PC Recovery: Cloning and Backup Opinions

SSCpal-

I found it best for me to do either an automatic weekly or daily incremental back up into a 2T external USB3 hard drive. All I have to do is to remember to leave the computer on overnight. SSD's are too expensive to handle the volume I have. With the incremental it only backs up the things that have been added or changed which saves much time. My main hard drives are a 200G and a 1T. Important files and OS are also backed up on the 1T and the 2T external. To get the capacity of the external 2T from SSD's would not be cost effective for my usage. 2T's are less than $100 and 3T's not much more than that for externals.

Just a way of doing it for you to review. Works for me, maybe you.

Good Luck, Old Salt

What backup software(s) do you use for data and the OS?

I try to limit the size of the hard drive. As all data can be stored externally. It just needs to hold the OS and Applications. For back up software I use Acronis. Acronis has the ability to clone or image software. Run backups even a real time back up. With a USB3 external drive you won't know the real time is running. Backing up as you make changes.

A recent post was similar to this and answered very well by AnonymousHero. Check it out.

Being somewhat lazy on computer stuff, I got Carbonite. I won't know how good it is until my system crashes.

SSDs are really for improving the speed of operation of the PC by reducing the read/write times, but you pay for that at the cash register. I have 4 of them in my workstation. One is just my system and applications. The remaining drives are for my data. I segregate my data into several drives, but that has nothing to do with data integrity.

If speed is not an issue, then a conventional HDD is fine and costs considerably less.

I have two forms of backup that work flawlessly.

I have TimeMachine (Apple OS X based backup), which only backs up my data to an external HDD. This does automagic backups every hour. It only saves data that has changed (incremental backup), but I can reconstruct all of my data from any date in the past to my current data.

My second backup is a clone of my system and application files on a second hard disk that I keep in the drawer. I update that drive using a simple application called Carbon Copy Cloner only when there is a significant change in my system/applications drive.

Last month I had my system drive develop a fault and I simply slapped in my clone drive so I could get back to work until I had more time to fix the original problem.

If you are really paranoid companies like IoSafe make an external hard disk drive that is both waterproof and fire rated to 1700° for one hour.

This is different than simply stuffing a HDD in a safe, which their fire rating is for paper, which is not good enough for HDDs and other media.

GA! I go one step further. I use three 2.5" externals: two of them using Time Machine and one using Carbon Copy Cloner. I keep one of the TM externals at work and the other one at home; The CCC external I keep in my computer bag. Fortunately, I've only had to use it once, and that was on a secondary laptop computer I took with me on a trip to Europe.

It has been already said, but maybe not quite clearly enough, you are wasting your money on an SSD.

SSD are used where speed is more important than capacity. Though I expect them to increase dramatically in size over the next 2-3 years and probably stabilize with price, but not quite yet.

Good quality hard drives are the way to go, maybe two of them in mirror system, where some electronics keeps both drives identical all the time, you always have a good one as the likelihood of both failing at the same time is most unlikely.

Do not forget that fire, flood and theft CAN produce a 100% loss as well though!!!

Important data - photos are a prime example - should be dumped to quality DVDs regularly and stored in their box away from any form of light. 2 copies at least!! Preferably in two different locations......think about it!

Remember that DVDs (and CDs) are most easily damaged on the top, where the writing/pictures are, not the bottom as many wrongly believe.

They should NEVER EVER be put down ANYWHERE except in the drive or in the box. Only handle on the edges or the hole. Never expose to light, especially sunlight.

Never take original music CD in a car, only copies....Its too hot, cold and too much strong light!!!

Never clean CDs/DVDs in a circular motion, always from middle to the edge - radially.

Only water moist soft cloth or paper. Some Kitchen towels may be too harsh....I use soft face tissues, which are not perfect, but fairly OK. Blow away any fluff left.

For badly scratched disks, make a backup copy before its too late.

Some bottom scratches can be carefully polished out, there are devices around to help....but copy them immediately (IF?) they become readable....

Erm, not exactly…

Remember that DVDs (and CDs) are most easily damaged on the top, where the writing/pictures are, not the bottom as many wrongly believe.

