Engine Dead Because of a Lub Oil Drain Valve

Valves that open to atmosphere should ordinarily be plugged/capped/blind-flanged when closed. Another possibility is a spring-closing valve, but even then a plug is desirable for back-up.

Thank you, but is there any writen rule saying that we have to do that?

How right you are!!!

"There is no low oil level alarm on these engines: it's an option..." What is the cost for this option? Is there an option to shut down with low level or low pressure?

I like the 'two valve in series' solution, Old Salt. I am going to implement this on my 'fleet'.

GA to you!

The OP's problem has happened to others and usually to operators who completely ignore the engine except at mandated service intervals. This works only until the fated day when things don't go as they should.

The OP might consider a flexible line between the oil sampling port and the proposed valves. Reason: to inhibit the transmission of vibration which likely led to the valve opening on its own.

In am not aware of Rules, but can suggest following to enhance safety:

1. Do not install valve on engine for taking oil samples.

Instead almost on all marine engines, there is a Manual hand pump with suction connected to sump, with two way valve. One way to drain the sump for maintenance and other way to prelube the engine before starting.

Even if one forgets the valve in Drain Position - oil can not come out of sump as the pump is manually operated Positive Displacement pump - unless once strokes it oil will not come out. Even then its drain is capped.

Use this pump to take sample of oil - sample quality shall be same, as the suction of bilge pump is from bottom of oil tank.

2. As additional safety install a Non Return Valve in outlet of two way valve opening towards pre lubricating circuit so that in case the Two way valve is forgotten in half turned (partly opening drain port and partly opening prelube port), under running conditions, the oil will not drain out.

3. In case it is very large engine, if valve at drain is a must, install a limit switch and wire it to give warning alarm and prevent start of engine, if it is not in closed position.

4. Also install a limit switch at shut position of two way valve to sound warning alarm and prevent engine start if it not shut properly.

5. There must be some containment sump under the engine to contain leak of Lube oil, water and fuel. Install a float operated limit switch in this sump to generate warning alarm, whether there is a fuel, water or Lube oil leak. If not provided, install this float switch in Bilge of Ship.

If any other idea comes to my mind - shall come back later.

Neither am I aware of what the "rules" are but in boating the phrase "KISS", Keep It Simple Stupid, prevails. The more things that are not necessary that you put on, the more difficult tasks are to do and also the more that has to be done, the slower an emergency situation can be resolved.

1) In almost all marine engines (inboard) there is not a permanent manual pump connected to the sump. Oil is removed from the sump by either putting a small piece of tubing down the dip stick pipe and sucking it out that way. This is connected to either a small hand pump, a small flexible rubber impeller pump (drill pump style) or a vacuum source with the oil pumped out and contained in a container between the tubing and the pump. This will hold the oil and not let it get into the pump. Many larger engines have a oil pan drain on the engine, two valves and a plug. A pump is connected to the drain piping by removing the plug, valves opened and the pump suction connected to the valves. Valves are opened and oil pumped out. If their is enough room between the drain and the hull or stringers the oil can be collected by gravity into containers. Having been in many engine areas of boats I have never seen the arrangement you describe, including my brother's twin diesel 41 ft that I was in yesterday. The system you describe would not be suitable in normal or emergency situations. If there is enough height between the engine's lowest section and the stringers use the two valves and hand tight plug.

2) Two way valves are unnecessary and make the system more complex than required. Also check valves fail and clog too often in diesel operations. If there is enough room between the oil pan and the stringers, install the double valve and plug drain system.

3) Alarm on the valve is too complex and adds possibilities of incorrect operation. Simply put a float switch in the sump at an appropriate level and connect to an alarm and, if desired, a level indicator. The more complex an system is the more possibilities of false alarms and system malfunctions.

4) Don't use a limit switch. Unnecessary if system is made simpler and easier to operate.

5) There is seldom a drip pans with a pump under engine(s). There isn't enough room between the stringers and the hull or the oil pan and the hull. This also would be of no use since the movement of the hull, (yaw, roll and pitch), would only empty it on the movement of the boat. Most common method is to have no pan under the engine, let it drip to the bilge and use an oil absorbent pillow in the bilge to collect any oils or petroleum products. Change the pillows when they become saturated. The bilge pump will pump out only water based materials. The bilge pump should be wired in as is normally done, automatic float switch with manual override.

If several inboard boats of various sizes and configurations are available, squeeze yourself into the engine compartment as check them out.

Engine compartment of boats are very restricted in operating space. Why waste room that could be used otherwise for operations. A contortionist is the best one to work in there. I have accumulated several bruises and cuts from yesterday's adventure, as normally happens.

Good Luck, Old Salt

what I have suggested is Optional attachment from Engine manufacturer of medium to large size Diesel Engines.

Do not forget that the same pump by two way valve, which is also standard option from Diesel Engine Manufacturers, allows you to start the Engine in EMERGENCY when electric Pre Lube Pump Fails.

