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Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 5:19 PM

We just bought a new generator at work.

DuroMax XP10000E 10000 Watt Portable Generator

I was going to buy a Honda but was overruled by the big bo$$. OK, it's $1,800.00 USD cheaper than the Honda.

The operator's manual specifies API SJ 10-W-30 motor oil.
Motor oil is now up to SN service and SJ is not on the shelves at our local hardware store.

Nowhere in API sites can I find anything that says the SN is backward compatible to SJ.

I'm probably going to go with SN and be done with it, but I'd like a second etc. etc opinion.

I'm thinking about warranty issues here.

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#1

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 5:40 PM

From the Mobil1 site:

API ratings are backward compatible to previous generation ratings. This means that an API SM quality oil, which is the latest API rating, is recommended where API SL, SJ, SH, SG were originally required.

So, looks good to go!

<Still can't place a hyperlink>

https://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/Using_SM-Rated_Oil_Instead_of_SG.aspx

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#3
In reply to #1

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 5:56 PM

Yes, I saw that, and like I said I probably will go ahead, but Mobil sells oil so that old cynic in me is looking for an unbiased opinion.

Probably won't matter since I don't see us over taxing it, but when it's 115°F and the pavement is 140°F, I want all the help I can get.

Thanks!

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#2

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 5:51 PM

I would say the SN exceeds minimum requirements....I use synthetic blends in all my vehicles...

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#6
In reply to #2

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 6:26 PM

Here's my problem.

All previous service grades include the statement: They may be used where API Service Category SJ and SL earlier categories are recommended.

Category SN includes no such statement..

And, since this is a work generator, I'll only use what's specified in the operator's manual. I spent 25 years working on military products and spacecraft, I RTFM and go by it.

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#8
In reply to #6

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 8:13 PM

LOL I'm like that too...won't give 'em any ammo....It's a case of "even if you're right, you still broke the rules"....and refuse to set myself up for "can't you even read and follow instructions?"

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#4

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 6:05 PM

Yes, oil just keeps getting better and better. Why is a Chinese generator specifying oil to the American standard to begin with?

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 6:16 PM

And why does it have a 13 year old engine in it?

<Puzzled Smiley>

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#7
In reply to #5

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 6:27 PM

It, "is a Chinese generator".

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#9

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 8:50 PM

I know the feeling, remember doing an installation. The salesman overlooked the fine print (hardware not included). Would it be too much to ask to get the fellow who made the recommendation to make the call? After all, if he knows so much about generators, he will certainly have access to the oil.

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#10

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 10:02 PM

From the operator's manual, a technical discourse:

Overload them are never a problem with his circuit breaker of 33 amplifiers doubles. A meter of volt allows you to check the range of the production of your generator to any instant, and the witness of load of battery allow you knowledge when the battery of starter of the generator loads DuroMax XP10000E.

With the electric beginning, it is as simple to obtain this generator that goes as lights your car. And if the battery completely is not loaded, you can use the only force backs up the rope to begin the generator.

Now, I'm not sayin' this is a bad buy, yet..........................................................just entertaining reading.

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#11
In reply to #10

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 10:11 PM

This generator love you long time....

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#12
In reply to #11

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 10:31 PM

This put my mind at rest. It must be a quality product:

You will get up at 10 o'clock time of race (to 50 percent) of one 8.3-gallon fuel reservoir. The characteristic others include a silent one of great-silence, a regulating one of automatic advanced tension (more broadcasting) the system and a system of protection of low oil that close automatically the generator to protect it from any damages has lacked it the oil. It is supported by one a year a limited guarantee.

How can I lose?

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#15
In reply to #12

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/10/2014 10:59 AM

Holy Shite!

That is the most convoluted double-translated double-speak I have ever seen!

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#18
In reply to #11

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 8:21 AM

This generator love you long time

NOW that is funny!

