Need to Raise 60lbs with a Small Electric Motor

Just add a weight to the pulley rope that neutralizes the weight, then it should be easy to raise and lower by hand....

Thank You.. By far the easiest solution, but my goal is to use an electric motor, long term goal is to also use a wireless remote to control. I know this makes little sense, but I like to invent stuff around the farm that is needed. Maybe someday I can create an electric cow, haha.

Oh creative type eh....then I would just hook the rope to a garage door opener...

Well shoot, somebody beat me to the electric cow, haha

The biggest difference is, Electric Cows don't give milk, Just shocks. Shocks don't work on cereal.

"Shocks don't work on cereal."

You haven't tried Frankin-Berry cereal.

You will have to find a way to ensure that once the fans are in their highest position, something holds them from twisting from the torque. Just hanging them from ropes will not do.

Very True, just trying to start with first things first. Trying to find an electrical device to raise the fan about 10 feet and will fit in a 10" radius. I have a lot of thoughts about the cradle to hold the fan once it is retracted. It seems that the technology used in a wench would work but cannot find one that is small enough to fit the space. Or course I don't need the big cables and spooler. I believe that a very small cable can be used to handle the weight, or even a metal ribbon. The motor size and gearing is what is hard for me to figure out because of my lack of knowledge. Have emailed several motor manufactures, but all say they don't have anything. (probably don't want to mess with it). Even the smallest wenches I have found will handle hundreds of pounds. Thought about buying one and taking it apart!! Just don't know.

I like your thinking.

With a relatively small motor you could lift 60 pounds easily. Look what 12 volt winches can do.

Since you have plenty of time, you could start with a cheap ac motor and experiment with different pulley sizes. Maybe even a double pulley/snatch block arraignment, like I've used with my winch before could be rigged.

I've got to go.

More later.

Thanks for you response. Just trying to find a place to start. DC is battery, AC is house current, right?? Since I don't understand motor size, torque relationship, I have no idea what size motor to start with and then deal with gear boxes.

Yes, DC is battery, like automotive winches.

AC is what you have in the barn.

But, a 12v battery and a battery charger would work if you have an old winch to use.

That solves the problem you'll have with an AC motor. No way to keep the fan up when the power's off.

12V remote control winches are cheap and readily available.

2500 lb. ATV/Utility Electric Winch with Wireless Remote Control

Item #61297 Only: $129.99 Sale: $69.99

No snatch block required.

Thank you!!! Here is what is great about your post. Don't know why I did not do it earlier. Looking at the specs, I now know that at 1 hp motor will do the work. Really need a ac motor, so that is what I will look for. A 1 hp motor with a 4"shaft geared properly will definitely work. A 153:1 gear is over kill because I am not needing 2500 lbs, just 60lbs. Do not need 50lb of heavier cable, just 10 of dual lightweight cable. Can eliminate the large spooler and the weight. So...now I will concentrate on a 1 hp ac electric motor, find a gear box that will handle the weight(maybe) with a wireless remote. I have am developing a way to set this fan on the cradle that all fans come with so it doesn't wobble. Wish me luck. Any other thought would be appreciated.
Again, Thank You!!

You do not need a 1 HP motor.

1 HP is the work a horse can do.

You don't need a horse to raise those fans.

Think about this some more. A 1/5 hp motor is all you need, if that.

Wait for some other guys here that put stuff together like this all the time.

Winding some 200# test fishing line around a 1/2" shaft of a fractional HP motor would work for this.

There's still the problem of keeping the fans up when you turn the power off.

It's the weekend.

Relax, have a cool one and think some more.

Thanks, turning my attention to 1/5hp. I posted my entire thinking process in this blog a few hours ago. It tells the entire story!! Over my head, but will be fun trying to get the entire thing done.....if ever. Haha

OK, some questions/comments in bold.

a) fan is in normal operating position and turned on.

b) lower button is pushed on the remote turns fan off

c) this causes the fan to stop turning OK

d) when the fans stops turning, the motor raises the fan 1/4 inch, releasing the pressure of the weight on the cradle What tells the motor to start turning and stop after 1/4"?

e) the cradle then opens, allowing the fan ball to pass through What causes the cradle to open? A spring?

f) the fan then is lowered a predetermined, programed amount. Lowered?

g) when the raises button on the remote is activated, the fan is raised back through the opened cradle 1/4 higher then needed. I'm lost

h) the cradle then closes What closes the cradle?

i) the fan ball is lowered back on the cradle

j) electrical contacts that supply electricity to the fan are engaged, allowing the operation of the fan to continue. With the remote?

