It all depends on your time scale. In time the sun will go dark and the earth will stop turning and present one face to the sun and will slowly spiral inwards, along with all the other orbiting bodies.

I am very worried

Don't worry, the Sun, as most stars in this region of the Milky Way, is still engulfing more mass M from the surrounding space than the energy E = C^2*M that delivers to the space.

What a relief!!

(sigh)

-e

Tom Kreher wrote: It means that we can count upon a continual force produced by the air mass moving across the earth and there is a gazillion gallons of water vapor much higher than the surface of the earth. The weight of this water vapor is another tremendous potential energy.

REPLY: While I agree with the basic premise of putting wind to work; I am somewhat less enthused about the concept of applying the concept of "economy of scale" to these developments.

I think we have become ensnared by the cost accounting mentality into always thinking "bigger is better". This in turn has led to nation wide pipeline and power grid construction, ever larger trucks, trains, and ships, not to mention air planes.

The thought of loading 800 or 1000 passengers onjto a single plane boggles my imagination. Pretty soon it will take longer to communte to the air port and board the plane than the trip across an ocean. Is it really worth it?

Wind power has been used for doing heavy work for centuries. Grist mills and water pumps in Holland have demonstrated the efficacy of capturing light winds to do heavy work. Then the cost accountants got involved and pretty soon these local wind powered grist mills were declared obsolete. They were replaced first by steam engines belching black smoke, and later by "infernal" combustion engine powered mills of greater capacity and power. Unfortunately this now also meant the farmer had to transport his grain over longer distances; eventually leading him to use trucks spewing noxious fumes and smog producing exhausts. Who won that round??

It used to be that only wind driven ships were considered suitable for carrying prized tea from China to England. Gradually the cost accountants persuaded shipowners that steam and now diesel powered ships were more economical. Right up to the beginning of WW2 sailing ships carried grain from Australia to Europe. The grains ships were then still considered the cheapest way to move a low $$/unit value cargo from one side of the globe to the other. So why the changed perspective today? Could it be the cost accountants havce once more distorted our true perspective?

A wind jammer will move a cargo round the world with less pollution and expenditure of fossil fuel than any other method. Maybe we need to reconsider this option. And it uses free air, a renewable resource. Modern naval design can produce superb sailing ships far superior to what sailed in past centuries.

Elnav

Elnav, ...does speed mean anything to you. with todays post 10,000 teu boxships, per unit cost of many items is getting lower while time getting it across to the end user is getting shorter and shorter. Sometime ago, only high value(common definition) items are air flown, these days people fly pipes and other crazy stuffs across continents to meet various project schedules!!!

...by the time your ultra modern wind jammer gets its cargo across to the customers, some other guy would have earned handsome interest on his sales return! besides how big can a wind jammer get(with prevailing technology) and how much cargo can it carry!?

I'm well aware of what is happening in the shipping world. However for bulk cargoes its more like a pipeline with each ship being like an packet. As long as the pipeline or conveyor belt keeps moving the cargo keeps showing up at the destination.

But your comment about speed simply points up one of the key problems with our western society. The hurrieder we are the behinder we get from an ecological POV. Demanding ever increasing speed and profits is precisely why we have created such a global ecological mess in the first place. and the reason why we are running out of energy. And just because COSTCO or MAERSK can deliver containers faster doesn't mean I want to buy that GD@*! chinese built junk in any case. Its not quality.

It is also a question of money: the products that are in a container on a ship have a value. this money is dead, until you can have it sold to a customer.

The longer you need to have it transported between the production site and the customer, the more money that you need to have in your production.

So at the end of the year, purchasers stop buying in. the money comes back onto the bank account and they did a nice job, bonus time. Next order in January needs to be flown over as we can't wait for the products to arrive. This cost is booked somewhere else.

At the end, we, the customer doesn't see the prices of products drop when production moves from one site to another.

Customers wait that long to order that the one who decides that he will fly in the goods has the job. He was not the cheapest but next time his colleagues will do the same. Strangely, this is still cheaper than making it in Europe or North America.

Gwen wrote:It is also a question of money: the products that are in a container on a ship have a value. this money is dead, until you can have it sold to a customer.

REPLY

Are you saying that we must place profit as supreme and allow a few to despoil the earth for the rest of the people just so that they can make a bigger profit?

