My brother is Patent Attorney That could work?

First you require something to patent. There was a post in 2005 describing some registered patents. It seems that patents are not always considered seriously.

Then you are required to use a patent attorney. (to share in your profits. , Actually a good attorney do some valuable work and he is entitled to a share).

Easy, but with persistence.

The worst thing you can do is get a patent attorney. I got a patent and did it all myself. You follow the format of existing patents. Research similar ones and state why your invention is better. The meat of a patent is the wording of the claims. Think night and day how to word claims. A patent search is another total waste of time. It gets done automatically by the patent office when you submit your patent application. The patent office will work with and assist the applicant as long as you don't have a patent attorney. It can seem overwhelming but mellows as you get your motivation. Staying with it and dialoging with your examiner will get the job done.

From your question I assume you are not a lawyer! What on earth would you need a patent for? Only lawyers need patents, to get fatter.

If you are a "small guy" then watch out how you spend your money. Patents are usually not a good investment!

Hi KoBender

If you need a patent you better be sure you have something that can be patented. If you are sure it can be patented think again and again and...............

It is a bit like knowing you have written that one and only top ten song. So what????

If you do not have the $$$$$ support to go all the way forget about it. And I mean it. Let me explain.

Assuming you have a real invention, something on the lines of; you see I have already difficulty in just naming "one". One that was not picked up by a multi national. You have no chance if you don't play with the big boys (In the school yard we called them bullies). If your invention is of some or even international value/merit you will run into the trap of putting more $$ in than you can afford, and they can smell if you are running out of funds making negotiating very hard. But they thrive on people like you. They will convince you that yours is the best since sliced bread and keep milking you your family your friends or anyone that has supported you so far. They will not stop. And one day appears a patent similar to yours. It was not detected in any of the patent searches that were done to make sure yours is the one and only.

What then you ask. Well there will be claim and counter claim and if you have ever dealt with a Patent Attorney, trust me he will say that the other party has no leg to stand on. He will also tell you that your last cheque took 3 days longer, than you had promised, to clear. You will chase the carrot till the cows come home and still think you have done every thing right.

Did you know that of 10000 patents granted only one is issued to an individual private person? If you really think it is worth while to pursue your idea try and go to the big boys first and take a lawyer with you. He will cost as much as a patent Attorney but you have a better chance of getting the idea to the market.

If any future user of your idea is really interested, let them secure the patent rights, and let them defend it. Otherwise the system will blow you out of the water and your family and your friends and people that have supported you all this time.

Do not, and I repeat, do not trust any one when it comes to intellectual property. You are after the big bucks and so are they. You take all the risks and they do NOT.

I will not make any friends in the "legal eagle department" for what I have suggested but then I abhor these blood suckers that much that I have stopped caring about what could hurt or damage them. I am not after revenge but after a level playing field. This field will not be found at least not by the inventors. To level the field will cost you a lot of stress and hard work and in the end you will find that "they" have chosen a different terrain to play their games.

This is something That really gets me hot under the collar so please take my advice and do not attempt do do it on your own. If your idea is mediocre then all could just even out, but if it is good or brilliant I would not like to be in your shoes. They will ruin you and your belief in human race. Please (nth) think not twice, but only do it if you have one or more of the bullies on your side. They will treat you very nicely, until the $$'s flow. Then comes the next step and the next (nth). If you are not very rich or have a brother who is "one of those" forget about it. Do as you wish and read what I suggested at a time when it comes to mind that some where in the past there was this guy who said DON'T DO IT.

Say hello to your still enthusiastic partners and good luck in the mine fields.

Good Luck. Ky

Sorry dbdwoods did not mean to offend your honest brother.

A lot of what you say KY is true but patents are fun, intellectually, challenging to write and research and you get invited to conferences and all sorts of stuff. They expand the mind; its a great hobby and it can - it realy can sometimes make you money but if that is the sole reason for doing then it is, as others have said, best forgotten.

