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Repair To Fire Door

08/04/2014 5:38 AM

I have a large hole in my wooden fire door from the removal of a night latch. Is it possible to repair this hole while still keeping its FD rating. Perhaps with wooden plugs cut to fit placed either side with intrumescent paper between? Many thanks

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#1

Re: Repair to fire door

08/04/2014 7:53 AM

First you have to know what the fire rating is. Usually in 30, 60 or 90 minute ratings. Intrumescent paper is usually used on the exterior surface. It's placed between the core and the wood laminate.

By your calling it my wooden door this is is in your home. If it was me I would call a professional that knows something about fire rated doors and how to repair them.

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#2

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/04/2014 9:42 AM

What makes you think it is (or should be) a fire rated door? We'll run with 'It has a fire label on the hinge edge of the door' and see where we get to.

As ozzb tells us, the rating might matter here.

There are, in the USA, wood veneer fire doors with ratings of 20 min, 30 min, 45 min, 60 min and 90 min. Where in the world are you, and what does the label on the door say the fire resistance is? What does the companion label on the door frame say?

You tell us "a large hole". How large? Is this a high profile building (e.g., hospital, school, library, government office)?

Why remove the lock? Just abandon in place (if it's rated hardware) and disable the thumbturn/key. This is a perfectly acceptable technique (as far as the US fire door codes are concerned).

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#3

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/04/2014 11:55 AM

Yes there is an approved door repair caulk...

..."Fire Door Solutions announces the launch of Fire Door Caulk. Recently tested and approved by INTERTEK for use to fill existing voids and through penetrations in existing listed and labeled wood fire doors. Fire Door Caulk can be used in openings up to ¾" in wood doors rated up to 90 minutes.

Fire Door Caulk has been tested to the following standards and is acceptable for use anywhere that these standards are accepted.

  • NFPA 252 (2012)
  • UL 10C (2009)
  • UL 10B (2009)
  • CAN/ULC S104

Fire Door Caulk is the only tested and approved filler material for use in up to 90 minute wood fire rated doors. Using any other type of material in your doors can void your labeled assembly."...

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#4
In reply to #3

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/04/2014 3:47 PM

We'll have to wait for Jo to come back. The phrase 'Night Latch' indicates a 1-1/4" hole through the door at the stile, and a few small mounting screw holes on the inside face of the door.

While Fire Door Caulk is a decent patch, I'm not sure Jo is going to be pleased when it is time to discover how much $$$ a 10 oz tube of it sells for.

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#5
In reply to #4

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/04/2014 4:25 PM

Well I would just reinstall a 'night latch'....for $6

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#6
In reply to #5

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/04/2014 4:31 PM

'Zactly!

As long as the hardware is UL listed for use on fire doors. Not too many rim latches or night latches will fit that bill. Even if it's non-functional, it still has to be listed... the chain is as strong as the weakest link sort of thing. We need a little bit more info from our new friend Jo.

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#7

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/04/2014 5:44 PM

Hi, thanks for all the replies so far. In reply to questions I am in the UK. The property is a private home but was previously a 'multiple occupancy' let and we are currently updating and renovating for it to again be a multiple occupancy let. I am a carpenter and have fitted many doors and made repairs to standard wooden doors and hollow core doors previously but because it will be a rental I have to make sure all fire safety aspects are covered. It is an old Georgian propery built 1730. So you can probably guess nothing is standard sized otherwise I would just replace. This door is very heavy, a good fit in the frame, already has a perco and over head closure fitted and smoke seals. I cannot find the fire rating label or evidence of the plastic core identification sometimes used but am confident it is a fire door probably FD30. The old night latch was broken where a previous occupant had kicked in the door, the damage to door and frame was such that a new lock could not be repositioned there securely. Also it was very poorly mounted in the first place in an inappropriate place so i have fitted a new lock but am left with a hole 30mm diameter and a 6mm deep area notched out on one side where the body of the latch sat(what ever idiot fitted it really didn't have a clue what they were doing and did a bodged-job) I am confident I can make a good repair and the door will be painted so am not worried about colour differences in timber. With a regular door I would plug from either side with timber cut to form oversized dowels and then plane flush to door surface so the repair is solid no internal gaps. So my question is does anyone know if this would be a suitable repair to make on a fire door. I put intrumescent paper behind the hinges and behind door furniture and could use it sandwiched between the plugs if I do repair in this manor. Many thanks for any advice.

