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Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

Posted October 13, 2009 12:00 AM by Steve Melito

In 2007, two Hollywood screenwriters launched a grassroots, nonpartisan initiative called ScienceDebate2008 to encourage America's presidential candidates to publicly debate science policy. Scientists thought this was a "great idea", Unscientific America explains, "because they assumed that the rational airing of policies and differences should lead to better decision making".

But politicians, including the nominees of both major political parties, "viewed it as a lose-lose proposition". In the words of ScienceDebate2008's CEO, Shawn Otto, a televised science debate "would require lots of prep time and huge political exposure in order to move a relatively niche audience".

Editor's Note: This is the third part in a four-part book review. Click here if you missed the introduction. Click here for the previous entry in this series.

Science Escape 2008

Ultimately, ScienceDebate2008 secured written answers to 14 questions from the presidential nominees of both major parties. Yet "it was two screenwriters – mass communicators – and not scientists themselves," Shawn Otto adds, who secured this limited achievement.

So why didn't America's citizen-scientists drive the debate from the start? "Effective communication isn't rocket science," Chris Mooney and Sheril Kirshenbaum explain, but "most scientists are source-oriented communicators" who would rather speak to their peers in "scientist-speak" than address politicians, the public, and television reporters.

Mooney and Kirshenbaum use the history of ScienceDebate 2008 to encourage American scientists to embrace a style of "receiver-oriented communication" that considers the needs of a larger, national audience. In dealing with politicians, scientists "should establish long-term relationships that are multi-directional in nature" rather than limiting their outreach to requests for research funding. In dealing with the media, scientists must also adjust their approach. Specifically, scientists "will have to accept that their advice is being judged not on its substantive content – at least not at first – but explicitly on the utility of its packaging."

The Crisis in Science Communication

But can scientists rely upon the media to get a science story straight, if it's even covered at all? In Unscientific America, Mooney and Kirshenbaum also claim that "there's a crisis today in the realm of science communication," a crisis that will only deepen "as market forces continue to dismantle public-interest-oriented, informative journalism of all types and supplant it with entertainment, blogging, or nothing at all." In the newspaper industry, declining profits have led to sharp cuts in science coverage. On the Internet, "the typical blog mode is to find an individual piece of science reporting with some particular failing and blast it." On cable TV, "fragmentation" and the rise of "partisan media" prevail.

Science and Stereotypes

Science and scientists don't fare much better in Hollywood, Unscientific America continues. Part of the problem is "a sense that science is inimical to storytelling" because "it quashes creativity, which be allowed to breathe". Scientists are creative, of course, but "the scientific method, as a process" is a lengthy one that doesn't lend itself to an hour-long film or television program. Then there's the matter of how TV shows and movies depict scientists themselves. As James Cameron, the director of films such as Aliens and The Terminator, has observed, these forms of entertainment generally "show scientists as idiosyncratic nerds or actively the villains".

"We don't see many films about evil literary critics," Mooney and Kirshenbaum note, so "it's safe to infer there's something about scientists that triggers a particular type of stereotyping." The origins of this bias run deeper than an American "disdain of intellect," a phenomenon that the historian Richard Hofstadter described in his 1962 classic, Anti-Intellectualism in American Life. According to the authors of Unscientific America, the public's attitude towards scientists reflects "our society's uneasiness with the power they can sometimes wield." Unfortunately, some members of the profession respond in kind with unfair depictions of real or imagined adversaries.

The Great Desecration

Paul Zachary Myers, a University of Minnesota biology professor, provides a case in point. In 2008, "PZ" Myers asked readers of his popular Pharyngula blog to "score me some consecrated communion wafers" from a Catholic Church so that he could desecrate the Eucharist and post pictures of this "profound disrespect". Myers' example is an extreme one, but the authors of Unscientific America cite "a large number of 'New Atheist' voices" who contribute to this renewed tension between science and religion in America. Still, some of the most prominent names that the authors cite (e.g., Christopher Hitchens) are not those of scientists at all, but of journalists and other academics who write about science-related subjects.

Unscientific America's analysis may be overly broad here, but its conclusions are bold. "The American scientific community gains nothing from the condescending rhetoric of the New Atheists", Mooney and Kirshenbaum claim. "America is a very religious nation", they add, "and if forced to chose between faith and science, vast numbers of Americans will choose the former".

Author's Note: Click here for the fourth and final part of this series.