So far I have not seen any suggestion that our so called advanced culture should perhaps moderate its rapacious appetite for energy. Instead we are saying that the remaining nine tenths of the world's polulation should emulate our ways and despoil the plane t further just so a few can reap ever increasing profits.

I'm not saying that we can fool around with the planet to gain more profit. It is just a constatation: decision makers do it. Only a few are worried about the future.

Constatation: I had to look it up, and English is almost my only language!

Reply to #62 - are you thinking of sharing it with us? I've never heard of it either.

Constatation: an assumption basic to an argument.

Not to be confused with a malady sometimes cured with prunes.

Thanks

Well, spell check didn't knew it either, and I still don't know how to say it in English

My usually very good computer dictionary didn't find it, and its not in my Websters. Ken must have an unabridged dictionary! I hadn't heard the word before either. I assume Ken is right, that it sounds like constipation, with the accent on the next-to-last syllable.

Dick

It comes directly from French (I think -- from the verb constatater: notice, observe) but is a perfectly good English word and can be found in unabridged and online dictionaries. According to the dictionary below, the accent is actually on the second syllable. I'd guess that in French, the last syllable (sion rather than shun) would be slightly accented over the others, with maybe a hint of accent on the first. Gwen would know the French pronunciation.

http://www.wordwebonline.com/en/CONSTATATION

Thanks for the link - I'll let an English major decide how to interpret the pronunciation guide. My second language is Spanish (Chilean variety) so that tends to influence my pronunciation of words I've never heard - in English or otherwise. When I learned Spanish (in the Peace Corps), I forgot virtually all the French I supposedly learned in high school, so maybe Gwen can tell us about the French etymology and pronunciation... Dick

Well the word comes indeed from the French verb constater. English (and Flemish) is full with French words.

It could be that the American version has lost several of them (but has gained from so many other languages)

It is like the Belgian French, which is influenced with Flemish.

I'm really happy that the word is found to be OK to be used here.

How the French mixed in can be routed back to Hastings.

Thanks - I think I've got it!

Dick

By George I think he's got it! The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain.

u think I could get 2 no about this because I am doing a report for 9th grade I am trying 2 pass this class next year i might take it again so could tell me about this

If I were your teacher, I'd say: "If you want to pass, use whole words. The number 2 is NOT a word. There are at least three different correct ways to spell words that sound the same as the number 2, and you need to know which to use in each appropriate setting."

Likewise 'u' is not a word. At at the beginning of a sentence, it should be capitalized...

Your method of writing may be acceptable when 'texting' to other teenagers, but not here, and not to get a passing grade!

Please accept this as an invitation, rather than a rejection!

Once English and French get here to the US, we have a way of slaughtering both.

Pontiac still makes a "Grand Prix". We pronounce the "Grand" English style, but the "Prix" French style.

We also sometimes spend time at the pool on a "chaise lounge" which should be "chaise longue" (long chair). Somehow, someone swapped the letters around (because he/she thought the meaning should be lounge chair) and it stuck.

And we're wild for French fries, which are really from Belgium (but we never serve them with mayonnaise).

Ken,

French fries are a French invention, but Belgians improved it and made it their favourite style of serving potato. But it is unhealty, thats why we never asked to change the name. (Chocolate is better)

These blogs on perpetual motion are endless, they could go on for even.

Gwen

I do not know about you, but I have met some French guys who were real prix...

I remember after WW2 Japanese stuff was shoddy and cheap. The Japanese learned all about quality and now make stuff on average superior to the USA and the rest of the world. So that even after their wages came up to and went higher than USA wages they carried on. Korea followed

Now China is at the low end of that curve, and they have watched Japan and Korea and are avoiding some of their mistakes.

Even now I see better Made in China tools than I saw 5 years ago. Another 5 years and they will be there and with their controlled wage rates and exchange rates they can afford to put 5 hours into a product to out one hour and since the raw materials cost the same +/-, they will kick us to death more so than now on products in both quality and design. Design is not so good now. Some Chinese appliances look funny, but they will soon fix that.

In the long run all workers all over the world will get the same wages and use the same currency...200 years? This adjustment will take time. This will make a lof of chinese goods non economic on freight grounds alone.

US workers need to drop their wages/benefits and compete. Not to minimum wages, but down from some of these exalted levels that have effectively killed off the Auto business here,

Aurizon wrote: they will kick us to death more so than now on products in both quality and design. Design is not so good now. Some Chinese appliances look funny, but they will soon fix that.