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#8
In reply to #7

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/04/2014 6:05 PM

Intumescent paper... intumescent paper... You keep using that phrase, Vizzini... I don' think it means what you think it means...
Jo, we like the film The Princess Bride

What is this intumescent paper? I don't think it matters to this discussion, just curious. I would love to have some.

I'm afraid, from your description, the only place this is a fire rated door is within your story to us. No attached fire label, no fire door. Period. End. This doesn't mean it's not a sturdy door, just means it isn't recognized by a fire label agency. Go ahead and patch/repair the best that you can, you won't affect the fire rating.

[edit] I may have spoken too soon!
Can you really make your own fire doors in UK?

http://www.fire-door-paint.co.uk/

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#9
In reply to #8

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/05/2014 2:06 AM

Your comment made me smile. Big princess bride fan here too. Intrumecent paper is a card like product that has a fire guard coating. Like intrumecent strips that are rebated around perimeter of the door it contains a chemical that expands to plug holes in the case of a fire. Especially at weak points such as hinges, key holes etc. When I studied carpentry we were taught to use this so assumed it was common practice. But maybe not, Thanks for your feedback

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#12
In reply to #8

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/05/2014 10:01 AM

"No attached fire label, no fire door. Period. End. This doesn't mean it's not a sturdy door, just means it isn't recognized by a fire label agency."

That reminds me of an incident that happened a while back here in Chicago. Apparently someone who sells fire doors got into the 'Friends of Daley(1)' circle and insisted that all theatres in Chicago replace all their doors between the stage and house with steel fire doors. One of the first theatres target for this 'upgrade' was the Antheneum Theatre, on Chicago's North Side, an almost 100 year old building that had already shrugged off one fore and came back stronger than before.

Being a small, community-run theatre, they did not have the lawyers on hand to fight off the 'upgrade,' so they had to bay for the ugly, battleship-grey steep doors to replace the almost century-old wooden doors. One of the members of a theatre troupe that used the Antheneum worked at Underwriter Laboratories as his day job, however, and he asked for one of the old wooden doors to test out at the lab.

Two days after he started fire-testing the door, his boss told him to stop, they needed that fire chamber for other tests.

The old wooden doors that were 'unsafe by definition' according to the 'fire inspector' (who was given specific orders to declare ANY wooden fire doors in a theatre as unsafe, because that would boost sales of these metal fire doors) turned out to have a fire rating of 48 HOURS plus. The results of that test were able to be used by the other theatres to fend off the 'upgrades' by having their own doors tested prior to being forced to buy the 'improved' doors.

Notes:

1) In Chicago, there is a long(2) history of corruption and cronyism. Those people who are 'more equal than others,' to borrow a line from Orwell, are generally called 'Friends of Daley,' since Richard Daley Sr. pretty much ran the entire city like his personal playground during his time as mayor. The mayors after him claimed to be trying to dismantle the 'political machine,' but their 'dismantling' looked an awful lot like 'sitting in the driver's seat, running business as usual.' If you've got some scheme to bilk money out of the citizens, you need to make sure Hizzonah, da Mayah gets his share of the profits, as well as an upfront payment 'as a token of respect.'

2) There are some that say that the graft and corruption in Chicago started in old Fort Dearborn, the first military outpost in the area, others refute that it was the dinosaurs who were the first to do cronyism in the area. Then there are the ones who call both camps crazy, pointing out that the amoebas were preying on each other like Political bigwigs oppressing the law-abiding citizens long before there was multicelular life by Lake Michigan.

(Self-marking as OT because I'm kind or rambling here)

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#13
In reply to #12

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/05/2014 10:04 PM

Ramble notwithstanding- that is a pertinent story about how the UL fire test failed to consume the old wooden door.

GA time.

On the ramble: there are many stories about code-worthiness, enforcement, and most importantly- code sales. Companies such as Underwriters Lab and Factory Mutual make a business of this - along with a lot of other organizations.

The demand for these upgraded codes seems to be infinite.

It leads one to ask ones self why this would be so.

