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Global Warming?

01/08/2015 7:21 AM

Today, every body all over the world is telling Global Warming and trying to prove that whatever development activity we do has magnified causes of Global Warming.

I am unable to understand, total thermal cycle of this Globe i.e. the Earth in Space.

As we all know that our earth is a part of solar system, circulating on a fixed trajectory with Sun at its center. Inter-Planetary Space filled with Dark Energy. Thermal cycle of earth has its minima and maxima temperature point within which it traverses during a period of around 365 days x 24 hrs.

Intrinsic thermal energy and extrinsic solar energy in addition to galactic sources of energies are the sources of energy (--Heat--).

Question:

1. May I know as to how is it possible to increase the temperature of the earth, permanently, when it is seating in a sink (Space)?

2. How does the principles of physics & chemistry especially thermodynamics and thermo-chemistry support and prove the theory of Global Warming?

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#1

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 7:28 AM

Have you ever walked into a greenhouse on a sunny day?

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#72
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Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 9:07 AM

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#2

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 7:39 AM

1. Space is not a heat sink, but energy is reradiated off the planet. The problem is basically a function of the total amount of solar energy striking the Earth, plus the sum of energy released on Earth from other sources, minus the amount of energy radiated from the Earth.

However, there are a lot of confounding factors that make the problem nearly impossible to compute - at least at this time with the models we have.

2. It would if we understood all the factors that play a role in the process. However, as I said, we are tying to models something that is extremely complicated and we don't fully understand what all the contributing factors are and to what degree they contribute to the problem.

In a nut shell, this is why the current computer models do not accurately predict what we are observing, but we are continuing to improve our understanding and modify those models. I suspect that it will take at least another decade before we really get a handle on the problem.

However, that doesn't stop people from trying to spread fear about it like it was voodoo.

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#3

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 7:59 AM

I never knew about the heat sink

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#16
In reply to #3

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 9:55 AM

That's because space is not a heat sink, space is a vacuum, which is a thermal INSULATOR.

Remember the Thermos(r) bottle? the inside was all silvery and shiny? What you are seeing is the inside wall of a vacuum bottle, a glass bottle (topologically speaking, it is a hollow sphere with a deep indent, the liquids you pour 'into' the bottle are in the indent, which is 'outside' the bottle. It may sound confusing, but google up a cut-away of a thermos bottle and you'll understand.), silver-plated on the inside, and the air pumped out, creating a vacuum. It keeps your coffee/soup hot or your beverage cold by preventing the three forms of heat transfer:

  • Conduction: Glass is very poor at conducting heat, you can head one end of a glass rod to molten temperatures, yet the other end will still be cool to the touch.
  • Radiation: the silver plating reflects infrared radiation back at the source, preventing the energy/heat from passing through the bottle wall.
  • Convection: (This is the important one for this discussion) The vacuum in the bottle prevents the air outside the bottle from contacting the air or liquid inside the bottle, and prevents the air from touching the 'inside wall' of the bottle, so there is no heat transfer between the air and the thermos's contents.

One thing people fail to realize about space suits is that the innermost layer, the part that comes right of to the astronauts Fruit of the Looms, is a COOLING suit. On earth we are all walking around inside our own personal 'heat plumes' as the air in contact with our bodies warms up, rises and is replaced by cooler air from below. (This is also the reason for the 'Wind Chill' factor, we feel colder on windy days in winter because the wind is 'peeling away' our heat plumes, leaving us exposed to the actual air temperatures rather than the 'moderated' air temperatures we normally feel. It's also why a breeze, ANY breeze feels good on hot days, even if we're not sweating. In warmer weather our heat plumes work against us, keeping our heads wrapped up in air that's already been heated up by our legs and torsos. It also explains why lying down in hot weather helps: when we're horizontal, we're not using the 'waste heat' from our bodies to warm up our heads.)

I would recommend that the OP pick up a High School General Science book and read through it. But NOT one of the books that spends a lot of time talking about the 'alternate theories' to Evolution.Those books will likely be skewing the other science points to confuse people rather than educate. Climate change deniers LIVE to spread confusion, it's the only way they can get their message heard with 'equal weight' to the the scientific community that is saying "the planet is warming, we're not sure of ALL the causes, but we're reasonably confident that human activity is a significant factor."

Climate change deniers are like a bus driver careening down a mountain path like he' late for work, and wanting to debate about how steep the bend is on Dead man's Curve, or even if it's curved at all, when he could just take his foot off the gas pedal.

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#18
In reply to #16

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 10:13 AM

looks like you can put me in your deny camp"

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#32
In reply to #16

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:03 PM

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2015/01/06/97-of-climate-scientists-agree-is-100-wrong/

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#36
In reply to #32

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:11 PM

Why would I go to a financial magazine to get information on science? Do I go to a botanist to get information on the Bonds market?

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#39
In reply to #36

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:50 PM

http://nypost.com/2015/01/08/the-lessons-of-climate-change-past/

Here is another one.

You can pick and choose what you want to accept. You've picked a side and choose to only accept information that agrees with your point of view. Even if I'd pulled either of these articles from a Science Magazine, you'd find something to be in disagreement with it.

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#47
In reply to #39

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:10 PM

I just consider Forbes, a magazine for 'people who like to think they are rich,'tends to bias their articles to show anything that is turning a profit as 'good for the bottom line, therefore good for the world.'

And I'm not saying "Conservation or DIE, Capitalist pig-dogs!" I'm saying "Let's just give Conservation it an honest try and see how things look after 5-10 years."

