Will This Work, DPDT Switch To Control Power To Unit

Get an electrician to do the work.

"Get an electrician to do the work."

I realize that is an option. Your response does not help me answer my question nor does it advance my knowledge.

you seem to feel this forum somehow owes you something for free, it does not

Will it worK? Maybe.

Is your solution code compliant? No. I doubt there are members anxious to offer advise regarding a noncompliant hookup that may well lead to an unscheduled thermal event.

I understand your desire to save a few bucks, but the manufacturers recommendation, as well as advice offered here already, should not be disregarded.

Too late. I already handed him a loaded gun.

Now the question becomes, will he shoot himself with it?

Either way, we'll never know.

Yeah, I see you posted while I composed.

DIY and the ever ready energy source can be a bad mix.

His next series of questions may be to an insurance advice forum. Let's hope not.

Lyn- "Too late. I already handed him a loaded gun" - If you hand me a loaded gun I would be fine with it. I often have a loaded gun. I realize you are implying I am dangerous because I seek knowledge. Your analogy is just really bad.

Lyn- "Sure, your design will be fine. The worst thing that can happen is your house will burn to the ground." - Logic is not your strong suit either. If the design is fine, as you state, then how do you conclude that the house will burn down? Maybe it was an attempt at humor? But it is not funny. Probably just playing to the crowd, at any rate a worthless post.

I'll share this response to another thread discussing people who ask technical questions of total strangers:

Here ya go.↓

"I think that anybody who comes here looking for advice on electrical wiring is either cheap or a fool, or both.

My biggest problem with most posters is they NEVER explain either their qualifications, nor their real intentions.

cccove is a perfect example. He never explains his ability, skills or qualifications.

He begins by admitting that he's cheap.

He admits he's going to disregard the manufacturer's recommendation of a dedicated circuit, which probably is grounds for his insurance company to deny any claims of damage. To make matters worse, he performs and unauthorized modification to the wiring, another big no, no should a claim ever arise.

Finally he's going to use a switch he's not sure will work, but is willing to try if he gets some encouragement from the "experts" on an anonymous forum.

Then he gets snooty when he doesn't get the affirmation he's looking."

That concludes my statement on your thread.

<Doorman, me too. Think I'll hang out for the second round. I want to see if he's burnt the house down yet.>

"I realize that is an option. Your response does not help me answer my question nor does it advance my knowledge."

It may extend your life.

TonyS - "Get an electrician to do the work." - The Wizard of Oz could not give better advice - Only the most complete idiot would not know this was an option.

TonyS - "It may extend your life." - It also may end it.

"My question is will this work or is there a better solution?"

Well I think that response does help you answer your question, and a qualified electrician can help you advance your knowledge. At least ask one of them instead of here.

If I told you a different way to wire it, why would you take my advise??

Tom Consulting - "If I told you a different way to wire it, why would you take my advise??" Because I do not know anything about you I would not take your "advise". I would research your advice and if it turned out to be good I would use it. Seems simple, but I guess it need explaining to you.

cccove-

At least half (that's over 50%) of the answerers have the technical answer you apparently seek. The best answer for you though is contained in #2: "Get an electrician to do the work."

Your response does not help me answer my question nor does it advance my knowledge. This is somewhat presumptuous and does not lend itself to others giving the information mentioned above. What it does indicate is that your OP and answer do not demonstrate the skills necessary to even consider putting a tool in your hand to start a project such as you are enquiring about. With this said, I personally will never assist anyone to commit suicide whether it be by jumping off a bridge or starting an electrical project that they do not demonstrate the skills to safely do.

Also, this is your second attempt at this forum since having joined today. You will probably be more successful at getting better responses to your postings if you watch and see what the "personality" of this forum is. There are a lot of extremely intelligent members and only a few of much lesser skills. Work with them and they will work with you.

This helpful hint is from someone who others state is quite liberal in giving persons of questionable skills answers that are easy to follow and successfully complete the task. They also feel I should be more restrictive in this and withhold this from those with even the slightest hint that the person is not qualified to do the work. Thus I repeat what has been stated in #2: "Get an electrician to do the work".

Lastly, I didn't have to give you this reply. Just wanted to help keep someone from taking the risk of suicide.

