Not to mention that our 2 & 4 cycle engines & carbs need this even more...

I have no issues with ethanol being added to fuels. Its been a common item where I live for as long as I can remember. I use it in all of my equipment and vehicles including the the 2 cycle and carburetted engines with no problems plus I like that its now being sold on a wider scale which is helping push the value of farmers crops up!

We also have E20 as a common fuel choice along with seasonal blends of E30 to E50 plus the E85 all as fuel choices here which according to the fuel stations who carry it it sells quite well so apparently more people than just myself are buying it and using it with good results!

Or maybe its just the farmers buying it since it helps push their corn crop prices up!

I have a big issue with ethanol being added to gasoline. It has raised the price of everything that you eat to survive. A lot of people cannot afford to eat right cause they cannot afford the cost of sky rocketing food prices. Many farmers who grow beef only cannot afford to buy corn grain, or chops to feed their cattle, hogs, or chickens. I have read reports in the past about what ethanol does to the sealing gaskets on engines. Nothing like driving to work every day while your engine fluids are hemmorahging all over the highway. They are costly to replace, and repair those gaskets. We have a ethanol plant here in Missouri, and the last I heard it was shut down. It lowered the water table around here so much some wells were going dry, while others developed terrible odors. A lot of people rely on their wells for everyday living. Fortunately I live way out in the woods, away from anything modern. The nearest town is 30 miles one way, and thats too close for me. I also live pretty much off the land with plenty of turkey and deer meat, and the streams are full of trout and other fish. A lot of people are not as fortunate as I, and the cost of grain to other countries is way up. They are starving around the world cause we have used our corn for fuel instead of food. Also, the mileage is less with ethanol, which is 1940`s technology. During the war, you would take off with water injection to your engine. This made it have more power to get airborn off the deck with a bomb load. Ethanol is 1940 mojo, mixed into your driving gas. Their is nothing new about ethanol except the name. It was started to raise the price of food, and everything else in general to break this country financially. Want to lower the price of oil?? We sell over seas to the Arabs grain for 7.00 a bushell. They need this grain, or they will starve. Tell them you want 100.00 a bushell, oil will bottom out the next day. Have a great day, I will.

I'm not sure what this is about, but here are some links to data.

Saudi Arabia is 19 on wheat import tonnage.

Exports Saudi is 105 at 0

There is a whole lot of inconstancies and flat out errors in your understandings and reasonings.

Here is one of more recent threads about biofuels and the related usage of corn. http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/16092

Also starving people around the world is a poor excuse. Long before ethanol started getting used in vehicles people where starving and long after ethanol is gone people will still be starving. The reason they starve is related to their politics and poor utilization of their own natural resources not our use of corn.

Our country grows it so we can do what ever we want with it first and as the sellers in a capitalistic market and economic system the person willing to pay the most gets the most.

While I respect your opinion, and related knowledge of the marketing of various food products, unless your a farmer trying to make it in the States, you cannot possibly know or understand how this has shut down many farms. Out of business cause they could not get the necessary govt. grants, cause they are not rich and big donaters to various govt. parties. Each farmer that goes under, the cost of food goes up another notch, cause less are contributing. Big farms are then snatched up, made into housing tracts for new homes that no one can afford. One little thing sets off another Ethanol is a big loser, and has cost this country untold billions, and destroyed many lives. A good rule of thumb is, if it has to be subsidised, it ain`t good. If it stands on its own merit, and you can profit from it, it probably has a place in the world market. Ethanol would be a thing of the past if govt. did not subsidise it.

The neat thing around here is our farmers actually understand supply and demand and do not need to get government assistance through grants or there tax based handouts to survive.

Instead they plant and raise what sells for the highest prices and get paid well enough to live without assistance. Its basic economics really. That which is not worth the effort to do does not get done and that which is worth the effort does. That logic and mentality is also why my state is not struggling through this economic hardship like the other 48 are. We know how to mange our money and resources in order to turn a profit by our own actions and means which is why we have some 1.3+ billion surplus in our state bank despite our population of only 640,000 people!

Relating to ethanol production the byproduct from it is a high protein animal feed often referred to as distillers grains and it typically sells for less than regular feed corn does which is why our cattle producers tend to support the ethanol plants here.

