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What's in the Interstices?

04/21/2014 6:56 AM

Just curious.

If matter is made up of particles, molecules, atoms, electrons etc, and assuming they are 'round' shaped so to speak, and assuming particles are densely packed and touching when in 'solid' form, and no matter how small they are, there will still be 'spaces' between touching particles - interstices - that is.

What will be in the interstices ?

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#1

Re: what's in the interstices ?

04/21/2014 7:03 AM

Since it is undetectable, it doesn't really matter (pun intended).

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#2

Re: what's in the interstices ?

04/21/2014 7:07 AM

Waves of energy (mostly electromagnetic and gravitic), on a sea of virtual particles that randomly appear and disappear.

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#3

Re: What's In The Interstices ?

04/21/2014 7:31 AM

Well that depends on which Physics perspective you're using.

In classical Physics there will be mostly nothing between these particles. There doesn't have to be something. This is not like the gaps between ceramic tile or bricks that need grout or cement. However, most molecules will not be spherical in shape. The shapes of molecules is one of the important attributes of a molecule. Often a molecule will become intertwined with another molecule. The family of chemical compounds known as Alums have in one molecule multiple molecules of water trapped inside.

If one considers instead the Quantum Physics of Feynman then virtual particles exist between all of these real particles. These virtual particles are what convey the forces that are applied to the real particles.

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#4

Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 9:14 AM

What'll really bake your noodle is that some of those particles have mass (and charge, depending on the particle), but no size - at least to the resolution of our instruments. Electrons, for instance. Neutrinos are even weirder.

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#5

Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 11:19 AM

Balls of strings.

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 11:23 AM

It's a knotty problem.

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#6

Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 11:20 AM

Luminous aether.

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#8

Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 11:23 AM

Well, matter isn't packed that densely nor is the intervening distanced filled with Great Stuff foam or anything. There is a huge amount of "space" between the particles, with the exception of the nucleus where distances are close enough for the strong nuclear force to overwhelm the electromagnetic force of protons.

However, the intermediate spaces are simply vacuum space, which is filled with vacuum energy.

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#9
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Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 11:29 AM

Is that what powers Dyson's vacuums? Vacuum Energy? (not Freeman's but that other guy who doesn't know the speed of sound? :)

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#10
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Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 11:31 AM

Close. Zero Pointless Energy.

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#12
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Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 12:34 PM

Charges can appear and disappear if the vacuum is not really empty. A Higgs field is one that does not contain particles and can exist in a vacuum. So it consists of a weak charge , distributed throughout the universe, assuming the field is non-zero. Think of the Higgs mechanism as a viscous fluid that permeates the vacuum. Particles that contain the weak charge of a Higgs field; bosons, quarks, leptons can interact with the field. The particles interacting will slow down and give rise to mass. Particles travelling through the vacuum at the speed of light will have no mass. Since the discovery of Higgs boson in 2012, we cannot think of a vacuum as simple any longer. There is an abundance of things happening in that vacuum. Perhaps a vacuum does have a "foam".

I found a decent book on particle physics that did not delve too deep but tried to give an idea of the physics of particles. I am as rank an amateur as anyone else but have read this book. I recommend such reading but it was written in 2011 prior to actually discovering the Higgs boson at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). Lisa gives a good explanation of the Higgs field dumbed down to my level.

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#13
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Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 1:19 PM

Great reference! I am going to buy this book for my Kindle as soon as I finish this post.

The thing is, when we get down to the quantum level of atoms and the sub atomic world, we can't model matter as little solid marbles existing in an otherwise empty space. We can't visualize at this level as an extension of our view of our macroscopic world.

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#15
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Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 2:51 PM

To Kevinm OP 12.

if charges can appear and disappear, it seems the interstices of 'today' could be filled with 'yesterday' and 'tomorrow' - and maybe that's where Schrodinger's cat lives.

...and I've ordered a copy of the book ....thanks for the link.

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#17
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Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 5:55 PM

Another excellent little book is 'The Quantum Universe' by Cox & Forshaw. By the time you finish this book you'll know enough about quantum mechanics to estimate the upper (Chandrsekhar) limit to the mass of white-dwarf stars, based solely on quantum mechanical principles (and a bit of high-school math).

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#26
In reply to #12

Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/28/2014 7:25 PM

To Kevinm re 12.

You could say this is off topic.

