Engineers and Long-Term Unemployment

That's great advice, Jake. Thanks for blogging with CR4!

When you join LinkedIn (or if you're already there), I hope you'll join our CR4 Group there. One of the benefits of joining that group is that it pulls in all of the posts from CR4's Engineering Careers forum. That's the forum where employers post jobs on CR4 - and where you can meet recruiters such as Jake Briggs.

Moose

I have over a year of unemployment not including the work I picked up as a contractor.

During my interviews, I was told my experience level was more than they were looking for, and that I would become bored with the position.

Or.

This is a very condensed version.

They would make an offer that was equivalent to what I made 25 years ago and justified it with the market was situated with mechanical engineers/designers.

I asked would they also use my industrial electronics background....

the reply was most diffidently.

I then asked why is there value in it on your part but not mine.

I am basically holding out as long as possible because I have been employed at a reduced level with conditions of after the probationary period 90 days, adjustments would be made.

And after positive informal reviews, 20 months after the initial hiring and no formal review, due to a number of varying excuses, I left.

I have seen as of lately, a more one on one process with a more level playing field happening.

p911

Love it! Great advice!

sounds good...but one thing i don't get...our pollies have us to believe that there is a shortage of scientists, engineers and mathematitions. So where is the discrepancy?

there is a sever shortage of engineers, chemists etc in the teaching profession. Why is this? No matter how skilled in industry a new hire as a teacher gets low wages compared to old hires who get $80,000 here in Toronto. New is about$35,000.

Why is this? The teachers union wants it this way to resrict entrants at the bottom to ensure scarcity at the top, so the only people you get teaching maths and science in high school are insufferable drones whose task seems to be the prevention of the development of smart kids into scientists.

We are reaching the point with electronics that many new EE grads have a hard time getting jobs. The use of large scale intergartion has reducd the need for design engineers and increased the need for programmers of the smart part of these small LSI chips, which have an enormous degree of complexity.

We are degenerating into a society of consumers

Re: "our (politicians) have us to believe that there is a shortage..."

...and THERE's the answer to the situation....

Legislation will create more jobs than you can shake a stick at! Now that automotive engineers have raised the bar, "for Safety's sake", this altogether brilliant and imaginative "Sky's-the-Limit" thinking needs to be brought into every other aspect of our lives.

Laws must be enacted in order to prevent the billions of hours and dollars lost each and every year due to people crashing carelessly into one-another while entering and exiting unsafe doorways.

Engineers will be put to work immediately designing alarm systems to warn others that somebody is approaching a doorway. Then, when the door is opened, a different alarm will sound, indicating the escalation of the situation. Simultaneously, alarms will sound and lights will flash to warn others who might be approaching the Danger-Zone to stop and read the flashing-back-lit posters (strategically placed all around all entrances and exits), which delineate the appropriate actions to take in order to insure everone's Safety.

The next step will be, of course, to make sure that this level of Safety is afforded to everyone, whether they have doorways or not. Hey; some people are so short that they can't see over the cubicle-dividers. This is where 40% of lost time accidents occur! When they come racing out of their cube into a hallway, it's inevitable that an overloaded file clerk will be there to trip on them and wind-up "shuffling" 2840 pages (all un-numbered of course) of time sensitive material --- 12 hours lost to getting it all reorganized.

So : IR 'beepers' will be required at every opening through which a human being can fit ... with the accompanying flashing lights , of course. And, just to make sure there is no room for error, shoes must be fitted with beepers to offer a telltale warning when others are approaching from any-which-way.

The shoes, of course, will have special sensors that detect when the wearer is approaching a doorway. If the angle of approach appears to be such that the wearer is going to go through said doorway, the wearer's cell phone will be sent a text message, forewarning them of the possible dangers lurking ahead.

The "Safe-Friends" networks will spring-up like wildfire, wherein fellow office workers can LIKEWISE receive txt-msgs warning them of potential trouble-spots that they might wish to avoid.

Escalators ~ elevators ~ revolving doors ~ (oh, drool !) ~

THEN there are so many other safety aspects with which to comply. Sensor arrays to provide "pre-smoke" detection of any material that has reached a specific threshold just below its combustion temperature...