We're back to a stepper motor and some logic control. You can't do all this with a garage remote.

Take a look at the steps. Either I don't understand or just haven't grasp your concept.

I think this is doable, just needs to cook some more.

_{28 laps to go at Martinsville, back later.}

This could be tough! When I told my wife what I was working on in the barns concerning the fans, she said"well honey, if you can get that to work, maybe you can apply this to the fans in our house that are 20' so I can clean them without you bringing in the latter", so phase two was born. I am making some hugh assumptions(u know what that means). The first assumption is that the motor raising and lowering the ceiling fan can be controlled by a programmed chip on the motor. So the raising to ceiling height plus 1/4 inch, lowering the fan ball on the ceiling cradle, and reversing this action during the lowering of the fan(so my wife can clean it) can all be done by programing this chip. When thinking about this design, the electrical seemed to be a problem. In order for the fan to spin it obviously needs electricity, however if the electrical lines stay connected to the fan during the raising and lowering of the fan it would mean the electrical lines would have to wrap around a spool. No good, too easy to have these electrical lines to wear out, crack and fail. So I was thinking that the fan itself would get its juice from some kind of contacts when in the retracted position. The fan needs to turn off when the lower button on the remote is selected again, by a chip programmed that is in the fan itself, because I can imagine it coming down and slicing off my head!!!!

I sure hope you have installed some ceiling fans in your life. If so you know there are really only two types. Flush mounted fans bolted directly to the ceiling and offset ceiling fans on rods of various lengths for different ceiling heights. I am only talking about offset fans that have a ball on the end and set it a cradle. In the cradle where the ball rests, it is concaved in shape. I think this is one of the solutions that keeps the fans from wobbling. When sketching out some thoughts, it seems to me that the only thing that needs to open and close in the cradle is not the entire cradle itself, rather the part that is concaved in shape. Only needs to open 1/2" to let the ball through. I think it is imperative to keep the structural integrity in tact. The cradle would still be bolted to the ceiling, some type of scissor action maybe for just the concaved structure to open and close.

I wish I knew what a stepper motor was, will google it. I also thought about some kind of plunger mechanism to open and close the cradle. Something like this... when the motor releases the weight off the cradle by lifting up 1/4 inch, it would press against some kind of gearing that would open the cradle, leaving the cradle open. Once the fan is lifted back up, the same 1/4 inch raise above the cradle would close the opening. Just a thought.

Anyway, still cooking as you suggested. haha, One last note. If I am to ever bring something like this into the house, this is why I am trying to get this all fit into an area around 10" in diameter and some 5" deep. That way I can make a ceiling cover for it so its not ugly. My brain Hurts...Yours???? Lastly, the remote runs everything with the assist of programmed chips carrying out several tasks. Thank you soo much for putting up with me! Are you a mechanical engineer?

OK, I may have been laboring under an important misconception here.

Your title says you want to raise a fan.

Do you really want to lower a fan first to work on/clean it? Then raise it back up to the cradle? I think yes. Maybe I'm the only one who didn't understand this. I miss a lot.

So, yes, I have installed both types and just replaced one with the cradle a month ago. It was on a flat ceiling and I'd never hard bolt one. Too much chance of vibration making it fall down. The cradle lets the fan move without putting stress on the mounts.

Sorry to be so dumb, but now your explanation makes more sense.

This is not too different, but the un-seating and re-seating from the cradle will require lateral movement of the ball. Not impossible. It'll just take some thought. That's better than trying to rig some type of opening and closing gizmo for the cradle. IMHO.

The electrical contacts are not a real big deal since the power will be off when the contacts break and make, so no arcing.

I grew up on a farm in Arkansas, so I learned to improvise. I call myself a mechanical engineer, but worked with materials for the first 25 years of my career, when we were going into space and fighting in Vietnam.

We have another guy, netmaker, who is a seat of the pants guy too. You can check out some of his stuff by clicking on his name and going to "posts and comment".

We all enjoy his questions as we have yours. After the weekend, more minds will come around to offer help.

Finally, I know nothing about programming, etc. but there are guys here who do and will be glad to help.

This is an international forum and members from all over the world will pitch in and help you.

Why not also lower and raise the cradle?

For the power supply problem, don't they make extendable power wires that coil around the shaft/cable? I've seen them on flood lights supported from below--fire apparatus scene lights.

The problem I see with this is there is nothing locking the assembly securely to the ceiling, except the motor/cable tension.