I don't know how much of the rest of the country and world does things but from my stand point they are apparently poor, starving, heavily in debt, and out of work where as we are putting money in the bank, more than adequately supporting our selves and our needs and investing in our futures so that we do not end up like the rest of the country is right now.

Oh and if you need work feel free to come up to North Dakota. Between the oil fields, the farmers, and the rapidly growing energy production related infrastructure, there is far more work available than there is people to do it!

We do have ethanol free gasoline too if you insist but it costs a little more.

Sounds to me like the people in your state have got a good handle on what they are doing. If I was a younger man right now, I would be moving to your state.I`m retired, and a ham operator. My wife wanted all my junk out of HER house. So I built a really nice radio shack , and moved all my stuff into it. I got to thinking about alternative energy in case of a power failure. I purchased several deep cycle batteries, a 8,000 watt inverter, and a 8,000 watt step up transformer to give me 240 volts.Now, I`m good to go. But I cannot find anything. I still have stuff boxed up in my new attic, cause I don`t have room for it down here. I came across some really neat old vintage tube transmitters, and matching receivers. These are big and bulky, but oh so beautiful. Now I`m building a 16x20 room on to the radio shack to accomodate all this new gear. I guess you could say I`m communications poor. If I was younger, I would be moving to your state in a heart beat.I think you make some very good sense, and maybe others should follow your lead. Have a good day my friend. 73`s, KC0VEA

" I have read reports in the past about what ethanol does to the sealing gaskets on engines. Nothing like driving to work every day while your engine fluids are hemmorahging all over the highway. They are costly to replace, and repair those gaskets."

Not true. All modern vehicle engines since the mid 70's to early eighties where already being manufactured with ethanol compatible seals gaskets and related components. It was part of that changing from leaded gasoline to unleaded that pushed the gasket and seal compatibility along making it a moot point when ethanol started becoming more popular as a cheap octane booster.

I owned a 1989 Ford Taurus that was already factory built to be flex fuel compatible way back then. It stated it clearly right in the owners manual and in the service manual as well that its engine and computer where designed to be compatible with E85 way back when it was almost unheard of.

My (wifes!!!) VW Beetle is as crude and basic as they come, but wonderfully engineered. I use the most basic 20W50 oil (replaced every 3,000 miles) and even if the cylinder heads had not been converted for unleaded fuel, for the usage it gets, I would still have used unleaded fuel without additives. I don't know if we have ethanol in our 'petrol' over here, but I don't intend to worry about it. Not sure if I'd think differently if I had the dream Aston Martin DB5!

Ethanol helps reduce our dependence on foreign oil, but it's not that great for those of us with classic cars.

Wait a minute, my grandfather ran his Studebaker on 160-proof still-run ethanol when he ran loads of whiskey from Frankfort, KY to Chicago, IL back during Prohibition. He used it because the higher octane rating, along with the steam expansion factor (1700:1) gave him the power to outrun the "revenuers". But that was back when the driver had control over mixture, spark advance and the other parameters now fixed in the computer. And your "Classic" may not be of the same vintage as that old Studebaker.

I hope we keep a supply of fuel available for all of you who want it, but understand that it is going to get to the $5.00 - $10.00 range in the near future unless we get most of the country running on straight 130-proof denatured ethanol made from non-food feedstock. That will reduce demand back to what our domestic refining can keep up with, and we have more crude reserves that the Mid East. Too bad that nobody wants to live with the stench of a refinery up wind.

Note that the $7.00 per bushel corn reported recently is costing an ethanol producer about $2.50/gallon just for feedstock. There are several non-food low-input crops available that will yield 5,000 gallons of ethanol per acre per year, letting a farmer earn $2,000 gross return per acre while keeping the ethanol producer's cost at 40 cents per gallon for feedstock. Economics alone will keep corn in the food chain where it belongs.

"Note that the $7.00 per bushel corn reported recently is costing an ethanol producer about $2.50/gallon just for feedstock."

Well sort of yes but no not really. You left out the value of the other byproducts of distillation and their fair market prices.

Distillers grains are selling at around $195 a dry ton which represents about 37 bushels of corn by mass. That means that the value of distillers grain is roughly $5.27 a bushel.

The actual as sold value of a gallon of ethanol is estimated to be around $1.75 a gallon and one bushel of corn produces around 2.8 gallons of ethanol.

