignore those who do not see moving a media is not the same as moving heat--

so many say they MOVE HEAT but wow! all they can do is move some media (10% of the total work in Earth-Coupled-Cooling) and the media with a difference in temperature gets involved in WORK-differential-energy-transfer, but all by its designed lonesome means... at 90% of WORK DONE that no human did at all.

I don't no how to break out all of your concerns to seeing the LACK of 1% net more usable energy as work differentiated from your model and example of inputted energy, net-wise, unity-wise.

You would have to have a non-gravitational state then move your system or media of mechanical things with a little effoert INTO a new gravitational DIFFERENCE in WORK, work and power-related energy for it to exchange (without you) itself to another energy-state... like from where L lives in fantasies of improbably temperature differentials would then be worked on by the state I live in that chops ninetimes more of the expense out (saving clients 84% to near 90%, at least that's what their controllers declare) with moving IN TO the WORK of another difference in energy exchange of certain evidennce upheld.

Those who question whether it is THEM moving heat or just a media have all kinds of theories-- . But they still pay for chillers at nine times more expensive cooling than where it fits to use an Earth coupled chiller systemically of far less tech and refrigeration related overhead... not even to look at the photos, the watt metered, the lack of rfg tech payouts and repairs...

I know if it is only ~ 75% to 84% sustainable, ya get off topiccccccced.

those schemers are jes 2 funny !

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#28

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 10:55 AM

We have amazing technology available to us and it gets better every year. The problem is we cannot generate something from nothing. Over-unity in a closed system is just NOT possible. Learn about basics physics and accept the facts.

The scenario presented is a classic erroneous description of a system to make it APPEAR you can get more energy out than you put in. The error is caused by sloppy analysis of the ACTUAL energy used/created in each step of the proposed system. If/when a proper and thorough analysis is performed, it will become clear that the proposed system will consume/dissipate energy and will NOT create a surplus.

If you are a scammer or snake oil salesman, you are unlikely to find suckers on this site.

If you are really sincere (and WANT to learn) about energy efficient technology, please find someone with the proper math & physics skills (Scientist, Engineer, nerd, etc.) that can show you the correct way to analyze your ideas (with equations AND UNITS). The less time and energy you spend on unworkable ideas like over-unity, the more time and energy you can spend on making realistic incremental improvements that could benefit everyone.

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#49
In reply to #28

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 7:57 PM

We have amazing technology available to us and it gets better every year. The problem is we cannot generate something from nothing. Over-unity in a closed system is just NOT possible. Learn about basics physics and accept the facts.


The point is that it is not a closed system, a closed system is one where the same energy source is being used to work against ltself. Take the over balanced wheel as the ideal example, where the weights are supposed to weigh 6 pounds going up one side and 9 pounds coming down the other. In the 'Home Grid' system you are using one system to generate energy during the descent of the counterweight ( gravity) and another system to pull the counterweight up ( atmospheric pressure in the presence of a vacuum).

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#54
In reply to #49

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 8:36 PM

What you describe is NOT two independent systems; you must use the energy generated by the falling weight to produce the partial vacuum to lift the weight back up. Without that partial vacuum, atmospheric pressure is useless.

Again Atmospheric pressure is NOT a source of energy!

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#55
In reply to #54

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 8:43 PM

I wish I could remember more of the first-time posters who have come here with ideas to save the world, and no matter how many rational members point out the folly of their dreams, they refuse to accept any denial that they have redefined the laws of physics.

joe.fordham is the only name I can remember.

There was the barge guy, and the guy who never wore a shirt, but their names and the names of the rest escape me.

I'll add notary to the list.

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#56
In reply to #55

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 9:02 PM
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#58
In reply to #55

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 10:46 PM

I wish I could remember more of the first-time posters who have come here with ideas to save the world, and no matter how many rational members point out the folly of their dreams, they refuse to accept any denial that they have redefined the laws of physics.

joe.fordham is the only name I can remember.

There was the barge guy, and the guy who never wore a shirt, but their names and the names of the rest escape me.

Sounds interesting, any chance that these posts are still around and we can have a look, especially the one from the guy without a shirt.

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#59
In reply to #58

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 10:55 PM

You have ceased to be even remotely humorous.

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#60
In reply to #55

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 12:08 AM

Lyn...take your own advice and use google!

result 1

result 2

result 3

result 4

result 5

result 6

result 7

result 8

result 9

result 10

Might make for some fascinating reading....

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#62
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Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 2:29 AM

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#94
In reply to #60

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 1:21 PM

Maybe "Dilithium Crystals" would balance the power equation.

