Biodiesel Blend Problems in Duramax

This website seems to offer a complete solution to diesel problems.....

http://www.diesel-fuels.com/

I haven't seen much that convinces me of the efficacy of 'magnetic fuel conditioners'.

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Just to be clear here, your comment is not an endorsement, but rather just an observation that the website is claiming to offer a 'complete solution', right?

That is correct....I don't have a diesel....If anybody has tried any of these products, feel free to add comment....

Sorry SolarEagle (do you work for Algae-X?), but what absolute and utter nonsense!.

Let's just take a small point right from the start: "Diesel fuel filter elements should last a thousand hours or more, and injectors some 15,000 hours." I don't think that I am too far adrift from the average. I do about 20,000 miles per year; approx. 667 hours. This means that my injectors should last more than 22 years, almost 450,000 miles! I had one replaced last year at a mere 92,000 miles. Was I conned? Should I have told the guy to ignore his instruments, because some guy at Algae-X assures me that my injectors should last another 15 years, or 350,000 miles? I have been driving diesels for more than a quarter of a century, both in Europe and North America, and have yet to experience any clogging due to gelling or waste products. There is a key phrase in the OPs post: "My Chevy service manager informed me…..". That says it all! Say no more.

Don-in-LA . If you have problems with BD, you will also have problems with Diesel. If you don't, you won't. Simple as that!

This was such a good post, right up until you wrote;

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"...There is a key phrase in the OPs post: "My Chevy service manager informed me…..". That says it all! Say no more..."

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To borrow a phrase from you, 'what absolute and utter nonsense'.

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Qualification and employment as a service manager at a Chevy dealer does not in any way establish validity, or lack thereof, of any statements made. While there are undoubtedly meaningful comparisons that can be made about the quality of various vehicles made by various companies, attempting to judge the validity of a statement because the person making the claim is employed as a service manager at a location servicing vehicles made by one of those companies is perverse, at best.

Be careful, biodiesel has a poor oxidative stability. When stored in the presence of air (oxygen) it will degrade and form gums. Biodiesel is generally good for six months. Longer than that and you will start to see problems. You may have fresh fuel, but what about you supplier?

Nobody has mentioned the main problem with BD that I personally know of, that in some vehicles, there are seals, O rings and the like that are attacked by BD and destroyed.

Anyone who keeps BD for long periods of time appears to be taking a risk, which I find really interesting. But why would anyone keep it so long??? My wife has to fill up each week at least once, winter & summer.....A truck, would use far more fuel in the same time period.....why store??? Especially knowing that bacteria can be a problem.....

Anyone who believes in magnets is the way to go is about to lose a lot of money for nothing useful...... But it is a "pretty" device!!!

All my cars, since the late 90's have had engines that could all use BD (but the VW car guarantee is not as good, as with only normal Diesel for some strange reason! DUUHHH!).

But three of the four had also a separate Diesel burning heating system to warm up the cooling water, to make the car warm to drive in winter, remove ice & snow almost immediately and reduce engine wear. None of these systems (from Webasto) were allowed to use BD, so that was it, normal diesel only.....

By the way, in Germany you are not allowed to run your engine to simply clear ice and snow....the Police, if they catch you, will impose a big fine. Hand clearing of all glass and vehicle roofs is required, or one of the special heaters I mentioned. Some people use special sprays to keep the glass clean, also legal....

Is that German policing extended onto private property as well or is it just curbside idling that brings in a SWAT team?

Is that policing also extended to running the aircon curbside in summertime as well?

I will answer your questions one after the other:-

Is that German policing extended onto private property as well or is it just curbside idling that brings in a SWAT team?

No SWAT, but the "Ordnungsamt".....or the Police. It is also forbidden on private property.....

Is that policing also extended to running the aircon curbside in summertime as well?

YUP!! You are not allowed to run your motor just for "comfort" reasons.....many do, but they run a risk of being caught and fined....

I suppose running the car to power an inverter for backup domestic power when the utility supply goes south or if there's no power available on a site is also verboten...

As I don't even remember the last time we had a power failure, 25 years or so, if not more, the question is moot!! Even then, it was a lightning strike or similar and lasted maybe 10 seconds....

Nobody I know has the possibility with a car to power a house (someone somewhere maybe??!!), though I do have a small inverter for camping, seldom used.