LED car roofs that announce to helo-police what speed the car is traveling...

shoot...we've only just begun, and there's already a viable growth industry SIMPLY to produce the mandatory retrofits to existing shoes and car-roofs...!

Find a candidate who will support legislating our way to more jobs and more growth and get behind him/her all the way~!

K.L.P.T.B.T.E.

In the USAF, the phrase is: YGBSM!! Translation not required.

This, most likely, is the wave of the future...

If any of you are old enogh to remember Walt Kelly's "Pogo":

"We have met the enemy; and he are us".

r/s

Gar

Its like any other country, they keep saying it enough times and people end up believing them.

Yep, a cynical attitude will yield a bunch of job offers...

Steve - I can afford to be cynical. I'm retired and don't expect to be job hunting in the forseable future.

My cynicism comes from having worked for some real turkeys at one time or another. My comments nos. 1,2,3,and 4 were learned the hard way while working for said creatures. Of course you don't show your cynicism to your employers, past, present or future. But as a personal attribute a little quiet personal cynicism is a necessary survival component. It enables you to see problems more clearly.

A super positive attitude will get you to thinking that every mistake your boss makes has a noble and logical set of factors behind it. That is like the assumption we often make that the materials we specify in our designs will be free of defects. A pro proceeds with a more realistic view.

Ed Weldon

Excellent comments Ed. Just wanted to include a few more. When I was Dir. of Eng. of a small 20 Million per year Electronics firm 18 years ago, it became obvious to me that too many people fall into a category that believes that even 15-20 years of experience says it all. In reality what they are actually saying is "it was one year of experience 15-20 times". People who get to stay think "outside the box" and never forget their major purpose for being there is to solve a "problem". One of my PHD,s actually thought he should be revered simply because of having achieved the rank of Captain in the Coast Guard. It was difficult and impossible to convince him that we needed performance in the EE area and not just to admire his Rank. This is not neg about the the Coast Guard.

AFarmer

AFarmer -- Interesting how at 15 years in the engineering game a lot of us think we are a lot better at it than we really are. If you're like me you get to the 30 or 35 year point and look back at how little you actually knew at 15 and wonder how you ever survived. I attribute mine as a case of energy and enthusiasm; not always well placed.

I'm not sure every engineer should be expected to think out of the box unless that fits your particular style of management. Sometimes you need the guy that plugs along following the accepted routine. Usually in smaller companies each engineer wears several hats and a breadth of experience is a big asset. Often creative thinking requires some fairly deft management.

And then there is the rare (and sad) case of the manager who habitually reserves all the creative thinking for himself. Survival in such situation sees the subordinate engineer making the wrong suggestions just to maneuver the boss into that "Ah ha" that his ego so desperately craves.

Your Coast Guard veteran sounds like a case of someone who fell off the career ladder because he couldn't handle the training assignment that followed his promotion from Commander, where he likely skippered a big cutter, to Captain and a duty assignment that likely was more about training and dealing with administrative minutia and less about being in command.

I learned a bit about this career pattern when I was in the Navy for near 4 years and my last assignment was as the most junior officer on an admiral's staff. Once some of these officers have been through the "command at sea" experience they do not do well returning to an environment where they are getting detailed directions every day on what to do. But it's all part of a well developed career path for a peacetime military service. I imagine the Coast guard operates much the same way as the Navy. The lesson in this is that you do the job you're told to do as best as you can even if you think you should be doing something else that better fits your abilities as you see them.

The last company I worked for was in the semiconductor equipment business. In the various product business groups the top managers were all low level vice presidents. It was well understood that the primary reason they got that title was to put them in the right negotiating position for both the formalities and the practical dealing with important Asian customers. My son who also worked in that industry cynically refers to these VP's as "just somebody's bitch".

Ed Weldon

Interesting how at 15 years in the engineering game a lot of us think we are a lot better at it than we really are. If you're like me you get to the 30 or 35 year point and look back at how little you actually knew at 15 and wonder how you ever survived. I attribute mine as a case of energy and enthusiasm; not always well placed.