When its all added up that $7.00 a bushel corn produces roughly $4.90 in fuel and $5.27 in distillers grains which totals up to about $10.17 end value or a $3.17 profit per bushel. More so if you also factor in that the $1.75 selling price also has the operational and production costs and some profits already added to it.

Don't you just hate that the modern farmer has an educated background in mathematics, economics, earth sciences, chemistry, physics, and to top it all off isn't to shabby at generalized Internet searches relating to what they do for a living and how it all ties together?

No, I don`t hate it. I wish all farmers were as well educated as you. Then I would not have to sit around the pot bellied stove and listen to them wine. I think that I will bring some of your ideas and comments up next time around the fire. I will probably get shouted down, or thrown out, but they need to know they are in charge of their predicament. Not every thing can be done by the tax payer. Anybody that knows me , knows I hate lazy people, and winers. I did not get what I got by waiting on others, or hoping someone would come to my rescue. The entitlement rage in this country is way out of hand. Why work hard, or smart when someone else will give it to you.I guess that truly is the difference between those that have it, and those that wish they did. Granted, I am not , nor have I ever been a farmer, and I cannot speak for all of them around here, but it seems to me if I were a farmer, I would do a lot of things differently, but thats just me.Most of my adult life I worked in a supervisory position, cause I knew how to get things done with what I had to work with, and I was not afraid to try new methods. Thanks for a good and enlightning post my friend. Bob KC0VEA

One more thing I wanted to add. It really bugs me that I cannot figure this out to my satisfaction. If Ethanol is so good, and people in your state are profiting from it, as you seem to be, then why is is subsidised by the tax payer.?? If it as good as you say, it should carry itself on the world market without govt. intervention. ?? I know your going to tell me that people in your state are better educated in farming, supply and demand, and I truly believe that you are, but still that does not explain the govt. subsidy. If it has to be subsidised by the tax payer, then there is a problem with it.I must admit, you have made some very compelling statements in your post, and I find myself enlightened, and agreeing with you, but I`m not satisfied why we are subsidising it. You sir have really woke my mind up about Ethanol, that you truly have, but I don`t understand why it won`t carry itself on the market with out help from the tax payer. Since you seem to be a very intelligent man in this Ethanol debate, maybe you could enlighten me some more, as I`m sure you will. I really do admire your input, as you are doing it for real, not someone just guessing like I have been. Its apparent I do not have my facts straight. May you continue to make a profit every day, and thanks for your input. Bob KC0VEA

If Ethanol is so good, and people in your state are profiting from it, as you seem to be, then why is is subsidised by the tax payer.?? If it as good as you say, it should carry itself on the world market without govt. intervention.

Excellent point, sir. That argument was what finaiiy convinced our investors to come on board. Our business plan did not show any returns from subsidy payments, jusst a footnote that the subsidies for producing cellulose ethanol and the subsidies for blendng the fuel plus subsidies for installing ethanol compatible pumps would add to the net profits shown for as long as they lasted.

Our marketing strategy is to buy unblended gasoline to blend into E-85 sold into the local market and selling straight denatured 130-proof fuel for the turbne electric vehicles that are being developed at this time. If gasoline gets to $5.00 per gallon, it will add 75 cents per gallon (.15 X $5.00)to our cost of 68 cents for the ethanol content (80 X .85) gives us a cost of $1.43 per gallon to sell against a $5.00 market. Nice margin there.

By the way, there is only one station in the Willacy, Cameron, Hidalgo, Starr county area in South Texas where E-85 is currently sold. Chevrolet and Ford have been pushing their Flex-Fuel vehicles to get good compliance numbers, and there is a large number of those vehicles in our marketing area currently burning $3.35 gasoline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_vs._fuel

Yes, I want lower food prices !!

