Pump

You need to provide the flow rate and the details of the fluid. You do realise that sort of pressure is a significant percentage of the yield stress of most steels, don't you?

hey Crabtree,

Thanks for your reply. U r the first man to talk to.

OK! you need details.

Fluid :: all sort of hydrocarbons and water. Regarding flow rate, will be well calculated with inner radius of pipe, so to speak. That is not a point now. The point is who can engineer for that pump? Can you ?

No-one can. You need the fluid details and flow rate to size the motor!

A pipe for 200,000psi? You need to look at that first.

You also need to look at the Process Engineering aspects to determine whether such a high pressure, which is still a significant proportion of many metals' yield stress, is actually wanted.

Anything else you haven't told me? Like, the application, for instance?

Your ball....

Doh! I think he actually means 200 psig, not 200,000.

The flow is NOT define by the pipe but by the process. The diameter of the pipe is defined by the flow and the accep^ted pressure drop in the pipe and controls.

Are you sure about the 200 ksi ? Are you sure about the 3 cm do you not mix units and come to wrong results ?

It would be better to explain what you intend to do and then we can see if it is or not possible to make it - which I doubt . 200 ksi = 1400 N/mm² it is over the yield limit of some steels. Normally for such pressures due to the difficulty to seal the gaps (which are variable due to the high pressure) pressure intensifiers are used also because in general at such pressures the flows are low.

If you give more input I can tell you what you can expect.

What do Mechanical Engineers know about Process Engineering? Pah!

Go to the highlighted site below.

200KSI is a lot of pressure.

Type "high pressure pump" into the search window.

You cannot use the same pump for multiple fluids, successfully.

They will want SPECIFIC information, which I doubt you have.

• Products & Suppliers
• 
  IHS GlobalSpec is now IHS GlobalSpec is now

hey lyn,

There is no 200k psi pump in that search window. Do you happen to know the e-mail contact address of IHS Enigeering ?

LOL! You might need a guide for your internet traveling experience....

Catalog of 7 Products Product 1 of 7 in Centrifugal Pumps MPVN High Pressure Multi-Stage Pumps

HIGH PRESSURE CENTRIFUGAL INDUSTRIAL PUMPS -- INDUSTRIAL VERTICAL AND HORIZONTAL MULTI-STAGE COOLANT PUMPS

Product 1 of 3 in Liquid Handling Pumps High Pressure 3-Stage Jet Pump -- 250SCRD

You need to learn how to search for these things.

Lyn,

Are any of those pumps smaller than 3 cm in width? Did I read the OP correctly?

I don't think the piping for 200,000 PSI would be that small Let alone the pump itself or am I thinking wrong?

This is what I found.

http://www.harwoodeng.com/products/laboratory-sized-equipment/gas-boosters/sa-7-gas-booster-200000-psi-max/

No. As you guessed, it's impossible to build such a pump, based on zero details.

guest_future is lost in a world about which he knows nothing.

As already pointed out, with all the important variables being known, it's waste of time.

OP does not know.

I don't care to try to educate him.

I feel the same way, I Googled 200000 PSI pump and got that first result.

You can lead an Engineering student to the Internet, but you can't make them Think?

Try to search for "Gear pump" but even that may be more than 3cm flange to flange.

If you find a gear pump for such a pressure then please let me know.

It's possible you could build an explosive discharge plunger that could hit 200k psi with extremely low gph, that would fit in 1"....sort of like shooting high caliber blanks for power....

From technical feasibility the first question to be answered is

"Is there a material that could be used to construct a pump that could have a wall section less than 1.5cm and withstand the nominated liquid pressure?"

If the answer is "Yes.", then it would in theory be feasible. After that, It's up to him to then find a fabricator.

Whether the result matches any characteristic of his needs relating to delivered quantity is another thing.

If and only if you have no plunger ! And then it cannot pump. For high pressure plunger pumps are prefered.

Usually high pressure plungers are (as mentioned above) made from ceramics because it has a high young modulus and a lower Poisson Coeff. so that plunger diameter do not grow as much as steel in the compressed state and allows a smaller gap. It has a higher wear resistance in the sealing zone.

Please let me know if the OP actually finds or builds this EXHP pump and where they will be testing it so I can hunker down in my bomb shelter when they energize the pump!

lets work backwards, 2 questions, what EXACTLY are you attempting to achieve? where did you come up with such an outrageously high number?? a lot of people reading your question think you have no idea just how wild your PSI number is, including me.