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#37
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 12:37 AM

Simply meaning that some very Pacifistic cultures would have been wiped out without intervention by other more warlike groups (Nepal , for instance, may be on the cusp)---others are in the history books--Not to say that those cultures are wrong, it is that they may have been in the wrong place at the wrong time, culture wise. Many peaceful agricultural American Indian tribes were wiped out by rival hunter, gatherer tribes (Apache etc) . They may have all believed in the same spiritual values, but had different approaches to survival---hope that makes sense--C-MAC

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#42
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 11:48 AM

I appreciate the clarification. I was afraid you were going somewhere antisemitic with your original comment, I'm glad I was wrong.

Regarding Nepal, they are certainly not passive, having been engaged in a civil war for decades now.

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#39
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 1:42 AM

On the contrary we have the work of British anthropologist Joseph Daniel Unwin

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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 12:14 AM

When I was a child, all I knew about was 'our' religion (Protestant, although I really didn't know what we were protesting), and 'the other' religion (Catholic). Today, essentially everyone is at least aware of many religions, each having their own God or Gods. Each religion appears to think they are right and the others are wrong, some to the extent that they think anyone not of that religion should be killed.

It is impossible that they are all right, but it just could be that they are all wrong. How do you decide which one, if any, is right? If there is a God, which one?

In antiquity there was a God for each major thing not yet understood (Fire, the Sun, Thunder, etc.). As we understand more such things, we no longer need Gods to create them. Follow this to the logical conclusion...

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#36
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 12:34 AM

You Wrote:"In antiquity there was a God for each major thing not yet understood (Fire, the Sun, Thunder, etc.). As we understand more such things, we no longer need Gods to create them. Follow this to the logical conclusion..."

Ok, I will. Knowledge is essentially infinite and human beings are finite, which means that no matter how much time passes and how much we develop we will never be able to fully understand everything.

So the logical conclusion one must draw is that we will always need Gods since there will always be things we can't explain.

But if we ignore our finite limitations, the logical conclusion is that once we understand everything there is to understand we will no longer need Gods. Of course at that point we would be Gods, so your point is a bit moot.

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#52
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/17/2009 8:59 PM

When all the gods argue as to the direction the canoe will take. Note, the only one not arguing is the paddling reluctant human....his faith is sealed (no pun intended)...all the rest are 'in the same boat' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Haida_Gwaii

I believe this is Native humour at its in-depth best! The sculptor is Bill Reid.

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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/18/2009 4:38 AM

Hey, wow ..I came to this thread from another dimension (ok it was the bath thread)
But I'm glad I did just to see that carving.
Oh Ducky Duck-kins I wub you severely for posting this.
That carving is stunningly beautiful.
I love that critter on the prow
Ta
Del (Now where di I put my chisels?)

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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/18/2009 9:32 AM

Hey! Glad to hear!

Here's one in real time and place.........not a tourist thing and far off the beaten path.

Tsonokwa.......a complex definition of human nature (not enough room on this thread to fully grasp the meaning but some available on internet...ps there are many)

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#40
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 2:19 AM

Can a religious concept be of value if the god being worshiped is fashioned by the hands of the worshiper?

Let it be understood that religion is ritual. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen; Hebrews 11:1.

Protestantism is often used to denote all non-Roman Catholic Christianity, rather than to denote those churches adhering to the principles described below.

Protestantism is associated with the doctrine of sola scriptura, which maintains that the Bible (rather than church tradition or ecclesiastical interpretations of the Bible) is the final source of authority for all Christians. Another distinctive Protestant doctrine is that of sola fide, which holds that faith alone, rather than good works, is sufficient for the salvation of the believer.

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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/15/2009 5:52 AM

Roger:

I'm with Laplace on this one. When Napoleon asked him where God fit into his theory on the origin of the solar system, Laplace replied, "I have no need of that hypothesis."

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#28
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/15/2009 12:00 PM

That would make sense, Laplace was an atheist.

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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 1:31 AM

I am a Hindu and an atheist, as my family has been for many many generations. The children following suit.

Contrary to common belief, Hinduism is atheistic at the core in the sense that there is no personified God that arbiters everything and an eternal hell or heaven. Yet, it permits one to create one's own version of God (in any form) or be an atheist. There is no church or congregation. Even those that do worship God in some form will usually refer to God as That, a sort of I am that I am. We believe in 'Be still and know I am God', the 'I' being the one that achieves the stillness.