I don't think nobody likes to think they peaked at 15, 20 or 30 years experience. And when one talks about experience. Its talking about practical experience, not a position that you look at the clock waiting for time hid quiting time so you can to go home. I'm talking about gaining valued practical experience.

Usually in smaller companies each engineer wears several hats and a breadth of experience is a big asset. Often creative thinking requires some fairly deft management.

Sometimes known as Organized Chaos

Once some of these officers have been through the "command at sea" experience they do not do well returning to an environment where they are getting detailed directions every day on what to do. But it's all part of a well developed career path for a peacetime military service.

So true, I worked at a shipyard that gave jobs to those carreer retired navy. They did not know how to be efficent managers in the private sector.

Ed,

I pretty much agree.

!.) I agree with........but given the same tasks now that when I was first out of college or even half my age. one can accomplish it in 2/3 the man hours, were the project that is more accuracy, with better results. But it is very hard to quantify it.

2.) that has always been true.....nothing new there.

3.) I like to think all in the Field has the integrity, to correct a substandard or illegal situation or leave. You do not find many people that has the guts to to that.

4.) see number 2

5.) An attitude that you are always learning and improving....not becoming complacent.

One thing never let the employer see you sweat, in times like this.

I also have seen that compare to the 80's even if you have a interest in engineer, and can act alot of incompetent people (non-engineers playing engineering roles have been hired) and have spooked hiring managers that are non-engineers.

And some of these hiring manager have difficulty in corrected their blunder. questionable

I suggest that lot of flexibility is required regarding qualification and attitude to wards getting a new job. If you feel that I am a qualified Mechanical Engineer then how I can accept the job which is not a Mechanical Engineering job, then it may be difficult to get the job you desire. I have heard many top engineers have jumped in the financial sector where there are good opportunities and better pay packages. It is basic intelligence level of the person who is good in any sector. If you could become engineer you can become good financial expert too because you have been blessed with higher level of intelligence.

I have heard some of the engineering students in the top universities here could cram up criminal law code, just for fun, which is part of Law eduction. More over if situation is so bad for getting the jobs then "Beggars can not be Choosers". (I hope I am not hurting one's feelings).

Excellent answer!

KER Recruiter, thank you for the good advice about employment. I'm a big sour puss when it comes to this subject because I'm one of those middle aged overqualified types (if it were only true).

But, I do recognize good advice when I see it. Advice like this has helped to keep me employed and contributing.

Unfortunately for me, I'm in a temporary position that runs out in a few months (hopefully something permanent will come up here). It's a little scary because I know how the job market is here in my area of the US (SW Louisiana).

Out of curiosity though, how is the engineering job market in other parts of the US or around the world?

I got laid off from a full time chemist R&D position, and couldn't find any similar positions anywhere around. But I found opportunities as a contract worker and consultant. I changed from what I thought I was, to what the market was looking for. "Change brings opportunity to those who are prepared to accept it" is a principle learned during a reorganization for growth. If nobody else would hire me, I'd hire myself. If I didn't have confidence in myself, how could I expect somebody else to? Contract worker was a temporary bridge and learning experience to my next change to forming my own company and running it. Sounds impressive, doesn't it? I'm the Head Honcho! But I work in a garage, sweep and mop, and carry out the trash as needed. I put together a research lab and pilot plant from scavenged, surplus equipment. I networked with colleagues who were also laid off, who had complimentary business skills that meshed (not duplicated) mine. We assembled a loose collection of R&D, marketing, sales, production and financial expertise, each element working from a garage or spare bedroom at home. I do R&D work for several small start-ups. I have a page on a chemical consultants network site that draws international traffic, and I've done projects over the net or phone from clients world wide. Its not the way they taught in business school, but it evolved out of necessity. No, I'm not wealthy, but I pay my bills and have enough left over for a little fun every now and then. I'm still learning, and love what I do!

If you take a long term view, ask local university science depts if they are aware of any new start-up companies who are working in an area of your experience. You might offer them your experience as a consultant for now, and build some equity in the company over time, if its a good match. Start-ups spun off from universities tend to be staffed by very sharp people who could tax your skills, rather than consider you over-qualified.