I am Power Business for last 42 years and still active - having my own small business for past 7 years. With Grace of God, at times had innovative solutions in both Electrical and Mechanical fields, whether Steam Turbines, Turbo-generators, Hydro Generators or Diesel/HFO and Gas Engines (I am not boosting of my self - I am thankful to God for giving me optimum acceptable solution when in need and thrice in span of 42 years, when Big International & Multinational Brothers had raised their hands, do not want to name anyone). The Case in this Post being a very simple one.

Whatever suggestions were given were FIRSTLY FAIL SAFE, CLEAN, ENVIRONMENT FRIENDLY, ACCIDENT FREE and EASY TO IMPLEMENT.

You must have noticed that the Poster - who has burnt his fingers once, has already confirmed that he has decided to put a Sump with Float Switch (one of my suggestions) Other suggestions were also simple to implement and exists commercially but probably were not understood.

Tackling any Engineering issue is keeping in mind 1st. Safety of Personnel, 2nd Safety of Equipment and 3rd. Continuous Availability of Equipment. Economy of Input Costs, Capital or Operational is 4th or at times swaps with No. 3.

Please do not mind being occupied with some urgent issues I won't be able to answer further posts on this subject.

With all due respect for your experiences and knowledge, the diesel engines you are speaking of are much larger than what I am referring to. The majority of diesels use diesel/#2 fuel oil, especially for the marine usages. Very seldom will you see a boat less than 100 ft loa using HFO. Maybe in a larger boat/ship with a cylinder bore of 12" or more it will be used but not in the smaller diesels. Boats/ships that use steam turbines, Hydro Generators, diesel/hfo are few and far between in the diesel market. The majority of marine diesels are in small, cramped, low light, humid and wet locations. Seldom is there enough room to put your hands between the stringers and the oil pan.

There are relatively few, if not none, things in this world that are FAIL SAFE except for death and taxes. Same for accident free environments, accident free and easy to implement. Something will go wrong. If these suggestions were from diesel manufacture's they are from their marketing/sales dept not the service dept.

Congratulations on your 40 years of business success, it is an extremely long time. My experience does not include the same areas of products from a sales standpoint but I have many years in the Safety, Haz Ops, Maintenance and Operations responsibilities in the chemical industry. Some of this includes minor and major repairs to vehicles and other small diesels. What is directly applicable is over 50 years of not-for-pay mechanical repairs to marine diesel engines among other things. This has been for friends, relatives and friend's of friends. This experience has mostly been from the under the cockpit or cabin floor view. As such, I am very familiar with what is mandatory, good, optional or just not necessary for the operation of marine diesels. Experienced yes, expert no. How long they will wait for me to help them out is usually a good sign of how good our friendship is. Also, I still keep a small variety of tools under the p/u truck seat. Currently my longest boat is a 41 ft Marconi rigged sloop with an auxiliary diesel engine. The engine room has a clearance of about 4" larger than the engine and the gen-set. Therefore very familiar to what can be put into confined areas and what space is available to work in and install things in.

Good Luck, Old Salt

Hi

Not sure where you are but in Australia using both British and American standard marine conversions (Standard conversions include GM, Ford, ,Perkins,Gardner,Volvo and others) hand pumps for extracting the oil are very common and save a lot of mess. If you can get a sufficently large enough tube down the dipstick tube good luck and unless you have more room than us getting to the sump plug is either not possible or very little fun. These hand pumps installed properly are a sound reliable addition the oil outlet is always above the oil level so if plumbed properly pose no weak spots for leaks to develop even if the valve is left open or comes open with the gremlins.

I'm in the USA. They are also used here for smaller marine engines and also conversions some times. In reading post #15 from the original poster, I took it to mean engines much larger than that type of engine. Post # 15 states:

on the three remaining engines we have on board.

high level switch is not possible: ship design

Although the post does not directly state what size engines are onboard, my thought was that any boat/ship big enough to utilize four inboard diesel engines would have a drain system with greater capacity than the oil suckers.

I also took his description of "ship" and not "boat" to mean that the four engines were of substantial size. Four engines are normally only used on larger vessels. I used the definition of a ship vs. boat which states a boat is small enough to be carried on the deck of a ship and not vice versa. Large semi-submersible ships, the type used to return the USS Cole to the USA and transport large portions of offshore oil rigs not included.

Good Luck, Old Salt

I like the idea (though I have little experience with such pumps,like none!), but how do they handle any crankcase pressure pulses and the like?

Can you "lock" them in some way?

Hi Andy

There is a valve between sump and pump so it is isolated from crankcase pressures. Some are lockable, depends on installers preference on brand

This appears to be one of those accidents caused by accounting saving a few dollars again.....without knowing why such devices are needed to be properly installed and used.....

Naturally, the accountant concerned has long ago moved on and will never know the results of his actions, and will probably do similar things in the future......

Our company accountants gave even production (also a pain in the butt!) Engineers big money to save money, but it just caused us in the field major problems and wasted time for us and the customers......