Well first I think he must mean 200,000 kpa, which would be about 30,000 psi....

TBC. And 3 cm is 3 inch and the world is turning backwards when you look at it from the other side!

Baa, nathing to gat hear.

If it was me I would be starting out with something like one of the HArdox lines of alloy steel. I have personally used Hardox 450 for boiler plates and farm equipment repairs and that is listed for something like ~230,000 PSI yield if I am recalling the numbers right.

Given that I think a double acting piston type pressure multiplier design would work using a larger 6 inch dia 1.5 inch stroke hydraulic piston primary driver to drive a double acting pressure multiplier with 1/2" dia pistons made out of tungsten carbide would probably work.

For valving I would be tempted to use tool steel for the poppet valves all while trying to keep the passages under 1/8" dia.

The actual pressure multiplier ends for the 6 inch hydraulic piston assy would be machined out of single billets of Hardox steel.

Just my theory on how to make a 200,000 PSI pressure multiplier.

guest_future needs your genius to create all this is a 3 cm space.
I'm thinking a little magic dust or pixie wings might do it.What about you?
Or, have I misunderestimated your skills?

For whatever reason my wife seems to think we need a CNC water jet cutter for who knows what so I have been reading up on the designs ans theory behind them.

Given the ridiculous costs involved Vs what actually goes into the pressure multiplier units I am half tempted to build one myself out of spite.

I'm figuring that since I now have a good working knowledge of how the high pressure high volume plunger pumps and plumbing are designed for fracc work replicating a smaller design that work at higher pressures is doable.

Great news!

I am in. Just to make sure, regarding the width, can you work(3cm) that out likewise?

best regards to u and to your smart wife.

3cm of what exactly? Thus far you have given zero usable information for us to work with much like my "smart wife" is also known for.

I personally don't cater to the 'magic dust and pixie wing' crowd, too much into the 'clap your hands if you believe' territory.

From the details he's given, I believe the pump housing will need to me made of Unobtanium, the pump motor will need Handwavium magnets for the rotor and Nonsenseolium wire for the stator windings.

However, the project itself seems to be weapons-grade Balonium.

I could keep going as long as the Adinfinitum holds out. Well we also need to make sure we don't get too much of a buildup in the Adnauseum reservoir, that one's a mess to clean up when it overfills.

hey tcmtech,

So, considering your theory, is it with width --- 3cm ?

Maybe its size, who knows!

What are you really on about?

Anybody ever dealt with a water jet machine?

The ones I have repaired over the years can develop a max of 96,000psi under normal operating conditions, a little extra can be coaxed out of them if needed but the wear and tear on the pump and piping is ridiculous even at 80,000psi.

The cost for repair parts in over the top, the initial cost for the "multiplier" is $15k.

And did I mention that the media (in my case water) that is being compressed has to be filtered to about 5 microns, yeah they hate dirt.

Oh BTW the overall size of the "multiplier is approximately 15cm x 60cm. secondary bore is 25mm, primary bore is 100mm, secondary cylinder O.D. 125mm, and I have seen the secondary cylinder swell due to pressure demands, not much mind you but enough to render it useless.

And the secondary piston is ceramic.

High order from the OP indeed.

"all sort of hydrocarbons and water"

hey Wrench twirler,

Thank you for your useful info. I wonder, please tell me, who and where is OP ?

Regards.

You tell us you are the OP! (OP=original poster)

"And did I mention that the media (in my case water) that is being compressed has to be filtered to about 5 microns, yeah they hate dirt." [emphasis added]

You can compress an incompressible fluid? You'll have to share the secret someday, I'm sure there are groups out there that wold love to be able to stuff two gallons of water into a one gallon container.

attempt to compress a liquid

Ah, so the piston shaft is the weak link in a 'fluid locked' engine. Makes sense, it's the part with the least amount of precision machining, therefore the cheapest to replace.

Fortunately I've only heard/read about engines getting water in the cylinder, I've never experienced it myself. And this is the first time I've seen the results of such a disaster.

Dang, that doesn't just ruin your evening, looks like it could screw up an entire WEEK, or more, if the replacement parts need to be shipped in.

Actually water is compressible. It looses about 1% of its volume for every 3000 PSI so at 200,000 PSI in theory it should loose about 2/3's of it's volume.

Ah, I did not know that.

