Water Intrusion Into Elevator Pit, (On The Beach)

Odd... the water never gets any deeper than the 2 inches or so? I would think that precludes rain intrusion, and doesn't necessarily indicate seep unless the water table is VERY stable where you are. Right on the beach? Does there seem to be a pattern of water in the pit appearing and diminishing with the tide?

While he will be unable to help directly, your elevator maintenance contractor might be able to steer you in the right direction for a solution. You can't be the only place with this trouble, he's probably seen it before.

The only time we actually look for water in the pit, is usually in July/August when the annual inspections are done... In the winter, it could be dryas a bone. Both the first and second floor landings, (Rear Doors), are subject to wind blown rain, which during the summer we get quite a lot of. There is a floor drain on the first floor, about 8 feet from the elevator door, but no floor drain on the 2nd floor landing... If we vacuum out the water in the pit, it seems to stay semi-dry for about 2 weeks or so... If we are not reinspected within that 2 week window, we end up being violated again... Again, I'm not sure if the water is coming in from wind blown rain, or actually seeping into the pit from the ground up.

So, it now sounds like the elevator doors are exposed to the weather.

So, it now sounds like the elevator maint tech IS the guy to speak to.

The true end game here should be mitigation or elimination of the trouble source, not just getting your annual green tag. If your end game is only passing your annual, a more diligent 'Vacuum Up The Water In The Pit Just Before Inspection' regimen might be called for.

Why not observe the next time it rains/storms?

Why not inspect and make a record of the weather and the water (or lack of) in the pit for 2 weeks. That will tell you if it is seep or wind blown rain? -- JHF

I was thinking the same thing... the level doesn't seem to change much, which makes me think that it's probably coming in from the walls or ground. Because this doesn't become an issue until the state inspects, it's the old "out of sight, out of mind" thing going on.
The inspectors don't usually let us know when they are coming, so I need to find out for sure how the water is getting in, then a solution to the existing problem.

Here's a cool idea that needs to be invented.

A spring loaded pump that sits in the pit.

When the elevator goes up, the spring loaded cylinder goes up, sucking up the water.

Then with a check valve and an outlet, the gravity/weight of the elevator on the downstroke would push the water out.

No electricy and no maintainence. Just leave it there.

Since the inspectors are being paid with tax dollars, maybe they could serve some purpose other than writing violations and passing out fines.

Why not call the city leaches and have them come out and help diagnose your problem, along with what would have to be done to avoid further violations.

Make sure to be polite...at least at first.

Inspectors inspect. Leeches suck. Neither offer diagnoses.

"Offering advice is not included in our insurance umbrella."
"That's what engineers are for."
"Sorry, Pal... not my job description."

Those are both excellent observations, but experience tells me those efforts are a waste of time. Perhaps Florida, having a kinder and gentler sort of government structure, would pleasantly surprise me.

Unfortunately things like this have moved beyond the realm of paranoia, as, faced with budget cuts, state and local governments are using their employees as revenue collectors...right down to the cops.

I suspect that these people may know full well that the elevator pit contains water in mid summer, hence the timing of the inspections.

I'd be very careful about throwing in a sump pump. Sounds simple enough, but we now have radical environmentalists working throughout all government...right up to the federal level.

I wonder what the fine would be for getting hydraulic fluid on the pretty beach?

I wouldn't do a thing unless it's run through the city. Nor would I pay any fines until they provided me with an answer.

This sounds like the government thugs are doing yearly rounds of extortion.

Not so fast, oh radical one.

I agree that they may "know full well that the elevator pit contains water in mid summer". Why waste tax dollars on winter inspections when it is know that the problem is seasonal. Remember, I work with code compliance and building inspection here in my fair city.

Their job is to identify, not mitigate, the problem. Giving advice would make them liable if the building falls in.

Scatamooch, you're in a tough spot. I'd solicit the insurance company's help. They'll take the loss if there's a claim.

The dehumidifier sounds like the better option if hydro oil is mixed in with the water, unless the sump pump output is filtered.

Just my opinion.

If it's salt water intrusion from the ground, it would happen all the time, not just when the summer afternoon rains come.

If it's a little rainwater getting in there from afternoon storms, I'd like to have the inspectors explain to me why this is a violation and how to fix it.

We get the same situations here. Heavy rain, wind and thunderstorms will roll through and leave water all over the place. We had 2-3 inches just the other night.