Good Luck, Old Salt

The cheapest way is to get a qualified Electrician to do the installation. Although there will be some expenditure up front, it obviates:

• The risk of a not-to-code installation electrocuting someone.
• The risk of a not-to-code installation causing fire or other property damage, with the knock-on risk of the insurer's Loss Adjuster adjusting the insurance company's loss downwards on the basis of the installation having been not-to-code.
• The risk of the next freeholder of the property negotiating the bid price downwards or introducing delays to the transaction, even both, on the basis of the installation being not-to-code and requiring re-work before taking occupancy.

...AND one gets a test record document that warrants that the new installation is safe. Priceless!

You make a good point because it is clear that CCC may electrocute himself or others since his diagram fails to take into account some very important concepts upon which the electrical code was created in the first place.

Of course, you could have also pointed out that his switch may not be be rated to handle the load either in which case the house could burn down.

And, even if he was successful in getting that abomination to work, he might eventually be unable to sell his house because it would never pass inspection.

Sometimes people need to realize that those "Do It Yourself" kinds of hardware stores invite people to make all kinds of unsafe modifications. After all, they also sell all the wood, nails, and lumber to build it back after one sweeps the ashes away from the foundation. I just think it's a lot more fun describing why it might be a much better idea to let a professional do the work.

NotUrOrdinaryJoe - "You make a good point because it is clear that CCC may electrocute himself" Really, Really I made it clear I may electrocute myself? Well let me make this clear, "I will not electrocute myself". Unbelievable!

NotUrOrdinaryJoe - "Sometimes people need to realize that those "Do It Yourself" kinds of hardware stores invite people to make all kinds of unsafe modifications. After all, they also sell all the wood, nails, and lumber to build it back after one sweeps the ashes away from the foundation. I just think it's a lot more fun describing why it might be a much better idea to let a professional do the work." - Here is some advice, don't fall off that high horse it might hurt.

If you hook them to the same circuit just get used to having to be aware you can only run one at a time. The switch is not really necessary in my opinion.

Otherwise connect them to another circuit that has low average power draw.

At worst if someone forgets all you need to do is go and reset a circuit breaker.

pl. check the wire rating & protective equipments u r going to use & just coordinate the insulation to get it done.

Sure, your design will be fine.

The worst thing that can happen is your house will burn to the ground.

Then, when you rebuild, an electrician can wire it properly.

"...it would lose the day date...", this indicates that there are electronics inside the controller which may be a real problem for you. You're assuming that the controller uses mechanical contacts when in fact it may have solid state devices to do the switching, especially if it's a proportional controller that modulates the current to the floor warmer in response to a temperature sensor.

Also are you sure that this controller will pass the starting current of your motor? Not every switching device will handle that spike. To "advance your knowledge" do some research using the data on the nameplate, you may find that you can't use it in this fashion without destroying it.

As others have said, the life you save may be your own. If anything goes wrong, even if it's totally unrelated to this kluge, your insurance company will not pay a penny to cover the loss.

By my numbers if your jacuzzi draws around 14 amps and your floor heater is 2.5 amps your combined draw is 16.5 amps which although at the upper end of the continuous duty rating for a 20 amp circuit is infact safe just the same.

Personally if you are concerned about insurance and what not wire the floor heater with a normal power cord and have it plugged into one of your bathroom outlets. Granted if it was me I would just wire it permanently into the bathroom or bedroom circuit and not worry about it. 2.5 amps on a 120 volt circuit is trivial at best.

I'd just plug it into a wall outlet.

The OP states, "The outlets in the bathroom are on their own circuit."

These electric radiant floor heaters are built in; subfloor, heat wires, grout, tiled over. Permanent installation, part of the house forever.

A power cord and outlet won't be up to code... don't have access to codebook, but I would bet cash money this won't fly either. Not a terrible idea, but not compliant.

Lots of luck getting a potential house buyer to think either a cord or this isolation switch is a good idea.

Cold floor after having a Jacuzzi? Isn't that the idea behind having the heated floor in the first place?

Code? Code? We don't need no stinking code!

Doorman - "I doubt there are members anxious to offer advise regarding a noncompliant hookup that may well lead to an unscheduled thermal event"- I found the spokesman for the group. You are also implying by this statement that the group would not want to point out the flaws because for some reason they are anxious. As spokesman you are also stating the members would rather remain silent unless the participant states his problem and then correctly answers that problem.

