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Join Date: Mar 2014
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Deluge Protection of Vessels

04/16/2014 8:13 PM

I have 3 horizontal vessels of 5m width by 37m long located outside. The vessels are used for crude oil separation. They are spaced about 4m apart from each other. They are grouped into 1 fire hazardous area. How do I arrive at the total fire water demand for this hazardous area? How will i determine how many sprinklers are needed for each vessel? Is it to just find the surface area for each vessel and multiply this by the water density required for exposure protection? I need help here please.

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#1

Re: Deluge protection of vessels

04/16/2014 8:29 PM

You need a lot of help!

You are a disaster waiting to happen.

Eye washes, PVC conduit in a flammable dike, pump start-up, and now fire suppression?

You are clueless in North America.

What city are you in? I may have relatives nearby, and I want to warn them of the hazard. You have potentially 925 cubic meters of flammable liquids that could explode at any second.

Train car explosion bleve - YouTube

Where do you work? Who is your employer? Who is your insurer.

You scare the crap out of me.

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#2
In reply to #1

Re: Deluge protection of vessels

04/16/2014 9:09 PM

Thank you for the insult. I do not need your input if you think that you don't have any thing to share. I live a block away from you. I guess you can go hug a transformer. It is hot heads like you that think they know all that are the piece of scrap. Where do the most industrial accidents happen? North America. Please keep your opinion to yourself. I have no need for you. You have no clue of me and what I do.

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#3
In reply to #2

Re: Deluge protection of vessels

04/16/2014 9:21 PM

I judged your level of competence from your past posts.

They all demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge of the subject.

"under what conditions would you install emergency eyewash station" Emergency Eye Wash

"please share your experience and tell me of any standard" Cable Conduit Requirement

"Can you think of some other features I need to look out for. If possible, is it possible to provide me a link to any checklist you have used in the past?" Pump Pre-Start Up Walkthrough

It was not an insult, it IS the truth.

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#6
In reply to #3

Re: Deluge protection of vessels

04/16/2014 11:28 PM

Again, keep it to yourself. If you have no job than to track my postings and you can't contribute, then you have no business commenting on me. I didn't know that this is a forum for experts. The transformer is around the corner. Hug it to alleviate you of your worries about me. I am no disaster in the making. Again I don't need your input. You still don't know me and don't let this degenerate to personal level.

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#4
In reply to #2

Re: Deluge protection of vessels

04/16/2014 10:03 PM

Do tell.

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#5

Re: Deluge Protection of Vessels

04/16/2014 10:19 PM

If there is a local code governing this, you will need to follow it.

It may, or may not, be based on rational first principles.

Rational first principles would suggest determining how many Btu/h (or analogous units) can impinge on a vessel, such as a from a fuel leak that ignites. Boiling water will absorb about 970 Btu/lb; one can then calculate.

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#7

Re: Deluge Protection of Vessels

04/17/2014 12:11 AM

Hazardous area fire suppression systems are outside of my hazardous area experience but if I had to hazard a guess (based on my experience) then I would say that this information is located in an applicable standard.

Have you tried a standard search on the applicable standards website?

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#8

Re: Deluge Protection of Vessels

04/17/2014 8:47 AM

One good source that should help is from the National Fire Protection Association, NFPA. I think you would need the codes from NFPA 30. Go to nfpa.org. And as mentioned, you should be able to get guidance from your local and state officials. They are the ones that you have to answer to in the event that there is an emergency.

Something else to keep in mind, in addition to providing adequate water for protection of the containers, is to provide a route for the water to go after it is used. There have been cases when water over flowed protection levees which caused other problems. Good luck.

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#9

Re: Deluge Protection of Vessels

04/17/2014 9:36 PM

As an Ex-Chief of a volunteer fire company and with extensive experience in facilities fires you have much to lose if it is only casually designed by someone who is extensively trained and has performed many designs of systems similar to yours. Since designing this system could be in error resulting in death, loss of product, loss of facilities. Loss of business, loss of public relations, loss of good will, etc. You must not start designing this system as one of your first on this subject. When in Industry I always hired a "fire prevention for petroleum sites" consultant. He was expensive but I got what I paid for.

NFPA standards 15, 16, 20, 25, 33, 72, 170, 274, 497, 551, 600, and 780 should be read. Although many of them are not directly applicable, you must take their contents into consideration.

Will you be using foam in the system? This certainly is not for a novice to design. What is the water source and capacity?

CR4 is not the place to ask for what you want! How do you know which answers are correct or just someone who wants to joke around? Only you can determine what the best answers are. Small errors now become big expensive errors in the future.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#10
In reply to #9

Re: Deluge Protection of Vessels

04/17/2014 10:54 PM

Old salt, Thank you for the reply. I understand that CR4 may not be the right place to get all the answers. I am also able to decipher which answers are good enough for consideration. I have seen instances where people provide answers that are unrelated to the question at hand. You had said that it should be KISS. It is those little simple things that one doesn't consider that always lead to the big incidents that occur in the industry. I am interested in people's experiences on the subject. It helps me recheck what I have done to ensure that I haven't left out anything. For example on this particular question, from all the answers provided thus far, none is directly related to the scenario or they have and are not ready to share. As you pointed out in the past: the code writers may not have the practical experience on their codes well enough as somebody who has done it much longer than them. You cannot buy experience in the market. Disclaimer: one Guru Lyn should please ignore this message and his opinion is not solicited. I take no responsibility if he/she does otherwise.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Deluge Protection of Vessels

04/18/2014 11:14 AM

If you only want answerers to verify or substantiate your calculations is one thing. To ask them to design a whole/part of a complete system is a different thing. As I read it and many others did, you wrote that you wanted a whole system, a system that must be given more time and efforts than can be provided by CR4. As I understand it, and has been indicated by others, this is a forum for guidance and not exact results of complicated subjects. If all you want is "I am interested in people's experience on the subject" say that, don't lead others with false pretenses. In teaching and in communicating with others it is most important that the other party understand/learns the subject, not how well we teach/say it.

If you don't want jokes or what you conceive as insult answers don't ask questions that are jokes in the realm of engineering. My first thought about your question was "What the Hell does this guy think I am, his unpaid engineering slave? What a stupid idiot! I'm wasting my time even reading this OP!" Why? The question did not state what you really wanted and that was evident in the OP. I gave the answer that you were way over your head if you had to ask the questions you did.

Despite you stating that you do not Lyn's opinion, it is probably the best advice you ever got concerning this posting and others. He and many others just disguise answers in humor to soften the reality of bad OPs.

Lastly, you can buy experience in the market! It's called hiring a consultant.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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#12

Re: Deluge Protection of Vessels

04/18/2014 3:31 PM

In the USA, you would need to use spray nozzles (not standard sprinkler heads) that are listed for deluge systems.

Your density would be on the order of 0.35 gallons per minute per square foot of surface area.

Your water supply (duration) would be determined by an analysis performed by a Fire Protection Engineer, but would never be less than 10 minutes.

The nozzle you select will have a "coverage area." You must provide slight overlap.

The design of special hazards systems such as this takes many years to master. The design of a building sprinkler system is demanding enough, however this project is far more complex and carries far more liability.

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Don in LA (1); jack of all trades (1); lyn (2); old salt (2); Sojourner (3); Tornado (2); WJMFIRE (1)

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