Update: Looks like unqualified personnel can't even run a vacuum.

Johnson and another worker had worked for about 40 minutes before the accident happened, officials said. It's unclear whether there was anyone licensed to work on elevators on the scene at the time as required by state law.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/accidents/key-safety-step-missed-in-fatal-elevator-accident/2117737

I have the same probem in MINN. in my basement. I know you are inFla with more humidity.

Wet all summer dry all winter. We have a sump pump, butt I put a dehumidifier down there and run it all summer long. It keep it plenty dry. I can run my water I to a drain. You may have to pump the condensate out of the catch pan, but for $400.00 it's worth a try.

From my phart smoke.

I don't remember not providing a sump pump when there was exterior exposure, even for interior exposure come to that. Could it be leaking up around the hydraulic cylinder?

If the temperature below ground is as low as the dewpoint you would get some precipitation.

Sump pumps capable of pumping out a few inches of water are small and pretty cheap. Why not just set one in and leave it there?

Btw, it should be easy enough to determine if it's rain water or ocean water - taste it to see if it's salty. (Then spit it out.)

This presupposes that it's water.

We don't know the itinerant population in the area.

If itinerant problem there would likely be more "solid" evidence as well.

True... and likely a paper trail of some sort.

That is what cheap handheld conductivity meters are for. Don't taste it, the pigeon poo will make you sick! Another trick would be to dig a small shaft (pipe-sized) near the elevator (if possible), check to see if water builds up in the pipe to the same level from ground elevation, and sample it to check for seawater. If your problem is seawater intrusion, then why not use geo-plastic liners to seal off the elevator pit, or you can use several other proven water-proofing techniques to dry out that pit.

First you need to understand the nature of the water that is appearing. If it is a condensate that is one thing, rainwater still another thing, and seawater is probably the easier of the several sources to diagnose, and maybe to eliminate. If the source is all three, then just be prepared to continue to pay the fine.

Final suggestion: heat the pit space with solar heat, dry air to see if you can dry it out?

GA from me also, but according to Fla law, our OP has no business in the elevator pit.

If the government wants to elevate, (pun intended), themselves to this level of intrusion, without accepting responsibility, then it's time for us to start demanding something for our $17 trillion debt, property taxes, sales taxes, and every other thing they expect us to pay for.

We're growing far too accustomed to them saying, "Fix it or pay a fine". Just like the &^%^%#$#$%%^ healthcare law, they intentionally make the fine the lesser of two evils.

It's time to stop them.

Save us the predictable, boring rants, K.

Since your on the beach do you have any idea whether the pit is below sea level? In cleaning up the water have you looked for cracks? It maybe you just have to seal the cracks. Or put a water proof seal on the concrete

I've lived in Florida. If the water was coming from the daily thunderstorms. I would think that the water would be deeper. Not a consistent level during these inspections. Unless there is some place it's draining out.

Drill a hole in the floor.....see if the water comes in, or goes out....

http://www.bizrice.com/products/Acrylic-Elastic-Coating.html

...or just call these people....

http://www.cgitexas.com/

"Drill a hole in the floor.....see if the water comes in, or goes out...."

Ooooh... that sounds like a bad idea. What is the unintended consequence of inflow?

Why worry, it won't be more than 2".....lol

OK that was a bit of a joke....just call a service

Could it be that in a humid climate, the moisture content in the air is constantly being changed by the up and down or expansion / compression of the air inside the elevator shaft? The expansion and compression will be occurring above and below the elevator. Moisture content may vary slightly with the expansion mode because that will make the air slightly cooler. Then as the air cools, the moisture will be condensed from the volume of cooled air. As such it will collect at the bottom of the elevator shaft. Not on the roof because it will run off to the bottom. Each up and down cycle adds more water and releases it. I am not sure if it should accumulate more water? Mollier charts may help.

This is just a guess as I am not entirely sure this is the real case in your situation but such a phenomenon can occur in caves. You could measure the conductivity of the water in the pit. Condensate water should have a low conductivity, ground water would be high. Perhaps the elevator people could tell you if such is a problem (or not) in elevator shafts. Elevator shafts must be vented so there may be problems with an obstruction or vented with restricted flow to create a condensate. I am no expert on elevators and may be off track.

Many moonsyears ago, I had a project to install outdoor elevators in a plant in Houston. The shafts were enclosed, but the doors - especially at ground floor - were exposed. Each pit had a floor drain to a separate small sump & pump. You probably need something similar. This probably needs an engineer's involvement to make sure it meets all code requirements.