Curiously, I did my high schooling in a Roman Catholic seminary, where the rest in the class were to become RC priests. All teachers were RC priests. I used to have lively discussions on religion with all the senior clergy, who were from all parts of the world and had no problem with other religions and even a lack of one in my case. I am deeply indebted to my RC priest German science teacher that set my feet on the path of science that I have now been travelling for half a century.

I have solid respect for other peoples' belief, whatever their religion may be. Since almost all in the family are academic, virtually every religion is represented in the family by marriages. We have a Muslim, a Jew, an RC, a Buddhist, a Sikh and a generous sprinkling of vaious subsects of Hinduism itself. Everyone takes part in the festivities of each and even visit their places of worship.

I must confess that almost all are atheistic in a sense.

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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/14/2009 3:57 PM

"Even the moral teachings of most religions are so vague as to be useless. Consider "Thou shall not kill" does that mean no killing for meat? No self defence? No armies? no motor racing? No letting kids starve in poor countries?"

I happened to be in the Toronto area during this (Canadian) Thanksgiving weekend and had the opportunity to see the Ten Commandments exhibit at the Royal Ontario Museum. There was only the small leather piece, the Commandments themselves, from the Dead Sea Scrolls find which they had under glass, but there was some additional displayed information which confirmed personal studies I have done.

One of the things to keep in mind when trying to understand certain passages of scripture is how the original languages were being used, rather that the relying solely on English translation which can present problems to our understanding. The idea behind the Hebrew of "Thou shalt not kill" is to do no murder, not just kill in general. This problem of selective passage paste-up to determine accurate doctrine can easily be overcome with the right resources such as a Hebrew/Greek lexicon.

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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/14/2009 6:09 PM

Good point. Although it then hinges on what you mean by murder.

Going off to war, even if in self defence, while carrying a gun certainly looks like you're intending to kill someone. What about going off to war to help "liberate" another country?

Anyway, I suspect that most fundamentalists disagree with the academic scholarship that seeks to place the meaning of sacred writings within a historical context.

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#14

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/14/2009 12:22 PM

Thanks for another excellent post. I think one thing that is missing in this discussion is the concept of 'certainty'. Politics is all about leadership. Leadership is about providing solutions to problems (real or imagined), and convincing others that these solutions will work. Leaders must project an air of authority and certainty. Without that they will generally be ignored. This is true for all social animals.

Science is not about certainty, it's all about uncertainty. Scientific progress is based on reducing the level of uncertainty. As any of the current 'scientific' debates raging in the public sphere will show, no matter how small science can make the uncertainty, it will still be large enough to drive the truck of absolute certainty through. As long as there are big chunks of the population with patterns of thought that allow for the possibility of certainty, communication between scientist and non-scientist will be a problem.

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#31
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/15/2009 11:25 PM

Yes--I agree that leadership is about providing solutions to problems......What I disagree with is , What is the Problem?? Many in the Scientific Community, in order to stay working, and to keep getting Grant Monies, CREATE or make up problems, in order to solve them--I.E.--The global warming, carbon- offsets, Aids problems, environmental potential disaster problems---Where is the Science , when one can call up "an emergency, ready to happen", with no proof, so that it can merge with a political agenda?? Too much money is connected to too many political fundings. The Left calls out the Right for creating wars, and needing to fund them, and the Right calls out the Left for creating environmental wars, and the needing to fund them---Alas--Where is REAL SCIENCE , without the bias?? That I feel is the real question.. C-MAC

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#43
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 12:12 PM

Well gosh - that's why I said 'providing solutions to problems (real or imagined)'. I apologize for the lack of clarity. My point was that leaders must appear to be certain about the course of action they support, because that is what the public expects and demands. I assume that educated people understand that this certainty is just an act.

I do however think it is disturbing that so many people in the engineering community have the same anti-science bias that is the subject of this thread. You seem to assert that 'global warming, carbon- offsets, Aids problems, environmental potential disaster problems' are all bogus problems dreamed up by self-serving scientists and their funding sources, as part of a vast (and incomprehensible) conspiracy to destroy 'our way of life'.

Let's consider the global warming issue. In 1979 Dr. Hansen first presented his green-house gas / global warming theory, based on the unexpectedly high temperatures found by Mariner's trip to Venus. Did NASA falsify the Venusian temperature readings? Was Hansen being dishonest when he suggested that the measured concentrations of known infrared-absorbing gasses in Venus's atmosphere was the likely explanation? Was he biased when he reasoned that the same thing could happen to our planet?