From the label side, on a recordable CD the top layer is lacquer, then metal. On a recordable DVD the sequence is polycarbonate, glue and metal. In both cases the read/write layer of dye lies under the metal layer. Scratches, even quite deep ones, on the top have no influence on the ability of the laser to reach the written layer from underneath.

Never clean CDs/DVDs in a circular motion, always from middle to the edge - radially.

The lower surface is smooth and the polycarbonate layer is thick. Provided you don't introduce deep scratches it matters not in which direction you clean and polish.

http://www.clir.org/pubs/reports/pub121/sec3.html

You have obviously never used a CD with a scratched top surface, nor have you found out just how thin that metal is......it is not a protection, it is the reflecting surface for the pits/bumps.

I was able to find many good reliable sources that support my comments, far more than I have supplied here by the way......

Here:-

You can read the following and look at a not to scale drawing of a CD:-

The diagram below illustrates the different layers of a CD (though the reflective metal layer is really so thin that it should just be represented by a line).

Look here:-

http://chemistry.about.com/od/howthingsworkfaqs/f/What-Are-Cds-Made-Of.htm

You can read the following:-

Scratches Are Worse on One Side than the Other

Pits are closer to the label side of a CD, so a scratch or other damage on the label side is more likely to result in an error than one occurring on the clear side of the disc. A scratch on the clear side of the disc often can be repaired by polishing the disc or filling the scratch with a material with a similar refractive index. You basically have a ruined disc if the scratch occurs on the label side.

This would appear to contradict your knowledge!!!

Also here contradicts your knowledge on several points, even mentioning that the ink in some pens will damage the metal layer!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CD-R#Physical_characteristics

Here that talk about having the need for an EXTRA layer to protect the metal (Gold) layer. I wonder why?

The metal layer is many times thinner that aluminum foil, see here for a further discussion:-

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/cd1.htm

Here is also some interesting data that describes that even though DVDs are better protected, they can still suffer from the same types of problems:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_rot

Here they mention how putting a CD, label down, is very dangerous!!:-

http://www.chipchapin.com/CDMedia/cdda1.php3

Like this:-

Most of us understand that any CD is read through the clear polycarbonate layer. So, of course it is important to protect that side against fingerprints and scratches. Then, when you put CDs down on your desk, do you turn them so the label side is down toward the desk? I usually do. But that can be very dangerous!

Rather than being the "safe" side, the label side of a CD is perhaps the most vulnerable part of the disc. When we put the label side down on a desk, there is only a very thin coating between gritty desktop and vital reflective metal layer.

I trust that you now agree with the rest of the world that I was right all the time!! But if you can find as many reliable and good sources to say the opposite, I am willing to red them through. I somehow doubt that you will find them!!!

I'm afraid you are straying beyond the plot. My discussion related to recordable CDs, which have a flat metallic layer, with the information burned into the dye below. The scratch would therefore have to penetrate the metal. Even though i accept the metal is a thin foil, that amounts to serious misuse. I'm sure that if you applied the same degree of misuse to the undersurface you would make a deeper mess of the polycarbonate. You may be right about the pens, but that was no part of my discourse either. I presume that if you wrote on the bottom surface you would also have difficulties reading the data. Also you have to explain what your radial polishing is supposed to do.

There is as good as no difference between recordable and music CDs in any physical way, the main difference is just that the lands are all there and some get changed into pits with the burning process and the type ID is different to alert the Burner that it can be burnt.

Only very minor misuse of the reflective metal foil is enough to make all or part of the CD unusable....any type, music, recordable or rewritable......

Many people "think" wrongly that an empty recordable CD is in fact truly empty of data, its not......it actually has a special recorded pattern on it......so basically, it starts off very similar to one with music pressed into it......

There is no physical difference with regard to the metal thickness between both types of CD. I pointed out how thick it was already. That stands for all types.

PLEASE PUT A WEBLINK OR TWO TO SUPPORT YOUR INCORRECT CLAIMS AND DREAMS!

REMEMBER? I ASKED BEFORE. BUT YOU AVOIDED ANSWERING, TRY TO BACK UP YOUR ERRONEOUS CLAIMS.

If you wish, I can post a link that says the opposite.....up to you?