But some of us have a generator for camping and the like, small but useful. Meine is 1Kw, though mine has never been used for that purpose (with mains failure). Usually its my son-in-law watching football on Sat TV where no mains is available.....in the middle of nowhere....

It appears that in the US (for example) you cannot rely on mains power.....that is a problem of design.....to my mind.....also, we here, do not even know what a "brown-out" is! (I do, as I have visited 3rd world countries many times!!)

In Europe, each country "supports" the neighboring countries with power, which, due to local differences in power requirements at different times of the day/week, helps to stabilize the whole European system.

There are cables running under the sea even between the UK and mainland Europe for example....

I am sure that the US could do the same, if the power companies wanted to....you have enough time zones, more than we do even!!

I do not believe that such problems are due to the differences in electrical power and its supply by the way......its probably more to do with inter company politics, lack of planning and the law!!!

Anyone who believes in magnets is the way to go is about to lose a lot of money for nothing useful.....
Couldn't agree more Andy..............I have always found magnetic algae problematical, and have you seen the "fuel polishing" system that this Algae X company markets........maybe I am missing something..........but, "polished fuel"
Another interesting point (speaking from a marine engineering viewpoint) is the use of biocides, some of them can cause a bigger problem than the algae itself. The point being is to keep fuel tanks scrupulously clean..........and only add clean fuel.........a quick check being to pour a little of the fuel into a clear, clean container, wait about 30 seconds and check it for clarity..........any cloudiness indicates that the fuel is contaminated..........nothing specific, its just contaminated.
One of the biggest problems with distillate stems back to the mid seventies. "The oil companies were doing it hard for a dollar!!!".....so to get more product from the crude oil they added to refineries catalytic crackers, hydro-refiners, etc., and also a catalyst to the crude oil...........they managed to recover 99%+ of the catalyst and the small amount of catalyst left, known as catalytic fines interacting with sulphate reducing bacteria and small amounts of water caused the problem. (This is in non professional terms.......mine)
Instead of a marine distillate having a shelf live of three years, it was reduced to six months.........care of catalytic fines.

Not sure how your average consumer could take care of the catalytic fine content that you described.

Cloudy diesel is never a good look. No need to think too much about it, just needs to be replaced with clear clean fuel.

There is no biodiesel here (yet) although sometimes one hears of illicit incidents where coconut oil is used to dilute genuine diesel. Performance loss is all that's reported nothing else. Maybe coconut oil is OK?

Interesting to read all these experiences with biodiesel and learn a bit as I'm sure it will come here soon enough.

Diesel can stand stored for months in stationary applications. In transport applications you'd consume it before it gave any problems. Right?

I drive and maintain diesel powered vehicles and install, commission and maintain diesel fueled gensets and burners so all these anecdotes are always of interest.

Thanks.

In transport applications you'd consume it before it gave any problems. Right?
Unfortunately that is not quite correct.......in trucks, etc., very true, but in marine applications this is not necessarily the case, e.g. many fishing vessels operate on a seasonal basis, this means that fuel may sit in their tanks for several months. even if they top their tanks up at the end of a season, this new fuel just mixes with the older fuel.............the result a tank full of contaminated fuel..........and I am not talking hundreds of litres I am talking thousands or tens of thousands of litres of fuel.
The fishermen obvious don't dump the fuel, because of its cost, they use it, resulting in minor cases.......... fuel filter changes more often............or damage to fuel injection equipment............ or worse, major engine wear resulting in a complete rebuild.......I have seen this happen on a number of occasions, but fortonately it is not the norm.

Fishermen hereabouts either own a fuel polisher and run it periodically duting the off-season...or they hire a fuel polishing service to clean the old diesel fuel before the new season begins.

Either way is cheaper than disposal of (usually) hundreds of gallons of fuel, or of trying to run corrupt fuel through the engine - with the consequent damage to the fuel delivery system.

This kind of preventative maintenance would probably be a good idea for maintaining the fuel supply of a standby generator too.

Regarding coconut oil- the higher viscosity can cause injector coking problems. Vehicles altered to run on vegetable oils normally have a fuel heater that alleviates this problem.

I assume that where you are the higher gel point (coconut oil is highly saturated) isn't a problem.