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#13
In reply to #10

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 10:37 PM

You should have posted earlier. The problem I have with some of these cheapie generators is that there's usually a reason. Leaving the mechanicals aside, you might want to verify how well it can supply 10kW. Basically it's like the old days with audio amps, "peak power" ratings with distortion that you wouldn't find on lower power "RMS" rated name brands.

I have seen some of these things marked 10kW look more like a 7.5kW unit, and putting them on a load bank with an oscilloscope proves it. Once you get beyond about 70-80% of the rating the sinewave starts distorting due to the effects of saturation on the stator. If you're running lights, who cares, but if the load is certain types of electronic equipment requiring a relatively clean sine wave, then look out.

The manufacturer saves money on copper and steel by providing less of it, and as you get too high on the saturation curve of the steel you can get some nasty distortions as a result.

Getting back to the oil question; check out the Petroleum Quality Institute web site, they have lots of info on the backwards compatibility of the API letter rating system that verifies what others have said.

Here's what they say about SN, "...Introduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to provide improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons, more stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource Conserving matches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with improved fuel economy, turbocharger protection, emission control system compatibility, and protection of engines operating on ethanol-containing fuels up to E85..."

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#14
In reply to #13

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/09/2014 10:50 PM

The rating is 10kW peak, 8 kW continuous. That's fine.

The API web site does not include the phrase, "for 2011 and older vehicles".

I agree that all oils should be backward compatible, but......................................

I've already decided to go with SN.

Condemn the aquatic projectile, proceed at all risk most rapidly forward.

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#16
In reply to #14

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/10/2014 5:37 PM

- And tighten all screwage hardly.

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#19
In reply to #10

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 2:44 PM

At least they are trying to use words. Very poorly using them, but trying. Some of the stuff out of Germany these days have gone entirely to drawn pictures, and they really test that old saying, "A picture is worth...." On some of those pictures you really wonder what they are showing you.

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#20
In reply to #19

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 2:56 PM

I guess. As the.tinker suggested, it would be interesting to know where the original design was stolen originated.

Maybe it was translated from Polish to Chinese, then to English.

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#38
In reply to #20

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/17/2014 7:49 AM

Well Harbor Freight's engines appear to be direct knockoffs of Honda engines. I am told Honda parts won't fit but they sure look like they came out of the same molds as Honda's did to me.. as for the alternator heads, who knows...

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#29
In reply to #10

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/13/2014 11:50 PM

And your ploblem is?

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#30
In reply to #29

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/13/2014 11:54 PM

Nothing yet. As long as I don't need the operator's manual.

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#31
In reply to #30

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/14/2014 12:16 AM

http://www.engrish.com/ you might get a translater here.

Jim

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#17

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 4:06 AM

I am personally convinced that good synthetic oil is the best for any engine (and so are VW, Mercedes, Opel, Vauxhall, BMW and all the Japanese makes HERE IN EUROPE!), bar none.....in the USA some makes are a little behind the times I understand....

Even an older engine in good condition can be safely converted and run on synthetic, if you know what you are doing.

There are lots of old wives tales about synthetic oil problems. If you choose to believe them, thats your problem....I have used synthetic since the middle 80's on many different engines/vehicles with no problems whatsoever....

In fact, the only valid results were longer living engines and really low oil consumption. Tested up to 400,000 Kms on several engines.....no engine repairs needed except for one Diesel engine that my wife ran on petrol! But it jut needed a new head (and a lot of work to change it!). I do believe that the oil saved it!!

The only negative is that new engines take longer to run in......up to around twice as long in my personal estimation only. Two cars that were supplied new with mineral oil, which was replaced at 10,000 Kms with synthetic, appeared to be run in much faster, one diesel on petrol, but just my impression only.....no valid testing was done....

The extra cost is well offset by the reduced oil usage and the extended mileage for synthetic oil changes. Plus here at least we have some great small German oil companies that charge far less for their products than some of the big names....