REPLY

I'm not so sure about the design part. I have worked with both Chinese and Korean co workers who admit the education system used in those countries represses individual thinking traits. Their style of education makes for conformist outlooks and a way of thinking that makes it much harder to think outside the box. That is a key ingredient for innovative design and inventing something new.

I agree with the comment about China surpassing the western world in sheer production capacity but only when it comes to copying a known design. Unfortunately they will also copy our energy wasteful ways. I doubt they will invent a perpetual motion machine. I don't even know if they would come up with any energy saving technology.

They will adapt and get better. It is true that rote based learning systems are only good for the masses, but large numbers of Chinese students study at universities all over the world, so their design skills will improve and diversity will come to their older methods as parents see tha advantages of other systems.

It won't happen in one generation or even two. By the time the student reaches university level the rote learning patterns are too ingrained to be completely discarded. My colleague who has his Masters degree in Naval Archtecture, and I have discussed this several times. Despite his own desire to break out of the mold, he too suffers from the effects of the system. The level of detailed manufacturing details we have to stipulate for even the most basic of fabrication steps is surprising. And we have someone from here who is experienced in innovative thinking right on site at the Chinese factory. The yard has been in operation for over twenty years but as soon as we add even one new thing it throws them into a tizzy. They only know the old ways dating back a half century. Biggest problem is getting the yard workers to get their head around doing anything new and different. Which is why we will have an ongoing problem achieving a global paradiem shift as it relates to energy consumption and using alternative power sources.

Yes, generations need to change, I agree, it will take time. I can see Chian becoming a huge CO2 smogger over the next generation or two and big problems looming.

...it's COSCO,..and you may want to add APL(American President Line) to the list.

...chinese made junk...elnav, these are goods made by Inc.s from all over the globe IN China. China simply supplies support(all kinds) based on ideas of these Inc. guys.

Btw, China can hear everyone laughing at their quality, but they've got plenty of money(1 trillion USD-foreign reserve) to do something abt. this! (how this(reserve) came about is another story!...check this out here or type in cat,dog,china in youtube.)

I observed 2 interesting earth-conscious efforts this week, 1. Australia would soon phase out the 'good-ole' filament light bulbs, and 2. EU says that big boats are too polluting and diesel engines needs to be replaced --- by eco-friendly energy sources, fuel cell and the like. Since storing hydrogen in such large quatity isn't easy, they'll start off with fuel cell based onboard power generation(to replace current diesel/steam generators). I thought this to be a really great move forward.

The comment on modern society mentality...,well, this phenomenon has a huge and highly dynamic mind of its own! it pretty much boils down to cost and how badly you need stuffs or how easy it is to get them. How different is this when you look at green fuel adoption. Look at hybrid cars(gas or diesel), we all know it's good, uses less fuel/mile or km, but everyone is eyeballing the FIRST COST!!!!!

I think this is where consumer groups comes in, e.g.: ...if you don't bring down the cost on model X hybrid, we won't buy ANY model make from you!!! will this work!!!??

...it's COSCO,..and you may want to add APL(American President Line) to the list.

REPLY

Oh. Mea culpa! maximus culpa!! I have been shopping with the wife too often at that box store. Haven't even got any excuse since I drive by about 500 COSCO containes on the way to the office every day.

And yes APL is also on the list but Maersk is stil tops. Can you tell I'm Danish?? And I see a lot of APL boxes as well.

RMG21 wrote:

...chinese made junk...elnav, these are goods made by Inc.s from all over the globe IN China. China simply supplies support(all kinds) based on ideas of these Inc. guys.

Yeah tell me about it!!

I'm a designer for one of those companies now and have worked for others of the same ilk in the past. So yes; I know exactly what's involved. And I still call it junk!

It's not my job I'm concerned about but the 1000's of other unemployed Americans and Canadians who are not as fortunate.

Elnav

Elnav, how could you possibly compare Maersk with any of the other guys, or any other shipping company for that matter, Maersk is so huge!!! It's own ports/terminals, oil rigs/semi-subs, airline, man this guys are big!

...it's interesting how global Inc. is getting around the 'junk' issue(it affects their business), they set an entire team(from their hometown) to look after everthing(I mean everything!) that has to do with their product quality. These guys simply tell China....'if you don't like the set-up, no deal!'