By the way, this could be a very useful blog, it demonstrates the facts that I have presented with weblinks to support them, and your fiction with no weblinks to support them......

I was lucky and I stumbled over this document, the first one that I found to actually state the true thickness of the reflective metal layer.

See page 8 :-

http://www.newcyberian.com/cd-manufacturing.pdf

In this document he states that the thickness of this metal film is in the order of between 50 and 100 nm thick.

That is:-

100 nm = 3.9370078740157E -6 inch

Pretty thin!!!!!!

The lower value is half that or:-

50 nm = 1.9685039370079E -6 inch

NOW DO YOU BELIEVE ME (AND MANY OTHERS) THAT ITS VERY EASILY DAMAGED????

I have no argument on the dangers of scratches on the top side of optical disks, but I'm very disappointed to see your conversions!

Those unrounded conversions cause many people to think that metric values are more complicated than Imperial values. EVERY time values are converted from one measurement unit to another, the final value MUST be rounded to the same or lower precision than the original value, even if the conversion factor is exact:

At best (assuming the zeros are significant digits), 100 nm = 3.94 E-6 inch or 3.94 µin.

More likely the zeros are only placeholders (another way of writing 0.1 µm). In that case, 100 nm = 4 µin.

As above, 50 nm = 2.0 µin, or more likely, 50 nm = 2 µin.

Then you have to stay disappointed!!

If I had rounded them, then some other "picky" idiot (not you of course!) would have complained!!!!

You can only please most of the people, most of the time..........I am sure you know the rest!

At least they were accurate, I only converted them because many US citizens are so naff with metric!!!

Are Time Machine and Carbon Copy only for Apples?

Are Time Machine and Carbon Copy only for Apples?

Yes, but there is software along the same lines for Windows. My experience is with both Paragon and Acronis for both cloning and incremental backup. Now, of course, I have seen the light of Mac OS X and use Time Machine (and Carbon Copy very seldom). My routine data backup goes to a network RAID5 box of 4 hard drives, which will work equally happily from Windows. I am never going to lose data again (fingers crossed).

For what it's worth;

I have been using Easeus ToDo software to create a clone backup drive for a number of years and it has been successful for me. I just create a spare cloned drive regularly which enables me to swap a dead drive with installed OS system, software and data should the current drive expire at any time. How regularly you create the clone is the effort/risk of changes to the current drive.

It certainly beats the time-consuming process of re-installing operating system, software applications, emails, data and preferences when you can least afford it.

It is freeware with more info at http://www.todo-backup.com/products/home/free-backup-software.htm

Thanks Bob, it looks like an excellent choice. Maybe I'm overthinking this. Sounds like a simple periodic cloning of the whole works would save everything. I already have 2 drives.

Just back up the drives at a period which represents your threshold for how much work you can stand to loose.

If you back up weekly the worst that can happen is you lose a weeks worth of work. If you back up daily, then you won't lose more than a day's work, etc., etc., etc.

Since the OS and its applications change slowly I only clone my drive when I add something significant to the OS. I do that manually using a cloning software program.

My data is backed up hourly by an automatic backup software program running in the background. So the most I can lose is one hour of work and it is auto-magic.

I recently installed the free version of HDClone to backup my backup disk. I formatted the disk under Win7 64 bit and used it as a target. It took 10 hours to clone 13 odd gigabytes. At the end, Windows does not recognise the drive and says it needs to be formatted..... I did this twice with the same result. I then opened a support ticket with HDClone. No fix has been offered till now. I cannot say as to whether HDClone is a good bit of software or not, I tend to think not. I will try the Easus software this week.

Andy, I will be very interested in your experience with Easus. Their website looks really good and they have been around for years. I'm still waffling re a SSD; I like the no moving parts and super speed, and my OS and apps would fit on the smallest one, only $100. Clone it weekly to an external HD.

Super speed is what you do get with SSD. The company I worked for in the mid 80's produced some of the first for large IBM Mainframes.......

Get me started on the old days. Our computer center had a disc drive with platters 3ft diameter. One of them crashed and my roomie took it home and made a coffee table with it!