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that since then (~1980) our government has been largely under the control of the conservatives with a blatantly anti-science perspective, and with strong connections to the most highly polluting industries. How would it be possible under such conditions for such a conspiracy between scientists and their funding sources (mostly government and industry) to flourish?

Not content to trash the scientists, you then tar doctors with the same brush. I don't think that the CIA 'invented' AIDS to kill of blacks and gays. I don't think that the doctors and laboratories who isolated the HIV virus back in the 80's were concerned with finding a fake epidemic because they were going broke and had too much time on their hands.

You then say that these supposed conspiracies offer 'no proof' that these problems are real. Do you really mean 'no proof', or did you overstate your case when what you really meant to say was 'no evidence'. I don't fault the general public for making these types of arguments, but engineers should know better. I don't know where you would get the idea that science 'proves' or 'disproves' anything. Outside the fields of pure mathematics and theology, the word proof is meaningless. For an educated person to suggest that science could provide 'proof' of anything is really hard for me to understand.

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#48
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 11:32 PM

I don't think that the CIA 'invented' AIDS to kill of blacks and gays.

I don't think that's the made-up problem C-mac was referring to. I suspect the reference was to the "epidemic" status of AIDS. I remember well being told in the early 1980's that anywhere from 10% to 25% of Americans would contract AIDS; in fact the spread has been much, much slower. Perhaps that is because of behavioral changes in response to the hype, or maybe it was never as huge a threat as the mainstream media made it out to be. Maybe the doctors making the predictions had insufficient information to make the claims that they did. Today, even within high-risk demographics the incidence of HIV is much, much smaller than predicted. That's a made-up problem.

As for global warming, I agree with C-mac and many others. Evidence of higher-than-predicted temperatures on Venus is proof that the scientists who made the predictions didn't have all the information. It is not proof that SUVs are melting the icecaps. Even showing that the earth's temperature is rising does not implicate industry; the earth has undergone many temperature fluctuations over the millennia, and large-scale greenhouse gas production has only been happening for a little over a century. Scientists have yet to show that the oceans are rising, or that there is an increase in severe weather, or any other of the projected undesired consequences of warming. What science has been able to show, however, is that in the periods when the earth's average temperature was higher, humans thrived. More food, more water, longer growing seasons. So the looming crisis of global warming is another made-up problem, at least in my admittedly naive opinion.

Are these made-up crises really any better than the apocalyptic literature of religion? Are they not created in order to make an ignorant public act in some way beneficial to the perpetrators of the lie? Sure, scientists are often compelled to make claims in the absence of "proof." However, an ignorant public, via an ignorant media, sees only black and white: either we're in danger of imminent destruction, or there's nothing to worry about. Likewise, politicians will accept or ignore the advice of a scientist and take a firm stand which they believe will garner the most votes. The point of a politician establishing a firm stand is not generally because it is right for the populace, but because it will empower the politician. There seems to be a fine line between responsible leadership and charlatanism; apparently the difference is entirely in the mind of the voter/believer.

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#97
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/19/2009 11:58 PM

Back again--Thank you for reading through the last "criticism" of my post. You have really understood the tome of my post---We have been through the 70's and the Global Cooling and the warnings of Global famine, and the new Ice Age (Time Magazine covers)--Next up was serious soil depletions in the sub-Sahara Africa, and global starvation---Earlier in the 50's we had the Population Bomb, by Paul Eahrlich(sp), saying that we were all going to die from starvation, because the planet was over-inhabited- (basically the beginning of the Abortion movement, under Margaret Sanger)--Then, I remember the Ozone Hole, that was going to do us all in---I am now looking further into the DDT bans, that may have caused as many as 50 million people to die from Malaria infections-( again--mostly in the Sub- Sahara )-Understand that that might have been a Red Herring---BTW---If anyone is interested in a good website, please Google " THE GREEN AGENDA"--Please go through the site, look at the Club of Rome, The Club of Madrid, see who the players are, and if any of the 'Players" are familiar names or organizations---This data is accurate, and is available for all to see---no conspiracy--just data--Thanks again---Science in the name of science--not agenda---C-MAC

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#30

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/15/2009 11:01 PM

If you really wanted some good, accurate information, in down to earth in terms a normal person could understand, by a real scientist with several PHD's, who can really explain some of the things that go on - in cells, for example, this guy will blow your mind. Gerald Schroeder is his name, he has several books for normal people, non-scientist types, but one of the best is called "The Hidden Face of God".