Doorman - "DIY and the ever ready energy source can be a bad mix. His next series of questions may be to an insurance advice forum" - intended as an insult? If not it sure seems like one. Why insult me?

Wowza,

Well, cccove, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

You haven't bothered to tell us where in the world you are at. Doesn't matter, the word 'Hubris' has the same meaning everywhere.

I was going to unsubscribe, but this has the makings of a pretty good train wreck.

In deep darkest Africa and the jungles of the Amazon, tribal leaders on solar powered iPads are sitting around fires drying enemy skulls and chuckling about the "engineers" who think up DIY ideas like this.

if its dark there how does the solar function?

OK, got me! They are up in the canopy eating howler monkey meat and roasting nuts! They still can't believe anyone would do that circuit.

And how much average load are on those circuits? Mine see a 1000 watt hair dryer once a day for about 5 - 10 minutes and basically nothing else except my 15 watt electric shaver 2- 3 times a week for 5 minutes.

My point is adding a 300 watt floor heater that only runs on occasion to a very lightly loaded bathroom circuit isn't going to overload anything nor is it going to go against any common codes.

To me that is likely the most reasonable circuit to tie into for an additional bathroom related add on.

Why not start this post the way it should?

The guess game is on again.

What is your working voltage? Where are you from? 3.4 HP = 736 Watts x 0.75, but the current is half when 220 Volts (240) is used compared to 110 Volts (120). The amps draw of the floor is 2.5 Amps. Can be 300 Watts or 600 Watts.

This can be undersized or over sized, depending on the size of the floor and bath room.

Seen the nature of the elements: built in the floor, on top? different approaches apply. More details please.

do floors in bathrooms ever get wet? oh wait, I'm complicating things I'm sure all the proper safety measures will be taken

When floor heating is applied under the tiles in a bath room, the material is rated accordingly. In Europe many houses have this.

Apart from this, also on top floor heating is available like a rubber carpet and panel.

They require a proper, safe installation. Some are working on low voltage with a safety tranformer. I am just trying to navigate through this post:

1. to locate the place

2. after gathering enough info, to assist, rather than to ridicule the OP.

Best regards. D.

Fredski - "you seem to feel this forum somehow owes you something for free, it does not" - Logic is not your strong suit, is it? What a leap you made. Farthest from the truth, the truth being that I thought a forum can be used as a place to post questions to get answer from those who would like to help.

Fredski - "do floors in bathrooms ever get wet? oh wait, I'm complicating things I'm sure all the proper safety measures will be taken" - Humor? Ignorance? Adding something useful - defiantly not. You figuring out that bathroom floors get wet before I realized that certainly displays how extremely superior you are to me. I bow to your intellect.

You are definitely NOT an expert on "HOW TO MAKE FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE!!"

I would suggest to you that in your self made "position" here, to calm down and quickly, it was your badly phrased original question that started the problems in the first place!!!

The drawing was that of an preschool 5 year old quality and was FAR too small to be properly readable......and generated extra worries as well.....if your cable laying and general design is of such a quality...........????

You demonstrated a probably complete lack of knowledge about mains electricity, crowned by your final question that really opened the flood gates:-

"My question is will this work or is there a better solution?"

The best answer would have been:- "Of course there is" and left it at that.....

I am gone from here because you certainly don't deserve ANY help further from anyone here and if one of your family EVER gets injured from electricity, the fault is YOU!! Not us, you ungrateful person.....

GOODBYE

The diagram does not show a proper way of using a DPDT switch. It is to interrupt both sides of the supply. Furthermore, circuits for use in wet rooms should have sensitive residual current breakers. This job requires a good electrician AND an independent inspector. In my opinion, anything else is dicing with death.

Its really nice to see that most of the posters here (other than the OP), take safety as a first priority, as they should do. My compliments to you all.

What I am surprised to see is that, even though it may not be "Code" where the OP lives, nobody mentioned an ELCB/RCCB or similar to protect the OP and his family from unwanted lethal electrical shocks!!!

No he does not need a switch, using one at a time should be enough and if he forgets, he justs needs to reset the breaker....that way the clock will stay on time!!

To my mind, a whole house needs ELCB safety, but at the very least the bathroom/wet areas should be covered.....