Inventing, researching and patenting is a great way to spend your time and it is not too expensive if you do all the work yourself. It is rewarding in other ways than financial. I have engaged Patent Agents in the UK in the past but in my case not only are they VERY expensive but I don't think that they are really honest about your chances of getting a patent and how hard it is. I don't think PAs can really understand the novel aspects of your idea. I would not engage a PA in the UK but for overseas filing it might be unavoidable in some countries.

An alternative to patents is "secret art". If you can keep it secret you might be better off. For example; the birth forceps were secret to one family of doctors for well over a hundred years. Nobody knew how they managed to achieve a high live birth rate until the secret was out. And what about the guy that invented heat resisting gel that you can spread on your hands and hold them in a gas torch flame. He wont tell anybody how he does it.

An interesting question I would like to put to PAs is how many patents have they filed in their own names?

Hello KoBender,

I don't know which country you are in and it has to start from where you are. For example, in the UK you have to file in the UK first.

Here is a god book that works, Patent it Yourself, part of the Law for all series. Its written by a well known US Patent Attorney, David Pressman. See www.nolo.com. ISBN 1-4133-0025-1. Good luck.

Everything said above is true and the reason it's true is that the international patenting system has been skewed in favor of the big multinationals BY the big multinationals. And for big multinationals, in the most part, read big American multinationals though not exclusively American of course. Here's how it worked; You're a bunch of big multinationals with bags full of cash and you want to monopolise your markets because you make more money if you monopolise your markets. So you lobby govts and WIPO and patent offices around the world until you have the system rigged so that it's impossible for anyone with less than say twenty million US in RISK CAPITAL (risk capital is money that you can easily afford to lose if things don't work out) to apply for and obtain a valuable patent. When you have the system rigged like this from the top down then it's easy to pick up any good ideas coming from the bottom up and scoop them into your portfolio for next to nothing. Only two guys that I know of have ever made it through the system and got some monetary satisfaction out of it but it killed one of them and the other one was the smartest guy I ever met. I can't give you any advice because I haven't done it myself but I know the only thing that counts is cash and lots of it.

I could assist you. BTW, I'm a PE and a patent agent. NOT a patent attorney.

www.patent-innovations.com

The first thing to do is draw a comprehensive picture of your idea. Write a complete description. Place both in an envelope, go to the post office and send it registered to yourself, do not open it. This is protection that you thought of it first.

I have a patent on a great idea, I started with a PA near Washington DC, the idea was that he would be an expert, after several demands for more money I had a PA close to home examine the progress, he told me the guy was beating a dead horse that the patent agent had already told him that she would not accept the path he was following. I gave it to this guy and a year later and more dollars I had my patent.

Then the help started, I have a file of people who want to help me for just a little money like $10,000 with examples of people they have helped. I have one that years later still sends glowing reports and examples of how they can help.

Unless you have deep pockets or an exceptional idea forget it.

Patenting is a very risky business - more risky (financially) than starting your small business and making the product or technology you intend to patent.

Most countries are obliging you to patent first in your country - then internationally in one year term from the first application. USA has a special law saying that you can apply first for a provisional patent which means USPTO is keeping your application for one year without looking at it and if during that year you file a true patent application the advantage is that the first one will be considered as priority date. Provisional patent applications are much cheaper and you do not have to "polish" them too much. Even hand-drawings are accepted but it is advisable to have all the claims you can think because any other claim added later will not have the initial priority but the date of filing. The purpose is to buy more time before committing big financial resources for patenting and to use that time for checking the novelty and sellability of your idea.

These having been said, I'm coming back to my first sentence. The answer to your question depends on what is your intention: just to get a patent and then license it or to protect a new product you make. As it was so well explained here, patents are meant to protect corporations not independent small guys who are easy prays.

