I got lost, water is 73' down or 1455' feet down. Trying to pressurize the water table to 'push' the water up the pipe??? I'll stick with an electric pump at the bottom of the well.

Water is 73 feet down from the surface or top of the well. That surface at the top of the well is at 1382 feet above sea level (elevation). Subtract 73 from 1382 to get 1309, the elevation of the water. With that elevation a natural siphon can lift (guessing) 25 to 30 feet. An alternate energy source must be used to lift the water 45 feet if a siphon (energy free) is used to lift the rest.

The possibly impossible alternative would be to bore horizontally into the well casing somewhere below the surface. To use an energy free siphon for approximately 25 feet of lift the bored side tap could be as shallow as 50 feet from the top or surface.

Obviously it may be possible to bore below 1309 feet in elevation and let water run. It may be an improbable task to bore horizontally and the deeper the bore the less likely it would be feasible.

The electric pump with a squirrel cage driven generator would be good until the squirrels went on strike.

Why not use compressed air bouyancy to raise the water?

Pressurizing the well will certainly displace water, but where to?? Up the pipe or back into the water table where it came from in the first place? The later, I think!

Good calculation in US unit system.

I understood it was your project that worked for your needs. What about above ground piping system pressure you've got? Destination of water: pound, greenhouse, residential, commercial, industrial? Got how many gpm: max, avg, minimum?

I admire practical solution and its description (needed maybe a diagram/sketch)

Hi Kceum

You are right and I stand corrected. The up feed tube would have to be longer than 131 feet (73' + 58') for the end to stay submerged when the compressed air depressed the water level within the casing.

With an up-flow tube of 140 feet and 25 psig plus 14 psia created by the siphon effect we would get water from the well but not with higher pressure alone.

I think you said earlier that unless the casing were longer, 165 feet (73' + 92') minimum @ 40 psig a higher pressure would not be feasible because the water would be driven out of the 138 foot casing and the air would bubble into the unconfined pool or aquifer.

Thank you for setting me straight. Tom

I was in the 'siphoning water 35' post and posted maybe halfway through the thread about pressurizing the casing and then Tom Kreher came along and reiterated. It kind of fell on deaf ears in that thread but I still think it's the easiest way to get water out of that well assuming there is some way to restrict backflow . As Tom Kreher mentioned, while the water level might sink below the bottom of the casing, it will not do so instantaneously and so, depending on the porosity of the soil, you could get alot of water for a short period of time. There is a patent on a device for oil wells that keeps pressurized fluid from backflowing into the reservoir and I think it would be easy to put a one way valve at the bottom of a water well as well. Same warning as the one I put in other post. Don't stand over the cap. I figured around thirteen hundred pounds of pressure at 45/in^2 on the 6 inch cap. If it comes off, yeooooooooh.

Thank you. I also believe it is the easiest with the least energy required. I liked your anti back flow device. If the pressure were exhausted temporarily the casing would refill to the 73 feet below the surface quickly. With an oscillating valve on the pressure approximately 7 1/2 gallons could be pumped in spurts similar to a mechanical ratchet. An anti-backflow (Check Valve) secured deep in the casing or suspended deep into the casing from the top by a cable would allow higher pressure to be used for more gusto. Flexible nylon tubing is rare under 5/8" O.D. but rubber hose of 1 or 2" I.D. might facilitate flow. The check valve would be subject to the same force as the top cap. A cable to an eye-bolt in the middle maybe. Thanks again.

Hi to all you WELL WISHERS.

The original question was: Can you siphon water out of a 70+ ft well?

The answer to that is NO.

At that altitude the maximum depth would be less than 30 ft. (friction, vapour pressure etc) And it has been done.

Water can be pumped from 70+ ft and the action can be siphon assisted.

The type and size of pump must be selected taking all requirements into consideration.

An air lift pump as mentioned above is also a possibility. The principle of operation is that stream of air is blown trough a venturi and water is sucked into the system and eventually separated at the top.

It may however not be possible to use the siphon effect because the air will cause an airlock in the delivery pipe.

An air pressure operated (or sound) diaphragm pump may be used.

Hi Hendrik

Wishing Wellto you.

No the answer is YES.

To siphon water from this well at this altitude it is necessary to raise the water level to less than 30 feet from the top of the well.

This can be done with compressed air at 25 psig with a sealed cap on the top of the well casing that has a thru port for a pick-up tube or pipe extended approximately 140 down from the top of the well. Compressed air at 25 psig will depress the water in the casing approximately 58 feet. As long as the water level remains within the casing the water in the aquifer provides a de-facto cap. The pressure from the compressed air will transmit to the water in the aquifer and push the water in the pick-up tube to 15 feet of the top (73-58 = 15). From that position it may be siphoned and the aquifer will keep replenish what is drawn away.