The best advice is to follow code and use a fully qualified electrician though.....

Its what you don't know that bites you in the rear end!!!

If family are also involved, then its NOT a DIY project to learn something new......

With apologies, Andy, "sensitive residual current breakers" was meant to refer to RCCB of 10mA or so rating. ELCB used to include Voltage Operated Earth Leakage Circuit Breakers, which proved to be unsafe if the Earth reference was lost. I don't think VO ELCBs have been made since the 1970s.

There can be a problem in discrimination if there is an upstream RCCB.

True.

My excuse is that living "abroad", I forget the right English names and terminology, thanks for clearing that up. Also I am too lazy to research.....

Anyway, I was still the first to mention such devices!!! That really should not be.....even the old ones still give an increased safety margin when correctly installed!! Nothing is simply bad news.....

Are we allowed to call one another "abroad" now, Andy? I found a note on the voltage operated device at http://tiny.tw/3gFX:

"These devices are no longer used due to its drawbacks like if the fault is between live and a circuit earth, they will disconnect the supply. However, if the fault is between live and some other earth (such as a person or a metal water pipe), they will NOT disconnect, as the voltage on the circuit earth will not change. Even if the fault is between live and a circuit earth, parallel earth paths created via gas or water pipes can result in the ELCB being bypassed. Most of the fault current will flow via the gas or water pipes, since a single earth stake will inevitably have a much higher impedance than hundreds of meters of metal service pipes buried in the ground."

I hope that explains my view!

Did you marry ABROAD?

I hesitate to even reply - mostly what comes to mind is wow.

The majority of the replies seem to think the best course is to hire an electrician. The person's title is not what makes for a code compliant and/or safe install. The knowledge of the person performing the work is much more important. I have done many jobs and they are equal or better than a professional. There is no professional that is more interested in saving my life or property more than me. Most professionals have two motives when doing a job, one is to complete the job and the second is to make money doing it. Sometimes that conflict can leave a job not completed in the best way. I have the intelligence and problem solving skills to become a professional electrician, what I lack is knowledge. Armed with the same knowledge (not difficult to do on this small job, after all it is not rocket science, nor is the knowledge locked away in a secret vault that only a few have the key) I can do this job. So to enlighten a few of you, my title may be "DIY", but once I acquire the knowledge for this job it will be completed in a way that will equal to that of the absolute best professional out there.

Interestingly enough in researching this problem I came upon a post questioning the install of a Jacuzzi by a contracted electrician. The contracted electrician installed his Jacuzzi without a GFCI and also did not use wire nuts to join the wires but just taped them with electrical tape. Some of you have indirectly implied your acceptance of this procedure with your sage advice of "hire a professional". Two houses burned down in my neighborhood both due to work done by profession electricians/builders.

Currently in my Master Bath the professional plumber that installed my shower has the hot and cold backwards. I also was getting mold on the ceiling of my bathroom near the outside wall. The professional that installed the baffles used cardboard and attached them with two staples, 24 inches and only 2 staples. The wind blew out the baffles and then blew the insulation towards the center of the house. Even without research I would know better than to do that.

Now back to my project. Originally I used information from the internet that a ¾ HP motor on 120 volt circuit would draw 14 amps. I was able to get my camera in the small area by the nameplate and from the picture the nameplate indicates it draws 10 amps. So far my research indicates code does not require that a Jacuzzi has to be on its own dedicated circuit (more research required to verify this fact). The Jacuzzi is on a 20 amp AFCI breaker. Code does require (from my research) that a GFCI is required. The professional electrician that installed it did not put in a GFCI on this circuit and it appears this "DIY" may have to correct that. My current solution is to (subject to more research) install the floor heat in the Jacuzzi circuit. The controller for the floor does have a built in GFCI.

Thank you to tcmtech and dvmdsc. Your posts at least gave me something to think about and in the end I am taking part of tcmtech's answer as the solution.

My solution is in no way 100% solidified. I will do more research to confirm that this is the best solution. That research will not include coming back to this forum except for the laughs.

I suspect it was the amateur way you phrased the original question that rang so many people's alarm bells.

If you had mentioned in your question the need to have such safety units installed, that would have stopped, immediately, many of your critics......think about it.

You overlooked that.