If you are at all interested in science in different areas, and you like to read, try that one.

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#32

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/15/2009 11:35 PM

One point that hasn't been brought out during this whole article sequence (which article is very well thought out and written (and I thank Moose for it, for it made me think about my role within my own realm): it isn't necessarily that scientists are such that they are of the mind of, and I directly quote the original article:

"most scientists are source-oriented communicators" who would rather speak to their peers in "scientist-speak" than address politicians, the public, and television reporters.

I think that much of the lack of communication is ingrained in the fact that most scientists are working in realms that are so specialized that there would be little, as a scientist qua scientist that could be rendered in 'public speak' as to be coherent to a widely general audience.

I've been a programmer for over twenty-five years, and having worked in so many varied environments within that time, with so many different languages, and for so many result sets, that I would find it quite difficult to expound for a non-programming audience not only what I've actually done over those twenty-five years, but what effect my work, not to mention that of my more publicly available peers (e.g., open-source programmers) have had on the *real* cloud - that of being a provider of programmed solutions to a particular problem.

Sagan and Asimov were aberrations (and i'm not belittling their contribution), not the common 'scientist'. I wish both the scientific community, and the general public, would realize this. Huzzah for the common geek to be what he or she is: a provider of science and not of populist distillation.

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#44

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 5:36 PM

I'm coming in late to this discussion, but that is because I have been searching through the various posts for something, anything about science and it's poor state in the Americas. Why is it every conversation about teaching or learning science seems to end up being about God and religion?

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#45
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 6:44 PM

Why is Israel at the center of attention in world news so often? It must be a conspiracy

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#47
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 10:15 PM

Its in the center of the map.

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#49
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/17/2009 7:13 PM

It may be in the center of your map, but not everyone views the World by the same map/atlas.

My wife is Japanese and she told me the world map looks funny in the US. When I asked why, she explained that in Japan (I don't know about other Asian countries) Eastern Asia is in the center.

Here are a few links showing non-Mid East centered maps

http://www.maps.com/map.aspx?pid=1991

And if you look closely on this site you can find a few

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&source=hp&q=world+atlas+map&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=Pk3aSuSZGIzu6gP06IWgBg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCMQsAQwAw

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#50
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/17/2009 8:04 PM

Excellent point, now if I could only figure out what this was supposed to be a map of:

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#51
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Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/17/2009 8:21 PM

I've seen that one before. It's does look quite foreign. Kind of freaky like looking at someone's face upside (with their mouth/eyes right side up). http://www.youramazingbrain.org/supersenses/upsidedown.htm

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#46
In reply to #44

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/16/2009 10:15 PM

Maybe you should read the blog entry. The blog entry, describing the book which is what this discussion is about, goes off about religion, our posts are responding directly to that.

But nice job man, you're right, why are we responding to the post when we should be talking about the cliche, beat to death subject you want to regurgitate.

American science is soooo baaaad. Schooolls are soooo baddd. blah blah blah. Yet we have the finest doctors in the world. But no, you're right, American science still sucks somehow. Or maybe biology isn't a science? Please change the conversation to your obviously superior (yet inconsistent under the slightest critical investigation) musings.

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#55
In reply to #44

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/18/2009 3:55 PM

Because in the US religion has inhibited acceptance of science as if reality is not miracle enough.

Jeremiah 29:4-14 "Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are among you deceive you, and do not listen to the dreams they dream, for it is a lie they are prophesying to you in my name. I did not send them.

Acts.

Forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia, we ended up (due to Paul's vision) feeling Macedonia as alright to preach in. Lydia had us stay with her.

Luke 10: 1-12 Tell them we wipe our feet of your dust, dumbasses.

Luke 10:17-20

Lord even Demons are subject to us in your name!

-Well- Don't get to excited about it. You're not to be known anywhere on Earth.

I Ching 54

The Marrying Maiden

Thunder and Lake. Tact is called for. Science is not the chief wife. Keep in mind where you and yours will end up. Fix on the end regardless of the transitory stupidities.

This is an illustration of Transcendian Spiritual Practice. It is from The Reading of the Day out the Bible, and the throw of the I Ching.

If I did not know how to combine the two books and their illustrations of two different senses of time, I would absolutely be compelled to be completely atheistic.

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#76

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/19/2009 2:11 PM

Daggonit, here I spent two hours looking up the Reading for the Day, Throwing the I Ching, and condensing and combining the readings, and no comment. Frankly it is one of my proudest intellectual achievements.