Best example was the cheap plain bearing fans from Italy they installed in highly expensive equipment (the old China, from before!!) that were used to cool hot power supplies. Once they stopped working, they actually caused extra heat! No RPM sensing, too expensive, no temperature sensing too expensive. We took delivery of all the units and broke them down and replaced all Italian fans with top quality ball bearing Papst fans. It was the best and quickest fix as they run for years in 40°C or hotter air......

There were many other examples over the years that I could mention, but it would only get boring.....

I remember that I took home, from the metal trash (I was allowed, it was not "stealing"), dozens of these fans, almost brand new, they are fine in "normal" temperatures. They have been fitted in our last three trailers for the cooling of fridges and ovens in hot countries, plus several friends have ventilated their cellars and and and......not a single one has ever broken in use......I still have 6 or so as spares.....20 years later!!

I was so lucky that they were 230VAC for Europe!!!

If you refuse to apply the optional devices,then you must resort to manual checking of conditions.

Someone should be making the routine rounds,which should include checking engine oil level.

A real time log should be implemented,and any deviation from normal should be noted and corrected.

This will establish a time line for the failure.

Sometimes new employees are confused by all of the valves in an engine room, so color-code all of the valves thus:

Always open valves:Green

Always closed valves:Red

Throttled Valves:Yellow,with the normal position indicated by a black line at 12 o'clock,or an agreed upon mark.

This will enable a quick visual check for valves in wrong position due to vibration or tampering.

Wiring critical valves closed,or open,as the case may be, while underway is also an option.Same applies for plugs.Paint all plug couplings red.Drill and wire all plugs.

This is not a complete or exhaustive list,but it will get you started down a more reliable path.

Even if you do decide to install the normal alarms,it is a good idea for mission critical situations.

Aircraft have safety wire on this type of critical inspection port. That would be my next move.

What about just plain regular preventative inspection and maintenance?

thanks a lot for all your comments, I cannot reply to everybody but I can add somme more details.

- the sample valves have been removed and replace with a plug (with loctite to prevent unscrewing)

-we ask for a quotation to fit the low level lub oil alarm on the three remaining engines we have on board.

-the leakage on the drain valves starts 10mm before the shut down (and the failure), making some regular visual check every 5 minutes is definitely not possible.

-installing a diptray under the engines with a high level switch is not possible: ship design

this sample valve is part of the engines. it is not possible to add a plug without piping modification.

these engines have a class certificate. Because of this certificate this engine has to comply with some rules. we could have a engine explosion and fire on board because of this lack of safety.

my question is: does somebody know where I can find the "rules" for engine manufacturer from DNV,ABS,Loyds...for example??

thanks a lot for your help again

have a nice day

pa

As far as I know, there aren't any rules regarding a second safety for the drain valve for lube oils. But there should be an emergency lubricating facility (e.g. a gravity tank) for emergency lubricating. The related rule of the Turkish Loyd can be read on:

http://www.turkloydu.org/TurkLoydu/Plan-Kontrol-ve-Arast%C4%B1rma-Hizmetleri/Turk-Loydu-Kurallari/Kurallara-Erisim/TL-Kurallar%C4%B1-Kullan%C4%B1m-Kosullar%C4%B1/kurallar/TL-Kurallar%C4%B1.aspx?lang=en-GB

There you should choose under Part B - Chapter 4 - Machinery (2014)

Under this, subject rule is written on Sec. 16 - H.1.3

I know that this won't bring your crank back, but I hope, this will be a lecture for all of us.

I don't know where you would find the "rules". If the oil plug is anything like on a car, then I would suggest it was not properly torqued. If vibration caused it to come out, then maybe a lock washer should be considered.

You did not specify what type of valve is in the system however there are multiple devices available to lock out the valve in whatever position required.

I do not know of any written standard for this application but I would be suspect of any valve in which the mechanism is so loose that it could open without human intervention.

I would surmise the valve is either worn-out or it was not properly closed by the last person that opened it.

If the valve is indeed opening on it's own accord, and depending on the valve design, it could be as simple as tightening the packing to OEM specification standard.

All said; A bad valve can be replaced but nothing other than a good operation & maintenance program with good record keeping can begin to address human deficiency.

Adding an oil sump monitoring system with proper visual and audio alarming displayed in the con tower/room especially on any vessel navigating the open sea would be the best option to offset poor human performance.

However; Adding the alarm system will only be as functionally reliable as the quality of the maintenance program and testing adopted and enforced.

Even if you have a plug installed in the valve outlet, the person performing the sampling and/or maintenance can easily forget or intentionally leave the plug out.

The only way to compensate for this error would be to adopt a visual inspection of the engine(s) and all vessel equipment before leaving port and on a periodic time interval while the vessel is underway.

Considering the risk and liability of losing an highly critical engine in the middle of the ocean, I would think that your vessel would already have this type of visual inspection procedure in place with serious consequences for anyone not complying with it.

If your engine has an injector pump, you should worry about the possibility that a leaking seal on the pump could introduce fuel into the sump and dilute the lube oil raising the level in the sump.