The Big Picture View of AC Power

Try me....

The only thing those boxes effectively do is suck money from you into their wallet. A small number of those boxes do a correction of power factor. If your power company charges you for Volt Amperes instead of real Watts this can reduce a utility bill by a few pennies. Good luck recovering all of the difference.

Nice promo

Power cord, fancy, all we got were those ones with two permanent magnets strapped to a piece of plastic drain pipe. No they didn't work either and yes I was NOT pleased to find that these were for a time being sold by a large local retail franchise.

"I have some drip pans for grid leaks if anyone is interested"...could these be modified to catch memory leaks?

Oooh! A hat with memory leak protection. Let me have two in case I forget where I placed one.

What might happen if somebody borrowed your hat?

Oooh! A hat with memory leak protection

As a product designer who also works in marketing this won't work as a hat, however it would as a cap.

You would market it as a "Super Cap-acitor"

<ba dom bom......ching>

People saying "I don't know" when they really don't know is such a novelty and is so rare that the questioners probably can't believe their ears when they hear it, and so they ask again. I've seldom met people (engineers, especially, but don't ask me why because, really, I don't know) who'll answer "I don't know" and mean it. Most of my co-workers would say anything - even pure BS - rather than appear as if they didn't know the answer. It's so very tiresome.

I admire you for admitting you don't know when you truly don't know. I wish more people were that forthright.

GA

Yet my boss calls me a 'Know it all' and a liar fairly often and not in good fun.

I am quite confident in what I do know and will defend my knowledge at any time yet I have no reservations about saying I don't know something when I have no good or correct answers to work with on said topic.

As far as being a liar I do my best to be honest simply because I am too lazy to ever want to try and maintain a lie.

"If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything" -- Mark Twain

Maybe your boss is telling more about what your boss would do himself were he in your shoes instead of you, yes?

People who accuse you of BS like that? Listen to them real carefully: they're describing their inner selves. Enough of it for long enough and you learn a great deal about them and, they, about you, nothing at all.

"they're describing their inner selves. Enough of it for long enough and you learn a great deal about them and, they, about you, nothing at all."

Preaching to the quire so to speak on that one!

Yea the guys a real blow hard most days and rarely backs anything up or typically fails miserably when he tries to. Small in stature and and ethics but high in OCD which makes his prioritization of work real strange some days.

I can't say whether he lied his way into his position or just got real lucky by being in the right place in the right time. I find him terrible at passing pertinent info along and he openly flaunts that he does not like to teach people anything which to me I have come to take as being half laziness and half not knowing how to do what he claims.

Standard management type you could say.

Now that you have me thinking this topic is almost worthy of its own thread relating to we each deal with the company bad apples who too often dictate how we do our jobs.

Separating fools from their money is a noble art. After all, you will spend it more wisely than they did.

In reference to #2

Fellow CR4'ers This is not an endorsement nor a damnation of the item listed below, simply posting sites which provide more "information" about an item with purportedly softens water. This is the device that was mentioned in #2.

Did some internet searching and found the black box, "actually blue", which was supposed to soften water by wrapping the coil around the water pipe. Yes, this is for sale at the big orange box http://www.homedepot.com/p/qv/204186467 for $198.97.

and is manufactured/wholesaled by http://www.clearwater-enviro.com/scaleblaster.html

It is stated that this blue box with a wire wrapped around a pipe, copper or plastic, is an alternative to water softeners without the use of salt or chemicals. It's "operation" is to:

This innovative product produces an oscillating electronic field using a unique and complex modulating frequency wave form that changes the physical shape, size and charge of the calcium molecules and causes them to lose their adhesive properties.

Lime scale will no longer form in the pipes or on equipment that comes in contact with hard water. This results in the lowering of the saturation level of hard water, so that new lime scale is prevented and any existing scale is removed. The surface tension of the water is lessened, which will increase the solubility of the water, making it a better solvent.