Well you could have a rechargeable battery to run the fan that could be charged with a wireless charger when the fan was in the up position,,,,then there would be no need for an electrical wire to extend....that way the fan and mounting assembly could be lowered with the fan remaining well supported at all times....How many fans are we talking about in the barn, and what distance between them..?

Shirley, you jest.

Oh I be serious....

http://www.toolnut.com/Bosch_WC18H_18_Volt_Wireless_Charger_Holster_p/wc18h.htm

Well, technically, I guess......................................................................

But not a simple solution.

Oh we passed simple a couple a miles back.....lol

http://www.sunshineworks.com/solar-fans-vari-cyclone-ceiling-fans.htm

Hummm, not sure what this has to do with the fan!!!!

Ok, sorry did not see your post, understand now. I think the hardest part of this thing is going to be the mechanism that opens and closes the cradle, not the electricity. I am going to cook on that some more. I really think there is a simple solution to the cradle, just have not thought of it yet. Keep thinking about some sore of scissor action to open and close the opening at the base of the cradle 1/2" to let the ball pass through, then close again to let the ball rest on it just like it does now. Cooking!!!

These fans are pretty heavy. Redesigning the cradle to open and positively close seems a bit of a task to me.

I keep coming back to how the ball is lifted, slid horizontally into place (and then oppositely removed later) as a more positive method. But, that requires both upward and lateral movements prior to lowering the fan.

In any case, the cable will need a clear path above the cradle (free of wires and obstructions) to traverse.

Hi lyn,

It may take me a while, but I am going to start putting something together so I can show something visual. I cannot seem to draw out some of my thoughts, so using some 2"pvc, 3"pvc and 4"pvc, and wood, hope to have something for you to see on my thoughts. Boy does this sound stupid....but maybe in a week I can have something visual for everyone to see concerning the closing collar. Wood and PVC, I have lost my mind!!! haha

I see all kinds of things too in my mind. Like that mechanism for lifting the ball out of the pocket.

And many here have lost their minds so you fit right in.

Sent from a bar. More later.

Was looking at that yesterday, that would solve a lot of problems. But, in order to do this, it would seem to me that whatever I used to spool the fan vertical, would need to also be on some kind of worm screw in order to then move 3" horizontally, have no idea what that would be.

I think I have some understanding. How much space would this take. Don't know the size of solenoids. I have been thinking about lots of ways, was working in my workshop yesterday and believe that opening and closing the bottom portion of the cradle is what would work best. The cradle must be securely attached to the ceiling, so if a way can be found to open and close only the bottom portion of the cradle to allow the ball to pass through, that would be the best. I am ordering some cradles so I can start cutting them up and putting in hinges or something. If you have any time, I would love to see the crudest simple drawing if possible. Thanks!!

I like this a lot. However, what the heck is it and where do you buy one?? The fact that it closes and the weight of the fan is supported by direct contact to the ceiling will work.

I like the springs also.

Give this a thought. Look at your drawing, remove the hinge and all vertical metal above the contact point of solenoid. This mechanism would simply slide underneath the ball when opening and closing. It would all be contained within the cradle that comes with the fan and attached to the ceiling. It has always been my vision to be simple as not to reinvent what now works concerning the cradle that holds the fan. This is very close. I know that this "slider" would need to travel on some kind of grooves to open and close. Does any of this make since???

Instead of a ball and cradle assembly, maybe it would be feasible to have the fan base (a square) slide into a fixed (square) frame as it approaches the ceiling. The fixed frame would prevent the fan from spinning when it's in the fully raised position. The fan would continue to be supported by the cable when it's in the raised position.

Sooo, to much???

in all installations, the cradle is secure to the ceiling. This gives the fan ball a hard surface to resist, or at least be part of the solution of having a fan that is not wobbling around. Since this is design is standard industry wide, I thought it would be better to stick with it. It seems to me that designing a cradle that would open at the bottom would insure that I could keep the fan secure. however, I'm curious. what did you have in mind if the cradle was detached for lowering? how would you secure it back to the ceiling when the fan was raised?

The ball is standard as you say and purposed to compensate for hanging a fan from and angled ceiling, and simple. Wobble is a matter of imbalance.

1 hp is way overkill....1/4 hp would fine...you can get framed motors and gear reduction sets...that's why I suggested a garage door opener, it's already geared and has remote control....might be able to get one or at least some parts from a garage door installer service....

found one on Ebay for $15

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Craftsman-Garage-Door-Opener-/291271159752?pt=Garage_Doors_Openers&hash=item43d11d2fc8

Two of these... one on each side plus a trailer hand winch would fit the bill I would think. Hook your motor to the hand winch.