The politicians tell us that we don't have enough scientists and engineers because you can NEVER have enough.

The US Air Force is one place for American engineers with very short rap sheets to look. The software organization I now belong to is hiring as fast as it can. That's not very fast because it just takes a while to get someone on - as a prospective employee you won't get hired "tomorrow." But once you're hired you can actually start planning your long-term career. It is so liberating to not have to worry about needing to find a job three or so years from now.

Further, due to security logistics and developmental policy, overtime is sparing. In order to support your working after-hours, the facility must be opened, entrances guarded, etc. We don't release the system until it's RIGHT - that's just downright weird feeling. And due to employment law, any overtime is fully compensated (comp time or extra pay). I never saw THAT in the private sector.

I can't say for sure, but I suspect the US DOD as a whole is working to improve its "organic" technological capabilities. There are probably many openings for engineers of all flavors department-wide. Over-reliance on contractors has presented subtle (and not-so-subtle) problems to the government. Combine that with the fact that the only thing moving in the economy right now is the government, and it's a safe harbor for competent people - or the not-so-competent ones with the right connections.

Being mobile improves your chances of finding a job. I've spent many more months unemployed in the past simply because I live in a pretty nice part of the country and didn't want to move.

I haven't been happier in my career.

Another item I did not mention is that you need to look where no one else is...

My company has not put out an ad or hired a recruiter for as long as I have known them (10 years?) that I am aware of, and have definitely not since I have been an employee with them (2 years). However, we hire whenever we come across a person in the industry that is a perfect fit (that's how I got here), that is referred (often by one of us already here), and/or that inquires about opportunities out of the blue. We don't hire more than we do hire, of course, but if everything is right, we go forward no matter what the current job market is like.

You very rarely have someone show up looking for a job that is a perfect fit for the position on the day it was decided to fill the position. You are better off telling the sales guys to kick it up a notch to support another (qualified) mouth to feed than to feed an unqualified mouth to keep a seat warm.

If you are as good as you think you are, then there will be someone who will recognize it and take you on board!

Volunteer: OK not a bad idea. There is always work for people who are willing to do it for free.

Become the Expert: Again not bad advice.

Get LinkedIn: Up until this point you were doing OK. I would like people who are registered on LinkedIn to tell me how it actually helps. I am registered on LinkedIn and I would not recommend anyone that I personally don't know, afterall it is not like you "know" the person (yes you read their profile and they sound great but is this a show or is it for real - now before I start getting bashed for this, remember that everything you read on the internet is not true, if it was then I would buy one of those over unity machines and make a fortune). As far as I am concerned a recruiter (no matter how good) cannot get you a job unless there is a job to be offered.

Your post reminded me of the song by Meat Loaf: Two out of three ain't bad.

Recruiters don't find people jobs! I find people! If you have been looking for work for a year, but know one knows your looking for a new job and your hiding underneath a rock...how do I find you? Roughly 70% of people find there job by networking and that includes recruiters like me who are looking to network to find talent! Case in example...An unemployed Supply Chain Professional who we did business with many years ago had dinner with my manager for networking purposes. My manager contacts me and introduces me to her, we talk in-depth with each other about career goals, etc, etc. We keep in contact with each other...2 months later a new client of ours mentioned they have an immediate need for a Supply Chain Manager with a strong technical background. Guess who received a call, 3 interviews and a job offer extended to her TODAY?!!!! Networking works, don't let anyone tell you different. This is what I do for a living! GET LINKEDIN!

I average about one to two inquiries or job posting emails per week from my contacts on linked in, and I am not even looking for a job. But if you dont join a group you wont get that....

We needed to hire an accounting mgr and a sales person. It costs $800 to run an ad in the local metro paper. I belong to about 15 groups on linked in. I identified a dozen candidates. The one we hired started March 1. We had all the info we needed and I had made several 'in network' reference checks before we called the person to interview. Their in person interview confirmed the facts, and looked like a good fit. Thats what LinkedIn does. milo

Here is interesting article on the following link appeared in USA To-Day:-

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-01-townhangingon_N.htm?se=yahoorefer&POE=click-refer.