When I worked for Univac, we had platters that were almost 5 foot in diameter, I think 5 of them, mounted vertically.....it simulated/replaced several (5?) magnetic drums that each weighed several tons (99MBytes each).....we were flabbergasted that it was so small!!!!

I was unable to find details on the web...

See here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIVAC_FASTRAND

or here:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UNIVAC_products#Storage_2

or here

http://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/univac/fastrand.html

Here's what I'm contemplating:

The OS and apps run on a SSD, and are cloned to an external HD whenever updated or changed. Data is on a big HD and auto backup periodically to an identical external HD. Right now I'm running Comodo firewall and Malwarebyte.

1) what do you think of this plan?

2) I've shown a cutoff switch on the Ethernet line. I only use the internet a few hours/day; why expose my machine to the bad guys 24x7? Or would putting the PC in Sleep accomplish the same?

That's pretty much what I do to a T.

You wrote, "Or would putting the PC in Sleep accomplish the same?"

Don't worry, the NSA can get into your PC no matter what you do. :-)

I don't doubt it. Even with the Ethernet switch, I can imagine bad guys getting in wirelessly. Next we'll need a Faraday cage around our machine.

Not to get off on a rant, but if a technology exists, it will be used. Recent revelations re the NSA are only a little of what is going on.

"Even with the Ethernet switch, I can imagine bad guys getting in wirelessly."

That can only occur if the WiFi adapter of the computer is turned on. If you are connecting via ethernet, then WiFi should be turned off.

WiFi can, at least under some conditions, continue to work while the computer is otherwise asleep. I was pleasantly surprised a few weeks ago when a large download that had barely started when I closed the screen of the laptop (connected only by my Personal WiFi), was already finished when I opened the screen the next morning.

On the other hand, that does mean that other things that are less desirable could also happen while the computer is asleep...

That makes it wise to turn off WiFi and use a wired ethernet connection whenever practical.

Ah, I was thinking beyond WiFi. Electrical devices emit radiation, which can be detected with appropriate equipment. The British govt has trucks that rove the streets searching for unlicensed TV's this way. It's not too great a leap to imagine the reverse, bad guys beaming malware into my PC.

It used to be the Post Office, who does it now?

"The British govt has trucks that rove the streets searching for unlicensed TV's this way."

Urban myth. I have never seen one, and I have never seen the recording from such a van being used in evidence. A neighbour of ours, who definitively has no TV, is constantly being harassed by the TV Licensing Authority, but they have never brought a van round.

I have seen them years ago, they were clearly labelled at least then.....

My Father was fined for using my portable TV in 1971 and he was on business premises (his business!), on the third floor, at the back of the building.......while saving a hotel room for just one night (we are Scottish on the male side!!).....

They told him in a letter what TV program he had been watching, 100% accurately, it was a heavy fine but I have no recollection of how much now.....he was flabbergasted in both a) he was caught and b) that he needed a license for a portable, even though he had one for his house.....it seems businesses must have their own.....

There was no way that he was seen from the road, and helicopters were not flown over London as often as they are today, then....unless of course you know better......

It was a TV van.

They do or did exist and function perfectly......its not an urban myth!!! Electronically its no big deal to detect the tuner.....it was a pretty "loud" piece of kit years ago. I would suspect that they are much "quieter" today which is most probably why a new fleet of vans are needed......just a thought....

Spies can electronically see/read a computer screen from 100 meters.....so why cannot legitimate agencies tell what TV program you are watching?

Naturally, as there are not that many of them (no idea just how many by the way) for the whole of the UK, they do not let it out where they are working....also, how they work is kept secret. There are so few I expect, which is why many believe in an urban myth...

Seems to me to be quite normal......its the price one pays for having Ad free TV with top programs. Germany is similar in having some ad free TV as well, for which we pay for!

I can watch all of the UK TV with a special Sat setup and do not pay a cent to the UK for that. Totally illegal, but I CANNOT pay as I live in Germany.

They keep "tuning" the UK SAT foot prints to make reception difficult outside of the UK itself, but a big dish sorts that out easily.......we get perfect reception.

"Totally illegal,..."

Are you sure? It would seem that if you don't live in the UK, then you don't need to follow the UK's laws.