If I were doing this, I'd go with either the winch or the garage door opener (actually, if I were doing it for me, I'd buy two solenoid valves for $10, or steal them out of defunct dishwashers, and let the city water pressure do the work - the spillage would be no problem in a cowshed), but the thing you have to watch is that most of the torque is not in the lifting, but in the holding. To move 10 ft in 2 minutes requires almost no acceleration, but you still have 60 lb times the radius of the drum, and you can get up to 10 ft-lb of torque real easy. So, make sure you use a counterbalance to do almost all the holding. The equations you need are

motor speed ω = x/πdt, where x is travel distance in inches, d is diameter of drum in inches, and t is time in minutes, and ω comes out in RPM.

torque Τ= (weight + a little for acceleration) times the radius of the drum, in in-lb

power P = Tω, with P coming out in in-lb/minute, and you gotta convert that to something more useful.

Remember that, if you use a lot of gearing, allow about double torque and power to make up for inefficiency.

Good luck, have fun, and try trash picking to see if you can find everything for free.

Besides what has been posted, what did farmers of old do to get hay bales into the barn and set them down? How about the winches that are used to move basketball rims and backboards up out of the way? What about the ones inside of flag poles to raise and lower the flag? Maybe a winch like is used to pull a boat onto a trailer.

You can also use a stepper motor with a break and a lead screw to do the job . You cab drive the stepper from your computer,

Thanks for your post, however I don't know what a stepper motor is, haha. The full reality of what I am in the process of doing is to design a system where the fan is raised 1/4 inch higher then needed, then the "fan cradle" closes making a stable platform for the ceiling fan to sit on. It is necessary to understand that I plan to raises the fan, not by the fan motor housing, but by the ceiling ball. Am hoping at some point to have a motor that can be controlled by a programmed chip that tells it what to do. I know I am biting off more then I can chew, but here it goes...

a) fan is in normal operating position and turned on.

b) lower button is pushed on the remote

c) this causes the fan to stop turning

d) when the fans stops turning, the motor raises the fan 1/4 inch, releasing the pressure of the weight on the cradle

e) the cradle then opens, allowing the fan ball to pass through

f) the fan then is lowered a predetermined, programed amount.

g) when the raises button on the remote is activated, the fan is raised back through the opened cradle 1/4 higher then needed.

h) the cradle then closes

i) the fan ball is lowered back on the cradle

j) electrical contacts that supply electricity to the fan are engaged, allowing the operation of the fan to continue.

Sorry, I'm rambling, and I know this is an uphill battle. Hoping my son in law can program the chip, he is a computer programmer. Planning to have some "doodad" with maybe a worm gear open and close the fan cradle.

Thanks to all, I appreciate all your suggestions!! My brain hurts, I think I will go feed my cattle some range cubes.

https://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC4QtwIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dbngx2dKl5jU&ei=nDtNVJatH4jA7AbKq4G4Dg&usg=AFQjCNFC4oV8VvwnYOlpuTy_aaPkbxpv-A&sig2=T21w4gwTkQY29M3E06UOXg

Was reading more on what a stepper motor does. It seems to me that you can have a chip programed for this motor to be very precise as to the distance you want it to spool the cable for the fan.

If you have the room, my money's been moved over the the garage door opener, mounted as shown in the picture, with a cable hooked to the driven device where the vertical door attachment arm would go. Then, use a simple pulley at the end of the long arm to draw the fan up.

But, "space I have is about a 10" radius" may nix this. Then back to a motor/pulley.

Something like a ceiling fan ?Is the purpose to hide the fan or lower it for inspection or maintenance ?

exactly, trying not to reinvent what already works. So raising and lowering by the ceiling ball that sits in the ceiling cradle is what I am going for. Obviously, the trim piece that covers the ball mount at the ceiling would need to be larger. Trying to fit all this in a 10" diameter space.

You don't really need this to be complicated. I still don't understand the space constraints, but . . . Anyway, you're only going 1 inch per second, so that's not too bad. If you've got room for a motor and worm drive, you don't need the cradle; if you have a high ratio worm (1 inch per second sounds like one), the worm won't backdrive, i.e., will hold itself in place with no power on it. You also probably don't need to turn off the fan before raising and lowering unless you have big honking blades on there. The gyro moment will be pretty low. The 1/4 inch up and down requires some kind of sensing, maybe just a limit switch, but still . .

If your torque gets out of hand with holding that weight (remember you're holding it as you raise and lower), consider a constant force spring on the worm shaft; look at the Negator to get an idea on this.

If the ball is not sitting in a secure cradle, what would keep the fan from twisting when the fan is on??