Here is a company that I have used for some years who offer 25 Liters, in 5 Liter canisters for €109 including delivery. (6.6 US Gallons at a price of less than $150 = about $23 a gallon!)

25-Liter-SAE-5W-30-Synthetic-Motorenol-MADE-in-Germany

Its therefore also better for the environment as well......not just for the engines and your pocket book!

Anyone with a different opinion (is allowed to have it, good or bad of course!), but who has not used such oils for at least 15 years or so, in many different engines simply has no idea.....synthetic is not for the short term test.....

....as many seem to believe!

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#21

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 4:03 PM

Here is a link that may enlighten you on the various types and grades of oil.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/

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#22
In reply to #21

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 4:16 PM

Sorry, no help at all. Interesting, but not the subject of this thread. Note the title: Engine Oil Service Grade

I fully understand viscosity and how temperature affects it. I used to measure viscosities almost daily with Brookfield viscometer in a former job.

Service grades are not really affected by viscosity and are a completely different animal.

Different "Service Ratings" can be found in all viscosities of oil.

But, thanks, none the less.

API Engine Oil Service Category Chart
"S"StatusService Gasoline Engines
SNIntroduced October 2010Category SM were ntroduced in October 2010 for 2011 and older vehicles, designed to provide improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons, more stringent sludge control, and seal compatibility. API SN with Resource Conserving matches ILSAC GF-5 by combining API SN performance with improved fuel economy, turbocharger protection, emission control system compatibility, and protection of engines operating on ethanol-containing fuels up to E85
SMIntroduced on 30 November 2004Category SM oils are designed to provide improved oxidation resistance, improved deposit protection, better wear protection, and better low-temperature performance over the life of the oil. Some SM oils may also meet the latest ILSAC specification and/or qualify as Energy Conserving. They may be used where API Service Category SJ and SL earlier categories are recommended.
SL2001 Gasoline Engine ServiceCategory SL was adopted to describe engine oils for use in 2001. It is for use in service typical of gasoline engines in present and earlier passenger cars, sports utility vehicles, vans and light trucks operating under vehicle manufacturers recommended maintenance procedures. Oils meeting API SL requirements have been tested according to the American Chemistry Council (ACC) Product Approval Code of Practice and may utilize the API Base Oil Interchange and Viscosity Grade Engine Testing Guidelines. They may be used where API Service Category SJ and earlier categories are recommended..
SJ1997 Gasoline Engine ServiceCategory SJ was adopted in 1996 to describe engine oil first mandated in 1997. It is for use in service typical of gasoline engines in present and earlier passenger cars, vans, and light trucks operating under manufacturers recommended maintenance procedures. Oils meeting API SH requirements have been tested according to the American Chemistry Council (ACC) Product Approval Code of Practice and may utilize the API Base Oil Interchange and Viscosity Grade Engine Testing Guidelines. They may be used where API Service Category SH and earlier categories are recommended.
SHObsoleteFor model year 1996 and older engines.
SGObsoleteFor model year 1993 and older engines.
SFObsoleteFor model year 1988 and older engines.
SEObsoleteFor model year 1979 and older engines.
SDObsoleteFor model year 1971 and older engines.
SCObsoleteFor model year 1967 and older engines.
SBObsoleteFor older engines. Use only when specifically recommended by the manufacturer.
SAObsoleteFor older engines; no performance
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#32
In reply to #22

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/14/2014 8:44 AM

Here is an excerpt from the link I provided.I think it covers your question very well.

It did not copy with chart for some reason, but the link I originally provided lays it out ( in chapter 7,for your convenience).

The chart has been superseded by newer ratings,but SJ is covered here,as an example.

The link answered a lot of questions about lubricants in general and,IMHO, would be good reference for anyone.