Please read and comment.

I love how some of the comments at the bottom blame Obama and the democrats. Others blame W. Bush and the republicans.

Did any of these people actually read the article? It says the company was bought out in 1987 and it was at that point that working conditions became so horrible which lead to strikes. I don't remember Bush 1 or 2 being in office 1987.

I only skimmed the article but I really wish people would quit pointing the finger at the opposite political party. All that does is give people a false hope that their political party will liberate them from their current situation.

I love how some of the comments at the bottom blame Obama and the democrats. Others blame W. Bush and the republicans.

I do not know what separates the two parties anyways when it comes to job creation by the time one takes effect another party is in the house.

I honestly don't think the politicians are the problem. We are. The politicians are just doing what they have to do to get reelected. Our problem is that we want everything and don't want taxes. And I'm not talking about Healthcare, I'm talking about Social Security. Here's how I see it.

Baby boomers expand entitlement programs in the 60s, then they cut taxes in the 80s and use the money they're paying into Social Security to cover the shortfall. Now they demand that we don't touch Social Security even though it's bankrupting us and instead want everything else cut.

I say screw that, I'm 35, I'll never see Social Security, why the hell should I pay for it? I say cut Social Security completely. Look at the graph below.

Completely cutting Social Security alone would save 700 billion dollars. Wow, next thing you know we've got a small deficit, soon no deficit, all without raising taxes.

(Please note, this is an "Reductio Ad Absurdum", I don't actually think we should cut Social Security.) What I'm pointing out is that even the most fervent Anti-entitlements advocates somehow believe they are "entitled" to Social Security. Point out that they and their employer haven't nearly paid in what they will get out of Social Security, point out that for years the government spent the Social Security funds because taxes were too low to pay for everything, point out that the current generation is paying in and everyone pretty much understands the benefits will be cut by the time we retire so we are being taxed more heavily for being young (basically to cover the previous generations SS shortfall), point all these things out and they still feel "entitled" to Social Security. That in a nutshell captures the hypocrisy of the anti-entitlements crowd.

However, if you are so anti-entitlement that you refuse social security as a matter of principle then you have my deepest respect.

But unfortunately I don't actually know anyone who lives what they say when it comes to entitlements.

"I honestly don't think the politicians are the problem. We are. The politicians are just doing what they have to do to get reelected. Our problem is that we want everything and don't want taxes."

For once, I agree with you. Mostly.

I think the politicians are as much of the problem as we are. We seem to blame them for everything instead of taking some responsibility for ourselves.

I say this speaking from my project management experience. You want a 60hp pump, 200 feet of pipe with valves and other fitting (all 321 stainless steel, fully insulated, and painted), and a relief valve with discharge line. Now, you're only giving me $150,000 to do it, well what do you want to cut?

I think if politicians are going to manage the budget then they shouldn't spend without considering the source of the funds. Unfortunately, I agree that politicians are only doing what they need to get reelected.

By the way, where did you find those charts?

"By the way, where did you find those charts?"

The internet.

Really? Well then it must be true (just kidding).

Maybe we should start putting a term limit on all congressional members.

Roger good graphs, but it was not just cutting taxes in the 80's. SS was in trouble way before that. In the 70's, particularly the late 70's Social Security has been having solvency problems even then. Nothing to do with the eighties. At the time they just stole from Peter to pay Paul at the time and it just keeps on moving up.

The problem with SS is without government support is very similar to a pyramid operations. You need more and more new people to support the upper portion that is living longer.

They try to offset this by imposing to move the retirement age higher, but thats only a temporary fix.

Social security works as long as population increase sufficently.

I have always felt SS should be eliminated, and it was talked about since the 70's instead of putting into SS to put it into private retirement. But can you imagine, about what happened in the 2000 when the investment bubble burst, and enron and madoff. What I see the government wanted one to take out IRA's while saying when you cash out you'll have less taxes when you retire that its worth to have an IRA. Congress sees alot of money there that can be taxed, and I have a feeling that congress will be taxing that just as heavily or more so than if you just saved it.