Is this really such a hot-button topic that we can't just talk rationally about setting up an experiment about it? Everyone argues about the data, the Deniers point to the Little Ice Age in the Late Medieval period as 'proof' that warming and cooling are 'just cycles,' while the 'Warmers' point out that the Little Ice Age came LATE for the cycle, and wasn't as strong as models say it should have been, pointing out the change from the Medieval Warm Period to the Little Ice Age coincided with the Black Death, and the 'sudden' reverting of so much tilled farmland into fallow fields. Claiming that as 'proof' that Europe was holding off a cooling cycle, changing the climate, until so many died off that we 'weren't strong enough to hold back nature' any more. Everyone argues, but so few are willing to try and TEST the theories, and these tests, because we don't have a 'mini-earth' to play with, have to be done large-scale, which means we need practically EVERYONE in the 'testing zone' to work together on this.

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#51
In reply to #47

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:39 PM

"The Deniers point to the Little Ice Age in the Late Medieval period as 'proof' that warming and cooling are 'just cycles"

I've never heard us skeptics point to the Medieval warm period as proof of warming and cooling cycles. The cycles can be seen many times over going back in history long before mankind was on the planet.

What I see skeptics mentioning the Medieval warm period for is to point out how illegitimate the hockey stick graph was and how misleading the AGW crowd have been to further their cause of shutting down western society.

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#52
In reply to #47

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:57 PM

"which means we need practically EVERYONE in the 'testing zone' to work together on this."

Convince me, without telling me how many scientists supposedly think its a good thing, and without calling me names, or telling me I have to believe in your God of evolution, that I should suffer and freeze, or pay higher prices than I can afford on a fixed income, or find some other way to change my life (I live quietly, with my wife, and my kids and grandkids. I'm not a partier, nor a jet-setter, like all the fat-cats who stand to make so much money of OUR reduction carbon-emissions, while they fly around in their oh-so-polluting jet planes) to fund the "necessary" (your implied words, not mine) global experiment for the next 5-10 years (again, your time frame, not mine).

But I don't see what I even have available to give up, let alone want to be forced to give it up. Leave it to my choice, and let me decide whether I want to satisfy YOUR curiousity. The problem I have with your concept of a global experiment in which we all have to pull together is that people who push it do so by demanding LAWS be made to FORCE the rest of us to bend to YOUR favorite view.

We have choice. Convince us, without calling us names, and even those among us who believe in the Creator, and can't find the faith in ourselves (and believe me, as a scientist, and science teacher, a Science Fair Competition Judge of over 25 years experience, and a believer in SCIENCE, as opposed to what passes for it nowadays, driven by money and politics, I find it MUCH easier to believe in a one-shot, 6 day creation, which, by definition, is a miracle, than in a multi-billion year evolution, which, if it were true, would be just as miraculous, but require a much longer suspension of all natural laws) to believe in an evolution just happened, despite laws such as conservation of energy, and entropy, might surprise you by joining you in your experiment. Just give us the respect you demand, and the freedom to analyze intelligently and make up our own minds. The convince us by scientific analysis that we should.

But calling me a denier, or telling me that I have to read the textbooks YOU choose (both in your first post in this thread, sir, so please don't insult me further by saying YOU aren't stooping to name-calling) won't do it. I demand that you treat ME, and all who believe as I do (or indeed, who choose NOT to believe in any way similar, but demand the freedom to believe anything they wish) with the same respect YOU demand I give you. And the same respect I have given you. After all, I don't believe as you do, but I have no need to call you names, or deny your right to speak of your beliefs, in order to engage in social and meaningful discourse with you. Please treat me and all others the same way.

But don't demand that we join in your experiment simply because you think it would be a good idea, unless you want to fund our lives in such a way that YOU absord all cost offsets occurring because of the experiment. I'll suffer for my own curiousity, thank you. But not for your curiousity, nor for the enrichment of Al Gore, or George Soros (et al).

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#53
In reply to #47

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 2:26 PM

I admire your passion. I'm a man of science. the JUNK SCIENCE you base your opinion on is a mantra of skewed fact. I will not berate or demean you but I suggest you listen to less activists and politicians and open your mind to scientists without an axe to grind or new tax proposal

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#76
In reply to #47

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 1:01 PM

""Is this really such a hot-button topic that we can't just talk rationally about setting up an experiment about it? " The experiment proposed by the president has already been performed. During the Great Depression fossil fuel use, mainly coal, decreased by about 30%. This was the period of greatest rate of global warming! Those who repeat an experiment, expecting a different result, are insane, we are told.

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#79
In reply to #76

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 1:10 PM

The "Great Depression" could not possibly have influenced global climates and certainly not global warming!

It may have reduced air pollution, but that's all.

Think about it.

20 years out of 6,000,000,000 hardly can change anything.

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#82
In reply to #79

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 2:54 PM

Just to pick a nit with you not to argue against your over all point....the Great Depression was not 20 years.

The GD began 1929. The US was coming out of the GD or brought out of it by WWII which was 1941 (when the US officially entered). By my non-calculator calculating, that's only 12 years.

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#84
In reply to #82

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 4:10 PM

20/6,000,000,000

12/6,000,000,000

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#80
In reply to #76

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 2:25 PM

Now there is a good post: (1)Propose exactly what someone else "in power" has suggested, (2) demonstrate that the proposed idea has already been tested, and (3)demonstrate that the sought after outcome of the "agenda" crowd has already been disproven in spades, and (4) reveal the insanity of it all.

Great job!!!

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#81
In reply to #80

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 2:38 PM

Anybody can type words.

Does he have any data to back up his baseless claims?

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#83
In reply to #76

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 3:01 PM

A desired goal of any experiment should be that it is repeatable. If it's not repeatable, then something was either done improperly or the parameters involved are not completely understood.

I'm not in favor of redoing the experiment you mention, however, I don't even consider it an experiment. Yes, there's history there we should not ignore, but at the time, no one set out to do an experiment demonstrating that reduction in carbon results in cooling.