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#57
In reply to #54

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/06/2013 10:44 PM

What you describe is NOT two independent systems; you must use the energy generated by the falling weight to produce the partial vacuum to lift the weight back up. Without that partial vacuum, atmospheric pressure is useless.

At last some progress, would you admit then that the KE of the descending counterweight provides enough energy at 14.7 KJ to run the multi-stage turbine vacuum device. Remember that it needs 3 KW, I can give you the link if you need it. Also in the 'Home Grid' the volume to be evacuated is less than half that evacuated in the vacuum elevator. Time taken to generate the vacuum is less than a second, confirmed this from the manufacturer. Now since enough energy exists to generate the vacuum, why are you so obdurate that it cannot be used ? Now comes the interesting part, the pressure exerted by atmospheric pressure is much greater than that needed, for instance if the counterweight weighs 150 KG and the piston surface area is 30 cms, the available force from atmospheric pressure will be 706.5 Kg. So again, just as in the energy generated by the descending counterweight, a lot of margin for error left left over.

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#61
In reply to #57

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 12:43 AM

Did you read my post #53?

NO, I will NOT admit that the 14.7kJ is enough energy to run the multi-stage turbine vacuum device; that is, not for long enough to lift the weight back to the top.

I regularly work with large vacuum devices. We do require significantly greater vacuum levels than this device, so it's not really a fair comparison, but our times to produce a vacuum ONCE are measured in hours, while using three different kinds of vacuum pumps at once, at a total power around 30kW for the vacuum pumping system.

Please do provide the link to your turbine vacuum pump. Once I've seen the specs, I'll be able to get some idea of how long it would take for it to produce the vacuum level required.

You describe your chamber as something like 30cm in diameter and 10 m long. Your piston has an area of A=πR2 =3.14*(0.15*.0.15)≈0.071m2. Atmospheric pressure can be expressed as 10,340 kg/m2, so the atmospheric force pushing on each side of a 30 cm piston would be about 730kgf, and thus your value of 706.5kgf is reasonable. Now it will take 150kgf just to prevent the weight from moving down; to lift it back up at the same speed it fell will require another 150kgf, for a total of 300kgf. When you add a little to overcome friction, you get just about 350kgf. In other words, your vacuum level will need to be close to 1/2 an atmosphere.

With an area of 0.071m2 and a length of 10m, your cylinder volume is 0.71m3. You plan to pump half the air out of this cylinder in one second! Good Luck!

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#76
In reply to #61

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 8:52 AM

NO, I will NOT admit that the 14.7kJ is enough energy to run the multi-stage turbine vacuum device; that is, not for long enough to lift the weight back to the top.

These vacuum elevators are available everywhere, why don't you try one out and see if you, and the weight of the cage, get lifted within a second and we can move on from there.

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#84
In reply to #76

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 11:17 AM

10 meters is three stories! Within ONE second? You must accelerate from zero, possibly travel at speed for a while, then decelerate back to zero. The most gentle case will be with no travel at speed. In this case you must accelerate for 5 m in 0.5 s and decelerate for 5 m 0.5 s.

d=1/2 at2=, so a=2d/t2=2*5/(0.5*0.5)=10/0.25=40m/s2. That's over 4 g's of acceleration. The passenger would be crumpled on the floor during the first half second, then fly up and hit the ceiling during the second half second.

YOU are the one who needs to find one of these elevators. Then time how long it takes to go up 3 stories, and check the power of its vacuum pump.

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#85
In reply to #84

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 11:25 AM

This guy is totally delusional a raving lunatic. I don't know why any of us are still here.

OK, curiosity.

info@daytonaelevator.com

  • "Flexibility and Speed: 30 feet/min, available in 2 and 3 stops, up to 35 feet, installation is less than a week and can be relocated if needed"

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#86
In reply to #85

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 11:40 AM

Unfortunately, your link is an email address, not a URL. I went to daytonaelevator.com, but did not find any data. Where did you find the 30 ft/min?

Not that it matters! The 30 ft/min is all we need. That gives us over 60 seconds to go the 10 meters.

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#88
In reply to #86

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 12:03 PM

OOPS.

Pneumatic Vacuum Elevators - Daytona Elevator: Residential ...
Scroll down 1/4 page to (right side):

  • Flexibility and Speed: 30 feet/min, available in 2 and 3 stops, up to 35 feet, installation is less than a week and can be relocated if needed

I can just see granny pinned to the floor at 30 feet/second.

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#92
In reply to #88

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 12:40 PM

Right! On both issues!

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#103
In reply to #84

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/08/2013 2:12 AM

10 meters is three stories! Within ONE second? You must accelerate from zero, possibly travel at speed for a while, then decelerate back to zero.