Btw, chinese steel(shipbuilding) is complete junk(must have improved now!??!),....so bad that some companies follow what I described above with a microscope!

But hey, like I said before, their changing and they got lots of money to do it too!

Abt. lost jobs,...I once read abt some company in states producing disposable chopsticks for the Chinese market!!!! innovation Elnav, ..innovation...

The rotation of our earth within an associated (but unattached) atmosphere causes winds by viscous drag.

NO!

Viscous drag with the earth can only SLOW wind, not create it. Winds are caused by differences in density (temperature and water vapor content) of air, which in turn are caused by different amounts of solar energy absorption in different places on the surface (land, water, ice) of the earth. The winds thus caused are modified by the spin of the earth, mountains, etc.

Independant research shows that the wind is caused by trees with some contribution by birds and cats.

Dogs on the other hand use wind

Also the illusion of perpetual motion, that causes a lot of wind, very warm wind indeed, in fact you might say it is a lot of hot air.

One Mrs. Trellis of North Wales gave the opinion that wind generators are a waste of money, the country's quite windy enough as it is.

And all this time I thought wind was caused by butterflys..

That has got to be the best "dumb road sign" I've seen. One of my favorites that is pretty common actually is "Be Prepared To Stop", as if at other times it's OK not to be prepared to stop.

And all this time I thought wind was caused by butterflys

In the tropics yes, but until we got the cats and birds involved we in the Northern climes were beset by calms every winter, and the dogs were no help at all lying in front of the fire and soaking up every wisp of wind,

That's interesting: the air in the jet stream (and average winds lower down) is "spinning" faster than the solid part of the earth. Can anyone explain (in simple terms, i.e. to me) why that is?

Two words, solar power. Also, "spinning" relative to what? And only faster than the earth relative to a fixed point in space. If I run East then I am "spinning" faster than the Earth, relative to a fixed point in space. If I run west I am "spinning" slower than the Earth. Look Ma, I'm doing ~1000 miles per hour and I'm sitting in my chair. Amazing.

Oh yeah, I also run on solar power. Our reality, every breath and every thought is solar powered. Man that's cool, I mean warm, really warm.

Everything is stardust.

http://www.artsandmusicpa.com/music_pages/woodstock69.htm

Running east vs running west....such a profound effect! I actually convinced a bunch of sports buddies back in school that we needed to try and play our most important basketball games on east-west oriented courts and make sure we're charging east at crunch time because the additional relative speed around the planet would counteract some of the pull of gravity and we'd be able to jump higher...;)

Hey, it wasn't a lie...all true and provable...magnitude of the difference aside, they did seem to be more motivated in certain directions...

...differences in density (temperature and water vapor content) of air...

Strange as it may seem, Bernoulli's principle will effect the air too, not just a wing going through it. wind is a consequence

The energy needed to keep the world alive comes from the sun.

It used tons of material / sec to keep the light on.

This energy keeps the atmosphere warm and creates the pressure differences that invoke wind.

It is known that heavy storms over the pacific, bouncing on the Andes influences the earth rotation.

The earth is not in a perpetual motion, the resistance to stop it is very low, this together with the high mass (= high energy content) keeps us spinning around our axis and the sun.

And even if we would loose 1m per year, it will still take some time before we roast.

You can win energy by the gravitation (eg. hydro systems) but something had to take the mass up first (sun's energy that vaporized water and moved it up in the sky)

There is still no free lunch.

Hi! I would like to know how much it would take to stop earth from spinning?

One case of Bud and a cab fare.

-e

europium responds: "One case of Bud and a cab fare. "

If I recall my college days (or nights rather) it's the case of Bud and bottle of SoCo that makes the world spin, not stop if from spinning. The only way I could make it stop spinning was to run up and down the halls of the dorm knocking on everyone's doors... Also laying flat on my back on the floor was NOT the way to stop it from spinnnig.

Yeah, I really hate it when you can make it spin to the left, or you can make it spin to the right, but you just can't make it stop spinning. Also I hate it when you wake up and someone is slapping you and yelling Breath! You're turning blue! Yeah, I really hate it when that happens. That is definitely crossing the line.

Who Hooo!!! I think we've found true perpetual motion!!!

Reminds me of when I make a quick mobile out of coat hangers and whatever I could find around the room that was shiny; not that I was into making hanging decor. There was a guy passed out on the floor with his eyes half open. I was sober and affraid to leave him there to puke on his own face... Anyways I was inspired to see if his brain was still accepting signals from the half open eyes, hence the slowly spinning mobile I hung over his head from a string form bunk to bunk. Hee Hee.