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#34
In reply to #16

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:06 PM

High School...isn't that where science classes end, and brain-washing begins.

Don't tell me you are a KOOL-AID drinking commie pinko! The founder of GreenPeace has come out and said that Global Warming is a hoax, at least of the same magnitude as "BigFoot", and "Ancient Aliens". If someone repeats something to you over and over, then you start nodding and thinking it to be true, that just means you went into resonance with the speaker, not that anything being stated is true.

NO ONE understands Global Warming. It is nothing but the latest phony religion. Just ask Al Gore - I can almost see him standing behind his pulpit on his soap box screaming, and about to pop a vessel in his cranium, "You gotta believe!" "Believe!" Well sir, no I don't gotta believe, and I can see a huxster from a mile away.

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#37
In reply to #34

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:39 PM

"Don't tell me you are a KOOL-AID drinking commie pinko!"

Oh, we're going to childish name-calling now?

If I'm a 'commie pinko' then you must be ... (give me a moment to get my notes straight.) ... a soulless corporate shill who worships Goron Geko, Milken, and Ponzi, and who would sell his own mother, sister, AND daughter into prostitution if he could turn more of a profit there then selling their organs on the black market. Someone who, despite being soulless as previously stated, thumps Bibles and claims to speak for the LAWD-A'MITEY when justifying the oppression of women and minorities, someone who spreads McCarthy-era fear and hate around to control the 'ignorant masses' and keep them distrustful science and anything with the word 'social' in its name.

How was that, was it childish enough?

It's pretty clear that I lean towards the Liberal camp and you're pretty well entrenched in the Conservative one. The Conservatives tend to be right some of the time, just as the liberals are right some of the time. The demagogues of both camps, however, are idiots who are both wrong most of the time because they're too busy spouting anti-the-other-side dogma and rhetoric to even look at the platforms they're arguing about.

(Self-marking as OT for being WAY more political than I like.)

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#40
In reply to #37

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:52 PM

Let me give you this blessing: I hope you do not pop too many blood vessels in your cranium over this nonsense.

I am astonished you did not deny "drinking the KOOL-AID". Where are the flooded port cities we were told about in high screwel? Where are all the drowned polar bears? Where is the total and complete shut-down of the oceanic thermal conveyor belt? Beyond that where are all the oceanic temperature sensors that (a) did not work in the first place, and (b) the "scientists" filled in the gaps with sensors that never existed in the first place from (a). If that is what passes for science, then I think I will just twist off and go get drunk for about twenty years.

You really hurt my feelings, and you owe me one. I am nobody's shill, and you really should look up the definition of that word. If I were a schill, you should not look over your shoulder at any time soon. I am someone who is really tired of being spoon-fed half-truths, and downright lies as though these were anything related to the truth.

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#44
In reply to #40

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:03 PM

Let's not forget the poles are growing and the ice is getting denser. It's like all that information out there going in that direction, the global warming promoters' eyes just glaze over and skip it.

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#49
In reply to #44

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:30 PM

I have a friend who lives in a valley outside Fairbanks, AK. His house is about three miles from the face of a glacier. He and his wife have lived there for 24 years. 24 years ago the glacier was about 1/2 a mile further AWAY from them than it is now, the way around it heading "up glacier", so to speak, was about a mile wide on each side. Now? It's a passage on either side of only about 300 feet, with most of the remaining space taken up with huge boulders which have fallen (calved) from the sides of the ever-expanding glacier. And the upper end, away from his house, is still firmly anchored to the mountain face from which it extends. So, not knowing all this, I asked him about glacier shrink as part of global warming.

Funny. He's usually WAY too polite to horse-laugh his house guests.

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#54
In reply to #40

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 2:34 PM

Well, I am equally tired of being accused of being a 'Card Carrying Bleeding-Heart Liberal,' (for one thing, I am a firm believer in the Second Amendment and the right it gives The People to have privately-owned firearms, a stance that gets most Democrats to recoil from me as if I were the love child of Rush and Rove in their eyes), and the assumption that all people with liberal thinking are Communists (I was half expecting you to call me a 'Commie Fascist' even though those two political ideas are mutually exclusive).

I can see now how I over-reacted, you gave me a one-line name-calling, and in response, I took my notebook of 'bad things Democrats say about Republicans' and shook it out over the keyboard, giving you a paragraph of name-calling in return. That was going too far, and I should have reined in my 'response to being bullied' reflex better.

I'd send you a six-pack by way of apology, except A) I don't know your brand, B) I don't know your mailing address, and C) I think it might be illegal for private citizens to ship alcohol across state lines through the USPS. The best I can do is grovel (as much as can be done with a keyboard) and promise that I will not respond with such venom again.

You are an intelligent person, I know this from following your posts here on this site, and it shames me to have hurt you so. (sheepish half-smirk, half-frown) Heh, now you know why I try to stay out of political discussions, my blood gets 'angried up' way too fast.

In time, hopefully we can put this bit of unpleasantness behind us, and I can make amends for my ill-chosen words.

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#75
In reply to #54

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 12:52 PM

Apology accepted as you accept mine. I over-reacted a bit myself. I really am a lot more worried by UN Agenda 21 that any American messing up my freedom. It is the UN we should all be wary of.

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#63
In reply to #16

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 6:31 PM

Google 'fears of global warming were greatly exaggerated.

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#31
In reply to #3

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:00 PM

That heat sink is a good place to wash hands in winter!

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#57
In reply to #3

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 3:48 PM

But I do know about the hot tub

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#58
In reply to #57

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 3:51 PM

what happens in the hot tub stays in the hot tub

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#60
In reply to #58

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 3:57 PM

Just relaxing sore, stiff muscles after a long day of skiing of course.