Don't know yet. I don't have enough information about your setup to pick a solution.

You won't need much of a motor to lift 60 lbs 10 feet in 2 minutes.

550 ft-lb/sec = 1 HP

(60 lb)(10 ft)/(120 sec) = 5 ft-lb/sec = .01 HP

1/5 HP motor would be able to do the job in about 6 seconds (ignoring frictional losses), but it would be on the verge of stalling. If you set up pulleys or gears to make the lift last 2 minutes, essentially any fractional HP motor would be sufficient.

As a hoarder I have collected a lot of printers and plotters containing stepper motors and adapt them for use in gadgets. The beauty of these are that you already have the control circuit developed and one can control it by a simple HPGL command like PA xxxx via a RS232 port.

With only 10" above the cradle a stepper on a drum like a winch can be used for lowering / lifting .

The other stepper can be used to move the two halves of the cradle apart / closer.

You may have to make a guide to have the key aligned with the slot in the cradle.

Why do the fans need to be raised/lowered?

A sketch could help.

Some terms are weird: you may never find a fractional hp motor with a 4" or 5" shaft; are you mixing shaft size with drum/spool size?

This was just my thinking. My vision is to put two spoolers on the shaft to spool the small cable in order to raise the fan. However, based on the help I have been given, I realize that I guess I will be using some sort of gearbox. I guess this gearbox can have a shaft on it. My other thinking was to have the fan lifted by a metal ribbon tape so only one spool is necessary, really though, I don't know what I'm talking about.haha

No matter what I do, one of my main objectives is to have all this fit in the smallest space possible. Thanks for you reply. I'm still cooking.

The load that the weight of the fan has can be reduced with counter balance. This would reduce the load and the size of motor needed. The wire can be ran down the inside of some retractable tube. The retractable a series of inter fitting tubes with a groove or maybe a ball plunger to keep the tube from turning with the force of the motor. Another thought was linear bar and bearings cut to short sections with stops on the end. Ganged together to retract and extend.

Maybe it would be easier to just buy or rent, a personal boom lift....

http://www.manliftsandboomliftsofamerica.com/snorkel.html

haha

Try to keep it simple. I would think manual would be best. otherwise if you have hired help, (or young family members), you'd need limits switches such as the ones on a garage door.

More importantly, I like to know how these fans will be secured, a 60 lb barn fan, is not a small fan. there is quite a bit of torque on them as well as thrust.

I may have missed the reason why you want to raise and lower the fans.

for maintenance and cleaning. These fans are more securely attached then the typical fan in the typical home. I just know that I can come up with a programmed solution the is run with a remote to do this and keep me from getting up on ladders. also interested in the same inside my home. Keep cookin..

hi there, I'm curious of what are you up to?? With a little tech a garage door opener can be actuated via smart phone. A telescopic arrangement or various sizes of tubing to fit inside etc and slotted to use pins so fan may turn and torque managed; yup

I know, saw that on the internet. It has soooo many limitations are to height. Plus does not answer the question of spooling or gathering the electrical lines. I just like to do things around the farm that I have thought up. This one is a real dooozzzzyyyyy, but I know I can do it. Like all the good advice though. I'm cookin some more, and more and more. Please bear with me!!!

If using nested tubes a coiled wire inside protects the wire.

Here an idea or two... have a square frame attached to the rafters or ceiling. Then have the fan assembly attached to another square frame that nests into the first one. The electrical can be handled by contacts or guided plug/socket.

To secured the assembly either a toggle latch or solenoid pin to lock the two halves together. The toggle latch as the moving frame rises a short distance the toggle flips open the the frame can be lowered. On reversal the toggle flips closed then holds the moving frame as the tension on the cable is released. Think something like a click retractable ink pin as an idea. The solenoid could be wired in parallel with the motor to retract the lock pin then when the power is on. When the power is off a spring pushes the pin out. locking the two pieces to gather when they are nested.

Another idea if power is needed at differed heights use a electrical cord reel like extension cords or trouble lights used.

Oh as far as the fans in the house a similar nesting frame and plug/socket could be used. By installing the frame in the ceiling and running a cable/rope through the joist space and using a pulley and a small hole at the wall and tieing the rope/cable to a cleat. Think like the way chandeliers of old were secured, and raised and lowered to light the candles.

Charles

Thanks for your post. Interesting, you have my thinking down pretty well however, I need something more attractive. So I was going for something that would be able to be covered by a ceiling trim piece. I think the easiest thing is going to be some kind of concave slider that opens and closes when the weight of the fan is taken off the cradle.