I'm working on it.

Do you want to be in the dark or the sunny part?

Some fine Belgian chocolates would do nicely as well. Very nicely.

-e

If I look to the energy content, they might be used as an altenative fuel.

My dog loves them, in a treadmill, driving a generator, ... Shame of the exhaust, it would heve been a great solution.

(Psst, Gwen? Chocolate is poisonous to dogs. Honest!)

-e

It turns out that, for dogs, a chemical in chocolate called theobromine is the source of the problem. Theobromine is similar to caffeine. Theobromine is toxic to a dog when it ingests between 100 and 150 milligrams per kilogram of body weight.

Different types of chocolate contain different amounts of theobromine: It would take 20 ounces of milk chocolate to kill a 20-pound dog, but only 2 ounces of baker's chocolate or 6 ounces of semisweet chocolate. It is not that hard for a dog to get into something like an Easter basket full of chocolate eggs and bunnies and gobble up a pound or two of chocolate. If the dog is small, that could be deadly.

-e

Never to late to learn. I tought that it was the sugar.

You see, no free lunch (and if my wife finds out that the experiment killed the dog, i'll have other problems too)

I find it so strange that the conservation of energy it is not obvious for everyone.

Is a technical sientists brain so different in comparison with other siences?

Perhaps we should try to find a different explication, in teachning kids it helps.

Gwen asks: "Is a technical sientists brain so different in comparison with other siences?"

For a Nobel-Prize-winning physicist's take on your question, read The God Particle, by Leon Lederman - especially the Veblenesque section entitled "The Leisure of the Theory Class."

Gwen worries: "...(and if my wife finds out that the experiment killed the dog, i'll have other problems too)"

Just explain to her that the dog ran out of gas, and then offer her some conciliatory chocolate.

-e

The Moon is slowing it down, if that helps.

I've often thought that Ben Franklin's idea could be a way to derive "free" electricity.

The concept was simple, the air has electrons everywhere. If you make a highly conductive "kite & tether" and attach it to say a massive underground capacitive

plate structure, you should be able to "trickle-charge" the plates and store electricity. And once in a while, you might get lucky with a lightning strike!

This is one way to take advantage of the Earth's perpetual motion, as the air/winds would keep the kites up and guarantee "friction" over their surfaces.

Just a thought....

wndrtch

Jeeze. Imagine that.

Enough kites and we could stop the Earth's "perpetual" rotation.

-e

Imagination can easily pass the speed of light. why not harvest time in reverse?

That sound like an "inventor" down here in Belgium who invented the free energy for everyone solution: he would make a big circle of copper around the world and let it fly round like the satellites do. The earth magnetic field would then generate a potential over the conductor and oops: free energy.

The only problem was how to get that energy down to earth: that needed to be solved by someone else.

Have you been reading Ringworld again?

-e

"The only problem was how to get that energy down to earth:"

That's easy, everybody knows you would use slip rings and brushes. Duh.

Finally, a post with some bearing on the topic.

-e

This is not perpetual motion, the earths rotation is slowing, the temperature of the core is cooling, and even the sun is decaying. Extracting more energy from these processes, particularly as inefficiently as we do, will only accelerate these changes in our environment. There is no free energy, it must be extracted from somewhere.

If only someone made a Mr. Fusion powered by Perpetual-Motion BS. Oh happy day!

-e

The only real thing out there is perpetual confusion! Oh well I don't think I will live to see our sun die out. Will you? But do all these wind farms slow the earth, by their drag effect? The more power we take from the system will it all end in tears? Perhaps the nuclear option may yet save our bacon or at least enable us to cook the rashers. As for hydrogen generation it could all explode in our faces yet. Sailing ships may well make a come back before we all die out. The only thing is will we still know how to use the wind, and can we build one million to sail ships, would they ever get from A to B? Who knows do you even care? What if global warming turns to global freezing?