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#62
In reply to #3

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 6:24 PM

Now that it is identified, KrisDel industries can destroy it with their sink buster. Or can they?

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#4

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 8:01 AM

The hotter an object is, the more heat it radiates.

An object receiving energy will heat up until the radiates as much energy as it is receiving.

If an object is less efficent at radiating heat (e.g. greenhouse), it will have to be hotter to radiate as much energy as it is receiving.

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#5

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 8:07 AM

The author of this article in Forbes makes an interesting point:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexepstein/2015/01/06/97-of-climate-scientists-agree-is-100-wrong/

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#33
In reply to #5

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:04 PM

I thought I was the first one to have that article. I just posted it again.

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#6

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 8:31 AM

One of the reasons that 'global warming' has seemed so scary was that, at one time, scientists thought that the high temperature of Venus was due to a 'runaway greenhouse effect' due to its CO2 atmosphere. More recent data shows that this is not the cause of the high temperatures on Venus. I.e., the high temperature of Venus is NOT caused by the fact that the atmosphere of Venus is almost 100% CO2, but rather the fact that the atmospheric pressure of the CO2 on Venus is very high.

Despite this new understanding, some people continue to cling to the idea of a 'runaway greenhouse effect' as a means to scare people into accepting the notion of catastrophic global warming.

Here's a fairly easy to read paper that runs the numbers:

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/GWvenus.htm

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#88
In reply to #6

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 8:15 PM

Agreed. It's easy to scare people with the high surface temperature of Venus. But every engineer knows that if you compress a gas, it gets hotter, and if you reduce the pressure it gets colder. So if the atmosphere of Venus circulates, the high surface temperature is mostly due to compression and not due to the "greenhouse" effect.

It's why mountains on Earth have snow on top.

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#89
In reply to #88

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 11:10 PM

"It's why mountains on Earth have snow on top."

Yeah. That and the fact that it's colder up ther .... Oh, wait (slaps forehead), that's what you just said, isn't it?

Duh. What, not greenhouse gases? And no lasting Ozone hole? My fondest fantasies, shot to ribbons, in one post.

Too bad explaining science doesn't work on Al Gore, George Soros, et al. Nor the "man in the street".

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#90
In reply to #88

Re: Global Warming?

01/11/2015 4:21 AM

Sorry to ruin another bogus theory, but my argon container at 160 bar is very cold. You know, compression "generates" heat only ONCE. At the time of the compression. It does not produce heat to... keep. The system there would have come to a thermal equilibrium long ago if compression were the reason of high temperature. Friction, yes. If there's more friction on a thicker atmosphere, subjected to seriously more gravity or otherwise induced moving than we experience on earth, yes that could give some temperature increase. But I feel that factors like Venus surface... color (that has effect on thermal radiation/absorption) has more contribution to high Venus atmosphere temperature than other known factors. But until we have definite data of temperature vs depth on Venus crust, I'll keep my expectations low. S.M.

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#91
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Re: Global Warming?

01/11/2015 11:58 AM

Your container of compressed argon heated up when it was compressed, and then the heat was removed (dissipated) to the surrounding atmosphere.

Consider a packet of air in the upper atmosphere of Venus. As it moves down, it is compressed and heated, but it can't cool off again because the surrounding atmosphere is the same temperature. It's as if it were perfectly insulated because no heat will flow without a temperature difference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_process

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#92
In reply to #91

Re: Global Warming?

01/11/2015 1:59 PM

A planet's atmosphere is not perfectly isolated from its ground, plus all matter, including gases, also exchange heat by radiation. You don't need convection (conduction or advection) for that. Now don't take it personally. We are all bombarded with erroneous, incomplete of fraudulent data all the time, and according to my dark, conspiracy-like, latest beliefs, for a reason.(LOL) S.M.

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#7

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 11:37 AM

Global warming is a fact. It is occurring right now, and has occurred in the past.

It will continue to happen until global cooling begins, again.

This cycle has been occurring for billions of years.

It's a big deal now, because records have been kept long enough for man to realize that the earth gets hotter and then it gets cooler.

NOTHING man does will ever change that cycle enough for our instruments to measure.

Relax, forget about it and get on with your life.

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#41
In reply to #7

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:58 PM

Global warming sure isn't happening enough lately where I live, but there again every winter is about the same here. Cold, followed by calm sunny afternoon, followed by a blue norther.

We are all still alive so far, and that is a good thing. I will look forward to some more global warming every day when the sun comes out.

I am all for anything that creates more jobs than it destroys. The problem with some folks is they want to starve us out in the cold (or heat), in order to "save the planet". What the hell are you going to save the planet for if no one survives your cure?

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#8

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 11:52 AM

Well the CO2 levels in the atmosphere have risen to high levels and this started speculation on causes and effects...Everything is always changing and the puzzle has countless pieces, so there is many opinions ranging from one extreme to the other...One thing we can measure is the effects and changes taking place....

http://www.epa.gov/climatestudents/impacts/signs/glaciers.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850

As we gather more data and develop more sophisticated models, some day we might figure it all out....We know our existence here is by chance and precarious, let's hope we can stay one step ahead of whatever would destroy us....

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#9
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Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 12:13 PM

As CO2 levels rise, the greenies as well flourished.

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#48
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:30 PM

Please read some Geologic Journals that show the increase and decrease of Glaciers over the longer periods of time. The Glaciers were all the way down into Nebraska. They are no longer there. Must be they retreated…or something…. CO2 concentrations were higher during this period of thick glaciation. Please read some Geologic History, look at the Volstok Ice Core info, and get some different viewpoints. The retreat from hot to cold has actually occurred in a period of 3 years of less, as verified by the algae traces, dust samples, tree rings and ice cores. THREE years is a very short period of time. Now data is coming out that suggest the Mayan culture may have gone by the wayside due to a multi year drought. Now, that is climate change , or a long term weather cycle due to the moisture pattens at the Tropical latitudes being disrupted for a very long period of time. We tend to think that temperature keeping records of 100 years really mean something in the overall trend of the Planet. Satellite data has only existed for really 30 years or so. How do you compare this data to Geologic data that has existed for many millions of years? According to many of the "Unreported " Scientists, get ready for the Big Chill, which will do more damage than any amount of "Global Warming"...