The best profit you can make with a new idea is to start your own production and create your market. Start a new small business just for one product and do not disclose more that the product itself is showing to buyers. After a few months you'll have a more complete picture of your invention and file your national patent application (or a provisional if you're an US citizen). From that moment you can legally mark your product with "patent pending". If in one year time your sales are growing, you'll afford to file international patent applications or to sell the whole business which is much more attractive and has already a market.

The main problem is that for getting a patent takes at least two years. In the meantime, any corporation (eventually where you presented it) can cheat you by producing and making profit from it and you have no legal means to sue them. A patent is just a peace of paper saying you are the only one entitled to make and sell it on the territory of its nationality FROM THE DATE WAS GRANTED TO YOU!. So, an US patent will not protect you in Europe or Asia.

You have to look at a patent as being lawyers' bread - not your bread. Your bread is the product! Do a root cause analysis and ask yourself how you'll look like in 2-3 years from now.

Best of luck!

There are three types of patents Utility, Design & Plant. Once you decide which to pursue there are several things to ask yourself. First being is this concept Useful, novel & not obvious; if the answer to these three is yes then you have something you can patent. Second being do I want to file this internationally. The USA uses a priority system for patenting, meaning you can file up to one year after you start selling the product. The World uses the first to file system, meaning you must first file before even showing the product publicly.

You can pursue the patent yourself by using online places like www.legalzoom.com they offer very good rates for the patent; I believe you can file for about $1000.00. If your idea is truly one of a kind this is the best approach. If there are several similar concepts then your best bet is an experienced patent attorney. Most all, if not all, patent attorneys are engineers of one sort or another. So they are fairly conservative in their approach and helpful. They can guide you through the issues and help you file the patent.

Another approach is to file by yourself. You can obtain all the appropriate documents at www.uspto.gov. They have phone help to guide you through things. The hardest part is the patent search. I strongly advise hiring a outside agency, or using www.legalzoom.com who offers a $400.00 patent search. Negotiating the patent search yourself is asking for many office actions later on.

The next important obstacle is the claims. These must be worded very carefully or you will be either too loose or too specific either way opening yourself for issues.

If you need to go to market fast and you don't care to file foreign filings, then you can start your protection of filing date using a provisional. Again see www.uspto.gov for help. This you can file yourself.

Once you file your main filing, the next phase is wait. There is an 18 month window of silence then your application will be publicly (you can request this not to happen) published for review. Once it is published for review you will then start the patent reviews and office actions, if any.

Approx. 6 – 9 months later barring any unforeseen issues of outright denial you will get a notice of allowance. Then you will pay your fees and you will have a patent.

In regards to fees, for a patent attorney you can pay from $5000 up. Depending on the attorney's level of self importance. Other fees can be seen at www.uspto.gov. If you are filing for yourself you get a huge break filing as a small entity. This saves you money.

The above is based upon my experience and is not meant to be a no questions summary of how the law is but again my experiences in my own filings.

Another thing to ponder. Even if you get a "well written" patent that is "moderately difficult" to navigate around, if someone big like a billion dollar company infringes on it, can you afford the legal fees to back yourself up?

You might be able to find some info to help you here.

http://www.uspto.gov/

I would suggest doing all of the legwork yourself then hiring an expert from a large reputable firm to help tweak your claims to reduce your chances of getting beaten. It's worth the cash when you look at all the expenses required to file.

Also, don't share your idea with ANYONE!

I want to know who the lucky SOB who thought of Jibbitz is? So stupid, so simple, so filthy rich! Crocs bought his patent for maybe 4 million (not sure but something like that).

http://www1.jibbitz.com/

Pretend is correct. Don't share it with anyone. If you have to ensure you have a good Non Disclosure agreement and the confidentiality section is strong.

You have a number of replies, some of which contain good information. I have recently filed two new Provisional Patents for medical polymer and drug eluting medical polymer applications. Be aware that most patent attorneys tend to specialize. You would not want, for example, a mechanical engineering patent attorney to prepare a chemical or medical patent. Good luck!