So 'Incompressible' means 'incompressible under normal earth conditions.' One hundred (American) tons per square inch does seem like something you generally encounter in places where humans are likely to go to.

what a fracking show off

It's just one of the countless bits of near useless info that got stuck in my head along the way.

Actually in fraccing when working with systems that have to pump continuously at 9 - 15,000 PSI @ rates of up to 2000+ GPM that 3 - 5% 'squish factor' does come into play when setting up inline (high pressure side) flow meters and densometers which if done wrong can mean coming up 5 - 10 semi loads of water or sand short or long for the job.

Coming up short is no big deal being you can always order more but coming up long can be a real pain being that apparently you cant return sand or fracc water to whom ever you got it from.

"Coming up short is no big deal being you can always order more but coming up long can be a real pain being that apparently you cant return sand or fracc water to whom ever you got it from."

You can't just send the extra down the well to 'scrape the bottom of the barrel' as it were? Or is 'overfracking' a site one of those things that causes a nearby town to vanish entirely down a 'coincidental sinkhole that just happens to reek of fracking fluid'?

(Don't mind me, I just enjoy 'bear-bating' frackers, guess my inner child didn't get into enough mischief back when it was my 'outer child.')

The engineers who design the fracc jobs for what ever reason are highly OCD in their requirements. Its not uncommon to see zone or stage numbers relating to tenths of Bbl on a 30,000+ bbl zone and PSI numbers like 8510.215 on the design sheets.

That said yea if we are coming up a bit long we would occasionally over stuff the last zones or stages to get everything down there unless one of the actual engineers was lurking in the area. then there are the times where occasionally some formations simply don't want to take all the stuffing and we end up with too much extra towards the end of job we cant just hide and somebody has to see all the numbers behind everything in fine detail to figure out what when wrong and where the blame goes.

When that happens we usually have another job with the same company right behind the last one so they just forward the leftovers to the next site which with water is no big deal being the water trucks can reload themselves but when a sand hog unit is packed with 300,000+ pounds of sand its a real pain to unload and put back into trucks and someone always has to argue about who is paying the bill for the extra work.

Too bad the sand truck aren't using the 'mack truck dumpster trailers,' then you could just leave the sand in the trailer until it needs to be dumped onto the 'quarry pile' for shoving down the crack.

(Shoving sand into cracks; why am I being uncomfortably reminded of my last trip to the beach?)

Actually the sand comes in in blow off trucks, IE air transfer pneumatic hopper bottom systems, none of it ever gets stock piled on the ground.

Its blown right from the trucks into the sand hopper units (Sand Hogs and I don't know why they call them that) then from there the sand goes onto conveyor belts up to the blender unit that mixes the sand with the fluids.

It's that reverse transfer method of going backward from a conveyor based unloading systems on the sand hogs to the pneumatic hoppers on the trucks that is the problem no one wants to deal with if they don't have too.

Hey at least someone is trying to make this thread educational even if it is just me.

Problem is OP is clueless.

OP, read this:

PUMP BASICS

Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.00 until you have.

"Its blown right from the trucks into the sand hopper units (Sand Hogs and I don't know why they call them that) then from there the sand goes onto conveyor belts up to the blender unit that mixes the sand with the fluids."

So I had my vocabulary wrong, but the basic idea still looks sound. Keep the sand in the trucks until it's absolutely needed, maintain the hopper at near minimum level for operation. Things are easier to clean up if you don't 'over-feed the hog.' (That turn of phrase practically turned itself, perhaps the guys who designed the sand hopper units were naming them specifically for that joke? ... Naaaah, that's stretching it, even for MY twisted sense of humor.)

I imagine they call them Sand Hogs because that is a manly term for something that plays in the sand. You would not want to call them "Sand Kitties", and "Sand Hopper" sounds like some kind of flea. But if they are boob shaped, why not call them "Sand Jugs" (sorry if anyone happens to find that offensive, not meant to be so). I suppose in some locations, they could call them "Sand Man", but that makes me sleepy, besides, it will put your eye out.

Yes, it would be a real costly PITB to remove the sand back to the transport trucks. They might have to retrofit the SAND HOG with a penumatic conveyor tube to blow it back to the truck, and with the present configuration, that does not seem very practical.