At normal ambient temperatures here it's difficult to distinguish between the two visually or by touch, smell is the only clue.

Interesting to hear about the laws over there!

The problem with seals and hoses is largely with older vehicles; newer ones tend to have different materials that are compatible. But I forgot to mention something previously- especially in high concentrations BD can also be a good cleaner for scum and varnish buildup from regular diesel, to the point that a sudden switch to straight BD has been known to rapidly clog fuel filters!

Excellent point. Biodiesel is a very efficient solvent. It will even remove red wine stains from a white blouse.

It will even remove red wine stains from a white blouse.
..............and POW!, just like majic, no stain.............only a hole!!!

...and a lingering aroma. Not necessarily unpleasant. I'm kind of fond of it, myself, but it isn't for everyone.

Don: I agree with other posters who state the problem may be old fuel you purchased that sat in a location a long time with moisture present. Bacteria exist that like to "eat" diesel, and are actually used to clean up diesel spills, and we had a problem with some bacteria like this in a large No.2 fuel oil tank (this was boiler fuel, so you could imagine the long line of trucks entering and leaving our generation plant while we ran on this liquid fuel instead of the "normal" natural gas. At some point the emergency fuel system was abandoned, and moisture entered the tank. If you see any diesel tank developing pressure - that will most likely be due to bacterial degradation of the fuel to smaller, more volatile HC's. Biodiesel is not necessary for the fouling problems to occur.

However, biodiesel improperly cleaned after synthesis will be a corrosive to any carbon steel parts, brass, etc. due to its higher than normal pH. Glycerol by-product will also promote bacterial growth, as this is a fundamental molecule used by almost all life in storing and utilizing bio-energy.

My larger question (and answer) is thus: Why use BD at all? Engineers have already discovered how to more efficiently utilize algae ( or any other organic material) to form small HC molecules that can be refined by reforming into diesel, gasoline, jet fuel, etc. I am all for algal fuel production, since this beats row crops hands down. Before that, all over the road hauling should be done with natural gas fuel. T. Boone Pickens has the right idea for the time we are in right now.

The only reason that makes sense is aas a way to balance an excessive soy oil inventory caused by a short term over supply. You would think that the laws of supply and demand would convince farmers to do a better of balancing production but greed eventually sets in.

"...You would think that the laws of supply and demand would convince farmers to do a better of balancing production but greed eventually sets in...."

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'Supply and demand' and 'greed' are not mutually exclusive; far from it. Well behaved 'supply and demand' requires multiple agents acting in way that is well described as 'greedy'. Distortions occur when those in control go down the road of add extraneous non-first-order-greed incentives and penalties, resurfacing as they go, with their good intentions.

James...Thanks for the comments. Yes, algae is by far the best, pound for pound, material that can be used for producing diesel. Since the diesel is derived from a plant, it is also considered biodiesel. I've done some research over the years on home made biodiesel and I plan to make some for use in my '67 Ford tractor and possibly for my Chevy Duramax, although I want to find out more about seal compatabilities, etc. before trashing my engines. If I do make biodiesel I will probably utilize used cooking oil from local restaurants. Reportedly, the biodiesel does clean sludge (as stated in a previous reply) in the fuel tank and lines and will clog fuel filters so it is recommended to keep a spare filter on hand, as I always do anyway.

There are web sites around explaining how to filter used vegetable oil and also how to process it in a vehicle, warming it is often the case, for example.

I do believe (from what little I have read) that not all vegetable oils are aggressive to seals. One of the worst (if I remember correctly) is Rape seed oil. Which is a part of the European Bio Diesel.....

Now which other veggie oil products are also aggressive I cannot say.....but I would expect those websites I mentioned to be better informed.

Some here simply go and buy the cheapest cooking oil they can find, which is about half the price of Diesel.....but I would guess that you really need to know what you are doing......get yourself fully informed before starting.

Keep us updated please.

There are web sites around explaining how to filter used vegetable oil and also how to process it in a vehicle, warming it is often the case, for example.

I do believe (from what little I have read) that not all vegetable oils are aggressive to seals. One of the worst (if I remember correctly) is Rape seed oil. Which is a part of the European Bio Diesel.....

Now which other veggie oil products are also aggressive I cannot say.....but I would expect those websites I mentioned to be better informed.