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#50
In reply to #48

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:37 PM

because..........you can't tax a glacier but if convince people the world will end unless you tax the most basic element, carbon then you justify your position.

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#10

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 1:36 PM

its all a crock!

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#14
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 8:36 AM

No - it is not all a crock - see Lyn's post above. The Earth goes through repeated heating/cooling cycles and we are now in a heating cycle. That is a fact.

The thing that bothers me most about it is the crying over species that will be lost. Guess what? We've lost millions upon millions of species since the dawn of life. Some species becomes non-competitive and a new one arises. That's life on Earth. Who made us the protector of species that can not survive? Hey, we could bring back the dinosaur? Should we do that?

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#17
In reply to #14

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 10:06 AM

"The thing that bothers me most about it is the crying over species that will be lost."

You ever listen to the subtext of all that crying? There's one species in particular that the the Global Warming community is concerned about losing. You may even have heard of it:

Homo Sapiens.

It's not about saving the Ice Caps, or the Polar Bear, or the Rain Forrests.

It's about saving OUR OWN KEISTERS! The 'hippie' keisters, the 'fat cat' keisters, your keister, my keister, the keisters of generations of H. Sapiens to come. I don't know if you care about your own keister, but I happen to like mine (even though it could be a bit more toned, but that's beside the point), and I'd like to keep it on this planet for as long as possible.

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#21
In reply to #17

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 10:24 AM

Really???? We've proven to be the most adaptable advanced life form on the planet. Yeah, single cell life forms beat us at adaptability, but not mammals or reptiles. We engineer the ways to survive and do just fine. We have people living in arctic barrens and in deserts now.

Don't see that much danger mentioned for us, unless we just sit and do nothing. (this is the basic premise of the disaster folks - show what happens without human change of life style - don't even mention adapting to the changes)

The seas rise - so we move inland. The storms get more severe - so again we move where they are less, because there will be areas of decreased storms as well. Large areas of drought appear - guess what - warming will also create new areas of rain forests. Northern Canada can become the new "bread basket". Again we move to these areas. I think we've done this before and can do that again. Cows can't survive - we learn to eat lizards and gators that will flourish. And so on, and so on.....

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#27
In reply to #21

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 11:29 AM

"We engineer the ways to survive and do just fine."

So why not try to engineer ways to keep the global climate where we like it? Wouldn't that be the pinnacle of Man's Dominance over Nature: to tell the World what the climate will be, instead of going back to a 'pseudo-nomadic' lifestyle, chasing(1) after the arable land?

Notes:

1) The speed of the 'chase' would be slow, like how the glaciers 'raced' South, and the Hickory trees were 'running' ahead of the ice walls to warmer climates. However, in the Old World, the trees 'ran into' the mountain ranges and were trapped, while in America, the mountain ranges were 'set up the right way' and the Hickory was able to 'winter out' the Ice Age down by the Gulf.

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#28
In reply to #27

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 11:35 AM

Yes but now we are back to the question of is this a normal earth cycle or a man made one. Seems foolish to run energy costs way up if it has no real benefits to anyone except those who develop and sell the newer higher priced energy. Is it easier to hate Big Oil, than Big Solar, or Big Wind, or whatever? A drastic sudden change is going to make some few very rich and most very poor.

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#30
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 11:59 AM

"A drastic sudden change is going to make some few very rich and most very poor."

That's what we have on this planet right now: a very few that are very rich, and most are poor to very poor. The only losers in this scenario are the few of the very rich who will end up poor. A few poor will become rich, but most will stay the same.

And before you go thinking I hate Big Oil simply because they're Big Oil, my JOB depends on them. I work in plastics, so we need oil as the feedstock to make the polymers we use. That's why I'm against Big Oil's quashing of alternate energy: the less oil we burn for fuel, the more we'll have for feedstock supply.

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#46
In reply to #27

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:09 PM

"the pinnacle of Man's Dominance over Nature"

Or a display of pure and unmitigated arrogance against the Creator of it all, while worshiping and serving the Creation!

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#59
In reply to #17

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 3:56 PM

So what? What makes US so important?

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#104
In reply to #17

Re: Global Warming?

01/13/2015 10:35 AM

What makes you think we are so special. Maybe just maybe Homo Sapiens is not to be a part of the future.

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#105
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Re: Global Warming?

01/13/2015 2:50 PM

If we keep doing what we're doing now and if we keep doing what we've always done, That practically assures that Homo Sapiens will not be a part of the future.

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#106
In reply to #105

Re: Global Warming?

01/13/2015 2:57 PM

or not......

interesting to know that it wouldn't be the first time Homo Sapiens had a near brush with extinction.

statistically, no matter what you do, someday they just may get it right.

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#107
In reply to #105

Re: Global Warming?

01/13/2015 6:02 PM

Hey, it's worked so far!

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#11

Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 3:01 PM

Strange, I watched the Bell Science Series episode "Our Mr. Sun" in high school and there was no mention of "Global Warming". But then, we didn't have air conditioning which removed heat from inside the building and put it out side to be added to the heat produced by power plants among other devices consuming fossil fuels.

Another contributor is the use of italicized capital letters.

A benefit of this is a good day at the beach.

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#12
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Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 3:57 PM
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#13
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Re: Global Warming?