If you could compress water by as much as 50% you would probably have unobtainium, or at least heavy water, but you would have to supply it electrons, and then have electron capture in a Brillouin "cage" (ordered near neighbor structure), then there would be an insufficiency of protons to go around, and it would have actually collapsed to heavy deuterium peroxide. I don't think that can fly, even if pigs had wings.

What are you going to do for an accumulator? That kind of pressure is going to need some kinda of cushion. But then again, I'll make sure I'm not around during your R&D process

As you will have gathered from the earlier replies, the answer to your question is no. Getting a pump to your pressure specification would be relatively easy, but only if you include a flow rate. What is not possible is putting it into you size envelope. Why not put a larger pump elsewhere and pipe in the flow and return using the edge of your 3cmm gap?

Are you serious?--3cm on 200,000 psi-- You're busting our gut. Such a waste of time

"Does somebody in here, can engineer 200k(200.000) psi pump motor with specific size configurations ?
I need it like this : width: no more than 3cm;"

This reminds me of a joke I once heard, but I forgot it. Okey Kokey B'Dokey, Mr. guest future: riddle us all this: are you refering to 200 kpsi (ksi), or are you referring to 200.000 psig (a very precise number I must admit)? Once we have established that for sure, then we can proceed. Are we cutting gemstones with a tiny nozzle, or 25cm thick steel with a water jet? Or are we cutting stone blocks to mimic something the ancient Chileans or Peruvians may have, or may not have done?

Guys you are AMAZING, indeed. I am really impressed with such active, talent engineers.

So far to speak, it is a 200.000 PSI . And yes, you are right! you can with that pressure granites.

My point is, a size of pump. I need it small, the width is no more than 3cm. Regarding length and height remains for necessary judgement by all means.

So, is there anybody do know how to do it ?

Apparently you do not read the comments. It was mentioned several times that what is needed is the FLOW ans as long as you do not write how big or small it should be no one will be able to give you a correct YES or NO.

Does a pump with 0.0001 GPM satisfy your need ? or do you need the flows used for kracking ?

My, oh my, oh my...

Are you the fellow who was looking for some bullet proof paint?

Just because something might be constructible doesn't mean it's a good idea, let alone practical.

Bullet proof paint, for example. LynDoor Bacon Shirts is another example.

What might be the effort expended to design and construct one of these pumps? An undefined hourly rate charged at an undefined number of hours to construct one such pump of overwhelmingly undefined parameter, other than hold [yikes!] 1.18" in one dimension and pumping - something - at [wowza!] 200,000 psi?

That shirt was a real pig.

Even your marketing genius couldn't put that shirt on a back.

OP is not only thinking outside the box, he's thinking outside the solar system.

I suspect he may be channeling "Honey, I Shrunk The Kids".

Why am I still here? Hoping for some tiny glimmer of intelligence from the inquirer. Ever the optimist, that I am.

Humor him.

I want one of those bacon shirts to put on the back of an ISIS fighter right before he gets slapped by a sidewinder (snake or missile, IDK). I stand with King Abdullah of Jordan, with France (vive' La France), 'Merica, Great Britain, and all freedom and peace loving peoples of the world in demanding a price from these Godless, Sub-human monsters that can only be paid by their everlasting torment in hell for what they have done to all who fall into their hands.

Maybe he is engineering an ISIS castration device.

Bacon shirts for ISIS fighters? Waste of good bacon.

Just start lubricating all the firearms used against them with lard (or pig lard, if there is such a thing as non-pork lard, I'm not an expert on the subject). and for the ones who we capture, boil them alive in lard.

(the opinions in this post do not represent the true feelings of the poster, and are submitted as pure sarcasm and hyperbole)

"What might be the effort expended to design and construct one of these pumps? An undefined hourly rate charged at an undefined number of hours to construct one such pump of overwhelmingly undefined parameter,"

The double acting pressure multiplier concept I am thinking about would probably take a week to machine out most of it myself and construct. Cost wise probably around $1000 in materials for a 80/20 chance of it either working right the first time or blowing up.

Size wise I figure about 10" dia by about 12" long and maybe good for about 50 cubic inches per minute flow rates with a ~50 HP hydraulic input and a total weight likely near 100 pounds or better.

Thats my rough guess at designing such a device.

Still not sure what I would use for the actual nozzle though. Industrial diamond perhaps?

It'll blow up and you'll put your eye out.

I'm only here to watch the lunacy.

ROFLMFAO!!!!