No compressed air is consumed once the water is pressurized (accept for leaks) and in theory the downward pressure that lifts water to siphon distance could be a mechanical plunger with equivalent force to the compressed air times the area if the plunger makes a dynamic seal to the casing and has the pick up tube port thru it.

So with both a compressed gas and a mechanical solution to raise the water level the answer is yes, it can be siphoned.

This is a minimal energy solution and I feel it is superior to a pump barring requirements that were not expressed.

Hi Tom, (and all)

Can I digress just a little. You obviously understand these things!

I have a well with the water level about 6ft below grade and the well is 30 foot deep.

I want to siphon it to a level lower than this (by about 50 feet) but I have to go over a small hill. The elevation is around 400 feet .

The siphon comes out of the well and down a slope for about 250 feet length and 50 foot drop and then it joins up with a T to a spring line which is not a sealed line. ie it is free flowing water.

I can start the siphon at about 5 gals per minute but in a matter of 2-3 hours it drops to 1 gal per min then stops a couple of hours later. The water level maintains at 6 feet below ground level.

The water then has to travel about 2500 feet to my pond.

1. Does the whole length of pipeline have to maintain the "Vacuum" ie does the spring line join, break the siphon effect.

2. I also have an air gap in the spring line about half way to the pond, to avoid an airbuild up, would this affect the siphon. In other words if it siphons for the first 250 feet and can free flow from there on, should that work.

3. Does the length of the line have an effect

What I am trying to avoid is running electrical the 2500 feet to the well head (big bucks!)

Paul

Hi Paul

You wrote: I want to siphon it to a level lower than this (by about 50 feet) but I have to go over a small hill. The elevation is around 400 feet .

Could we clear this one up? Is the top of the hill 400 feet above the well water or is your well at approximately 400 feet elevation? If you wish to siphon over a hill that is more than 33 ft higher than the well water that is not supposed to work.

Ans to #1

With your pick up tube submerged in the well water you might siphon water from the well to a location that is lower than the surface of the water in the well. It sounds like your siphon action stops at the Tee in your Spring line or the Air Gap.

Ans to #2

In theory you should siphon to either the Tee or the air gap and free flow from there if it is all down hill.

Ans to #3

There is line loss (pressure drop) due to friction and in some cases turbulence. I don't think that your 250 foot run has enough pressure drop to stop flow.

I am curious to know what would happen if you disconnect at the Tee and start the siphon action. Obviously water should run out of the line from the well but would it keep running in this configuration without the Tee or air gap? In theory it would but you already have fact humbling theory.

Ans to Another Question (next post)

The height limitation for a siphon is caused by the atmospheric pressure so this is greatest at sea level and is reduced with elevation. The atmospheric pressure also varies with the local weather. Many over simplify by using 14.7 psia = (29.92 In Hg) = 33.9 feet of H₂0 which is a standard condition only at sea level and only on an ideal day. In Denver, at 5,000 feet, the standard pressure would be approximately 12.2 psia = 24.84 In Hg = 28.1 feet H₂0. If the weather was foul and the barometric pressure low the ability to siphon would be less than 28 feet that day. Since there is no perfect vacuum don't count on using more than 95% of the theoretical lift.

As long as your siphon tube is continuously below the surface of the water the distance that it is submerged is not a factor. The lift height and limitation of approximately 30 feet is from the surface of the water.

I can only think of two possibilities that would cause your siphon action to stop.

1. Flowing water may stop or slow noticeably, especially warm water, if you turn on the water in the basin and step away to get your razor. When you come back the water may be down to a trickle for no apparent reason. The scientific name for this condition is Dammit!
2. Very tiny leaks in fittings or plumbing may gradually allow the vacuum to draw atmospheric air gradually, slowing the flow until it breaks the siphon.

Hope you never have sour grapes, Tom

Thanks Tom this is very helpful. I must study this as well as the other comments.

I appreciate you as a resource.

Paul

Folks,

I have another question. There is this discussion about not being able to siphon more than about 33 feet.

Is that the depth of the well pipe, or the level of the water. In other words if the water level is 6 feet below grade and the siphon pipe goes down to 35 feet below grade will that siphon or does the water line need to be raised nearer the surface so the bopttom of the siphon pip[e is less than 30 feet.??

Thanks guys

Paul

YES and NO

You cannot siphon at 70 ft but can siphon if the level is reduced to ±30 ft.

With the dolomite aquifer known to me you will need a biiiig power supply to raise the level by 1mm. (suburb sized cavities and springs 15 km away 500 m lower- water supply of part of town)

Unless you pressurize a closed system it should not work. The best solution remains the pumping of the water using the cheapest / efficient pump.

Has it occurred to you that to pressurize the well would eventually decrease the level in the well?