I am certain that I read in the distant past that Chicago was one of the first jurisdictions to enact building codes.

Tell us, have they finished writing it yet (after only a century and a half)?

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#15
In reply to #13

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/06/2014 9:32 AM

"I am certain that I read in the distant past that Chicago was one of the first jurisdictions to enact building codes."

Well, after that 'little fire,' people realized they needed to get serious.

"Tell us, have they finished writing it yet (after only a century and a half)?"

Yes and no:

Yes in that they have a complete set of codes that the building inspectors can enforce (And you can purchase a copy of the codes yourself for reference for only $400. Laws are by definition Public Domain according to the constitution, so that there are no 'secret laws.' But 'codes' are not laws, and are jealously protected by aggressive use of copyright law. The 'codes' are enforced as if they were laws, however, making them de facto 'secret laws.' But that's a rant for another time.)

No in that the codes get updated every year or so when new materials or techniques are added to the construction, electrical, or plumbing industries.

The building codes are part of the fire codes. Everything about house wiring is about not burning the city down. That's why ALL our wiring in the City is in pipe. (the pipe makes it easier to upgrade old wiring for new, or to run a new line to change a lamp into a lamp/fan combo, though)

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#16
In reply to #15

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/06/2014 11:24 AM

I have a latent rant brewing about the code 'industry'. It is slightly simplistic to say that codes are updated due to technological change. The industry exists (only) partly for its own benefit. Empires are made this way.

The National Building Code of Canada gets frequent expensive revisions too. Surprisingly, many of the wall and ceiling assemblies which in decades past were assigned fire resistance ratings (in minutes) are now referred to as untested. This is a patent untruth. Likely they have alterred the test to something metric - so that job security goes on...

That is why I asked my rhetorical question as to if they had got it done yet.

It will never be done. And new technology doesn't explain holes in the code (such as "untested"). Every jurisdiction will insist on inventing the wheel for itself.

And the wheel will never be round enough. Ever.

If it can save just one statistical life, it will be deemed reasonable. No price too high, etc,etc.

Whoops - the rant slipped out.

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#17
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Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/06/2014 11:37 AM

"And the wheel will never be round enough. Ever."

That's because:

A) They want the smoothest possible ride, aka a 'mathematically perfect' wheel, and at the same time,

B) They don't like Pi being 'three and a bit,' they would much prefer Pi to be 3.0000, to make the math simpler.

Two goals, which are A) mutually exclusive, and B) both impossible.

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#18
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Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/06/2014 1:28 PM

As you describe them, these people are merely hapless idealists.

Not so in my book, since the trend is to fix things which already work. In your allegory they remove decimals from pi so that the standard of roundness cannot be met.

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#19
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Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/08/2014 10:28 AM

"As you describe them, these people are merely hapless idealists."

No, that is painting them in altogether too good a light, they are B- buh- ... pardon me, I need to work myself up to the term, it's too strong a word to use without some lighter, less-offensive terms used first to 'limber up.'

Criminals.

Murderers.

Rapists.

Child molesters.

B- Buh- BUREAUCRATS! They are bureaucrats. They try to fix things that already work, by making them not work.

(Now if you'll pardon me, I need to go eat a bar of soap. my mouth feels so dirty after that.)

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#10
In reply to #7

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/05/2014 3:13 AM

Have you tried asking your local fire brigade chief? He may not have the answer but he may know someone who does.

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#11
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Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/05/2014 3:17 AM

...as indeed would the building's fire insurance comapny. The original poster has some telephone calls to make [above post off-topic score reduced by one point based on appropriateness].

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#14

Re: Repair To Fire Door

08/05/2014 10:49 PM

The best source for the information you are looking for is the local Fire Marshall/Fire Inspector. They are the individuals that do the inspections and therefore must know the applicable codes in order to do them. If in doubt ask them to look at the Great Britain version or similar of the National Fire Protection Association, NFPA. These are the people who write the standards and indirectly teach the inspectors.

The local Fire Chief of Chief of the local fire brigade probably isn't the best person to ask. There specialization is putting out fires and not communicating the standards. I was a chief of the local fire dept and we learned how to put fires out, not decide the hazard rating of doors.

Good Luck, Old Salt

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