The installation and operation manual is at http://www.scaleblaster.com/pdf/SB-MAX%20Installation%20and%20Operations%20Manual.pdf

and a video of it's installation is at https://www.youtube.com/embed/v8ZSeoPPs_I?rel=&wmode=transparent&autoplay=1

and the spec sheet is http://www.scaleblaster.com/pdf/ScaleBlaster-Spec-Sheet-Residential-SB-MAX.pdf

the science of how it works is at http://www.scaleblaster.com/scaleblaster.html - sorry, link no longer available

If anyone can explain to me how a blue box with a printed circuit board, one length of wire and a wall wart power supply can do this, the drip pans and hinges are yours FREE! Included with this is the opportunity to buy at a dirt cheap price, either the Golden Gate Bridge, the Brooklyn Bridge, the Sunshine Skyway Bridge, the George Washington Bridge, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge, the Seven Mile Bridge, or the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Sorry base jumpers, the New River Gorge Bridge was sold last month.

This is the classic example of SNAKE OIL.

Intelligent comments please, how does it work or not work?

Good Luck, Old Salt

Methinks someone in Umber Krate's purchasing department has been thoroughly schnookered.

You should have seen what happened at a not far away nuclear weapons facility (unnamed) where they tried these "black boxes" on their ~20 cooling towers.

The water treatment vendor was a friend of mine, and told me the horror story of how the entire process had to be shut down in order to remove all the scale.

If I know the principle of something, I'm OK; if I don't, I look it out; so yes, I think I can tell when they're trying to fool me.

it would have worked just fine had you taken the time to click the heels together 3 times on your ruby slippers

He must have preliminary assessment on your load types before recommending correction of power. Inductive load or a power lag (between Volt & Current) could be improved, aside from it, nothing can be done at all other than accept it that energy is already spent.

The Department of Energy (DOE) thinks that there is real potential...

http://www.clarkpublicutilities.com/index.cfm/your-business/rates-and-billing/power-factor/archives/reducePowerFactor.pdf

Time to get flamed, I will kindly agree to disagree. Because of reactance, adding reactive circuits can save power (VA) but will shave only a little work (Watts). The utility companies know this and with certainty they work diligently to solve the concern in the distribution network. Truly, utility companies use high voltage ceramic capacitors on their side of the consumer meter.

If the salesman stated he would save you more than 2-4% working watts he is truly full of nothing good. If he was stating he could save you power, with calculations and sizing, he is not lying. The real working Watts can be saved in two ways, I^2R losses and with some types of reactive equipment voltage harmonics elimination will show real watts savings. Harmonics create collisions which equate to heat generation and power losses. Additionally it is difficult to harness useful working energy from the distorted portion of the wave.

Also harmonics in the electricity is tagged as "Dirty Power" and there is real solid evidence that dirty electricity has adverse physiological impacts on biological lifeforms. Google "Dirty Electricity and Human Health", caution your head might explode. Consider starting with the BioInitiative Report 2012.

The discussion presented needs to be developed further, this is an conversation I have some familiarity with.

Utility companies are POWER companies, they are not the watt companies or the work companies.

First we need to discuss the difference between Watts and Volt-Amperes or in the AC world we know this as Real power -vs- total apparent power. The total apparent power must still be generated somewhere by something and then transmitted to the end user. Amps saved at the load are instantly saved though out the network all the way back to generation.

It should be, but it is not well known to consumers that AC power cannot truly be measured in Watts. Watts does not account for reactance. Reactance is a real thing when discussing a sine wave transmitting energy. There is a phase timing relationship in the waves which is most often known as and listed as Power Factor. An analogy; consider timing the ignition spark in a car, gaps between the compression and explosion reduce effectiveness as does gaps between the voltage and amperage.

Furthermore when the PF of one load in a network increases the PF of the total network increases shaving amps across the entire network. Visual analogy, a pool of water filled with rocks, remove the largest rock and the water level across all rocks is reduced.

A real question to ask the salesperson is; how he is creating the reactive energy. There is vast differences in performance when comparing harmonic rectifiers and traditional run capacitors. Does the reactive source have variable potential? Too much capacitive strength is far worse than none at all. Too much will cause leading voltage is generally unwise; it dumps energy and can damage equipment. There are many individuals marketing products who have punted on first down and use prehistoric components to solve a dynamic and complex modern concern.

There are tons of equations and I've had this conversation many times. Determining a return on your investment prior to installation is difficult at best. The billing structure of your utility company will be required. Do you have a "Smart" meter or traditional Edison Watt meter?