I suspect that a good lawyer could get you off any fine levied, but then the good lawyer would probably cost more than the fine...

"Totally illegal,..." - Technically it is because I am seeing films and programs that have ONLY been licensed for viewing in the UK.

For the licensing companies, GB has been moored FAR too close to mainland Europe!!!

Whether or not I could actually get charged with an offense is most unlikely.....

The programs are encrypted, but in my limited experience, ANY SAT receiver bought here decodes them perfectly......a good sales point I suspect!!!

Whether or not I could actually get charged with an offense is most unlikely.....

I would guess that even the BBC draws the line at driving around Europe searching for SAT dishes aimed at 28.2° E, rather than 13.0° E or 19.2° E, where the German TV programs are.....

As mine is a "wide" viewing angle dish that allows up to 50° or so of sky to be continually monitored, so I am able to simultaneously cover the three SATs I mentioned before, with no need to move the dish with a motor....they even may overlook the fact that it can also "see" the UK SAT at 28.2° E, along with all the German SATs.....the LNBs are not very obvious in comparison to most dishes. The LNBs are actually UNDER the dish.....

We have had it for over 10 years, simply no problems..If anyone wants the same, buy the big T90 "Wave" Frontier" dish. Its a "Toroidal" shape rather than the "normal". See here:-

Wave Frontier Wide Angle Satellite Dish

The older TV vans would be of next to no help as the TV tuner is usually ONLY set to one of the video playback channels via SCART/HDMI cable to display SAT signals.

Which if I remember correctly is simply a video input (no "Tuning") and bypasses the (detectable) Tuner completely. How sad for the detector vans.... I expect that the modern ones probably have the same technology as the spies use to "see" a screen from a good distance away.....

Maybe a further reason for the updated equipment in the new vans!!Who knows!!! Also a reason for keeping it secret....

You definitely have a point, especially when the 'bad guys' have a budget like the NSA, CIA, etc.

They have bee copying screen contents from several hundred meters away for many years when they want to......maybe a Faraday cage would stop that as well, but who wants/needs one? Not me.

If they want to look at my porn sites, let them!!!

My reply this afternoon "went away!"

Contemplating the end of support to XP next April, I have been wondering:

--whether using the "standby" (window key > U > S) cuts me off from the Internet. I think it does, but not totally sure.

--Also whether using the "work offline" option in my browser (Firefox) cuts me off from the Internet. I think it would, but I don't use it often.

The since-replaced modem had a standby button on its top which turned off the Internet. The new one doesn't; the serviceman said to unplug it. (Mine is external, not internal.) This is similar to the switch, but works on the modem, not the router.

I also turn the whole computer totally off every night with a power strip. Hopefully this makes me less of a target when support ends.

They're here!

http://www.eweek.com/security/nsa-can-hack-you-even-if-you-arent-connected-to-the-internet.html/?kc=EWKNLEDP01162014D&dni=100120731&rni=23952613

Question then: Do you have to have your computer set up for wireless? Mine is not. I also turn it totally off every night. I don't have anything to hide either.

I did use wireless at first, but now use Ethernet for better speed and reliability. And I pulled the wireless board just to be safe. Now that I'm going to an SSD (fast boot) for primary drive I'll probably power down at night too.

I have many things to hide, but I don't put them on the computer...

A few things to consider.

First, while the NSA is getting all the attention and discredit for their spying and how they can infiltrate everyone's privacy through their computers, the NSA is not the only entity that has these powers.

Don't forget that there are many other countries and organizations that are actively spying and stealing information.

The backdoors (both software and hardware) created by the NSA can also be used by other powers. No wonder why the White House wanted an internet kill switch.

Second, you may have nothing on your computer that you need to hide, but that does nothing to protect you from your machine being used to relay data, both malicious and illegal. Generally, anti-virus software would be needed.

If you ever do online banking, credit card purchases, taxes, or any other activity that transmits private and personal data there will always be a degree of risk (be it PC, phone, or tablet).

Probably the best defense is that there are so many other fish in this tank, so its like those nature films you see where the lion runs down one antelope out of a large herd. Most escape unscathed.