01/08/2015 4:59 PM

Man, what a time machine! Complete with scratches. Thanks Solar!

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#15

Global Warming?

01/09/2015 8:51 AM

Lets look at what has happened in the last 100 years.

  • Most buildings have air conditioning pushing out hot air.
  • We have a huge increase in inefficient power stations to accommodate this and increased industry - more heat.
  • Many more buildings and roads to absorb and store heat.
  • In the centre of this heat mass are thermometers telling us there is an increase in temperature. DAH!

And it's only 1 degree (or 2 in the US), I think we are doing very well to contain it to that!

Tony

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#19

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 10:15 AM

Just read an article yesterday, that from Satellite measurement, the primary source of carbon dioxide production into the atmosphere is coming from the compost on the rain forest floor in South America.

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#20
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 10:23 AM

I'm sure Al Gore will want to tax that too

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#64
In reply to #19

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 6:55 PM

Algae is up there also, and so is decomposition of Permafrost…Not to mention those┬┤pesky farts...

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#95
In reply to #64

Re: Global Warming?

01/12/2015 10:13 AM

I think we should apply for a grant to study the effects of human farts on the ozone.

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#96
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Re: Global Warming?

01/12/2015 10:16 AM

That idea stinks!

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#97
In reply to #95

Re: Global Warming?

01/12/2015 10:23 AM

all kidding aside, I've posted this before... if you aren't interested in taking sides but are interested in science and facts instead of individual opinion. here you'll find some real answershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqVE-uiHs7w enjoy

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#98
In reply to #95

Re: Global Warming?

01/12/2015 10:35 AM

If Dupont held the patent for the composition of human farts, you could probably get your grant.The study could be used to outlaw current farts when their patent runs out. The new government mandated farts will be more flammable though.

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#22

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 10:56 AM

This is an Engineering forum, so let's look at this situation logically. I'm sure many of you are familiar with Game Theory (or if you aren't, you can look it up on wikipedia), a/d or you're familiar with digital logic 'truth tables' (Showing the outputs for a specified set of inputs) and Karnough Maps (a version of a truth tale where the inputs are along the side and top, with the outputs inside the grid).

Let is consider the two main variables in The Great Global Warming Debate:

  • Global Warming is affected by human activity -vs- Global Warming is NOT affected by human activity.
  • Humans should try to reduce their effect on Global Warming -vs- Humans should NOT try to reduce their effect on Global Warming.

Now let us build the Game Theory Chart. It looks like a Karnov Map, with the 'output' inside the grid:

H = Human Activity affects Global Warming

h = Human Activity does NOT affect Global Warming

R = Humans try to reduce effect on Global Warming

r = Humans do NOT try to reduce effect on Global Warming

\|H|h

R|A|B

r|B|B

Results:

A = Global Warming is reduced

B = Global Warming is NOT reduced.

So from here we can see that if we try to reduce emissions, recycle more, etc, we MAY 'save the planet' (aka, save our own keisters) and we may not, but if we just keep on with the status quo, we're DEFINITELY going to be screwed.

So, I ask, why NOT act as if our activities can affect Global Warming and do what we can to try and reduce it? What's the worst that can happen following that route? We waste time and energy on something we can't change? So what? A person neck deep in the ovean, with nothing but water to every horizon, is still going to splash and fight for every breath, even though he knows he's going to drown before the sun sets. It's in our NATURE to 'waste time and energy' fighting for survival. There's an old saying I heard, "If you find yourself falling off a cliff, flap your arms and try to fly. It can't make things worse, and you just might find out you CAN fly."

The only reason I can think of to be so adamant on denying the human factor in Climate Change/Global Warming is a link to Big Oil/Big Coal, and not caring about the future, only about short-term profits. This planet does not NEED or WANT more Gordon Gekos, we have way too many as is.

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#24
In reply to #22

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 11:04 AM

we could do just fine with a few less Chicken Littles

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#26
In reply to #22

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 11:21 AM

How about the effect on humans from trying to go to non-fossil fuel based energy sources? I've never seen that scenario examined closely. Just as the warming theorists have their doomsday scenario, I think I can construct a similar one for trying to go to non-fossil fuels quickly.

Right now we have a reasonably cheap source of energy that most can afford. (I really like $2.50/gallon gasoline) You want to change that scenario so that the poorest countries get even poorer as they can't afford to build the latest "green" energy source, and the fossil fuels are not so readily available anymore? Yes, at first, if the major economic power countries switched suddenly away from fossil fuels, they would become cheap. But as refineries shut down, the price of useable fossil fuels (refined) would sky rocket, via the supply/demand equation. Then there are the income fixed elderly, and welfare recipients in the the major economic power countries - think they want to suddenly have to start paying much more just to heat their houses? Ever consider what going to solar/wind/wave/whatever energy source everywhere and suddenly would do to the cost of living? I think that scenario is about as bad as the global warming theory. Major wars, rebellions, starvation.....

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#29
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 11:51 AM

If the major economic countries switched away from fossil fuels, the refineries wouldn't 'shut down,' they'd keep running, selling the refined fuel to the smaller countries that still use it. It's cheaper to ship refined fuel than to build a new refinery. (Plus the US has laws banning the export of 'crude oil,' it HAS to be refined to a certain level before it's sent out.) You think ExxonMobil is just going to say "Oh well, America's not using oil anymore, time to shut the doors and tun off the lights, we're out of business."? No, if there's money to be made, you can bet the corporations well be there, making sure they get their share, and half of their neighbor's share as well.

I'd LOVE to see more alternate energy sources examined, solar, wind, tidal, geothermal, Liquid Fluorine Thorium Reactors. There are many options, but it seems like Congress can't get permission from their corporate masters agree on a budget that would allow for serious R&D on these fields, and it's almost impossible to get the venture capital to develop these fields in the private sector, when it's questionable whether or not a particular major project will be able to turn a profit quickly enough to justify the investment.