The reason I am proud of it, is that others can replicate the experiment. I have discovered that there does seem to be strong evidence when doing this, experience of "Spiritual Seasons". Certainly the reading implies strongly that not every speaker who claims to speak for God, is in fact actually sent by God.

This admonition would seem to me to apply well to the discussion that evolved in the thread.

You may note that I did not pick the Reading from the Bible myself, but from the Readings for the Day as given in the Tables of the Book of Common Prayer.

The Reading that I got from the I Ching implied that "science" would do well to acknowledge that it best for it to serve the needs of the spirit, and it is counter productive for Science to vie for supremacy.

I do find that the two books, of about the same age, work well when used together, partly because they come at our spiritual experience in this world from two distinctly different senses of time.

The Bible is full of "stories", and is much more causal. The I Ching is more poetic in total, and the Readings are arrived at as if by Chance.

Most of us know that just because we always make the right choices, that does not insure success, for we may be unlucky. We are also aware that some people make terrible choices and seem lucky, and that life is an experience of choice and chance, or fate and fiat.

Now as far as whether or not it is proper for me to post on this forum this sort of thing, and expose yall to my practice, well, I feel justified in doing so in light of other posts within the tread, as well as the fact that Readings I got seem to well apply to the questions raised, and my belief that I am applying enough scientific method to the quest for spiritual guidance, in that you can perform the practice for yourself as an experiment, and see whether or not it helps you understand more fully your individual life, or the life we share.

P.S. I use the Bollingen Series XIX I Ching translated by Richard Wilhelm, with the foreward by C.G. Jung, the Episcopal Book of Common Prayer, and either the King James or New International version of the Bible.

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#95

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/19/2009 8:57 PM

I fear many of these discussions take me back to Eddie Izzard

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEx5G-GOS1k

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#96
In reply to #95

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/19/2009 9:10 PM

I do have a very nice flag.

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#99
In reply to #95

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/20/2009 12:14 AM

Never seen that before, that's good stuff.

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#127

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 11:39 AM

Meanwhile we are rearing another generation of kids who for the most part only have contact with science through the products they buy at the mall. The US cannot sustain itself as a consumer of science and science based products, we also need to be producers. If we expect to maintain our high wages and cushy lifestyles we will need to find some way to interest our children in science and math. We are wasting precious time and resources, and living on borrowed money.

Since Americans like TV game shows, maybe that's one route. Get a gifted sixth grader and an elected politician, and have them to compete for cash prizes, solving simple algebra problems, answering questions about basic science, and then maybe have a lab where they both perform a simple experiment. If the politician wins, they get a cash contribution to their favorite non-profit/PAC, and the student has to do extra homework. If the student wins they get a cash prize or a scolarship, and a cash grant for their school (paid for by the politicians non-profit), and the politician has to refrain from voting on any science or education legislation for a year. Gambling centers like Vegas and Wall Street could be encouraged to offer betting on the final outcome, the answers and solutions to the problems.

Colleges and Universities could include required courses in science communication, where students learn to take new cutting edge research findings and communicate them clearly to people eating at McDonald's. Success would be measured by asking the diners a series of questions on the subject. Those who do well eat free. The top students in these classes could get a break on their tuition.

Maybe Hollywood could offer a new Oscar category for movies with the most accurate representation of science. Nominees would be screened by panels of actual scientists as fact checkers to weed out the nonsense, and then of course the academy would vote for the movie based on whatever standards they dream up.

Taking this idea a little further, maybe there could be a special tax on movies, TV shows, books, magazines, for entertainment that includes paranormal or magical events, unexplainable super powers, vampires, zombies, aliens, etc.. The tax doesn't need to be punitive, but the proceeds would be earmarked for science and math education.

Speaking of education, we need to improve standards and pay for teachers. This will be very tough because the teachers' unions won't like it, some politicians on the left will argue that all forms of knowledge are equally valuable, and others on the right will argue that only science which doesn't conflict with conservative values should be taught using the tax payers money. Some industries won't like it because an educated population is harder to hood-wink. But if we fail to properly educate our people in math, science, and technology, we will soon become a nation of permanently indebted share-croppers.

I'm sure these ideas are half-baked at best, but I haven't had my morning coffee yet.

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#128
In reply to #127

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 12:34 PM

Those are some very creative and entertaining half-baked ideas, especially for someone with a coffee deficiency!