Consider being open minded, investigate, calculate and realize there is a difference between the power we buy and the work we buy it for...

In closing I invite you to investigate www.saticusa.com

Best wishes, have a wonderful day!

we don't do sales pitches here but I admit you duped me into looking

I was doing OK on the read until I got to the part about harmonics creating collisions. You lost me there. What collides in electrical conductors? Maybe it was that Google Translator thing or something.

Furthermore, when you state that there is real solid evidence that dirty electricity has adverse physiological impacts on biological lifeforms, your pitch now enters the realm of pure, unadulterated b*llsh*t.

I stopped reading right there. There, now you have been flamed as you expected. The sad part is, there is some truth to the power factor correction, IF your utility is charging you a penalty for PF outside of some range and most factories do benefit with PF correcting capacitors but they are usually implemented at the power entrance.

Happy?

Bravo Sir Robin. If our power factor correction capacitors were outside the service drop, our power meter would not be measuring a pf of 1.00.

I'm thinking about marketing a brand of soap for washing dirty electricity from your skin and hair. I could probably get that into some large stores too!

And I think this must be the first time I have heard of harmonics causing collisions. It's clear to me that the mathematics of the effects of harmonics is algebraic and has nothing to do with collisions.

I'm more concerned with distributed power factor correction setting up a series of resonant tank circuits with poles and zeros too close to each other. Is that a potential concern?

Those collisions are little nuggets of BS ramming into each other at high speed, jostling for the best position from which to say, "Buy me! Buy me!"

Huh? This seems be the source of the power for the "mineral eliminator" I mentioned in #6. I calculated the hypothetical power it used using the formula P=E*I but I keep on getting 0 (zero). That was confirmed with a clamp on amp meter. It did seem to have a slow liquid leak of Serpentes oil.

Good Luck, Old Salt

There is a lot of confused terminology in your post. Not all is wrong, but not much is right, either.

"Consider being open minded, investigate, calculate and realize ..."

'Open-minded' is great, but there still needs to be a gatekeeper on duty because you never know when someone will try to back in their rig and dump their load of garbage into your head, just like you're trying to do here. Too open-minded and your brain falls out when you lean over, you know? Feeling a bit drafty up there, are we?

Just think of all the time wasted by bona fide scientists and engineers engaged in actual discovery and painstaking research when, really, they should've known all along that anything is possible when you need to believe in it badly enough.

An emotional need, not an intellectual one.

There all the same pseudoscience scams that just keep getting reused, sometimes they don't even bother to dress them up differently.

I also count the ones you mention as a scam when the advertising is intentionally misleading regarding the actual savings the customer being targeted would receive.

"I'm thinking there needs to be a new term for the shell game of a presentation that is used to dazzle the customer."

Redfred taught me a pretty good one the other day:

Specmanship: The art of improving the appearance of technical specifications which, once improved, may no longer reflect reality.

This discussion should be in the Electrical board.

Now the question is very simple: Would you save money improving your power factor? If yes, you can think about installing power factor (PF) correction, if not you simply don't care (unless it causes you other problems like overloading your own power distribution infrastructure, especially if you're a MV or HV customer).

I.e. your energy supplier will usually allow some part of reactive power (or more precisely of reactive energy), if you exceed that part (relative to the active energy over the same time) you'll pay for it. So some choose to improve their PF while others prefer paying for the excessive kVarh (also written kVArh or kVARh).

"Can you tell when you are being baffeled with BS?"

Those times I can tell, I can tell. Those times I can't, I can't, so how do I answer your question objectively lol?

I guess it was too general of a question. Perhaps it is all about the presentation. Sometimes it just starts out wrong, like a first impression.

I should have asked something that would have gaged the "to good to be true" detector in people. How do you keep that sensor calibrated?

I was shopping for a window air conditioner once and was browsing the window units at Sears. The regular salesman had gone to lunch and so the guy from the next department was filling-in until he returned.

This guy was a real piece of work and even looked like Schemer on that kids show Thomas the Tank Engine that my kids used to watch when they were little: slicked-back, greasy hair, mismatched polyester suit. I didn't catch any pocket-watches for quick sale pinned to the inside of his jacket but, if I'd had, I wouldn't have been the least bit surprised. Sleaze, Incarnate.