You could just post it on the internet. You won't profit from it, but neither will you get raped by the system.

You might even get some credit for your work,,, maybe.

Then no one can patent it,,, mmmmwwwaaahhhhaaahhaaahhaaa!!!!!

Or you could just keep it to yourself and tell no one,,,,, like most of us do. This is the safest route, after all, it's not like anyone else will ever come up with it. Then one day when you're filthy rich, you will be able to patent it,,,, maybe.

Or, you could just submit to the blood suckers, sigh....., of course then you will be broke..... but hey, at least you'll have your name on a patent. No one can take that from you,,,,, or can they?

Inventors no longer exist. We no longer exist. There are only serial entrepreneurs.

Sorry, Guest - I cannot agree with your attitude here. And your "safest way" is not true - sooner or later someone else will come up with the same concept or even better. Letting your invention to become an obsession or to consider yourself an irreplaceable genius is a very bad direction to take. On another hand, giving your ideas for nothing is affecting many inventors who are honestly trying to make a living from their creative work.

I can understand despair, but please don't spread it!

I agree. Keep the despair away.

Patents actually spur innovation. You have to work and think to get around a patent and that brings new ideas and that brings innovations.

Don't despair, keep lawyers fed and fat!!!

"And your "safest way" is not true - sooner or later someone else will come up with the same concept or even better. Letting your invention to become an obsession or to consider yourself an irreplaceable genius is a very bad direction to take. On another hand, giving your ideas for nothing is affecting many inventors who are honestly trying to make a living from their creative work."

I see you understand my post and we are in agreement. You just chose to take the direct approach.

The problem is established (lack of funding to manufacture, etc.), now what is the solution?

If you patent without the ability to manufacture, large companies will either wait you out or employ someone like you or me to reverse engineer and modify / work around the patent.

Everything you stated during your earlier post was accurate with one exception, patent pending status does offer you legal recourse. Of course, you have to be able to afford that legal recourse.

If large companies were not so greedy, they would work together with inventors, instead of against them. Instead, they thrive on this: "sooner or later someone else will come up with the same concept or even better"

Contact a large company who would benefit from your idea and ask for a legal agreement, or contact a potential manufacturer and ask for their standard non-disclosure. If you do not recognize the legal treachery you will receive, have your attorney explain it to you..... prior to telling them your idea.

".... affecting many inventors who are honestly trying to make a living from their creative work."

If you find someone making a living as an inventor, please let me know, I would like to speak with him. Seriously! I want to know how he/she does it. And how much of a financial investment was involved.

I'm glad you're back, Guest, and that we are on the same page. Why don't you login? It's more fun and give the impression of not talking to a complete stranger...

You did a nice dissection of my text and I'll try to provide answers or comments. By the way, I prefer the direct approach instead of going around.

You're right when saying that large companies are trying to fool you. I don't know what can be done to make them work WITH us not AGAINST us. Sometimes they show no interest in your invention just because the people working there act like working for the Government - meaning irresponsibly and incompetently (no offense to anyone here). The real problem comes when they ARE interested. One possibility is to spy on your concept, feed your ego and make you talk too much. After that they mimic a polite lack of interest and reverse-engineer your concept. Another possibility is to accept signing a license contract and pay you royalties for sales in the country or countries you protected your invention, for a limited time. In the meantime, being a multinational, they outsource production (under different names) to Asia, Mexico, etc. and make much more profit which is invisible to you and impossible to legally touch. China is the best example of melting pot for western patents and IP. Anyway, you have no money to protect your invention EVERYWHERE in the world. Only the language translations can ruin you.

That legal recourse you mentioned is a fairy tale. The best case scenario is to make them stop production and sales in your country (or patent protected territory) and pay for the trial expenses; after that, they go for plan B (outsourcing described above). Even if they sign an NDA, they might cheat you (I know this from patent attorneys!).