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#35
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:07 PM

Yes, they will shut down many refineries if suddenly the demand drops more than 50%. They know supply and demand in the oil industry quite well. The price for much less refined fuel will skyrocket - the Exxon Mobiles of the world will see to it.
Those 50 plus year old plants in the Northeast will be gone very quickly.

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#38
In reply to #35

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 12:47 PM

So why didn't they shut refineries down NOW, so they could keep gasoline at $4+ a gallon? They could claim that the refineries need to go down 'for scheduled maintenance' and choke us down to the rationing of the Oil Embargo of the early 80's.

What's to keep them from telling us "You'll pay twenty bucks a gallon and like it!" today? They're Big Oil, they can weather a little time of 'reduced profits (and since it also includes reduced payroll/operating costs from the shuttered refineries, they may even break even for the Fiscal Quarter instead of showing a loss), while we'll be crawling in the mud and groveling for 'just a little fuel, it' so cold here, so ... cold...'

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#43
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:03 PM

They have greatly reduced the "oil patch" work force already. I know plenty of oil field hands who've been laid off in NW Pa. No drilling for the near future and many wells shut in. Refineries don't have to shut down - they cut back production while the ones shut down are in the field. Bleak times ahead for this corner of the state for a while.

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#45
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:04 PM

Are you serious? You are afraid of CO2 and F2? wow.

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#42
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 1:02 PM

Wonderful thoughts, but not grounded in reality.

This discussion has been beat ad nausium and unless there is some breaking news that changes things significantly it is just a shouting match with no resolutions.

If you don't believe that, just look at all of the historical discussion on the subject on CR4.

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#61
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 4:02 PM

Amen. So we will just have to wait because nobody gets off this merry-go-round alive.

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#23

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 10:58 AM

There is thermo nuclear activity all over the earth, and has been for 4.5 B years. This is in the form of fission AND fusion (via LENR sub-atomic chemistry). This will provide energy for another few billion years.

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#25

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 11:10 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9igjsojobNE this pretty much covers my view

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#78
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Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 1:05 PM

After all we all just here for a little while, contributing to the effort to make plastic for Mother Earth.

I am actually storing up plastic bags, so that my bones can be buried with them.

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#85
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Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 6:50 PM

That's the idea. But George still believes (or doesn't say otherwise for a reason) that all this, and the "industry" behind it, is just based on innocent mistakes. My opinion is that it is based on 100% scam, it's just that many people's good feelings are shamelessly exploited, with support from totally fake "science". I have no problem about naive people believing something in "error", it happened again and again in human history, but having scum victims helping the scums themselves to enforce their idea fascism just to thicken their wallets is not something I can cope with. Who said that in info age we 'd have less real info issues? S.M.

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#55

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 2:52 PM

For the sake of my sanity (and what remains of the things that pass for 'friendships' here on a semi-annonymous message board) I'm going to bow out of this. It's getting way to political, people are starting to wear their party affiliations on their sleeves and line up like the Jets and the Sharks (go see West Side Story if you don't get that reference) and I've already let myself get so caught up in the argument I ended up making an ad hominim attack on a person I respect, the fact that it was in response to an ad hominim from him nonwithstanding.

This will be my last post in this thread before unsubscribing, and I will not be replying to any replies to this. If there is anyone here who I may have offended and not yet apologized to, I am sorry.

(*grumble* This is why I hate politics, brings out the fanatics in too many people: can't change their mind and won't change the subject.)

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#56
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 3:47 PM
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#65

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 7:42 PM

I have been surprised at the n and status of the denyers. It also surprises me that the word believe/belief comes up so often. It seems that science is now a religion with many sects within.

I am not a scientist but I do know that there are 10's of thousands of scientists in almost every field that have reported changes that are disturbing to them. As good scientists they have formulated theories to explain the observations and OTHER scientists have tested their theories. The results have led an ever widening net of scientists to state that human activity is having a deleterious effect on the planet and it's organisms. Where this will ultimately lead is unknown and indeed this where I think the believe/deny debate thrives. A lot of the scare mongering was purely to get funding for further research, after all the scientists and universities want to be fed. This did a lot of damage to the credibility of scientists in general as the forecast theoretical disasters could be easily counter theorized. As a simple example;- "the polar caps will melt causing the oceans to rise" can be countered with the equally sensational;- "all of the UK and western Europe will be covered with 3Km of ice" I would argue that one will counter act the other. The end result would be that we have more English here in Oz, For that reason alone I implore you to act now to prevent any worsening of the effects of GW. :-)

The hole in the Ozone layer is a forgotten example of how human activity DID affect the climate and equally of how Gov't regulation DID help repair the damage. I am sure fishermen the world over could tell of change in their own lifetime as testament to just how much the activity of man can alter the planet. Of course the planet itself can do far more damage to man in a far shorter time, Tsunami, hurricane, volcanoes etc. but do we need to retaliate?

Jim

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#66
In reply to #65

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 8:05 PM

I see you enjoy a glass of Koolaid from time to time.this forum hits this topic every month or two. people get passionate. some even leave! I don't think most people that have looked into it feel that humans are completely free of adding to some warming by burning all the things we emit. for me its the overblown claims that are designed to scare.our pal AL gore has been a highly visible cheerleader for your cause. Al famously made the claim, "all the sea ice will be gone by 2015". about a month ago I posted satellite data showing record thickness for sea Ice in Antarctica this year.weather is extremely complex science. no one has it down just yet but those with "end of life as we know it"predictions always turn out to be far from accurate.

so yes humans have some culpability but CO2 and this planet have coexisted for millions of years. relax

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#68
In reply to #66

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 10:52 PM

I am afraid the reference to Koolaid is lost on me. A regional joke perhaps? Speaking of regional jokes, my comment about not wanting more English migrants is a long standing joke/feud. I expected a comment from t'other side of pond. Still to come perhaps?