Just thought I'd stick me two penny worth in.

question...it isn't the rotation of the earth that makes the air move...it's the gradients in solar heating. Isn't it? The jetstream is moving in the same direction as the earth but rotating FASTER than the earth is...perhaps someone out there has an explanation of how the jetstream keeps up it's energy? [tangent]Will enough planes taking advantage of it while flying downstream and then not contributing by flying upstream eventually cause the jetstream to stop? Surely it's fueled by solar energy but HOW does such a large cohesive stream of air keep from breaking up? This is a topic I'd like to read more on. [/tangent]

Look up "jet stream" in Wikipedia - there's a very good article there, explaining it very well.

dkwarner had good advise about using Wikipedia. They explain the echelons of winds including the Coriolis effect caused by the earths rotation, prevailing winds and doldrums relative to global position and what I'll fearlessly call local winds caused by changes in temperature, pressure, elevation etc.

Even if the winds are caused by butterflies as was suggested they offer two or more sources of energy.

1. Could I call it the pump effect when air mass ingests vapor through evaporation. Then having raised the vapor state of water high dump it back to the earth as rain or water in the liquid state and snow in the solid state. I know there is a number for the mass or weight of the H₂O lifted a few thousand feet and the potential energy that presents is enormous.

2. Air currents travel up slope in the mourning as the sun warms the topography and the reverse is true in the evening. A river gorge like the Columbia cut a path for winds through the Cascade mountains. Combined other factors including temperature difference over land and water the Dalles, OR is a sail boarders delight.

What if we built a great catch basin to hold rain water and used direct drive wind power to pump water up into the reservoir as well. Running water from the reservoir (which is almost free) down through turbines on demand might provide significant energy without chopping up the salmon trying to swim up river past damns to spawn.

You write:

What if we built a great catch basin to hold rain water and used direct drive wind power to pump water up into the reservoir as well. Running water from the reservoir (which is almost free) down through turbines on demand might provide significant energy without chopping up the salmon trying to swim up river past damns to spawn.

In the US, we did something like this. We built the Great Lakes (I think they were created under Truman). They are huge catch basins, and they were designed to be above sea level so that when the water flows downhill, we can generate electricity with turbines.

As far as I know, the Columbia river Gorge was originally cut by the French (I think it may have been part of the whole northwest passage idea) with the idea of selling stuff to windsurfers in the future. Bic and Mistral pretty much owned the industry for a while, proving my contention. Even now, the fastest windsurfers (the people, that is) are French.

Mr. Savant

You did a tremendous job with the great lakes. They were already there when I was born next door to Hiawatha, "On the shores of Gitchi Gumi, by the shining great sea water." You must be one venerable citizen or started digging at a very tender age. I don't like to nit pick but could you jack those great lakes up about 1000 feet so we could really have some fun?

We'll get started immediately. We should be able to recoup the cost by offering rafting trips on the St. Lawrence river!

http://www.fhc.co.uk/dinorwig.htm shows a system used as a peak-lopping device for the local grid. May be of interest? A visit to the facility certainly has a powerful impact on the senses.

Of course, one needs to know where Wales is...

Hi PW

Thank you for the link to dinorwig. Very interesting. Something similar but on a much smaller scale was being done in Colorado with water primarily from snow melt run off. The water was held in a reservoir and dumped though turbines into a lower reservoir to generate electricity. When electrical demand was minimal water was pumped back up to the higher resevoir.

Them Whales is migrating North along the Pacific coast of the US.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/table1_15_a.html

lists quite a few such plants in the USA. I know the Sacramento Municipal Utility District is building one (or about to) near Camino, CA.

This is used all over the world, our only Belgian waterfall is fake, the result of the deviation of a river to make such a system.

The system in Wales is indeed huge and most probably the biggest in the world.

Capital

"How many times have you been told that perpetual motion cannot be achieved?"

Perpetual Motion as usually discussed is a PM device that once started continues to run on forever without any outside influence. Such a machine has never been demonstrated to exist or exhibited for critical examination by anyone.

Perhaps you would be interested in the invention of a man, now deceased, who proposed a huge wind tunnel from the NW corner of OR moutains to desert location on NE-CO border to harness the difference in atmospheric pressure. The flow of the high speed high volume of air to drive a huge electrical generator to supply a gazillion or so homes and factories.

You can download his patent with complete details at:
<http://www.coldenergy.com/technology.htm>

You may wish to think of the earth or the solar system or some part(s) of the universe as a PM machine but to date it seems it is all running down and will eventual come to a final uniform low temperature near absolute zero and all will be dead, dead, DEAD!

it seems to me that there will be a parallel open air path from the two points versus the conduit path and thus flows the wind.

