Previous in Forum: Webcam Image to Google Glass?   Next in Forum: Straight Length Requirements for Thermowell
Close
Close
Close
17 comments
Rate Comments: Nested
Associate

Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 44

Energy Analyzers

01/19/2015 1:54 PM

Dear All,

i have installed some energy analyzers on distribution panel of a textile machinery unit. among those analyzers, one is master i.e installed on main ACB, others are installed on individual machines and distribution panels, the problem i am having is that the sum of KWH reading of individual analyzers never matches the value of KWH on the master analyzer, i have also tested/verified the current readings on all of the analyzers with clamp meter, all giving identical values that matches with values on clamp meter, is there anything else i need to check to rectify this issue???

please help.

Register to Reply
Interested in this topic? By joining CR4 you can "subscribe" to
this discussion and receive notification when new comments are added.

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#1

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/19/2015 1:57 PM

Just a guess. The master analyzer always displays a higher number, right?

Register to Reply
Guru
Hobbies - CNC - New Member

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Lost Wages Nevada
Posts: 1578
Good Answers: 55
#2

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/19/2015 2:04 PM

If the numbers don't match up could there be a distribution panel or machine you missed installing an "Energy Analyzer" on?

What is the reason for the "Energy Analyzers"?

Are you tripping a main circuit breaker?

More information is necessary to give you an intelligent answer!

__________________
Though it does seem he frequently has a Swiss Army knife or Leatherman and a roll of duct tape with him.
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 44
#3
In reply to #2

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/19/2015 2:15 PM

analyzers are installed on every out going supply, also no circuit breaker is tripping,

Register to Reply
Guru
Technical Fields - Technical Writing - New Member Engineering Fields - Piping Design Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Richland, WA, USA
Posts: 21017
Good Answers: 795
#4

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/19/2015 4:01 PM

Your outgoing feeders may have loads of different power factors. If you are measuring volt-amps, these loads will add vectorially, making the total appear smaller.

__________________
In vino veritas; in cervisia carmen; in aqua E. coli.
Register to Reply
3
Guru

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 669
Good Answers: 176
#5

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/19/2015 7:18 PM

These complaints are never accompanied by numbers to indicate the magnitude of deviation from an expected performance.

How do you know that the deviation is not within the accuracy spec of the device(s)?

Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 3)
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brasov, Romania
Posts: 255
Good Answers: 7
#6

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/20/2015 1:39 AM

GIGO

The OP is requesting a specific answer to a specific question without specific data. Brilliant!

Maybe he does not know what accuracy and deviation are.

By verifying the current on each feeder is only a small part of the solution and anyway it won't give any meaningful data.

My opinion is that you have to rectify first your knowledge about energy measurement and then we'll have a common ground to start from.

I hope you'll get back, unlike many others that ask questions and then are gone.

__________________
The time is ......now
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 44
#8
In reply to #6

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/20/2015 11:01 AM

i am measuring KWH, KWH reading of 24 hrs on main analyzer differs a lot in corresponding to sum of energy analyzers installed on outgoing feeders.

i have checked CT values and on CT and also in settings of analyzers, they are correct. also i have checked and the clamp meter amp reading and analyzer amp readings, they are both same, but at the end of day difference appears in KWH reading on main and sum of KWH readings of energy analyzers.

please tell me what specific data you need to help me out,

Register to Reply
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#9
In reply to #8

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/20/2015 12:26 PM

One last effort:

"at the end of day difference appears"

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN THE READINGS AT THE END OF THE DAY?????

Is the difference .5%, 1%, 2%, 3%, 4%, 5%, 6%, 7%, 8%, 9%,10% or more????

If that's too difficult, maybe just print out the numbers themselves?

Register to Reply
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brasov, Romania
Posts: 255
Good Answers: 7
#11
In reply to #8

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/21/2015 6:18 AM

we need the data that "told" you your metering does not work right, raw data if possible, kWh values for master/slaves (or at least a percentage as Lyn said): kWh for master and slaves, TC ratio, rated burden and class (as RAM said it might be overloaded, wrong class etc). Also a diagram would help (engineers use these a lot if you haven't figured that out so far) to see where the CTs are placed aso.