As for over stated claims; it seems to me that it is almost necessary to get things started. Biomedical engineering got started by someone claiming that doctors and nurses were accidentally killing hundreds due to poorly earthed bed lights and other equipment. The hugely expensive London sewers were built to prevent illness caused by the miasma. In both instances good things resulted. New energy technologies will eventually be needed so why not start now? Your politicians don't have a monopoly on dumb mouth syndrome, we have a few of our own.

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#70
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 11:21 PM

The term refers to people who have been "brainwashed" by fanatics.

Jim Jones - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


It has come to be used as a derogatory term for people who do not share your view on issues such as global warming, or other political disagreements/issues.

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#86
In reply to #70

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 7:15 PM

Thanks for the link. It beggars belief that so many people would willingly drink their Kool Aid. Using the term does provide a glimpse into the mind set of the accuser. They are arguing that I am mindlessly following the throng but they are not seeing that the throng is in the majority for a reason. "Like lemmings" is a term I like. I like it because lemmings don't jump off cliffs at all. They were pushed to destruction by more powerful forces for a reason that involved money and fame. Being frightened into moving into a life and death situation! Sound familiar? Some sort of 'bogey man' comes around at every election, that is when you see the lemmings.

I'm starting to rant...

Jim

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#87
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Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 7:58 PM

what I meant was, "I think its based on BS" and the people who buy it are being duped. no offence....avoid the edges of cliffs

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#93
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Re: Global Warming?

01/11/2015 7:46 PM

No offence taken. I would like to be able to assist you to change your opinion but as it is opinion and not hard knowledge it is difficult to change. I too have an opinion only. All i can do is say how i arrived at my position;

For over 30 yrs now there has been a science show on Oz TV. Many a scientist came on and explained their study in one episode and then returned some years later. The later episode explained that things were rapidly going downhill for their 'pets' and they were confused as to what was happening now, that had never happened before. Some years later they would return again and explain that greenhouse gases were the likely cause. Years later another scientist would be looking at changes through geologic time and note that it is only in the last 100 yrs that 'x' has ever happened. The climate change theory is now introduced and we see many scientists returning to their papers and re-examining the phenomena they had previously recorded and seeing supporting evidence for the "Climate Change" theory. The theory as i understand it predicts that the change will be a warming. There is already a global dieing off of trees that are hundreds of years old. Any acceleration of this phenomenon will be dire for humans but great for bacteria, mold and algae. So not all bad news, eh? In summation i say again; 10's of thousands of scientists are in agreement that GW ( specifically Climate Change ) is real and needs to be addressed. I can only have an opinion based on that.

Jim

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#94
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Re: Global Warming?

01/11/2015 8:14 PM
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#67
In reply to #65

Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 8:47 PM

Actually the hole was found to be a seasonal cyclic phenomenon that is better described as a seasonal thinning in the fall/early winter months followed by full recovery to normal typical global wide DU levels for the other 8 - 10 months of the year.

It's pretty well documented science even though the media has yet to ever let it see the light of day.

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#69
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Re: Global Warming?

01/09/2015 11:16 PM

The media. Ah yes! Given that most of knowledge comes from the media it is no wonder there is so much difference of opinion. Not related to GW but relevant non-the less was a PhD done to analyse the media and the public "knowledge" about imunisation. Over 1000 articles around the world linked imunisation to negative effects on children. Curiously the stated effect was regional. In the US, if I remember correctly, it was linked to Autism. All of the scientific papers that looked into the stated effects found no basis in fact. I believe a clinic in the US that claimed to cure the non existent effects was eventually shut down and criminal proceedings started. Once this result was announced our friend went back to the media and again looked at all the publications that had previously linked imunisation to autism and checked to see if they reported the fraud conducted by the clinic. Only 1 did, and then it was a small column buried deep in the paper.

The point is, the media has it's own barrow to push for reasons known only to a few, and such it is no surprise that the intelligent and the hoi poloi alike question what they read. Unfortunately I see a confusion which ends up with their skepticism aimed at the wrong target. They don't shoot the messenger when perhaps it is the messenger who deserves to be shot for deliberately messing with the message.

Jim

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#73
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Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 12:40 PM

It is the UN Agenda 21 that concerns me. Wait and see.

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#71

Re: Global Warming?

01/10/2015 8:42 AM

First off, there is little or no science involved in the debate. It is all about data collection, and then trying to make sense of the data. Most people start in the late mid to late 19th century. I'm still trying to get reliable data for Antarctica for the period prior to 1911, if any one has it let us know. The North Pole is no problem as Santa Claus and starting in the 1930's Superman have kept accurate readings. Same for Africa, Dr. Livingston's and Lord Greystoke's records are sufficient. Now for the difficult part, making sense of it all. If data collection and the resulting analysis was a valid method, the same formula could be used to predict the stock market, or Powerball Lottery. Either of which have far fewer and better quantified variables than the environment. Try the following experiment, place 100 coins in a pot, remove one without looking to see whether it is "heads or tails". Remove the remaining 99 coins and documenting its state. After analyzing the data, predict the state of the 100th coin. Has anyone ever purchased a mutual fund? Each one has the following disclaimer "past performance does not necessarily predict future results". If a mutual fund where the folks make millions trying to predict the future, can't certify their results of a far simpler system, why shouldn't that apply to everyone else. This does not mean we shouldn't be good stewards of our neighborhoods, but mankind has yet to perfect the perfect energy source. I doubt we ever will. There will always be some far greater issue for future generations to solve as the result of our attempts. Even the UN can't solve this one.

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