The 'book' turned up yesterday. "Knocking on Heavens Door".

I opened it, and it took me back to my childhood when books that appealed to me had big print, wide line spaces and lots and lots of pictures, and fun to read.

This book, by LISA Randall, has page after page after page of closely packed fine text with few pictures (82 to be exact). It's first impression is a bit off-putting to say the least, but I suppose that's the printers fault

I'm up to page 17 and into 'effective theories'. Only 425 pages to go.

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#27
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Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/28/2014 8:24 PM

Great. Intro of the latest editions may have information on Higgs boson and Higgs field. Lots of information is about the LHC but the meat is good in the second half. I found it all intriguing and kept reading a bit every day. I try to read at least 20 pages a day of many books. Some books you can read in a couple of days but 20 pages/day was/is my minimum, I have a wife that will let me read in bed so that helps. Parts will read quick and other parts you may have to take a bit of time. I think you will find the book rewarding. I did because I was blind to particle physics up to that point. OK still blind...to all you physicists out there. But, I am retired and not looking for a career. Your opening question was at least something I could relate. So thanks. Many topics on CR4 just make my eyes glaze over but may be of interest to many others.

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#11

Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 12:20 PM

In you assuming that the particles are round. That these atomic particles have a surface which they don't. The touching is by molecular forces not by physical one. This imaginary surface that makes up the electrons orbit gives way in the sharing of electrons. These interstices that you state may be non existent.

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#14

Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 1:24 PM

Interstices are full of vacuum AND "antiparticles" which have the same mass as the particles but opposite charge. The best known are electrons (-) / Positrons (+). Particle / antiparticle pairs can collide, creating light (photons) or other forms of energy.

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#16

Re: What's In The Interstices?

04/21/2014 5:00 PM

Unfortunately, you can't assume that the particles are round- most matter is composed of molecules (eg. O2, N2, hydrocarbons...) that are covalently or ionically bound with corresponding distortion of shape.

On top of this the molecules themselves are also not solid or even near so- one comparison I've heard is the solar system, with the electrons best represented by asteroid belts (reflecting the wave function) rather than individual planets!

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#18

Re: What's in the Interstices?

04/22/2014 12:56 AM

electrons are made up of electrical charges which take up the whole of the space available. They are not as important as holes, (where there are no electrons) which float up the potential gradient, and set up valence effects which allow molecules to form out of atoms. And allow power to exist if you play with magnetic fields. Of course, since electrons are already nothing BUT magnetic fields held tightly by quantum strings that neatly simulate a negative charge, they can be easily manipulated by external magnetic forces.

Or not.....

Your interpretation may differ....

And likely should.

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#19
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Re: What's in the Interstices?

04/22/2014 7:38 AM

There may be a few holes in that idea. :-)

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#22
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Re: What's in the Interstices?

04/22/2014 8:42 AM

One or two, yes....

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#20

Re: What's in the Interstices?

04/22/2014 8:35 AM

Fractally nothing; however, all memories of what 'was' is both recorded and destroyed in disruptions of orbit.

The interstices are filled with the vastness of space and room for the potential of what 'will'.

When this gap is collapsed so does the star bounce.

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#21
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Re: What's in the Interstices?

04/22/2014 8:42 AM

Poetic. A haiku...

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#23

Re: What's in the Interstices?

04/22/2014 2:18 PM

The "particles" are wave-functions until they are observed, and then they become particles. They do not touch. Protons and neutrons are held "together" by the strong nuclear force, which is mediated by gluons traveling back and forth in the interstices. All the laws of the universe are there too along with virtual particles popping into and out of existence, and fields, such as the Higgs Field.

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#24

Re: What's in the Interstices?

04/22/2014 11:32 PM

Watch out for 'brane drain. If all the 'branes disappear, there will be an airhead universe of too little density to hold itself together.

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#25

Re: What's in the Interstices?

04/28/2014 11:39 AM

Before diving off into physics "ether", like some of the other posters, let me state this is more of a chemical question that a physical one, although the atoms do not care who is watching them.

I will state that by studying the known data for atoms, and the energetics of some metals, it was found that certain alloys would benefit from additions of smaller atoms. This results in a dense structure with more tensile strength, but with less overall mass density, since nearly all the mass is found in the nucleus. This is the basis for a good bit of 20th Century material science, up until the point that other composite materials were found (carbon-fiber composites, for example).

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