The 6' water level:

The length of the pipe is immaterial (unless friction becomes a factor)

All you need is a drop to below the water level on the outlet side (to account for losses).

Siphon over hill:

The highest point in the system (in this case the hill) must be less than ±30 ft above the water level.

The effective delivery point must be bellow the water level in the well.

The side inlet seems to be submerged and may work. the water may be sucked into the pipe. vortex formation should be avoided.

reduction in flow:

Air entering the system will attempt to move to the highest point in the system but would also be driven down by the flow. thereby forming an friction generating obstruction (air lock) in the pipe.

The solution is to prevent any air from entering the system.

Use of compressor:

Energy is used to compress air and therefore it is just another type of pump.

Thanks Hendrick,

I'll review this

Here's a (somewhat) related question. If I'm siphoning from a well with water level at 15' below surface (assume sea level) to a storage tank 100' feet below, can I close a valve at the storage tank to stop the flow while still maintaining the siphon? Or, will the siphon break requiring me to head up the mountain to re-prime it next time I want it to flow? If I can't stop the flow, can I reduce it with a valve? We're entering drought conditions and I don't want to allow the tank to overflow, on the other hand, I'd like to use a float valve on the tank to maintain it full for fire protection.

In my tests, the siphon breaks shortly after I start restricting the flow. I'm guessing that air in the water begins collecting at the high point when the water velocity isn't sufficient to carry the air bubbles over the peak. Is there a fix for this? Thanks for any ideas. -Ken in Los Olivos, CA

Before we began to stomp them grapes there were some sour grapes about the original well scenario. I have prepared a cartoon to help illustrate but didn't get all the labels on. From the top down we have Earth-Air-Water. The right hand casing is natural with the water 73 feet below surface. The left hand casing is caped air tight with 25 psig of compressed air pressure. The water in the casing is depressed approx' 58' and the equal and opposite raised the water level in the pick-up tube to within about 15' of the surface. With constant pressure the level in the pick up tube will stay high until next Saturday when we can find a long enough hose. You know how to fill a hose and start a siphon. With one end of the hose on the well and the other down at the 1240 foot level we should have a merry little siphon until air gets in or the well runs dry. With diagram this will be twice my normal rate

Cannot see the picture?

OH WELL

With a little help from Chris and all you should find a cartoon that shows the theory of what happens when compressed air is applied to a contained liquid.

As long as the greater column of water remains within the casing the compressed air should not bubble away into the aquifer. With the water column in the pick up tube withing 15 feet of the surface adding the siphon affect could lift the water above the surface and let it flow to the lower, 1240', elevation. The aquifer would keep the pick up tube full to the level shown as long as the 25 psig of compressed air is forcing downward. Pardon the quick scribbles.

Dear friend

I need ur openion and comments please

First up all thanks to all for you valuable comments and spent time to answer my thread, now I narrating my bore well details and my site condition once again with drawing.

I have power supply for my open well near around 107 meters (350 feet) away from my bore well. So not able draw the supply from my open well to bore well because, I was failure to get permission from government ( Electricity board).

In this juncture I have to go to buy a portable generator or use renewable source of energy like (solar, wind) but both is not suitable for my site condition. So kindly send your valuable suggestion to use siphon principle as much as possible.

Pl see the below picture of bore well and open well drawing will help to understand clearly and will help to send ur suggestion well.

My bore well Dia is 150mm (6 inch) and depth is 198 mtrs (650') from surface level and bore well drilling people confirmed that 40mm dia free flow water will get it in this bore well by help of pump.

While drilling we got hard rock at 8.8 mtrs (29' feet) from the surface level so we were not able to insert casing pipe (p.v.c) further more. And we got

water stream at 67 mtrs (220' feet)

and 128 mtrs (420' feet) respectively.

But we drilled up to 198 mtrs (650' feet)

for reserving the water in summer (some time our water level will goes below 121 mtrs -400' feet from surface level).

I hope, I provided all details

Please guide me to get water with out use of power (siphon principle) and utilize of open well if need, I can arrange air for pressurizing the well up to 60 psi

Kindly send ur valuable suggestion to over come my threads and also provide details about pipe sizes if possible to get water with out our power.

Regards

v.sidharaj

I have a mock up of this in a shorter low pressure version. We did lift water but with some surprizes. More work in progress.

I am building a house and am going to install a geothermal heat pump that requires 6-8 gmp. I would like to siphon water from a well into the heat pump and into a return well. Is that possible without the aid of a pump or compressed air?

Without more detail I will say Probably Not. For the siphon effect the outlet should be lower than the inlet with tube or pipe that is totally enclosed. If you are working from a common water table and the surface of the water in the well(s) is the same you don't have a delta P.

To siphon from the well to your heat pump the heat pump should be located lower than the surface of the water in the well. Tom