Using a hydraulic analog of a waterfall with water falling and me having a pipe with a turbine on the end between the same two points, I can see a workable mechanism, in theory, but I suspect internal pipe friction versus the natural equalization of the differential in pressure might mean there is no large amount of energy available.

One good test point would be the areas where they get air falling down a long gradual slope out west that increases the temperature by 40-50 degress F in mid winter from time to time. They call them Chinooks out west. Still, I would think a potential investor would like to see a rigorous mathematecal analysis of this first.

Chinook: originating with moist wind from the Pacific Ocean, that releases its moisture as precipitation over the Rocky Mountains, the air is then compressed and heated as it descends over the frozen plains of the northwestern United States and Canada, often removing several inches of snow by sublimation in a matter of hours, thus leading some people to refer to them as "snow eaters" [Sometimes, the wet southwest winds that blow along the coasts of Oregon and Washington are also referred to as chinooks because of their warmth.]

When a fossil or other discovery is carbon dated to be umpteen thousand years old it is obvious that the concept of perpetual motion with the most rigorous definition was concocted by modern man after he learned to cipher a few days late. Whether this globe spins merrily on forever, blows apart, is consumed by fire, or freezes out life as we know it, it has been perpetual enough for me. I would be glad to sell you an insurance policy that would guarantee a perpetual global rotation for your life span or the next 10,000 years, which ever comes first.

"Whether this globe spins merrily on forever, blows apart, is consumed by fire, or freezes out life as we know it, it has been perpetual enough for me."

What ever turns your crank and suits you, is your choice. I'll not impose my criteria on you and vice versa.

Enjoy your world!

You may wish to think of the earth or the solar system or some part(s) of the universe as a PM machine but to date it seems it is all running down and will eventual come to a final uniform low temperature near absolute zero and all will be dead, dead, DEAD!

True but how many times has this cycle repeated. Energy can neither be created or destroyed, only persuaded to change states.

i agree with you. Some of the comments i have read appear to be from UNEDUICATED (overunity wise) people. people have been running cars, trucks and other transports at speeds exceeding 90 miles per hour for the last 100+ years. one motor i read about used a standing pool (less than 500 gal.) of regular drinking water to produce a sustained 350+ usable hourse power for an extended length of time

I am sorry but your definition of perpetual motion is faulty. Perpetual motion runs FOREVER, not until life blinks out on this planet. An engine running many thousands or billions of years that someday stops is still not perpetual motion.

There are only two types of "perpetual motion machines", both of them only theoretical and neither of them physically possible. The first is one that constantly runs without slowing down, however there is no way to extract energy from this type of machine without causing it to break down or stop. The second is a machine that only gains energy from the time it starts and never loses it, perpetually moving faster and faster until it (in theory) explodes or becomes light or some such nonsense. In this type of machine, if you did not have some method to extract energy from it, this would be the inevitable conclusion.

The sun's energy comes from the fusion of a limited amount of hydrogen and helium. Gravity can only be harnessed as long as something is falling (everything that falls eventually stops). And if attempt to use the force of gravity to bring another object of equal mass back to the top of the chute, you cannot withdraw any energy from the system because all of the energy is spent trying to get the objects back to the top to reset the system.

Your statement is flawed. You cannot have something "damn near" perpetual motion. It either is or it isn't. If it isn't, then it's not perpetual motion.

neat!!!...,besides any force that could cause big blue to slow down/stop has to be external to it, i.e.: the sun's gravitional pull changes, cosmic radiation/wind or you could tie a giant rocket at a tangent to earth's surface in the opposite direction of its rotation - one big rocket this!!!

for earth's own gravity force to change, its inherent momentum has to change.

This old world could use more humor. We all know that perpetual motion and the lack there of has been defined in every thing from the fifth grade reader to the Rolling Stones. The poor guy who payed hard cash for a cemetery plot with perpetual care probably didn't suffer knowing that there is no perpetual anything. When Ogg and Gar squatted by the camp fire they probably didn't declare that when this globe stopped spinning they would be in deep dinosaur dodo.

That being said there is the possibility of unlimited energy as "long as rivers flow and grasses grow". When the lights go out and we all turn stone cold those of us left until then will know the truth. There is no perpetual motion but if we had stored copious energy in a batteries we could still keep our electric socks working.

Consumptive equalibrium...100% conversion! Reminds of a story about a farmer who noticed that his horse died when he finally broke him from eating.