The American Petroleum Institute, API, and Society of Automotive Engineers, SAE, have rated engine oil performance over the years. We have seen the ratings go from SA, SB, SC, SD, SE, SF, SG, SH, SJ, SL with SM to follow. SI and SK were eliminated as they are used by other businesses. There are over 3 dozen tests that oil now must pass in order to make the next higher rating. The tests are defined by the American Society for Testing and Materials, ASTM. Some tests have progressed to a zero tolerance level. For example there can be no sticking of any piston rings any more. I will compare the SL rated oil to the previous SJ oil in a few categories. For simplicity I will skip the units of measurement:

Category SJ SL Maximum cam plus lifter wear 30 20Sludge buildup 9 7.8Varnish rating (higher is better) 5 8.9High temperature deposits 60 45High temperature volatility 70 10( Engine oil performance )Other categories include: Resistance to rust, resistance to foaming, resistance to oil consumption, homogeneity and miscibility, flow reduction with varying amounts of absorbed moisture, gelation index and others.As one can see just going from the previous SJ to the SL rating is a significant improvement. I cannot wait to get the upcoming SM oil into my cars. This is the current rating as of April 2010.

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#33
In reply to #32

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/14/2014 9:57 AM

Thanks, I missed that.

However, it does not specifically address the issue of backward compatibility for SM.

As I noted, all service grades, up to but not including SM, address this.

BTW, Grade SN is now available.

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#34
In reply to #33

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/14/2014 11:34 AM

OK,here it is, in case you missed it.Read a little further below the chart and you will see.

I also miss a lot when I simply skim a subject.

The whole gist of this section is that newer versions are superior in all ways from older versions,and supersede them.At least that is the way I interpret it.

Note also at the bottom of the page the effective date of the article,

and the fact that newer versions were on the way at the time of this article.

Several newer ratings have indeed occurred since then.

Good luck with your choices.

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#35
In reply to #34

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/14/2014 1:09 PM

Well..............................sort of.

See:#6

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#36
In reply to #34

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/14/2014 2:30 PM

You Win!.

I quit!

UNCLE!

I will not expend any more time on this fruitless effort.

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#37
In reply to #36

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/14/2014 3:12 PM

In case you're still here, the entire thread became moot after #23 where I announced, well, read on.

I dealt with government quality assurance people for 20 years. I learned to be anal about such details.

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#23

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 4:18 PM

And finally,

I have decided to use Pennzoil 10W-30 SN in my gen set.

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#24
In reply to #23

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 4:30 PM

As a Pennsylvania native I would have applauded your brand choice at one time. Unfortunately that name should now be Texoil.

I spend many hours now riding my bike around on many, many miles of 40 year old abandoned Pennzoil lease roads. I could even show you an abandoned rr siding that they had built and never used before they pulled out of Pa. The storage tank and pump house and most of the filling stands are still there in the weeds.

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#25
In reply to #24

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 4:38 PM

We try to purchase all our supplies in the one square mile area that we are paid to

oversee.

The Ace hardware store sells a house brand and Pennzoil. That's my main motivation for using it.

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#26
In reply to #25

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 4:45 PM

That's okay - you have to buy what is available -about the only remaining Pennsylvania made oil is ARG (Brad-Penn) and you probably won't find that outside NW Pa.

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#27

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/11/2014 10:02 PM

I started using used synthetic oil in my old worn-out lawnmower. I noticed the sythetic would have some substance to it while the petroleum oils would get as thin as water. When I put synthetic in my car the oil pump would pick up quicker in freezing weather than the petroleum based.

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#28

Re: Engine Oil Service Grade

07/13/2014 7:38 AM

A product I swear by and use in all my engines and transmissions, any and all load bearings, no matter the oil type. MOA by BG Products. This was demonstrated to me in '70 by a salesman. He brought a test stand 350 on a trailer to my shop and dropped the oil pan and left it running for an hour or so while we talked. The product contains a 'long chain zinc compound' (not sure what that is) that allows metal to 'burnish' back into itself rather than wear off. It is an excellent anti-seize, anti-wear additive for all the oils I use. They also have an excellent line of heavy oils and greases. Check them out.

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