Unfortunately, simply exposing people to scientific data would serve only to make them good at Trivial Pursuit. Giving people a list of facts without the discipline to understand how those facts were determined is the essence of junk science. I almost think it would be better to leave an ignorant populace ignorant. "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Science is more than just facts; it is inquiry. The process can only be taught in the practice thereof. People (not just Americans, but we get the bad rap) need to learn critical thinking, to be able to distinguish fact from speculation and scientific truths from spiritual truths, to identify logical fallacies and to be able to deconstruct vast mysteries into finite unknowns.

This can only be accomplished by improving our educational system. This doesn't happen simply by throwing money at it; we need to remove incompetent grade-school teachers and replace them with competent ones. We need to raise the bar for graduation from high school, and make the diploma a prerequisite for public benefits. We need to make the criteria for a student loan a bit more stringent than "has a pulse" and make matriculation more difficult than lifting a beer stein. Let the smart people get college degrees, make average people get high school diplomas, and let the rest work minimum wage jobs until they decide to try for something better.

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#129
In reply to #128

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 1:12 PM

I understand your point about the difference between science 'facts' (or factiods) and the process of science, but we are in a deep hole and I am aiming low. I also think that critical thinking can be encouraged by teaching mere facts. If you know a few facts, and then encounter someone who denies those facts you have at least an opportunity to practice some small scale critical thinking of the consider-the-source variety. Having a working BS detector does not make you a scientist, but lacking one means you are not even in the game. I think having a critical mass of facts at your disposal is a prerequisite for critical thinking. I have no illusions that we can all be scientists, and I would hate to see our Universities filled up with unqualified students. But I do think that some level of scientific literacy in the general population just might put a damper on some of the most idiotic pseudo-scientific nonsense currently in circulation.

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#133
In reply to #129

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 2:33 PM

Dear johnfotl, I am mostly in agreement with you, though I do feel that facts alone without guidance are difficult for the neophyte to use in debate.

One of the most important tenets of critical thinking, is that one ought to always consider the source.

Wonder why someone wants you to believe in their facts, as opposed to all the facts.

Coal is Clean! I smoke because I choose to! Unions are Bad! Scientists and Communists are Godless, and without morals! Women are Unequal to Men! Islam is better than Christianity! NYC is better than Paris! Sharp TVs are better than Sony TVs! String Theory is stupid! & so on...

-Who says so, and why?

Such a question is a component of critical thinking necessary for getting at the truth.

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#134
In reply to #133

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 2:49 PM

"Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious." George Orwell quotes (English Novelist and Essayist, 1903-1950) ...

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#131
In reply to #127

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 1:49 PM

So if we've collectively as a society allowed a working model to be dismantled should we then in our ignorance create another anew or reassemble the former and conform to it?

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#135
In reply to #131

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 3:01 PM

Sorry...I must be unusually dense today. I have no idea what you mean. What was the old model?

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#136
In reply to #135

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 3:08 PM

You must be... the old model that was in use during the industrial revolution...or education prior to 1910 which produced capable minds. The tenet's [critical thinking] of which have been eroded by the agenda to dumb down America by you know who.

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#139
In reply to #136

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 4:44 PM

I don't personally know many folks who were educated before 1910. My grandfather got his education in the just after 1910, and had a long career as a professor of physics. He was certainly smart and well educated, although by the time I was old enough to appreciate it he had slipped a bit. My dad was educated in the 30's and 40's, and no doubt he was smarter than I am.

All I know about the earlier generations you speak of comes from reading books they wrote. I certainly think Darwin was a powerful thinker, and an extraordinary writer, but reading works that have passed the test of time means reading through a filter that has removed much of the trivial writing from the period, perhaps creating a false impression. Mark Twain comes from the right time period, and while he wasn't much of a scientist or businessman, he was certainly a thinker and he wrote well. I assume that his rather dismal view of the human condition was based on his observations of real people alive at the time, and the gist of those observations seems to be that most people are fools. So I really don't know how to evaluate your premise.

Maybe you are only referring to higher education, and it is likely that since only a small fraction of the people had access to the limited number of slots, that the schools were more selective.

I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of you-know-whos bent on dumbing down America, but I have no idea whether you and I would agree about who they are.

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#140
In reply to #139

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 5:22 PM

You really do need an education...the system which educated you has left you without the intellectual means to unravel its perversion of applied learning criteria.

Just as understanding of the current systems defective nature requires it's unraveling so it was in a manner of attrition which it was developed.