The only constant is energy itself. Energy cannot consume itself neither can it convert itself. In a biological molecular environment energy conversion requires consumption.

Reduction of consumption approaches equalibrium by leaving energy in its original state. Since energy resides in its own perfect state work will convert its form through consumption altering its state to continue the existence of molecular biological matter.

Everyone is a little too hung up on the perpetualness of perpetual motion. What's so wrong with Damn-near perpetual motion anyway, as long as it long as it Gitz er dun? But if you really want one you can extract energy from, I'm thinking, gravity screw pneumatic drive. That way you get your electricity and pneumatic pressure (the way back up) from clean free gravity. But that's a few googles away 'cause I just made that up.

Besides we all know the only way to go is to give in to my totalitarian rule; Scrap all the cities of the world and begin anew in Antarica with the first of seven magnificent cities based on Japanese ergonomic technology, powered by the giant wind tunnel (for the bulk of services) and the Ben Franklin kite-like satellites in the particulary strong magnetic polar fields - the energy delivered via Tesla like means - (to support our small wireless electronics). Don't worry... We'll get used to the cancer.

Now is the time while our population is low, to sculpt the world into something truly great. If we're gonna ruin it we might as well do it in a good, meaningful and enduring way. But whatever. Go ahead and laugh. Call it crazy.

Everyone knows were just going to move into space....

:P -Xazra-

......sounds like fun to me!!! so where and when do we start?

The use of Perpetual Motion to describe the operation of the Globe of the World, the Solar System, the Galaxy, or the Universe as a whole is totally erroneous and misleading. As time goes by the temperature of the universe as a whole is headed downward toward a uniform lower temperature and the entropy increasing till both reach their respective equilibrium points.

The earth, solar system, galaxy, and/or universe may operate on something approaching the concept of PM but it doesn't.

I would expect postings such as this would be explicitly correct, not almost so.

Hi SS

The term Perpetual Motion was used to catch attention.

Now that we have your attention please focus on Unlimited Energy to make our world a better, comfy, cozy place. It would be sad to waste what we have now because of an unsubstantiated theory (Theorem) that it will all end some day. If we run out of almost perpetual motion quickly I won't have to mow the lawn again this weekend. If it takes a long time we should innovate in the mean time.

Join the free energy, zero point energy, over unity, etc. types and get all the energy you can generate to chase rainbows.

Get real!

Mr. Stirling Stan

You probably know that mechanisms to harness ocean waves have recently been installed as tentative power generators. I think the number is 4% of the worlds electrical energy is currently produced by wind generators. It is here-say that an innovator demonstrated electrical generators actuated when vehicles, cars and trucks, drive over flexible pads. Before internal combustion engines were readily available great ships sailed the seas. Mother nature has a host of forces that have and can be converted to usable energy with imagination, inspiration, innovation and motivation. We seem somewhat stuck on the consumption of fossil fuel and somewhat inept at using nuclear energy. I think we are smarter than that.

I don't recall whether it was in this forum that I responded to it once before, but those flexible pads MUST remove (steal?) more energy from the vehicles than they convert to run the lights or whatever.

It is certainly noble and reasonable to convert as many natural sources of energy as we can to our use, but I believe it is misleading at the least, to refer to these sources as limitless or perpetual.

DK

Let's put the auto-flex generators prior to traffic control, speed reduction and stop signs and let the momentum we usurp be part of the necessity to reduce mass in motion anyway.

I am impressed with the number of respondents who take a hard bitten view of specifically incorrect but attention gathering words. Kids used to say, you get the idea.

Would you hazard a guess just for the sake of speculation as to how much force or potential energy the natural eco systems of our world produce vs total specific energy used by mankind. For example would you think that the fuel, electricity etc. that we consume globally is half the natural energy or 3 times etc. Some may criticise your answer. I will certainly not.

It may drive the critics crazy but my guess would be that the peoples of this convert and use less than 1/10,000 th of the amount of natural energy that is not being utilized as in wind, waves, tide, rivers, solar, geothermal and alternative harvesting of the evaporation/precipitation cycle, etc.

If we have 1,000 to 10,000 times more energy potential than the amount we use "limitless" is arguably a reasonable term excess would be more precise.

Modern man as a thinking being has only existed a few thousand years. This world has existed long before and probably will endure long after. How about "Mega millenniums of excess potential energy." for those who start thinking.