He showed my wife and I a few units and then proudly laid his hand on an Emerson Quiet-Kool unit and announced,

"This one automatically adjusts the temperature so that you're comfortable."

"Truly. How does it know I'm comfortable?"

"It has an automatic sensor."

"Does it. One that is telepathic? I mean, how does it know I'm comfortable or not? What if I'm comfortable but my wife here - who prefers slightly warmer temps - is not? Does it split the difference? What if I think I'm comfortable but really I'm not and only deceiving myself? Does it sift through the noise to get to the bottom of my comfort crisis? What if I'm having a party and everybody has a different comfort level? Does it take an average? This is quite some unit. I'll take it!"

I wanted it anyway but, still, it was fun to see him squirm.

ALL ARE FAKES DONT BE THEIR PREY.

Without theoretical grounds, you and all others mean to say, Power Correction does not at all realistically save energy? How would multi-billion companies like ABB and Square D invest on this kind of products, if PF correction is fake? You mean to say those brands are fake sellers or marketers of this type products? I think there is no logic here.

There is about differences between Techs and Engineers.

I suggest you study and hold your fingers before you write faulty assumptions.

I bought a "Band" Width corrector from this guy.

It worked simply by thinking it worked.

Amazing!

Who was in this "Band"? Fats Domino, go on, give us the "skinny" on this "Band".

Fats never played with that many trombones.

76 trombones?

That's how many trombones Harold Hill claimed would be in the band.

Too bad poor Harold didn't have a Korg Krome 88. He could've made good on his promises.

Wow! again, seriously I got an off topic rate. Why you guys have to blame just because others make Power Factor Correction a scam does it mean generally, all are scam. What the hell, you mean to say all BS Electrical Engineering are scam?

I hope you all get electrocuted mildly by the capacitor banks and realized what is it.

Why did you get an OT?

My guess would be that you did because you're painting us all with a brush so very large that it hides every last detail of what we might have said or meant?

I didn't OT you, btw, just for the record, but feel free to OT me if it makes you feel better.

Yes master.

I voted you off topic because I don't like you.

I would bet money that the small white boxes are nothing more than capacitors in an attempt to improve the Power Factor.

This was done at the site I am currently working at and there was not enough noticeable improvement in system PF to justify the initial cost of procurement and installation labor.

In addition to the little to no cost savings, we have suffered numerous catastrophic failures of the capacitors resulting in loss of critical process equipment, very high repair cost, and increased downtime costs.

We are currently in the costly process of locating and removing all of said devices.

What are your company's chances of litigating for damages?

Lemme guess: Slim to None.

Yep!

Funny thing about being a consumer is; "Buyer Beware"

Many times the abstract, irresponsible decision to purchase the "snake oil" products is dependent on the "hamburger in the pocket" factor (graft ) of vendor monetary kickbacks to people that have little or no knowledge of technology or physics or engineering applications.

This company in the distant past had a competent, fully staffed engineering department that for the most part was capable of controlling these types of mistakes.

However in the 80's the downsizing disease decimated the group and now we have a small group with very few people that have the experience or the needed basic knowledge of engineering principles to effectively manage equipment selection and applications.

The sad thing about this is that many of the available engineering vendors have the same problem and it is getting worse daily as more and more of the older "gurus" are retiring.

Everyone in industry can see this and the overwhelming negative affect that it is having on industry but it does not appear there is anything major being done about it.

Common sense dictates that when any critical employee is scheduled to leave a company, that company's management should have a competent replacement on site and in training for at least one year before the critical employee's last day on the job.

Sorry, rant over.

Yes, some of those boxes only contain capacitors.

Some also contain over-voltage protection. This seems to be a recipe for failure.

As I investigated this, I found that frequently the capacitors burn out. That is simply because this local power factor correction also turned out to be a resonant tank circuit whose voltage (peak to peak) ended up about 10 times larger than the supply voltage. Imagine a factory floor with these devices installed next to every motor. Imagine how much that would cost!

Knowing that the natural frequency of these circuits tends to be between 300 and 15000 Hz, then what you end up with is a field full of "land mines". First one will burn up the capacitors and then another and another (at different times) will burn up. The truth will become evident very quickly if objectivity can be maintained. Good luck with that.