Scatamooch, I have read again your original post.

We have offered you some 'Bell the Cat' type responses, some observational remarks, and a few humorous asides.

The question that you have asked has gone without remark:
"Is there anyone local, (who actually knows what they are doing), you can recommend that I can contact to try and resolve this issue?"

We really don't know where you at, and we really don't have a feel for what's going on. Is anything we have placed here today of any use to you? We're not getting a lot of feedback, so hard to tell.

Oh ok.....take your pick

http://walkercontractinggroup.biz/elevator-pit-waterproofing/

http://cfi-1.com/foundation-leak-repair

http://www.westcoastflenterprises.com/Structural_Injection_Systems.php

I have been reading most of the comments in between projects going on here at the club. I have scheduled a meeting with a plumber and my elevator company for early next week. I believe before moving forward, the exact cause of the water intrusion must be determined and addressed accordingly. Beings how the water level seems to remain fairly constant from inspection to inspection, I would think that we have more of a seepage problem than an accumulation of rain water, but that's still to be determined. I appreciate all the feedback, including the hyperlinks. I will let you know what we find.

Most elevators I have seen in my area have a sump pump in the elevator "pit". Some work almost continuously and some only run when they are tested by the maintenance staff for PM.

Since this has several elements that can not be exactly predicted: when; length of time; quantity of water; the elapse time between incidents; and a few others not including when the inspector will show up you would cover all those items if you install a sump and put a 120v submersible sump pump in the pit. Integral to that have the installation include a smaller battery back-up sump pump with two or three batteries connected in parallel to supply the power to it. Important-- use two separate discharge pipes to where you are putting the water so if the main one (120 volt main unit) only one gets clogged the back-up will have a suitable discharge. A boat bilge pump with the back-up power system is also suitable instead of this factory pump

For the amount of potential oil problems put a couple of "oil absorbent only" "pillows" in the sump. They will float on the water and absorb any oil so they will not present a problem with the pumps. Check them during your PM periods and replace as necessary. Pillows are like the pads only more absorbent and usually contained in a nylon or poly coarse mesh "pillow case".

Another alternative for the oil is to place a oil separator filter or other device down stream from the pumps. This will be more expensive than the pillows and require more maintenance.

If you bite the bullet and install a "good and dependable system" for more money it will be much less costly and require less of your time in the future.

I once used this set up for four freight elevators and a passenger elevator. It worked so well I would forget that they were there.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Are there any wash-down facilities nearby? Any hoses? What kind of elevator? You've had this happen more than once, so when did you start a regular check of the elevator sump? Are you on the Gulf or the Inland Waterway? Sarasota, Bradenton, Englewood Beach, Boca Grande, Fort Myers? Naples? Does anyone wash the elevator? Could they be dumping the bucket?

Our beach facility is located in Bonita Springs on Little Hickory Island, and sits about 75 feet from the water's edge, on The Gulf Of Mexico. There has been evidence, in the past, of staff getting a little sloppy with the mop buckets, but I believe that has been addressed after having to replace a few elevator components.

Well an elevator hoistway 8' X 8' (kind of small) with 2" of water is about 80 gallons. This is considerably more than splashes/spills from a mop bucket.

Is it clean or dirty water this could give an indication as to where its coming from, if its salty it could be sea water or urine but I think you would smell that! If you don't feel like tasting it just boil some till it evaporates and watch for salt crystals. White crystals probably sea water a bit yellow don't put it on your chips.

Here's a Florida outfit that looks to be what you're looking for. The name says it all.

http://fixmycodeviolation.com/

In our building at Mumbai, India we had similar problem. It was solved when we discovered that there was minor leakage from near by drain chamber. It was cleaned up and inside of pit was made water proof by applying polymer cement and covering it up with 4' high ceramic tiles. Now since 4-5 years there is no such problem.

You're being sent a NOV under ASME A17.1, 106.1b(3) A good idea like mentioned several times before is to have a sump pump hooked up to a closed oil water separator of 19L or 5 gals. This is to catch the hydraulic fluids from the elevator. Since its illegal to discharge the water from the pit into a sewer or storm water system the oil water separator than needs to be pumped out by a third party. This would be a good idea even if you didn't already have a water issue because of fire sprinkler system ever goes off. A simple web search showed several waterproofing companies that specialize in elevators you should give them a call also.