Much as I believe you guys have important points about grand issues facing our nation I don't think such discussion is contributing much to the discussion of "Engineers and Long Term Unemployment" and answering the question "how do I improve my chances of obtaining a position?"

Let's remember that there are a few CR-4 members out there that are unemployed and are still looking for this topic to give them some new ideas.

Here's one. It's a minor one; but I think it is valid. This came out of a discussion I had with a 40 something friend currently looking for work in a technical trade. If you are at the age where you need reading glasses get yourself a pair of conventional glasses with graduated lenses rather than the half eye reading type you look over the top of for distant vision. Then wear them to the interview. They will tend to hide the natural aging appearance of the skin immediately around your eyes. If the interview talk gets around to your glasses don't hesitate to mention that your glasses provide good eye protection for things you do that produce eye hazards. I'll leave it up to the experts on interviewing and the phenomena of first impressions to comment on whether it is better for your lenses to be photo darkening type or not, especially if you are coming into the interview from a bright sunny environment.

Ed Weldon

Ed,

Much as I believe you guys have important points about grand issues facing our nation I don't think such discussion is contributing much to the discussion of "Engineers and Long Term Unemployment" and answering the question "how do I improve my chances of obtaining a position?"

IMO, Thats true....but in all the discussion if limited to the OP, threads would be short thats why we have off-topic. And addressing unemployment reasons is not all dress for the interview to look intelligent. Acting definitely helps, but there are alot of good actors out there that burnt hiring manager. I still like to think first impressions are good to open the door, (you only get one first impression), but substance is still more important. I for one have been long unemployed. I'll tell you during an interview the interviewer asked me a question that had absolutely nothing to do with the job, Just to see how one reacts off the script....when I've done that, you can really uncover alot about a person when you leave the script he memorized.. And considering that most of this is off-topic, is a hint that is a matter of choice to read. And that is why we have off-topic.

p911

Heres an interesting thread from the past on the Phillips curve and Phelps thoery on the **inflation/unemployment relationship

**inflation and the economy are tied together but they are not the same.

Not good! Something needs to change!

I have two thought on this based off of my personal experience and what I have seen posted on here and job search sites.

1) I think engineers need to quit looking at their areas of expertise and broaden their horizons to other areas. There are always environmental and sustainability engineer positions open for those who have enough engineering experience. EPA and state environmental departments always have a hard time finding engineers to fill these positions. Many states have put in licensing exemptions for their environmental departments. The US military has had the same difficulties filling these positions. Granted most state governments are not hiring at the moment, but the federal government is (mostly military civilians). Almost any engineering degree (e.g. civil, chemical, industrial, or mechanical) and experience can be converted to environmental or sustainability engineering experience. These positions usually start at around $60-70k in the private sector with little or no experience. Last I looked EPA start at $75k.

Then there is also the Environmental, Health and Safety manager positions that I would love to see engineers filling. As an environmental engineer inspecting facilities in my state, it would greatly help if engineers were filling these positions and calculating the pollutants.

Their are environmental boot camp classes available online for a very reasonable price. The biggest part of environmental work is learning the laws, rules and regulations. These are free to view (US federal and the states). US EPA is under 40 CFR along with the CAA and CWA. States are usually covered in the Administrative Code (if they have environmental rules). AP-42 has emission factors for air emissions. Purdue University now has a SME Green Manufacturing Specialist Cert. classes available. It only takes 1-2 yrs of college to get an environmental management masters at most schools. This will give the person something to do instead of sitting at home watching tv or playing video games.

My point here is think outside the box. I did! I came from residential design and site development and was laid off. After 3 yrs in this field, I am a Sr Environmental Engineer (title) with a stable career (even though I got moved from pollution prevention opportunity assessor (job description) to air inspector and enforcement manager (job description) to save the state money and fill a critical position).

2) People need to understand and be willing to accept a reduction in pay during these difficult times. As long as the take-home pay is higher than the person's unemployment, the job is an advantage.

These are the philosophies that I used when I was laid off. I ended up with a new career. Hopefully, this helps someone get back on their feet.

Great response!

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