I already told you this cannot be made of anything but Unobtainium, or maybe Adamantium (Capt. America's shield), or if you do build it, please write to:

Captain America

212121 Rue Decatur

New Orleans, LA (that may actually be in Shreveport)

to request a loaner shield for when you run this pump!

Oh, and BTW your pump will be rejected by specification that it be no more than 3 cm diameter.

<Salute> I stand corrected. You know what I meant, doggone it.

He don't want a pump, he wants a motor, look at the Original Post, and take a Dutchman for what he says, not what he means, but there again, he also said 200.000 psi. I can do that with a deadheaded pump running off a tiny DC motor.

He has no clue what he wants!

It's February, I think we can put the Christmas Story quotes to bed until November.

"Fra-gee-lay? Must be Itallian."

Or perhaps not. (Stupid brain, you should back me up when I say something, not undercut what little credibility I have.)

Some things are appropriate year round.

Or appropriately inappropriate, such as the Leg Lamp.

dear tcmtech,

I see you are the who commited to do. Look, the 10inch is a way large, at least can you try for 5 inch or less?

regards.

NOW YOU ARE REDUCING THE SIZE SPECIFICATIONS??

WOW!

You gotta love it

Its more an enlargement. But then still nothing to go on.

And just because I post something in a public forum does not mean I'm being 100% serious. When in doubt, do NOT take me seriously, and you'll be right at least 90% of the time. The other 10% I'll come back and rephrase what I said with more references to show that I'm not just acting the fool.

Acting? ROFLMAO! You laid yourself wide open for that one.

"Thank you, thank you, I'll be here till Thursday. Don't forget to tip your waitstaff. Try the veal. The head chief made me say that last part."

Guest future: You should change your name to Guest Futile I think.

200.000 psi = 200 psi very precisely! In most of the civilized part of the world 200.000psi means two hundred psi with precision to the nearest thousandth of a psi.

But since H (psi) = E (psi), then by solving the Hamiltonian for this pump, we can determine the energy wasted in talking about this subject. That's a joke, sun. Here in America, we talk 'Merican, and if we want to talk about two hundred thousand psi, then we write that as 200,000 psi. Is that (finally) what you are talking about?

There ain't no pump 3 cm diameter available that has an output pressure of 2 x10⁵ psig. There ain't one that puts out 200,000 psig either.

To the best of my knowledge that pump (if it could exist) would be made of a very high tensile strength material, with TS>200,000 for safety reasons. Good luck with that.

The actual force if the bore of the pump is tiny (say 0.181") is 113,790 lbs. when the pressure is 2 x 10^{5 psi} (200 ksi), thus this would have to be made from a very unusual alloy. This alloy would have to have upward of 200,000 lbs/in² tensile strength, with an elongation of 0.00000%. The creep strength of the alloy would have to also be higher than the tensile strength to achieve this, and to have any pump life more than 30 seconds, I suppose. Maybe this pump could be made of graphene (not that much graphene in the world at the moment, or BN3, or perhaps Si3N4, but not sure how the last one would hold up to water, I think it hydrolyzes to SiO2 and ammonia. The two nitrides are pretty slippery with respect to self-lubricating properties, and just maybe one of them could be used (for 30 seconds). Not only all of the above constraints would have to be met, but the "plunger" might not be a solid at all, perhaps it would have to be some sort of repetitive pressure wave as ultrasound, but in a waveguide that would create high pressure jets of water out some tiny nozzle about the size of a human hair, I don't know. I do expect that no metal plunger that exists would stand up to the compressive forces on it without total binding of piston to cylinder.

The ONLY way I can foresee this happening is with some sort of Q pulse operating within a waveguide that tapers down with constructive wave interference such that the wave amplitude is multiplied with high gain, and having a tiny nozzle to allow pulsed jets of water to be ejected with the equivalent of 200 ksi just upstream of the nozzle. If the nozzle is <0.010", then carbon steel might be able to handle the pressure, but will probably fail due to cavitations during the extreme pressure collapse after compression peak.

Wait! Hold on! Where's the number to my patent attorney?

Ridiculous.

I guess we all missed the mark. You requested a pump motor, not a pump. That makes everything different. Since you did not specify volume flow rate of pump, we assume it to be zero. Therefore there will be no problem engineering an electric motor of 3 cm diameter that can drive a mechanism to produce 200,000 psi into a deadhead.

I can engineer this!

Whats in it for me?

Terms and conditions apply!