I met only one self-employed inventor. The only thing I can tell is that is a matter of chance and blind luck to meeting honest and well-positioned people; or to be supported by a large community; or - in some countries (or any?) - to bribe a Government employee in order to make you the beneficiary of some grant or to sign a license contract. Please guys, don't take this as suggestions on how to be successful. I still stick with the first alternative and the most I could get so far is some tax deductions on the moneys I spent for patenting (about 25%).

I wonder if those few examples of successful independent inventors we could watch on TV are just manipulation. They have no follow-ups.

Another explanation for not having information on such happy cases is that real inventors are not looking for media exposure. They work silently on their portfolio and credibility in the business world.

The best advice I got from the president of a US company (not interested but not a cheater either) where I presented an invention was: do it yourself. He was right because the hardest is to convince others your idea works and to take risks. What is obvious for you is not for others because you're different (not always in a good sense ).

Despite any and all problems, follow your dream. Based upon my observations, disgruntled inventors have really no one to blame but themselves. They either give up and go to work for a company and sell their spirit or just sell what they have to their loss.

You can worry and fuss over the legal issues, the other items brought up, but in the end the true thrill is in the inventing and innovation.

So no matter what you do stay true to your dream and believe in yourself. Patent it yourself, hire an agent or an attorney but never let small minds put a damper on your drive.

"Never take counsel of your fears."

Thank you dkmcphil.

Don't worry, I'm a strong guy and I'll never give up in following my vision. I also highly advise not to take decisions when you're down (everyone has moments like that).

All I'm saying here are facts and observations during my 30 years since I'm in the invention world. And believe me, I've seen and went through a lot! I took any failure or non-accomplishment as a delay of success because first of all I had to feed and take care of my family. I still believe that one day I'll be able to live from my inventions and self-invest in them and everyday I'm doing some small step in that direction. If you do not believe in yourself, who else can? But you cannot be selfish and drag your loved ones into bankruptcy for pursuing your goals. This is my strongest recommendation to anyone taking the route of invention and patenting. As an inventor, you're always alone but without family and friends you're even loner.

Good luck everyone!

Some quick thoughts, which others might have mentioned:

Consider doing your own provisional application, but read about the possible hazards.

Don't deal with invention marketing companies. See thread "Inventors Beware"

Do you own patent search, trying to think of all the possible ways in which your invention might be described. If you find something just like yours, then there is no need to spend even the time writing your own patent app. Of course, the patent office will do their own search, but you can save yourself some work if you don't duplicate something already done.

An issued patent is no guaratnee that it will stand up to a challenge. I've read many patents that seem clearly "obvious" to someone skilled in the art. I think many patent examiners must not be "skilled in the art".

I see you have many advisers. do not listen them.

Listen to me;

1. if you want to patent - do it.

2. buy the book: "Patent it Yourself" by patent attorney David Pressman. Index -ISBN o-87337-291-3

This book is all what you need to submit a petition; just follow exictly as it sad in the book.

3. All guys whom I advised it have got the patents.

HTTP://mysite.verizon.net/restkgfn/airpolcontrol

Poor sad guys!!!!

"I see you have many advisers. do not listen them.

Listen to me;"

Hey apcco, I like dictators... They always know what is best for others...

A humble follower.

Private individuals can represent themselves (but not others) before the US Patent Office. A book I am reading for that purpose is "Patent it Yourself" by Pressman. You can be represented before the patent office by a Patent Attorney or by a Patent Agent. Patent Agents usually charge less than Patent Attorneys and many Patent Agents are degreed Engineers. A main difference Between Patent Agents and Patent Attorneys is an Attorney can practice law (sue people and other court stuff) and an Agent can not practice law. This is not legal advice but if you can't do a patent yourself you're better of with an Agent. If you want to sue someone you can then switch to an Attorney.

The best book in the world about patenting by yourself is

"Patent it yourself" by Nolo Press

There you will find:

Patent Procedures from A to Z

Patent Searches on line, you must do this personally.