I have to admit that the way in which you attack a problem, trying to find out whether the facts say it is possible is good. But why after that, go into hyperbole, no-one stated that the cage would reach the top of 10 m in 1 seconds, what was said was that it would start to move within 1 sec. Then either ultra capacitors, that would be primed by the power generated by the counterweight as it ascends, or flywheels or a combination of both would be used to stimulate the electric motor so that the vacuum is maintained throughout the pistons descent. In any case, it doesn't really matter how long the counterweight takes as long as it generates the requisite power on the way. So if atmospheric pressure is exerting 700 Kg, then the counterweight would take about 1.8 secs to ascend but since it would have a KE of more than 9KW it doesn't matter, it has to generate only 5 KW and so on.

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#111
In reply to #103

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/08/2013 1:13 PM

"I have to admit that the way in which you attack a problem, trying to find out whether the facts say it is possible is good." I seem to have detected that attitude. Perhaps that is why I continue to waste my time here...

You never mentioned supercapacitors (ultra capacitors) or flywheels in your system. Not that it matters; ALL systems have losses. Even superconducting magnets have losses, until someone can come up with a room-temperature superconductor.

"In any case, it doesn't really matter how long the counterweight takes as long as it generates the requisite power on the way." As nickname has indicated at least twice, You keep confusing power and energy. Energy is the product of power and time. The longer a device produces or utilizes power, the more energy is involved. It DOES make a difference how long it takes.

"So if atmospheric pressure is exerting 700 Kg" Atmospheric pressure is exerting 700 kgf (notice the 'f') upward on the bottom of the piston, AND downward on the top of the piston, for a net force of zero, UNTIL your vacuum pump removes some of the air from above the piston. There will be no upward motion until the air below the piston has been reduced to less than roughly 0.7 atm. At that point, the force upward on the bottom of the piston will be roughly 490 kgf, leaving a net force of 700-490=210 kgf downward on the piston. Subtracting the 150 kgf of your weight and say 10 kgf friction forces leaves 50 kgf to accelerate the system. In this, I'm assuming that your 150 kgf of weight is the amount by which your counterweight exceeds the weight of the piston and its valves. Suppose you are able to make your piston assembly weigh 25 kgf, then the counterweight must weigh 175 kgf, and the mass of the system is 200 kg, plus cables, pulleys, etc. The inertia of the system must also include the rotary inertia of the generator rotor. a=f/m = 50 kgf/(200+)kg, so the acceleration of the system at this point is approximately 0.25 m/s2. That is roughly 1/40 of a g!

x=1/2 at2, or t=√(2ax)=√(2*9.8*10)=14 seconds for the piston to reach the bottom. If your vacuum pump can produce a better vacuum, that time can be shortened, and of course the vacuum pump can be turned off some time before the piston reaches the bottom.

Again, the bottom line is that your system has no source of energy other than the initial lifting of the counterweight, so it can output no more energy than that generated by a single fall of the weight, and if you use that energy as output to the home, then there is no energy left to lift the weight back up even a little.

This is my last post to this thread! Goodby and good luck - you'll need a lot!

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#116
In reply to #111

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/08/2013 5:51 PM

You may want to re-read that checking your ups and downs (or maybe it's me - in which case apologies).

This is the bit that confused me:

"There will be no upward motion until the air below the piston has been reduced to less than roughly 0.7 atm"

General principal and numbers sound fine.

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#118
In reply to #116

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/08/2013 6:11 PM

So it is! I keep getting confused between the motion of the piston and the weight...

The statement is correct if you understand it as:"There will be no upward motion of the weight until the air below the piston has been reduced to less than roughly 0.7 atm"

Thanks for checking the principle and numbers.

Dick

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#121
In reply to #118

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/08/2013 6:22 PM

Cheers. (I frequently confuse le and al, especially after 5 or 6 pints; but the ol' brain is still mostly working along the right lines).

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#123
In reply to #116

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/09/2013 5:02 AM

If read the whole he meant "above" but wrote "below".

May I make again a remark: energy can be harvested ONLY between 2 potential levels and it will ALWAYS flow from HIGH level to LOW. In the case of a mass M in the gravity potential field the energy is harvested if it moves under the field from high to low i.e. from far to near the other bigger mass. In fact since gravity intensity depends on distance it will be an integral with "g" as variable. Because earth radius is so big "g" can be considered as a constant if the movement is on distances small with respect to it.

When the mass should be moved in the other directio SAME energy MUST be applied to it for same stroke.

Unfortunately as all who claim fantastic ideas in energy harvesting systems the author of OP is a NON cultivated person with a VERY low level of knowledge in physics and who is sooo impressed by his idea that he cannot accept to be wrong.

I would close this discussion since it is IMPOSSIBLE as we several times noticed to convice such limited persons where the truth can be found.