Yes I'll agree those whom graduated with and 8th grade education did not learn of binary but they had the tools to figure it out, unlike high school today were one can graduate illiterate.

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#141
In reply to #140

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 6:53 PM

The tenet's [critical thinking] of which have been eroded by the agenda to dumb down America by you know who.

It's Voldemort, isn't it? Is it Voldemort?

Perhaps Guest is making a veiled reference to the fact that until the early 20th century few Americans attended high school. Most towns did not have a high school. The typical American would become functionally literate, learn a smattering of arithmetic, then go off to work in the coal mines and die at the age of 27. They weren't any dumber or smarter then than we are today, nor was elementary education better; however, in the early twentieth century education for most Americans was expanded from five or six years to twelve years, without much substance added. Voldemort's agenda, clearly.

Guest got his education in a system that clearly gave him the intellectual means to construct unnecessarily obfusticating assertions about applied learning criteria, but did not equip him with the basic tools needed to properly use an apostrophe. He is, therefore, an excellent example of a person who has been narrowly educated; he may have a deep understanding of the history of education in the United States, but is unable to write clearly and concisely. He uses lots of five-dollar words that he clearly looked up in a thesaurus, trying hard to sound intellectual but instead making himself sound like Don King. Ask him to explain the shape of train wheels, or define piety, or calculate the volume of a cardioid segment, and he would be at a loss, as would most people. Yet most people would not insult others for not grasping the meaning of an intentionally cryptic statement. Maybe "mutual respect" was taught in one of those classes Guest missed.

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#143
In reply to #141

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 7:44 PM

You wrote "typical American would become functionally literate, learn a smattering of arithmetic, then go off to work in the coal mines and die at the age of 27. "

While that may be true of a number of early 20th century Americans, I would hardly call it an accurate description of the typical American.

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#145
In reply to #141

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 8:05 PM

Thesaurus nope don't use them, apostrophe does get out of place occasionally.

Forgive me no insult intended nor intentionally cryptic just saves a lot of typing and is a poor excuse too.

I've seen that shape in the sand after she stood up and we've remained together having been faithful through the convolutions of life.

You are correct that most Americans did not attend secondary school as we know it but their 8 year 5th grade education was not of a simple nature.

We can't really conceptualize the normal lives of people during the late eighteen hundreds because it was virtually another world compared to today. Before WWI the USA didn't have a global mindset, not even hemispherical. The USA was paying with non-debt currency; greenbacks and there was a lot good and bad compared to today but not everybody worked in coal mines, none of my people did.

If we don't correct the wrong attitudes about learning and we don't adjust our thinking to conform in a fashion conducive of continuous growth we fail each other. Programs like no-child left behind are fine in principle but principles were lost in translation through the bureaucracy at best. Incorrigible students not wanting to catch up should not burden the system.

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#138
In reply to #131

Re: Unscientific America: Different Rifts, Still Divided

10/21/2009 4:04 PM

Dear Bwire, I'm going to attempt to answer this question, instead of simply thanking you for the George Orwell quote, which implied I was intelligent to point out the handle to crank for pivoting towards critical thinking.

Your question is one I have struggled with in relation to the US government, of which I am still a citizen, the UN, and my invention Transcendia.

I did create Transcendia as a model nation out of despair over the state and direction of the US as illustrated by its history of failed morality and wasted courage demarked by its conduct and use of force in Vietnam.

So I did want to create something anew, and looked for precedents, finding only Pan Am, Hong Kong, and most perfectly Disneyland. -Company, Country, Work of Art... Actually China has been doing alright in combining the edicts, up to a point.

I have posited that Disneyland ought to have as much stature at the UN as the Vatican does.

In the case of The League of Nations, and then its reinvention as the UN, it worked to prevent our annialiation during a political situation where there were only two superpowers.

Now the UN is about half itself for it has not conformed to the changes in power balance, and is skewed towards corruptions of its mission to prevent apocalyptic riot.

The UN now seems incapable of defending or enhancing the rights of women.

The US seems to be willing to sell out to the Taliban.

This sort of stuff happening makes me sick to my stomach, and want still to pick from the best of mankind's achievements to reinvent according to what is possible eclectically, though I recognize real force and the use of it lead by leaders willing to put men in harms way is required.

There are no new great ideals. We know what good and bad really is. It does look like the UN is currently failing to enforce these bedrock ideals, and do wonder if it ought to be replaced with a working institution, or reinvented.

Too bad it has a great name, but lacks an effective army or courts, and whines about water, while allowing travesties.

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