They were correct to react so......be nice to them, they were concerned for you and your family.....thats a good thing!!

I don't like Electricians either, simply because they are only one step ahead of an amateur DIYer, but it is one step.

The preferred persons are EEs......but for many "penny pinchers" they are too expensive.....

Safety costs!!

Regular readers here know that my WHOLE house is covered by such units, all three phases.....every single drop of electricity....

I DO NOT KNOW OF ANYONE ANYWHERE THAT HAS THE SAME!!!!!

Obviously there are houses out there the same, but I do not know of them.....

Cccove,

I am unsure whether I should join this thread or keep clear. Since this forum includes posts and comments from MANY countries, I am unsure where you are from, although the overall wording of your posts suggests USA. This question was asked, but not answered. An answer would help us to give advice relevant to your location, as some approaches are legal or generally considered safe in one area but not another. Also code rules are different.

Assuming USA, the code requires all work to be done in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions as well as any restrictions made by the testing laboratory's listing (U/L, CSA, etc.). Unfortunately, the instructions are often lost or misplaced or thrown away, so a request to the manufacturer of the Jacuzzi may be in order. In other word, even though the code may not say anything about a separate circuit, if the manufacturer does, then it IS a code requirement.

Your diagram was difficult to read, but appeared to have you switching the white wire. I don't know if this was a circuit with or without a neutral. In the USA, if the circuit has a neutral it must be the white wire. Switching it is only allowed in a few very restricted conditions.

The many comments about getting an electrician are based on more than the assumed "superior" knowledge of an electrician. Your observations of inadequate construction practices are all too real. However, having a licensed contractor do the work does give you a layer of cover if something goes wrong and the insurance company objects.

--JMM

cccove-

"I have the intelligence and problem solving skills to become a professional electrician, what I lack is knowledge". The knowledge comes first, without it all else is fruitless. Intelligence is next and then problem solving. Without the knowledge all else is wasted and you will never have the skills necessary to be a professional electrician.

Some knowledge or lack thereof, is sometimes dangerous. There are several problems in your deductions and reasoning. Example #1 is that unless a 3/4 hp motor is made to be extremely inefficient it should not draw anywhere near 14 amps; much of the internet is wrong because it was written by people who don't know. Theoretically, 1 hp =746 watts, at 120v this is 6.2 amps not 14 amps. At 75% efficiency, somewhat on the low side of normal, the motor will pull 8.2 amps. Where did all those other watts go? Find out first before proceeding.

Example #2, whether code requires it or not a Jacuzzi at 14 amps requires a dedicated circuit of 20 amps. 14 is a lot of the 20 so common sense says to keep it by itself. Also, if the 20 amp trips you don't want anything else to be affected.

Example #3, This whole mess and the need for so many non-technical answers would have been avoided if, before pursuing more electrical knowledge, you had invested in a book/course by Dale Carnegie titled "HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE".

Example #4, we learn with our ears, not an overly active mouth! Listen to what those who you have asked say, don't try to teach them.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Don't mind them. For the average DIY person a considerable amount of ego driven background noise filtering is needed here.

A lot of the members here are for the most part professional engineers who are more numbers and design guys not in the trench hands on people who have had way too many bad experiences with the dismal work that the 'licenced and qualified' contractors who actually put their designs together are well known to do.

Obviously you are capable and willing to do your research and own legwork to find what possible solutions are most fitting to what you are doing so by my judgement you are more than qualified to do your own hands on work which in my mind already suggests your end results will likely be superior to those that most licenced contractors would perform for you!

As you may be able to guess I am not an 'official on paper' engineer nor am I a 'licenced and qualified' contractor. My personal standards would not let me allow someone else to construct my designs below my expectations let alone ever let me drop to those levels of shoddy workmanship especially if I was doing the actual work myself.

Suck up!

Pay no attention to him. Remember, he burns tires for heat.

Of course, we are looking for a low tonight of about -26^oF, high tomorrow of -5^oF.

I sort of wish I had a big pile of tires at my house.

It's 5° in Hendricks right now.

The electric bill is over $100.00 last month. We have a gas furnace, I don't remember what that bill was. The electric bill is over twice as high as it was last winter. I told the wife at least that means the heat is on. I hope!

Don't make me come over there and leave my wife behind.