Do not take the wrong way his comments HE IS NOT ABLE TO UNDERSTAND and of course he is happy to consider himself as a genius. He will not be the last unfortunately who will try to bend reality to fit his erronated thoughts. Be kind with a fool he is not responsible but avoid him.

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#136
In reply to #61

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/13/2013 1:00 PM

I've got to interject here, will you guys stop thinking in imperial units and stick to metric units. To start with kg in the metric system is a measure of MASS which is the resistance of a given body to a change in motion, force is measured in Newtons and a force of 1 Newton (N) to a 1 kg body will produce an acceleration of 1 m/s/s.

For pressure the standard unit of measure is the Pascal (Pa) which is one Newton/square metre and in the standard atmosphere which is just something used for calculation purposes the pressure is 101.32 kPa or kilo Pascals or 101,320 Nm-2.

Now under the force of gravity which causes a body to accelerate at approximately 9.81 ms-2 a 1 kg mass will produce a downward force of 9.81 N.

So the basic equations you need to understand are

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Potential Energy From Height = Mass x g x Height = Mass x Height x 9.81 ms-2

Kinetic Energy = ½ Mass x Velocity2

Now if you use those equations and the specifications for your generator which usually have an efficiency of around 80 to 85% and the turbine compressor that is supplying your partial vacuum you will find out that your system will just not work.

If you can't cope with the equations and calculations yourself then please supply us with the specifications for your generator and compressor and I'll do the calculations to show that it won't work.

Sorry, but I can't get any fairer than that.

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#137
In reply to #136

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/13/2013 3:40 PM

'....I've got to interject here, will you guys stop thinking in imperial units and stick to metric units......'

.

Metric units using base ten for most units, does have some advantages. I'd be all for it if it just went ahead and made the leap to using base ten for all units.

.

If you are going to ask other people to make a change, you should be willing to make changes yourself. What say you? Will you begin using the modified Metric system, with all units adhering to base 10?

.

Come on. It will be so much better using nanodays, millidays, and decidays instead of seconds, minutes and hours.

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#140
In reply to #137

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/14/2013 10:22 AM

As an amateur astronomer I already do use a form of metric time that is measured in days, and decimal portions thereof.

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#141
In reply to #140

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/14/2013 11:42 PM

Doh!

I really wasn't expecting that. That leaves me with no choice, except to make the shift here and now.

.

I now fully support a complete shift to the metric system (with decimal time of course)!

.

Are there any initiation rituals for new devotees, that I might need to be on the look out for?

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#142
In reply to #141

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/15/2013 1:49 AM

Lack of headaches trying to convert back and forth between imperial and metric. Not forgetting the greatly reduced chance of crashing a billion dollar spacecraft into the surface of Mars because the navigation controllers were working in pounds of thrust and the engine control engineers were working in newtons. End result is a 6 month flight and 4 years of construction created a new crater on Mars surrounded by lots of tiny bits of spacecraft.

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#145
In reply to #142

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/30/2013 4:10 PM

Please tell another deciman Chris Dixon in Victoria to contact me: he is a state solar research director that traveled and we met 1981 in Cincinnati Ohio. was visiting Dad and Mom.

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#138
In reply to #136

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/13/2013 7:12 PM

I've almost undoubtedly said this before on CR4: After teaching Physics and related subjects for 32 years, entirely using metric units, I unwittingly started a new career in aerospace. I was aghast to find that aircraft and turbine engines are still done almost entirely in imperial units! I've been in that second career 17 years now, and the only times I see metric units are when we do something for Rolls-Royce!

Everything I see from the other aerospace companies is in inches. I'd love to work in metric units, But I must use what our customers use...

Thus I used the units the OP used, except that you will see that I insisted on using kgf, rather than kg as if it were a force.

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#143
In reply to #138

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/21/2013 1:26 PM

It's because the Imperial system has divine ancestry.

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#139
In reply to #136

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/14/2013 7:01 AM

Just SHOW us , please-

with a smaller model

one could use a base on the table of a strong magnetic piece

your "cylinder"

an elastic "balloon piece" as the atmosphere above,

and then a magnetic material / plate or disc sitting on the balloon-piece of the test rig

since the magnet IS the force that "pressurizes" the balloon section under the magnetic piece, where is the "atmospheric pressure' ever going to be an "ENERGY SOURCE" as any form of source-energy which is different than the magnetism/ gravitational pull in your model, that is the atmosphere's only SOURCE of its pressure within your system?

No differential, no output positive result, I have reason to believe.

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#73
In reply to #57

Re: A Sustainable Renewable Energy Solution

10/07/2013 7:48 AM

No. Was one supposed to?

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