Some here simply go and buy the cheapest cooking oil they can find, which is about half the price of Diesel.....but I would guess that you really need to know what you are doing......get yourself fully informed before starting.

Keep us updated please.

My first exposure to diesel engines came years ago, long before biodiesel was thought of but not as engines for trucks but for diesel powered generators. These had the oil setting in tanks for long periods and then expected to perform perfectly when needed during power outages. We also rented a lot of large portable diesel generators to use when we did service on power systems. One of our venders was always more reliable than the rest and also cost less then their competitors. I asked the owner one day why his were better and cheaper. He explained that any diesel absorbs moisture and will eventually build up bacteria. He showed me their procedure. They had on each generator a small 120 volt fuel pump and filter that was able to circulate fuel from the tank to the inlet of the injector pump and return it to the tank. They had a similiar setup on the underground diesel tanks. He said that filtered out the bacteria. I started looking at the standby generators that we were associated with. Some of them had similiar systems and had no problems. Those without had problems with the fuel system. Later I got vehicles with diesel engines. On my truck, I did not worry because I used a lot of fuel and knew it would have a constant supply of new fuel. On my motorhome, I was somewhat worried and installed an electric pump and 3 way valve so I could filter the tank and lines if it set a long time. It has come in handy several times during winter months. I have never had an engine problem with the engine, but have replaced filters a little more often. When I got a bad tank from a service station one time, it really helped. Others who had filled up at the same place, at an annual meeting, had quite a bit of trouble but I just turned on the pump and let it work a few hours and replaced the filter. Since then I try never to get fuel in out of the way places.

The behavior of the owner of your preferred vendor seems recklessly cavalier about disclosing reason for their competitive advantage. It seems like an odd thing for a business owner to confess, especially when asked in that way...

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"Hey, what allows you to be better and less expensive than the competitors?"

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"I'm glad you asked. Let me divulge the secret of the competitive advantage that helps keep this business a profitable ongoing concern."

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I also find the last few sentences of your comment difficult to understand...

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" When I got a bad tank from a service station one time, it really helped. Others who had filled up at the same place, at an annual meeting, had quite a bit of trouble but I just turned on the pump and let it work a few hours and replaced the filter. Since then I try never to get fuel in out of the way places."

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I presume the annual meeting was for an RV owners club of some sort and that the service station was in an out of the way place.... It seems highly improbable that enough people to qualify as 'others' would have filled up their RV's at the same out of the way service station. What am I not getting here.

.....Friendly?

Thanks, Andy. Rereading my comment, I can see how it could be perceived as very unfriendly. That wasn't my intent, and I should have proof read, because I am aware that when something doesn't add up, what I initially write can sound less than friendly.

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Fortunately it appears my lack of tact was overlooked or forgiven, and an explanation provided that makes it all make sense.

No problem....

Quote:The behavior of the owner of your preferred vendor seems recklessly cavalier about disclosing reason for their competitive advantage. It seems like an odd thing for a business owner to confess, especially when asked in that way...

The supplier of these generators and I had a long and profitable relationship. I certainly was not going to use his competitors or give them any advantage. This was in the southeast part of the United States and that is how business is done there. People are incredibly honest in the Southest and Southwest portions of this country. I can't speak for the rest, because I have not done business there. He knew I would not betray his trust.

Quote: I presume the annual meeting was for an RV owners club of some sort

Yes

Quote: It seems highly improbable that enough people to qualify as 'others' would have filled up their RV's at the same out of the way service station. What am I not getting here.

The area we were in, had few choices for fuel and nearly all the owners in the group filled at the same station. As I was recirculating my fuel, I pulled nearly a full cup of merky looking water from the drain at the bottom of the filter. The filter I use will not let water pass through, it totally stops fluid if it has too much water. It is similiar to the Velcon filters used for treating Transformer 10C oil. The amount of fuel I had purchased was nearly a full tank, about 20 US gallons.

The other owners made numerous filter changes and added lots of junk to the tank but still had problems.

In that context, the owner divulging that information makes a lot more sense.

I was also definitely missing the idea that the annual meeting was the reason for using the out of the way gas station...the picture in my head didn't have those two things related.

Thanks for the clarification, it all makes sense to me now.