I also want lower food prices.!! I know the corn used for Ethanol is putting a terrible strain on the food industry, and as a result of this shortage, food prices have risen sharply. Anything associated with corn had risen dramatically..TCMTech made some fine points, and any one who is reasonable in their thinking would have to agree. I`m sure Ethanol is very profitable for some, but for the majority, we see it as a tax imposed on the tax payer. Not only do we pay more for food, fuel, and anything else associated with corn, but we have to subsidise it also. As a conservative person, even tho I agree with almost everything TCMTech has said, I still feel it is wrong.I think if individual states voted on it, it would fail miserably. Those states that want it, would probably do well under the supervision of North Dakota. It would appear that they have handled it right, and are making a profit, but the rest of the states are going broke. We as taxpayers pick up the tab for those making a profit, and those losing the family farm.I think all subsidies for Ethanol should be stopped, and individual states pick up the tab if they think they can profit from it. If not, then leave it to those that know what they are doing, and leave the rest of us out of it. Some things, if you don`t know what you are doing, is best left to those with a proven track record. It is apparent to me that most don`t have a clue. Have a good day folks, I will. Bob KC0VEA

Not all corn is created equal. Animal feed corn is not the same as human food corn. But more importantly here is how the corn numbers by percentage of use break down.

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According to the experts this is where the annual US corn crop goes:

The U.S. Department of Agriculture reports that of the 13 billion bushels of field corn produced last year, 36 percent was used as feed for domestic livestock (beef, pork, poultry), 31 percent was used for ethanol (also resulting in 1.5 billion bushels of distiller grains, a byproduct of ethanol production that is used as livestock feed), 14 percent was exported to other countries (Japan, Mexico, South Korea, Taiwan and Egypt are the top recipients), 9 percent was used for human food, seed and industrial use, and 11 percent was carried over as a surplus.

http://www.newgeography.com/content/001849-corn-crop-2010-food-fuel-feed-and-folk-art

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I will let you ponder on these numbers for a while if you think human usage and what's available/produced are honestly at odds with each other.

Thanks for those links my friend. really opened my eyes, and the article on corn was really a eye opener. I had no idea so many things are subsidised. I don`t understand why so many things are subsidised, clearly there are huge profits here. I guess it all comes back to polititians with their hands out. That has to be what this is all about, payoff after payoff. If they can grow all this stuff in Sweden, with out any subsidies, that tells me a lot of people here have their hands out, or in the cookie jar. This now boils down to goverment policing itself, and I don`t see that happening. No wonder food cost so much, everybody wants their cut.So, its not all Ethanols fault after all, its greedy people. I think that saying: The rich keep getting richer here applies.Well, tcmtech, again you have supprised this old man. My hat is off to you. You really do have a handle on this. They should stop all subsidies. If it can`t make it on its own in the market place, they should let it die. Boy, our taxes would almost come to a halt then. What on earth would people do with all that extra money. Again, tcmtech, thank you for your input. You have been a big help to this old man. Have a good day, Bob. KC0VEA

You are welcome and I hope I gave you some usable ammo to argue with when you meet others who don't understand the larger picture behind much of what goes on behind the scenes with the ethanol industry as a whole!

You surprised me in yourself as so few people who are against or uncertain about things ever are willing to at least listen and look at what the other side may have to say and show. I cant guarantee my figures and numbers are exact but then I don't mind if someone does their homework and finds thing are slightly different some place else either.

Really this was an easy one to do a basic show and tell with like when I do wind power and vehicle emissions related debates. I am for large scale wind farms and against vehicle emissions design and regulations, if you are wondering, and have a number of threads here that relate to my views, theory's, and hands on experiences about each of them.

However if you really want to see me get down and dirty you should see what I do when I go up against the deeply entrenched global warming/climate change nuts when I start poking holes in their "facts", numbers, and theories!

Thank you tcmtech for your comments, and your thoughtful input. I always try to search out the truth, even if I don`t want to accept it.I believe in hearing all sides if at all possible, then deduct through logical reasoning. I was against Ethanol from the start, but with your input, and the supplied links, I was able to read for myself, and come to the most logical conclusion. You sir have been right from the start.I was wrong in my thinking. Now when I sit around that pot bellied stove I can talk with others with certainty about this subject. I really appreciate you setting me in the right direction.I love a good debate, and I think we had one here.I have debated many people on many subjects, and a few lost it when they could not get me to come over to their side. A lot of people act like hurt children if you don`t agree with them. I have even lost a few friends cause I would not see things their way.What some people fail to realize is their arguments hold no water, or facts. Even when you show them in black and white as you did me, they still will not accept the truth.That is just human nature I guess, but I was fortunate that the good Lord blessed me with common sense. Not a lot of brain power, but good common sense has always worked for me. I also have the patience to hear someone out, even when I know they are wrong. Take care my friend, its been enlightning. Bob KC0VEA

Gasoline-free ethanol would be better..... (hic!)