Wow I have a lot of posts now and I am on my way to "Guru". Now that couldn't be the reason behind some of the useless and flippant posts. Is there some bragging rights that I am not aware of for the most posts? Looking at the ratio of good answers to posts confirms some of my feelings. Thanks for the entertainment.

To everyone here, you need to watch the program recently transmitted on Channel 4 UK:- "Psychopath Night", then a lot of the comments from a particular person here become understandable....sadly!

Give yourself 90 minutes to watch and learn. See here:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pROu77TvZzA

Its a really interesting program, I recommend that you all download it and watch it at your leisure, at least twice!!! There is too much info for a single viewing.

At the end you can really have a good laugh about this particular blog!!!!

Further contact only via CR4 email please as I am long gone from here.....

I'm already laughing....as I shake my head

Is this plan an alternative to "Sparky", the electric chair in Ohio? This is a Kevorkian system! Your spa tub needs a dedicated circuit by code with a ground fault interruptor safety breaker. Your light circuit paired with a 14 amp resistor circuit would be a dimmer switch. Putting a resistance heater on a 15 amp light curcuit would really be problem. Are you saving up for your funeral?

Dear cccove

Please forgive everyone for being so hard on you. A simple answer and hopefully it will suffice. Please do not hook it up the way you are showing. Thank you, Sir.

Cheers,

Gimps

Gimps, I neither need nor want his forgiveness for being hard on him.

cccove feels sleighted because we haven't coddled him, fluffed his pillow, offered him some cookies and coffee.

He provides an illustration of a planned circuit path that may very well lead to an immense conflagration and asks us what do we think about it. We told him; the consensus is clear what the majority of responders think about it.

Now he's upset, scolding and finger wagging the lot of us. Yeesh, it's like being in the third grade.

Doorman: Right you are sir Right you are. You Know How us old Tradesman are.

We can be a bit Ruff at times.Ω Forgetaboutit Peace Brother

I'm curious why tapping off a mostly unused 15 AMP bathroom (not bedroom) circuit would not be code compliant.

I see more issues sharing an already loaded circuit than using a mostly idle one.

I admit I'm NOT an electrician.

Care to enlighten me us?

I hope the 15A circuit is not a socket outlet - and I hope this is all at 110v; floating would be nice.

I'd say go talk with or call an inspector for their input.

While your theory is somewhat sound, the application may not be safe and may not be legally acceptable.

Local electrical code regulations are usually very strict when dealing with bathrooms, hot tubs, and other appliances that people can come in contact with.

Normaly a correctly rated electrical contactor relay is used when controlling a heating element due to the high inrush current and due to the high arc flash created when the circuit is interrupted under load.

Using a SPDT that is not properly rated nor designed to safely interrupt the heater circuit will result in a failure which could be fatal.

The advice to seek out a competent electrician is sound and is meant to protect people from harm not to antagonize.

Keep in mind that your home owner's insurance can and will be voided if negligence by the home owner is found to be the root cause of a claim.

The bottom line is; Setting aside all the legal risk, the loss of a loved one or the loss of your irreplacable personal belongings due to a fire that could have been avoided simply isn't worth it.

Get help. Find someone knowledgable and ask them to help you design the control then submit it to your local code inspector for approval (in writing). If approved you can then proceed with confidence and without risk.

Be careful. The OP got really snooty when I told him that earlier.

Yet you guys are over in my thread encouraging me to use shape charge explosives to move a few yards of frozen earth away from my house.

You guys?????

Not me.

Anyway, you don't need any encouragement to be dangerous.

Re: "Hiring an electrician doesn't mean it will be code compliant" (paraphrased).

If you hire some flunky handyman from the newspaper or Craigslist based on how cheap he will do it, you might be right. But a LICENSED electrician is REQUIRED by law to perform his work in a code compliant manner, or risk losing his license. THAT is why the suggestion was made.

I have been an electrician before I went back to school. That was twenty some odd years ago now and so much has changed in that field that even though I am an EE now, I would not do that work, I would indeed hire an electrician. Theory and design is my job, knowing the code on how things get installed safely in the field is HIS job, I respect him for that.

Good point.

I have occasion to use an electrician during the course of my work.

I always use the same one. That's because he knows the code and WILL NOT deviate from it for any reason.