Latest Patent Office Rules

And be patient.

Patience cannot be mentioned enough. One of my patents had been on the market for two years before the patent came through. So you take the development testing, VOC and tooling time of 9 months and add 24 you get a long time.

This thread has pretty much run its course, and now that it's winding down, I thought I would add a few remarks regarding our patent system, and to a lesser extent, patent practitioners (agents and attorneys). I have to say in advance that I can't get into a long debate in ongoing follow-up postings. Business is good, so I don't have time. Also, I note that the remarks are made in the context of the U.S., but apply to other countries as well.

Regarding our patent system. A patent is not a one-sided deal that just benefits the inventor or assignee company. There is a major aspect of it that is in the public interest, which many people don't realize. A patent is the grant by the government of a limited monopoly. It is limited in time - in the U.S., to 20 years from the filing date of the patent application. The monopoly is the right to exclude others from making, using, selling, or importing the invention in the U.S. during this 20 year period.

In return for the grant of this limited monopoly, the public gets something in return. What is that? By law (35 U.S.C. 112), in order to be granted the patent, the inventor must provide a clear, concise written description that teaches one of "ordinary skill in the art" how to make and use the invention, including the best mode of doing so. At the end of the 20-year monopoly, therefore, the public is then free to practice the invention, and it has the recipe to do so. This two-way "deal" has made our patent system one of the largest searchable repositories of scientific and technical literature in the world.

Here's an example of that benefit that I use in our patent courses. (www.patenteducation.com). Suppose I have an invention in mind, but I can't figure all of it out. Here it is. You know how those big blade wind turbines can make noise - a whumping sound? And some of the NIMBYs object to them on that basis? Well, suppose my invention is to make a wind turbine with a number of speakers mounted on the tower or nearby that can broadcast sound. The sound will be timed and directed such that it cancels out the blade noise. (Disclaimer - this is a hypothetical example. Have no idea if it would actually work.) Now, I have the background to mount and power the speakers. (Not a big deal.) But I don't know beans about noise cancellation technology. Well, I can easily search the patent literature and find all sorts of useful teachings on the subject, and probably I can find and learn the key missing pieces that enable me to complete my invention. That's another benefit to society - these enabling descriptions of inventions in the patent specifications beget more inventions.

Now about patent practitioners. Sure, there are unscrupulous and incompetent ones out there. And is a $600 an hour patent attorney overpriced? Well, if you're a solo inventor/entrepreneur patenting your new mousetrap, maybe. Like any business deal, price is a factor and you have to balance tradeoffs. But if the invention is a new pharmaceutical that will bring in $50B in revenue over the life of the patent, $600/hr is a bargain to get someone with the right qualifications to write, file, and prosecute the application. You sure don't want to hire me just because I charge less than a third of that rate - because I'm not qualified to practice in that technology.

Finally, a word of caution about do-it-yourself patent applications. It is certainly your right to file an application on your invention "pro se" i.e. on your own. And you may succeed in getting your patent. But a significant share of "I got my patent myself" patents probably wouldn't hold up to a validity challenge in litigation. There are problems in the way that they were written and/or prosecuted that don't come out until the intense scrutiny of a lawsuit.

There are also legions of abandoned patent applications caused by the pro se applicant's procedural mistakes – which result from ignorance of the statutes and rules. You never hear about those. Yeah, there are books out there with patent it yourself recipes. But they're out of date in a few months due to constant statute and rule changes. And it only takes one mistake to tank your case – and give the rights to your invention to the public. But have at it if you want, you DIYers – you'll either succeed, or you'll be doing the taxpaying public a service by giving your invention away. (Want a dead-on example? Go to www.uspto.gov, log into Public PAIR, and look up the "Image File Wrapper" for application 10/305,814.)

Well, enough said. I've enjoyed your comments above.

J Hammond

www.patent-innovations.com