Did this happen since commissioning of the metering system or the problem is recent? What happened (repairs, interventions) before the problem appeared.

Stop talking/writing about the clamp meter amp reading. It is useless. For this to be of any use you need the voltage also, and the power factor.

__________________
The time is ......now
Register to Reply
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#14
In reply to #8

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/21/2015 10:44 AM

...and why does it only occur at the end of the day and not all the time?

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply
Power-User
Hobbies - Musician - New Member

Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 418
Good Answers: 3
#7

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/20/2015 8:17 AM

Different by how much? What are their corresponding accuracy? Are they all calibrated? You need to fix this first then complain if there are discrepancies.

__________________
"When I thought I exceeded to be wise but wisdom was far from me" -King Solomon
Register to Reply
2
Guru
Engineering Fields - Power Engineering - New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Location: NYC metropolitan area.
Posts: 3230
Good Answers: 444
#10

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/20/2015 2:05 PM

You may have a faulty transducer, improper meter ratio/factor, or crossed polarity. When measuring any vector quantity it is imperative that all polarities are correct from the device to the transducer.

The easiest way to verify that the transducers are not faulty is to put all of them on the same circuit and compare their readings. Assuming that they all read approximately the same for the same input then you have to ensure that the polarities of all the wiring from all the PTs and CTs to each transducer is correct, something that is tough to do with energized equipment unless you have a dual channel oscilloscope.

The other way involves setting up a totally separate set of voltage and current measuring points with known proper polarities and attaching another transducer, then comparing the readings with the original transducer. Any difference in readings points to crossed polarity, a mismatched meter ratio, a poor connection, and/or an overburdened instrumentation transformer(s) (you are using metering class transformers aren't you?).

If the voltage is low enough to allow for a direct connection (no PT) and a clamp-on ammeter with output to your kWh transducer, then you can do this local to each panel and compare results. While you're doing this and the readings don't match simply swap polarities until they do, then you'll know that there is a polarity problem.

If you find that the readings are off by some fixed ratio, the next step would be to verify the meter ratio/factor to make sure that you have CT and PT ratios set properly in your meter/analyzer/program.

__________________
“Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn.” Ben Franklin.
Register to Reply Good Answer (Score 2)
Guru
United Kingdom - Member - Indeterminate Engineering Fields - Control Engineering - New Member

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: In the bothy, 7 chains down the line from Dodman's Lane level crossing, in the nation formerly known as Great Britain. Kettle's on.
Posts: 32175
Good Answers: 839
#12

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/21/2015 8:02 AM

Removing the one on the incoming ACB will eliminate the problem.

__________________
"Did you get my e-mail?" - "The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" - George Bernard Shaw, 1856
Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Guru

Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 42355
Good Answers: 1693
#13

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/21/2015 9:00 AM

This is hopeless.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Power-User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Brasov, Romania
Posts: 255
Good Answers: 7
#15
In reply to #13

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/23/2015 1:13 AM

We've tried...

__________________
The time is ......now
Register to Reply
Associate

Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 44
#16

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/24/2015 6:38 AM

thanks to all for adding thoughts to this problem , i found problem in wiring of Current transformer, changed its wiring, also i find that one machine named "stenter" when run, the difference increases. the CT wiring for that analyzer was not correct.

Register to Reply Score 1 for Good Answer
Member

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 9
#17

Re: Energy Analyzers

01/24/2015 10:42 PM

All the basic three parameters voltage current p.f . should be matching. For accurate results the individual current measuring element should operate at 40-100% loading. Accuracy class of all analyzers also matter.

Register to Reply
Register to Reply 17 comments

Good Answers:

These comments received enough positive votes to make them "good answers".

"Almost" Good Answers:

Check out these comments that don't yet have enough votes to be "official" good answers and, if you agree with them, vote them!
Copy to Clipboard

Users who posted comments:

BIHARILALGUPTA (1); Iris (1); Kulas (1); lyn (3); mrmuneb (3); nikolay (3); Original_Macgyver (1); PWSlack (2); RAMConsult (1); Tornado (1)

Previous in Forum: Webcam Image to Google Glass?   Next in Forum: Straight Length Requirements for Thermowell

Advertisement